Re: [tdf-discuss] drupal website

[Jonathan Aquilina]

No problem. looking forward to seeing the website :) and hatching up 
some more suggestions :)


On 11/26/10 8:45 AM, Michael Wheatland wrote:

On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Jonathan Aquilina
  wrote:

I also think Michael on the site i think we should offer multiple irc
channels which are language specific like ubuntu have.

for instance:

LibreOffice-fr for french etc.

Also another suggestion for the drupal site is to include access to the irc
using qwebirc which can be integrated into the site.

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I am sure this is possible. I will add it to the support requirements.
Thanks




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Re: [tdf-discuss] drupal website

[Michael Wheatland]

On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Jonathan Aquilina
 wrote:
> I also think Michael on the site i think we should offer multiple irc
> channels which are language specific like ubuntu have.
>
> for instance:
>
> LibreOffice-fr for french etc.
>
> Also another suggestion for the drupal site is to include access to the irc
> using qwebirc which can be integrated into the site.
>
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>

I am sure this is possible. I will add it to the support requirements.
Thanks

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[tdf-discuss] drupal website

[Jonathan Aquilina]

I also think Michael on the site i think we should offer multiple irc 
channels which are language specific like ubuntu have.


for instance:

LibreOffice-fr for french etc.

Also another suggestion for the drupal site is to include access to the 
irc using qwebirc which can be integrated into the site.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Request: Installation Instructions

[Michael Wheatland]

On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 4:21 PM, Jonathan Aquilina
 wrote:
> I am not trying to hijack this list, but wouldn't it be better to have a
> list for each language that we support, if we have users of particular
> languages they can use that list and not have to struggle to use English to
> get help?

We will be providing this functionality without having to sign up to a
mailing list in the Drupal website installation.

I will be presenting more information on this on Tuesday when I give a
summary of the Drupal project to date.

Another thing to note about this conversation is that there are a lot
of non-technical users and supporters of Open/LibreOffice out there
who are disengaged from the community. The new system will hopefully
allow more people to answer questions which will both reduce workload
on those who do get frustrated, and will bring community satisfaction
to those who help out. We just need a very easy mechanism to do this.
That is where Drupal comes in.

Michael Wheatland

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Request: Installation Instructions

[Jonathan Aquilina]

I am not trying to hijack this list, but wouldn't it be better to have a 
list for each language that we support, if we have users of particular 
languages they can use that list and not have to struggle to use English 
to get help?


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Request: Installation Instructions

[Robert Holtzman]

On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 05:50:39PM -0700, Craig A. Eddy wrote:
> Robert,
> 
> OK, I'll disagree with you.  But only to a degree.  I've worked the
> equivalent of an unpaid help desk on IRC (Ubuntu-Arizona LoCo). 

   .snip.
 
> 
> The system works, but, it DOES require patience and a good attitude to
> develop and manage.  As you can see, by comparing what you wrote with
> what's above, this does help the questioning individual to develop
> better skills in asking questions as well as providing him with the
> tools to provide answers himself/herself.

I'm not sure where, or even if, we diverge. The sense of what you wrote
pretty much mirrors my attitude except I'm a lot more blunt.

BTW, do you ever make the PLUG meetings? 

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Request: Installation Instructions

[Robert Holtzman]

On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 09:47:05PM -0500, Marc Paré wrote:
> Le 2010-11-25 18:54, Robert Holtzman a écrit :
> 
> >
> >One of the best ways to help them out would be to (gently, if that makes
> >you feel better) instruct them that it is customary to do a modicum of
> >research and try what's found before posting a question to a list. Also,
> >the post should include the standard information, s/w version, OS, etc.
> >If you have been participating in mail lists for very long, I'm
> >surprised you don't recommend this yourself.
> 
> This usually happens as a normal course of discussion with people
> who need help. The initial contact may not have enough information
> and we usually as for more. This is pretty standard. I believe it is
> asking too much from a new user to expect this knowledge prior to
> posting. Otherwise, if we had that attitude, we would constantly be
> berating these people and making them feel like our help list is not
> really helpful.

Could you point out where I said that noobs should posses the
information *prior* to their first post? Obviously, the instruction
would be given with the initial reply. 

> 
> 
> >
> >This might be true if the contributors to the list were paid employees
> >or if the posters were paying for help. In that case pandering to lazy
> >users with an infuriating sense of entitlement might be excused because
> >one does not piss off a paying customer. The truth is, however, that the
> >contributors are unpaid volunteers who hang here from altruistic
> >motives and as such are entitled to the respect of not having their time
> >wasted trying to guess the problem from incomplete questions.
> 
> How can you be altruistic and still feel like you are entitled to
> respect from others? These seem like opposing concepts. If you are
> altruistic, then you don't care if people do not give you your
> "entitled" respect. You actually have to earn respect. People do not
> owe you respect. Otherwise, IMO, this would not make you a good
> candidate for a help list.

Respect is earned by giving the time and contributing to the list.

> 
> >
> >This may have little to do with installation instructions but it
> >addresses the flavor I'm getting from some of the messages that *all*
> >users should be catered to and the clueless ones not be guided into the
> >right way to ask questions but be tolerated and spoon fed. I have
> >nothing against clueless users. That's how everyone starts out but, I
> >remember being guided (sometimes not so gently) in how to ask questions.
> >I'm not advocating *all* noobs become proficient sysadmins but running a
> >few simple searches and trying a few things is a far cry from that.
> 
> So if you were guided "sometimes not so gently" when you started off
> this makes it right to continue with this technique? Remember, that
> people are here for help and not to be judged. The just want help.
> Again, there are simply too many unknown variables that may make a
> person understand "accepted guidelines" for help lists. A helping
> and friendly help list always wins over a condescending and
> patronising help list.

First, there is nothing condescending or patronizing in what I
suggested.

Second, if you would bother to read my post you would see that I'm not
advocating insulting, belittling, or otherwise treating noobs harshly.
> 
> >
> >As far as I'm concerned there is too much of what I call the servant
> >mentality on this list. I don't find nearly as much on any of the other
> >lists I'm involved with, including the ubuntu-users and firefox-support
> >lists which get their share of newly minted users who barely know how to
> >turn their computer on.
> 
> Unfortunately, a help list/desk by definition are exactly that a
> service (from where the word "servant" comes from) to people who
> need help. If serving people in need frustrates particular people,
> then they should not be on the help list.

You really do have a problem getting the sense of what I wrote. You got
that last part backwards.

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"

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Re: [steering-discuss] moderators mailing list needed?

[Varun Mittal]

Florian, I agree with the idea. It could be like the one we had OOo.

This shall not cause confusion since only moderators are party to it and
they are quite used to much noisier disturbances ;)

My 2 cents :)


Thank You

Best Regards
Varun Mittal 

Google 
Facebook
   LinkedIn 
Twitter

"Uncertainty is the only Certainty of LIFE"



On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 5:20 AM, Christoph Noack wrote:

> Hi Flo!
>
> Am Donnerstag, den 25.11.2010, 11:47 +0100 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> > Hi,
> >
> > do we need a mailing list for the moderators of all lists? I want to
> > avoid too many lists, but right now, it would be extremely helpful to
> > reach all mailing list reponsible people with one e-mail, so I'm
> > thinking about such a list...
>
> Mmh, I don't think that an somehow "internally" used mailing list does
> cause any confusion. One question: Do you intend to also add the "server
> admins", maybe even the "mirror people"? So we might end up in some kind
> of "infrastructure" mailing list.
>
> Well, I'm no expert here ... but always there to throw in ideas ;-)
>
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>
>
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[tdf-discuss] Re: A better idea for a download package.

[Marc Paré]

Le 2010-11-25 21:38, Craig A. Eddy a écrit :



Marc,

May I suggest that, in addition to such a link being in the
installation, itself, that it also be available under "Help" or some
such for those who don't want it immediately, but might want it later
on?  It would simply be a minor additional courtesy for those who wanted
to see what the software could do on its own before adding to it.

Craig
Tyche



Hi Craig:

Absolutely good point. I just checked and this is offered in the 
LibreOffice Help->LibreOffice Help [F1] menu item. The download links 
are there.


Cheers

Marc


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[tdf-discuss] Re: Request: Installation Instructions

[Marc Paré]

Le 2010-11-25 18:54, Robert Holtzman a écrit :



One of the best ways to help them out would be to (gently, if that makes
you feel better) instruct them that it is customary to do a modicum of
research and try what's found before posting a question to a list. Also,
the post should include the standard information, s/w version, OS, etc.
If you have been participating in mail lists for very long, I'm
surprised you don't recommend this yourself.


This usually happens as a normal course of discussion with people who 
need help. The initial contact may not have enough information and we 
usually as for more. This is pretty standard. I believe it is asking too 
much from a new user to expect this knowledge prior to posting. 
Otherwise, if we had that attitude, we would constantly be berating 
these people and making them feel like our help list is not really helpful.





This might be true if the contributors to the list were paid employees
or if the posters were paying for help. In that case pandering to lazy
users with an infuriating sense of entitlement might be excused because
one does not piss off a paying customer. The truth is, however, that the
contributors are unpaid volunteers who hang here from altruistic
motives and as such are entitled to the respect of not having their time
wasted trying to guess the problem from incomplete questions.


How can you be altruistic and still feel like you are entitled to 
respect from others? These seem like opposing concepts. If you are 
altruistic, then you don't care if people do not give you your 
"entitled" respect. You actually have to earn respect. People do not owe 
you respect. Otherwise, IMO, this would not make you a good candidate 
for a help list.




This may have little to do with installation instructions but it
addresses the flavor I'm getting from some of the messages that *all*
users should be catered to and the clueless ones not be guided into the
right way to ask questions but be tolerated and spoon fed. I have
nothing against clueless users. That's how everyone starts out but, I
remember being guided (sometimes not so gently) in how to ask questions.
I'm not advocating *all* noobs become proficient sysadmins but running a
few simple searches and trying a few things is a far cry from that.


So if you were guided "sometimes not so gently" when you started off 
this makes it right to continue with this technique? Remember, that 
people are here for help and not to be judged. The just want help. 
Again, there are simply too many unknown variables that may make a 
person understand "accepted guidelines" for help lists. A helping and 
friendly help list always wins over a condescending and patronising help 
list.




As far as I'm concerned there is too much of what I call the servant
mentality on this list. I don't find nearly as much on any of the other
lists I'm involved with, including the ubuntu-users and firefox-support
lists which get their share of newly minted users who barely know how to
turn their computer on.


Unfortunately, a help list/desk by definition are exactly that a service 
(from where the word "servant" comes from) to people who need help. If 
serving people in need frustrates particular people, then they should 
not be on the help list.


Marc


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A better idea for a download package.

[Craig A. Eddy]

On 11/25/2010 07:27 PM, Marc Paré wrote:

> Hi Robert:
> 
> Yes this would be ideal. However, this would also impact our developers
> and add to their work. I, myself, would favour Barbara's suggestion of
> having a link offering the user the to download extra packages such as
> manuals. BTW ... I don't believe, at this point, that the downloading
> the LibreOffice into different modules (Writer, Impress, Calc etc) is
> possible. There has been talk of it but I believe this would require a
> rewrite of the code.
> 
> There could be a downloading on-site menu PRIOR to downloading the suite
> offering extra downloadable options or a menu in the installation
> routine (AFTER downloading the suite) that would offer you a choice of
> downloading extra items such as the manual.
> 
> Of these two options, I would prefer being offered the menu AFTER having
> downloaded the LO suite. The reason for this: some users may find that
> downloading the suite took a longer than the anticipated time and they
> would not have enough time/patience to download the additional items.On
> the other hand, if the LO suite had taken less anticipated time to
> download, the user may feel it right to download the extra items.
> 
> Marc
> 
> 

Marc,

May I suggest that, in addition to such a link being in the
installation, itself, that it also be available under "Help" or some
such for those who don't want it immediately, but might want it later
on?  It would simply be a minor additional courtesy for those who wanted
to see what the software could do on its own before adding to it.

Craig
Tyche

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[tdf-discuss] Re: A better idea for a download package.

[Marc Paré]

Le 2010-11-25 14:44, Robert Derman a écrit :

With all the discussion of the size of the download package and the
difficulty of including things like manuals I suddenly realized that
perhaps we are going about this thing entirely wrong! Perhaps what we
should do is offer a CHOICE of several download packages, not just one
take it or leave it package.

A basic download package with just the core LO Office Suite, like what
we have had up to now, and as an alternative, a Complete package
including users manual(s), templates, extensions, clip art, fonts,
anything else that should be in a complete package. Perhaps we could
even offer a Writer Only package without Calc, Draw, Impress, Base, or
Math, and with just a BRIEF users manual for Writer. I suspect that
there may be many home users that just want a word processor and aren't
at all interested in the rest of the suite.


Different users have very different internet connections, some are still
dial up. Some are DSL, and some are Cable and have huge bandwidth.
Offering only a One-Size-Fits-All package may no longer be the best idea.


Hi Robert:

Yes this would be ideal. However, this would also impact our developers 
and add to their work. I, myself, would favour Barbara's suggestion of 
having a link offering the user the to download extra packages such as 
manuals. BTW ... I don't believe, at this point, that the downloading 
the LibreOffice into different modules (Writer, Impress, Calc etc) is 
possible. There has been talk of it but I believe this would require a 
rewrite of the code.


There could be a downloading on-site menu PRIOR to downloading the suite 
offering extra downloadable options or a menu in the installation 
routine (AFTER downloading the suite) that would offer you a choice of 
downloading extra items such as the manual.


Of these two options, I would prefer being offered the menu AFTER having 
downloaded the LO suite. The reason for this: some users may find that 
downloading the suite took a longer than the anticipated time and they 
would not have enough time/patience to download the additional items.On 
the other hand, if the LO suite had taken less anticipated time to 
download, the user may feel it right to download the extra items.


Marc


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Request: Installation Instructions

[Craig A. Eddy]

Rictec,

Modicum - a small amount

Standard Information - In the way that Robert Holtzman used the term, he
means certain facts about your computer and operating system, and the
software you're running at the time (for example, Linux operating
system, LibreOffice 3.3 Beta, Writer.  These are only examples.  In
addition, what were you doing when the problem happened, and have you
tried it again to see if the same thing happens.

Hope this helps.  Oh, and by the way, your English may not be proper
according to an English teacher, but I was able to make out what you
wanted to know, and that's most of what is needed.

Craig
Tyche

On 11/25/2010 06:21 PM, Rictec wrote:
> hi
> how about language? can i ask a good question on this language? even if
> i cant read most of the words you people write? do i have to learn
> English to ask a question? or if i do i get better help?
> 
> there will be all kinds of users asking questions.the more popular it is
> more users will ask questions 
> 
> and please dont forget that some help you do give away for free is to
> prevent other from pain it took you to learn its not fair to blame that
> on them.
> 
> some people like to teach others (and know how to) some dont  
> 
> some examples:
> whats a modicum? 
> whats standard information? how do i know it?
> 
> Rictec
> 
> Qui, 2010-11-25 Ã s 16:54 -0700, Robert Holtzman escreveu:
>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 04:44:42PM -0500, Marc Par� wrote:
>>> Le 2010-11-24 16:20, Robert Holtzman a écrit :
>>>
>>> The best and most practical way is to help them out. The bottom line
>>> is that we would like every type of individuals to use our office
>>> suite and to be happy with it. I have yet to be on one "help" list
>>> or help forum where this question has not been asked and the best
>>> approach has always been to be courteous and help out. It always
>>> leave the user grateful and satisfied.
>>
>> One of the best ways to help them out would be to (gently, if that makes
>> you feel better) instruct them that it is customary to do a modicum of
>> research and try what's found before posting a question to a list. Also,
>> the post should include the standard information, s/w version, OS, etc.
>> If you have been participating in mail lists for very long, I'm
>> surprised you don't recommend this yourself. 
>>
>>>
>>> Let's not assume that they can't/refuse"won't make an effort to
>>> learn and just help them out. After all, they are here for help.
>>>
>>> If there are too many of these individuals on our help lists, then I
>>> would say that our help list has internal problems that need to be
>>> addressed. This would be more of our problem than theirs.
>>
>> This might be true if the contributors to the list were paid employees
>> or if the posters were paying for help. In that case pandering to lazy
>> users with an infuriating sense of entitlement might be excused because
>> one does not piss off a paying customer. The truth is, however, that the
>> contributors are unpaid volunteers who hang here from altruistic
>> motives and as such are entitled to the respect of not having their time
>> wasted trying to guess the problem from incomplete questions. 
>>
>> This may have little to do with installation instructions but it
>> addresses the flavor I'm getting from some of the messages that *all*
>> users should be catered to and the clueless ones not be guided into the
>> right way to ask questions but be tolerated and spoon fed. I have
>> nothing against clueless users. That's how everyone starts out but, I
>> remember being guided (sometimes not so gently) in how to ask questions.
>> I'm not advocating *all* noobs become proficient sysadmins but running a
>> few simple searches and trying a few things is a far cry from that.
>>
>> As far as I'm concerned there is too much of what I call the servant
>> mentality on this list. I don't find nearly as much on any of the other
>> lists I'm involved with, including the ubuntu-users and firefox-support
>> lists which get their share of newly minted users who barely know how to
>> turn their computer on. 
>>
>> Feel free to disagree with me but that's my take on these things. 
>>
>> -- 
>> Bob Holtzman
>> Key ID: 8D549279
>> "If you think you're getting free lunch,
>>  check the price of the beer"
>>
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Request: Installation Instructions

[Rictec]

hi
how about language? can i ask a good question on this language? even if
i cant read most of the words you people write? do i have to learn
English to ask a question? or if i do i get better help?

there will be all kinds of users asking questions.the more popular it is
more users will ask questions 

and please dont forget that some help you do give away for free is to
prevent other from pain it took you to learn its not fair to blame that
on them.

some people like to teach others (and know how to) some dont  

some examples:
whats a modicum? 
whats standard information? how do i know it?

Rictec

Qui, 2010-11-25 às 16:54 -0700, Robert Holtzman escreveu:
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 04:44:42PM -0500, Marc Par� wrote:
> > Le 2010-11-24 16:20, Robert Holtzman a écrit :
> > 
> > The best and most practical way is to help them out. The bottom line
> > is that we would like every type of individuals to use our office
> > suite and to be happy with it. I have yet to be on one "help" list
> > or help forum where this question has not been asked and the best
> > approach has always been to be courteous and help out. It always
> > leave the user grateful and satisfied.
> 
> One of the best ways to help them out would be to (gently, if that makes
> you feel better) instruct them that it is customary to do a modicum of
> research and try what's found before posting a question to a list. Also,
> the post should include the standard information, s/w version, OS, etc.
> If you have been participating in mail lists for very long, I'm
> surprised you don't recommend this yourself. 
> 
> > 
> > Let's not assume that they can't/refuse"won't make an effort to
> > learn and just help them out. After all, they are here for help.
> > 
> > If there are too many of these individuals on our help lists, then I
> > would say that our help list has internal problems that need to be
> > addressed. This would be more of our problem than theirs.
> 
> This might be true if the contributors to the list were paid employees
> or if the posters were paying for help. In that case pandering to lazy
> users with an infuriating sense of entitlement might be excused because
> one does not piss off a paying customer. The truth is, however, that the
> contributors are unpaid volunteers who hang here from altruistic
> motives and as such are entitled to the respect of not having their time
> wasted trying to guess the problem from incomplete questions. 
> 
> This may have little to do with installation instructions but it
> addresses the flavor I'm getting from some of the messages that *all*
> users should be catered to and the clueless ones not be guided into the
> right way to ask questions but be tolerated and spoon fed. I have
> nothing against clueless users. That's how everyone starts out but, I
> remember being guided (sometimes not so gently) in how to ask questions.
> I'm not advocating *all* noobs become proficient sysadmins but running a
> few simple searches and trying a few things is a far cry from that.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned there is too much of what I call the servant
> mentality on this list. I don't find nearly as much on any of the other
> lists I'm involved with, including the ubuntu-users and firefox-support
> lists which get their share of newly minted users who barely know how to
> turn their computer on. 
> 
> Feel free to disagree with me but that's my take on these things. 
> 
> -- 
> Bob Holtzman
> Key ID: 8D549279
> "If you think you're getting free lunch,
>  check the price of the beer"
> 



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Request: Installation Instructions

[Craig A. Eddy]

Robert,

OK, I'll disagree with you.  But only to a degree.  I've worked the
equivalent of an unpaid help desk on IRC (Ubuntu-Arizona LoCo).  We
worked with people that not only weren't necessarily running Ubuntu, but
many times were so far out of the area that their time zone was in
Siberia, etc.  We worked up a series of questions (my son, who had
worked for help desks, and has graduated to being a tech in the NOC
helped us with them) that would guide the person on the other end
through the process.

In effect, we became teachers, because we preceded it with "now, write
these questions down, because they will be important with the next
question you have."  Teachers are not the same as servants.  Teachers
expect a certain level of retention and competence of what has already
been taught, but don't presume that an individual is at a particular
level of such until they talk to them.

As a result, Arizona LoCo became famous for helping people (as much as
we could) with problems with RedHat/Fedora, Windows, and even Mac in
addition to our normal Ubuntu help.  It's really a matter of attitude
and patience (and believe me, some of the people we helped could really
try one's patience).  Our help included teaching people where the forums
were and how to use them, how to run a search on Google (or the search
engine of their choice), as well as how to ask questions.  Many of those
people went on to help others (to the best of their ability) before
referring the others to us.

The system works, but, it DOES require patience and a good attitude to
develop and manage.  As you can see, by comparing what you wrote with
what's above, this does help the questioning individual to develop
better skills in asking questions as well as providing him with the
tools to provide answers himself/herself.

Craig
Tyche

On 11/25/2010 04:54 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 04:44:42PM -0500, Marc Par� wrote:
>> Le 2010-11-24 16:20, Robert Holtzman a écrit :
>>
>> The best and most practical way is to help them out. The bottom line
>> is that we would like every type of individuals to use our office
>> suite and to be happy with it. I have yet to be on one "help" list
>> or help forum where this question has not been asked and the best
>> approach has always been to be courteous and help out. It always
>> leave the user grateful and satisfied.
> 
> One of the best ways to help them out would be to (gently, if that makes
> you feel better) instruct them that it is customary to do a modicum of
> research and try what's found before posting a question to a list. Also,
> the post should include the standard information, s/w version, OS, etc.
> If you have been participating in mail lists for very long, I'm
> surprised you don't recommend this yourself. 
> 
>>
>> Let's not assume that they can't/refuse"won't make an effort to
>> learn and just help them out. After all, they are here for help.
>>
>> If there are too many of these individuals on our help lists, then I
>> would say that our help list has internal problems that need to be
>> addressed. This would be more of our problem than theirs.
> 
> This might be true if the contributors to the list were paid employees
> or if the posters were paying for help. In that case pandering to lazy
> users with an infuriating sense of entitlement might be excused because
> one does not piss off a paying customer. The truth is, however, that the
> contributors are unpaid volunteers who hang here from altruistic
> motives and as such are entitled to the respect of not having their time
> wasted trying to guess the problem from incomplete questions. 
> 
> This may have little to do with installation instructions but it
> addresses the flavor I'm getting from some of the messages that *all*
> users should be catered to and the clueless ones not be guided into the
> right way to ask questions but be tolerated and spoon fed. I have
> nothing against clueless users. That's how everyone starts out but, I
> remember being guided (sometimes not so gently) in how to ask questions.
> I'm not advocating *all* noobs become proficient sysadmins but running a
> few simple searches and trying a few things is a far cry from that.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned there is too much of what I call the servant
> mentality on this list. I don't find nearly as much on any of the other
> lists I'm involved with, including the ubuntu-users and firefox-support
> lists which get their share of newly minted users who barely know how to
> turn their computer on. 
> 
> Feel free to disagree with me but that's my take on these things. 
> 

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Request: Installation Instructions

[Carl Symons]

On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Robert Holtzman  wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 04:44:42PM -0500, Marc Par� wrote:
>> Le 2010-11-24 16:20, Robert Holtzman a écrit :
>>
>> The best and most practical way is to help them out. The bottom line
>> is that we would like every type of individuals to use our office
>> suite and to be happy with it. I have yet to be on one "help" list
>> or help forum where this question has not been asked and the best
>> approach has always been to be courteous and help out. It always
>> leave the user grateful and satisfied.
>
> One of the best ways to help them out would be to (gently, if that makes
> you feel better) instruct them that it is customary to do a modicum of
> research and try what's found before posting a question to a list. Also,
> the post should include the standard information, s/w version, OS, etc.
> If you have been participating in mail lists for very long, I'm
> surprised you don't recommend this yourself.
>
>>
>> Let's not assume that they can't/refuse"won't make an effort to
>> learn and just help them out. After all, they are here for help.
>>
>> If there are too many of these individuals on our help lists, then I
>> would say that our help list has internal problems that need to be
>> addressed. This would be more of our problem than theirs.
>
> This might be true if the contributors to the list were paid employees
> or if the posters were paying for help. In that case pandering to lazy
> users with an infuriating sense of entitlement might be excused because
> one does not piss off a paying customer. The truth is, however, that the
> contributors are unpaid volunteers who hang here from altruistic
> motives and as such are entitled to the respect of not having their time
> wasted trying to guess the problem from incomplete questions.

I have no problem guiding someone who needs to learn how to ask
questions. Somewhere I've got that page bookmarked
(http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html) and refer people
to it occasionally. I too am put off by people who feel entitled to
immediate help and abuse the knowledgeable mailing list contributors.
In a similar way, it is a turn off to hear some arrogant blather from
one of the knowledgeable contributors who insists that everyone
interact with the list in a particular way. Both are inconsiderate.

Following this thread, I recall no one saying that the knowledgeable
contributors are not entitled to respect. They also don't need to
waste their time guessing problems. It is a simple matter of someone
replying to the message, respectfully pointing out the need for
complete information. There is no need to belittle people or beat them
up because they don't use CLI.


>
> This may have little to do with installation instructions but it
> addresses the flavor I'm getting from some of the messages that *all*
> users should be catered to and the clueless ones not be guided into the
> right way to ask questions but be tolerated and spoon fed. I have
> nothing against clueless users. That's how everyone starts out but, I
> remember being guided (sometimes not so gently) in how to ask questions.
> I'm not advocating *all* noobs become proficient sysadmins but running a
> few simple searches and trying a few things is a far cry from that.
>
> As far as I'm concerned there is too much of what I call the servant
> mentality on this list. I don't find nearly as much on any of the other
> lists I'm involved with, including the ubuntu-users and firefox-support
> lists which get their share of newly minted users who barely know how to
> turn their computer on.
>
> Feel free to disagree with me but that's my take on these things.
>
> --
> Bob Holtzman

I do not recall any recommendation that noobs shouldn't be guided to
be effective in their queries. F/OSS forums and mailing lists function
amazingly well, and mailing list/forum etiquette is common across most
of the ones I know about.  I too started as a dummy (well, more of a
dummy). I couldn't figure out why there was no reply to my question
about lspci-v (no space). It took me several days to figure out the
format of CLI commands. No one beat the crap out of me; there was just
no answer. It took me several days to understand why. It was a
respectful lesson about Linux.

Considering that Ubuntu/Kubuntu users have been singled out in this
discussion...
   The first post in ubuntuforums is:
  [sticky] Suggestions on how to get your support questions
answered as quickly as possible
   and in kubuntuforums: Please Read Before Posting/Search before
posting (also sticky)
It might be useful to point those ()ubuntu or other naive users to
these posts.

I see nothing wrong with guiding a new user with a few direct words
about community software and a link to ESR's smart question site
(maybe there could be a LibO "Read This First"). That's not
disrespectful. If someone is a jerk who thinks that they are entitled
to an immediate answer from well-meaning volunteers, it's 

Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Request: Installation Instructions

[Robert Holtzman]

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 04:44:42PM -0500, Marc Par� wrote:
> Le 2010-11-24 16:20, Robert Holtzman a écrit :
> 
> The best and most practical way is to help them out. The bottom line
> is that we would like every type of individuals to use our office
> suite and to be happy with it. I have yet to be on one "help" list
> or help forum where this question has not been asked and the best
> approach has always been to be courteous and help out. It always
> leave the user grateful and satisfied.

One of the best ways to help them out would be to (gently, if that makes
you feel better) instruct them that it is customary to do a modicum of
research and try what's found before posting a question to a list. Also,
the post should include the standard information, s/w version, OS, etc.
If you have been participating in mail lists for very long, I'm
surprised you don't recommend this yourself. 

> 
> Let's not assume that they can't/refuse"won't make an effort to
> learn and just help them out. After all, they are here for help.
> 
> If there are too many of these individuals on our help lists, then I
> would say that our help list has internal problems that need to be
> addressed. This would be more of our problem than theirs.

This might be true if the contributors to the list were paid employees
or if the posters were paying for help. In that case pandering to lazy
users with an infuriating sense of entitlement might be excused because
one does not piss off a paying customer. The truth is, however, that the
contributors are unpaid volunteers who hang here from altruistic
motives and as such are entitled to the respect of not having their time
wasted trying to guess the problem from incomplete questions. 

This may have little to do with installation instructions but it
addresses the flavor I'm getting from some of the messages that *all*
users should be catered to and the clueless ones not be guided into the
right way to ask questions but be tolerated and spoon fed. I have
nothing against clueless users. That's how everyone starts out but, I
remember being guided (sometimes not so gently) in how to ask questions.
I'm not advocating *all* noobs become proficient sysadmins but running a
few simple searches and trying a few things is a far cry from that.

As far as I'm concerned there is too much of what I call the servant
mentality on this list. I don't find nearly as much on any of the other
lists I'm involved with, including the ubuntu-users and firefox-support
lists which get their share of newly minted users who barely know how to
turn their computer on. 

Feel free to disagree with me but that's my take on these things. 

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"

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Re: [steering-discuss] moderators mailing list needed?

[Christoph Noack]

Hi Flo!

Am Donnerstag, den 25.11.2010, 11:47 +0100 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
> Hi,
> 
> do we need a mailing list for the moderators of all lists? I want to 
> avoid too many lists, but right now, it would be extremely helpful to 
> reach all mailing list reponsible people with one e-mail, so I'm 
> thinking about such a list...

Mmh, I don't think that an somehow "internally" used mailing list does
cause any confusion. One question: Do you intend to also add the "server
admins", maybe even the "mirror people"? So we might end up in some kind
of "infrastructure" mailing list.

Well, I'm no expert here ... but always there to throw in ideas ;-)

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Download torrent files - Which ones?

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Alan, *,

On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 4:45 PM, alan c  wrote:
> I think that one way I can possibly contribute to the project just now is to
> seed a number of torrents for others to download.
>
> I found a large number of torrents, including many libraries I think, when I
> looked, seeded some of them but very few became at all active. And there
> were several versions too.
>
> I do not know enough to decide which ones, and when, would be most useful.
>
> Can anyone please advise me  - say ref the five most useful  to seed please?

The most useful ones are the full installers of the latest version:

* Windows (multi and all)
* Linux x86 deb/rpm & x86_64 (rpm+deb)
* Mac OSX (PPC & Intel)

So this would be 8 torrents to choose from.
Windows one is most requested.

(but only a tiny fraction of downloades use bittorrent for downloading LO)
So pick whatever seems fit.

There might be more downloades using BT once it is offered more
prominently (and links to the torrents directly in having the user
search on the tracker)

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] A better idea for a download package.

[Robert Derman]

With all the discussion of the size of the download package and the 
difficulty of including things like manuals I suddenly realized that 
perhaps we are going about this thing entirely wrong!  Perhaps what we 
should do is offer a CHOICE of several download packages, not just one 
take it or leave it package. 



 A basic download package with just the core LO Office Suite, like what 
we have had up to now, and as an alternative, a Complete package 
including users manual(s), templates, extensions, clip art, fonts, 
anything else that should be in a complete package.  Perhaps we could 
even offer a Writer Only package without Calc, Draw, Impress, Base, or 
Math, and with just a BRIEF users manual for Writer.  I suspect that 
there may be many home users that just want a word processor and aren't 
at all interested in the rest of the suite.



Different users have very different internet connections, some are still 
dial up.  Some are DSL, and some are Cable and have huge bandwidth.   
Offering only a One-Size-Fits-All package may no longer be the best idea. 


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[tdf-discuss] Download torrent files - Which ones?

[alan c]

I think that one way I can possibly contribute to the project just now 
is to seed a number of torrents for others to download.


I found a large number of torrents, including many libraries I think, 
when I looked, seeded some of them but very few became at all active. 
And there were several versions too.


I do not know enough to decide which ones, and when, would be most useful.

Can anyone please advise me  - say ref the five most useful  to seed 
please?

tia
--
alan cocks
Ubuntu user

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Request: Installation Instructions

[Valter Mura]

In data giovedì 25 novembre 2010 00:56:37, Robert Derman ha scritto:

> ..snip.
> 
>  Whether it's user friendly or not depends on the user. If he/she/it is
>  open to learning a *few* new things, it is extremely user friendly.
>  There is, however, a segment of the population that actively resists
>  learning *anything*.
> >>> 
> >>> That's why: the more user-friendly, the more Libò will spread
> >>> throughout the
> >>> world...
> >> 
> >> I have a problem when it comes to rewarding people that refuse to make
> >> an effort to learn. Notice, I said "refuse", not "incapable of"
> > 
> > The same question is always asked in educational circles. We never
> > know under which circumstances the user is here, nor do we know of the
> > level of comprehension, reading abilities, cultural differences,
> > linguistic abilities, whether they are here by clicking on the wrong
> > link etc. There could be many reasons why users may be incapable of
> > learning steps. There are just too many variables.
> > 
> > The best and most practical way is to help them out. The bottom line
> > is that we would like every type of individuals to use our office
> > suite and to be happy with it. I have yet to be on one "help" list or
> > help forum where this question has not been asked and the best
> > approach has always been to be courteous and help out. It always leave
> > the user grateful and satisfied.
> > 
> > Let's not assume that they can't/refuse"won't make an effort to learn
> > and just help them out. After all, they are here for help.
> > 
> > If there are too many of these individuals on our help lists, then I
> > would say that our help list has internal problems that need to be
> > addressed. This would be more of our problem than theirs.
> > 
> > Cheers
> > 
> > Marc
> 
> I haven't followed this particular thread very closely, but nevertheless
> one thing seems to be appearant, and that is why Linux only has a few
> percent of the PC OS market and Windows has the vast majority of it.
> Most people who use computers are not computer experts, or computer
> hobyists, and don't want to be, for them a computer is a tool they need
> to use in order to acomplish what they need to.  Learning how to do
> command line entry is not something they want to do.  Perhaps they
> actually have a life, a spouse, kids other things they want to spend
> their time on.  They want programs that install by clicking on Install,
> Next, Next, Next, Finish.  As long as Linux doesn't work that way, they
> will stay away from it.

This is exactly what I meant before... :-)

-- 
Valter
Registered Linux User #466410  http://counter.li.org
Kubuntu Linux: www.kubuntu.org
OpenOffice.org: www.openoffice.org

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Vision/Mission

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Thorsten,

2010/11/25 Thorsten Wilms 

> On Thu, 2010-11-25 at 10:09 +0100, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
>
> > I would be very surprised if the original mission statement were to be
> > changed at that stage. So perhaps the Mission page that was opened
> recently
> > may not be where your contributions may be the most effective.
>
> Quoting Bernhard Dippold on the marketing list, who did understand me
> right:
>
> >If I understand Thorsten right, his aim is not the TDF mission
> >statement you link to, but the LibreOffice community mission statement.
> >
> >On the TDF page the mission is stated as "to facilitate the evolution
> >of the [...] community into a new structure ... and co-ordinate
> >activity across the community."
> >
> >This is about the way TDF supports LibreOffice.
> >
> >But our goals as community have not been defined by now - we just
> >inherited them from OOo.
>
> Archived at:
> http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/marketing/msg01404.html
>

Well, again, we need to populate to website that currently sits on
test.libreoffice.org
I would be grateful if you could help with this. This is an urgent task. The
rest can wait.

Thanks

Charles.

>
>
> --
> Thorsten Wilms
>
> thorwil's design for free software:
> http://thorwil.wordpress.com/
>
>
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Vision/Mission

[Thorsten Wilms]

On Thu, 2010-11-25 at 10:09 +0100, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:

> I would be very surprised if the original mission statement were to be
> changed at that stage. So perhaps the Mission page that was opened recently
> may not be where your contributions may be the most effective. 

Quoting Bernhard Dippold on the marketing list, who did understand me
right:

>If I understand Thorsten right, his aim is not the TDF mission
>statement you link to, but the LibreOffice community mission statement.
>
>On the TDF page the mission is stated as "to facilitate the evolution
>of the [...] community into a new structure ... and co-ordinate
>activity across the community."
>
>This is about the way TDF supports LibreOffice.
>
>But our goals as community have not been defined by now - we just 
>inherited them from OOo.

Archived at:
http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/marketing/msg01404.html


-- 
Thorsten Wilms

thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/


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Re: [steering-discuss] Community bylaws

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Bernhard,

2010/11/24 Bernhard Dippold 

> Hi Michael, all,
>
> one question on the ESC:
>
> Michael Meeks schrieb:
>
>> Hi Drew,
>>
>> On Fri, 2010-11-19 at 07:56 -0500, drew wrote:
>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>
>>  The ESC, do you see this as a very active group, for instance working as
>>> the release team, meeting often and looking at individual issues?
>>>
>>
>>Wrt. looking at individual issues, probably not - unless they have
>> wide
>> reaching consequences; but to better co-ordinate on the burning issues
>> of the day, and have a final say on things like:
>>
>>"Do we port entirely to Java" (I think 'no' but ... ;-)
>>
>>And to be a responsible backstop for technical issues - which often
>> simply require a decision - any decision being far better than none.
>>
>
> I fully understand the necessity for an entity to decide on mere technical
> issues.
>
> What I only see described between the lines, is something we should
> consider, as is has led to a very disappointing situation in OOo:
>
> Can ESC decide on topics related not only to coding and development, but
> influencing larger parts of the community?
>
> Probably all of you know about the OOo-ESC decision on implementing the
> color"less" ODF icons.
>
> The topic has been discussed in an ESC meeting, where nobody objected loud,
> then presented in a blog entry after the first version had been finished and
> despite very strong opinions against their implementation implemented in
> OOo3.2.1 with the negative feedback foreseen by their critics.
>
> I don't want to experience another similar situation - well knowing, that
> the OOo-ESC is special because of Oracle.
>
> But every now and then there will be a situation, where developer have a
> certain opinion on strategic decisions and directions of development.
> Marketing and / or UX might think differently. As the developer are the ones
> able to include their solution in the product, they have a quite strong
> position. How can we assure that other groups' expertise will have the same
> impact?
>
> The Bylaws state that the ESC "provides technological guidance on strategic
> matters". That's guidance, not decision.
>
> Will the BoD be the entity to decide in such a situation?
>


Yes, it will be up to the BoD to settle things down if such a situation were
to arise.

Best,
Charles.

>
> On which list do we discuss strategic matters at all?
>
> Marketing? Discuss? Steering-Discuss?
> A closed list to avoid counter-activity by our competitor(s)?
>
> Sorry for coming up with such a more or less hypothetical case, but I
> really want to avoid problems as we had them in OOo...
>
> Best regards
>
> Bernhard
>
>
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Re: [steering-discuss] Community bylaws

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Bernhard, Cor,

2010/11/25 Cor Nouws 

> Hi ,
>
> Bernhard Dippold wrote (24-11-10 23:51)
>
>
>  Vote only once a year (as any election draws action from the "normal"
>> tasks a shorter term will take too much resources) and elect all BoD
>> members.
>>
>
> Voting each year for all members, that can serve for two years
> consecutively, requires that from our community every year on average 4-5
> new people (with 9 BoD members) stand up. People that are known, qualified,
> have time, like to do the work and cooperate in the team. Each year.
> Do we think it it reasonable to expect or ask that?
>


So that's what I had written in the latest version I think; on the other
hand, let's remember there will be an Executive Director in charge of the
Daily Business :)

Best,
Charles.


>
> Cor
>
>
> --
>  - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation -
>
>
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Vision/Mission

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Hello all,

I would be very surprised if the original mission statement were to be
changed at that stage. So perhaps the Mission page that was opened recently
may not be where your contributions may be the most effective. May I kindly
remind you that we absolutely and urgently need to populate the website
(currently accessible here: http://test.libreoffice.org) and that we do have
other tasks listed here: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Work_Items

Your help is welcome!

Charles-H. Schulz.

2010/11/25 David Nelson 

> Hi, :-)
>
> On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 12:20, Sonic4Spuds  wrote:
> > "productivity software for home and office"
>
> +2
>
> David Nelson
>
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