Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums - A Different Question
On 05/04/2011 12:46 PM, Augustine Souza wrote: Resources? Stop with the dehumanizing. They are human beings @ user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum and totally helpful. Don't be silly. Of course I meant the forums themselves when I said resources, not the people on them. Hence my also referring to the hypothetical forums that LibreOffice doesn't provide as resources. -- Isaac Hummel is...@daedaleus.com http://daedaleus.isaachummel.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums - A Different Question
Om the basis of the discussions going on at this list, I do share your analysis as expressed in: http://daedaleus.isaachummel.com/2011/05/01/whither-openoffice/ But I wonder/doubt if the view the LibreOffice community is mired in excessive open source zeal and geek elitism also applies to the developers who do the real work. Pieter -Original Message- From: Isaac Hummel [mailto:is...@daedaleus.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 11:12 AM To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums - A Different Question On 05/02/2011 10:49 PM, NoOp wrote: Sorry, but I'd have to disagree... http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use The resources are owned and operated by Oracle. Whilst http://user.services.openoffice.org may (currently) tolerate LO posts, certainly LO/TDF should prefer to not continue to send users/prospective users to OOo properties for support and answers regarding LO. Doing so is akin to having OOo send users/prospective users to the LO users list for support. Except that OpenOffice.org has a users mailing list and LO doesn't have a web forum (and won't set one up in the foreseeable future, if the discussions about it on these lists are anything to go by). -- Isaac Hummel is...@daedaleus.com http://daedaleus.isaachummel.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums - A Different Question
On Mon, 02 May 2011 19:49:53 -0700 NoOp gl...@sbcglobal.net wrote: On 04/30/2011 01:56 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote: Harold Fuchs wrote: Has Oracle given permission for TDF to use its forum, or doesn't TDF need such permission? Does TDF *want* to use an Oracle resource? I think Drew has already explained this on multiple mailing lists, anyway: the forums at http://user.services.openoffice.org/ are run by community members and not by Oracle, they explicitly include LibreOffice among the supported software (see page header), they can be used with no need for permissions from Oracle, and they are probably the best place where LibreOffice users can get support if they don't like mailing lists. Regards, Andrea. Sorry, but I'd have to disagree... http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use The resources are owned and operated by Oracle. It's no contraction that the resource is made available by Oracle and the forum is run by community members as stated by Drew. Didn't Oracle anyhow recently announce that OpenOffice.org will become a pure community project? Whilst http://user.services.openoffice.org may (currently) tolerate LO posts, No, they don't just tolerate it, they explicitly support LibrOffice posts: User community support forum for OpenOffice.org, StarOffice, NeoOffice and LibreOffice -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums - A Different Question
On 05/03/2011 05:35 AM, Pieter E. Zanstra wrote: Om the basis of the discussions going on at this list, I do share your analysis as expressed in: http://daedaleus.isaachummel.com/2011/05/01/whither-openoffice/ But I wonder/doubt if the view the LibreOffice community is mired in excessive open source zeal and geek elitism also applies to the developers who do the real work. Fair enough. I put LibreOffice on my mother's Windows 7 laptop and she has nothing but praise for it. -- Isaac Hummel is...@daedaleus.com http://daedaleus.isaachummel.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums - A Different Question
On 05/03/2011 10:17 PM, NoOp wrote: True. But again, that justifies continuing to use Oracle resources how? LibreOffice is a branch from OOo just as go-oo and associated linux distributions that used the go-oo packages were. A continued issue on the OOo user list was determining if a linux user was using a standard OOo, or if they were using linux distribution variant. A great deal of OOo list user time was determining if the poster was using a go-oo variant, and then redirecting them to their linux specific support facilities (ex: launchpad for Ubuntu OOo). LibreOffice (IMO) should 'man up' and either provide resources for their own forums, or as an interim just state that currently there are no such LO forums available. Or support: http://libreofficeforum.org/ or similar. I absolutely, 100% support LO setting up its own forum, or at least throwing support behind the unofficial LibreOffice forum you mention. But linking to the community-driven official OpenOffice forum is better than doing nothing. Going to an Oracle-sponsored site does not make one ceremonially unclean, nor does linking to it. Not linking to the resources that are out there while declining to provide resources of ones own is more embarrassing than linking to the community-run Oracle OpenOffice forums. -- Isaac Hummel is...@daedaleus.com http://daedaleus.isaachummel.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums - A Different Question
Harold Fuchs wrote: Has Oracle given permission for TDF to use its forum, or doesn't TDF need such permission? Does TDF *want* to use an Oracle resource? I think Drew has already explained this on multiple mailing lists, anyway: the forums at http://user.services.openoffice.org/ are run by community members and not by Oracle, they explicitly include LibreOffice among the supported software (see page header), they can be used with no need for permissions from Oracle, and they are probably the best place where LibreOffice users can get support if they don't like mailing lists. Regards, Andrea. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums - A Different Question
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 9:42 AM, Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote: snip Thanks for the answer. So, we should then go with the blurb without the and can be found by searching online part. Here it is: You can get support for LibreOffice from various independent forums run by LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org users and supporters. These forums are mature and heavily trafficked and offer quality support to LibreOffice. LibreOffice does not offer an official forums board at this time. An official forums board is still under consideration. I'll post this blurb on the website list and ask that the Forums section be updated to this new blurb. Cheers Marc I like this Marc. Thank you for pulling it together. Carl -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums - A Different Question
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 7:28 AM, Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote: Le 28/04/11 09:04 AM, Carl Symons a écrit : On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:52 AM, Harold Fuchs hwfa.libreoff...@gmail.com wrote: Please, why does the LibreOffice web page link to the forums for OpenOffice.org ? The current LO Help web page at http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ has two links to OOo forums: - http://www.oooforum.org/ - http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ Harold Fuchs London, England Because they are a useful resource for getting LibreOffice help, as LibreOffice and OpenOffice closely resemble each other. There are millions of people using OpenOffice. There are fewer millions (so far) using LibreOffice. The OOo forums are more mature and more heavily trafficked than the LibreOffice forums. As the forums discussions are/have been/will be controversial, could we add a more informative comment on the web page/forums section. Something such Carl has just mentioned. Perhaps something like: You can get support for LibreOffice from various independent forums run by LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org users and supporters. These forums are more mature and heavily trafficked and offer quality support to the LibreOffice project. LibreOffice does not offer a native forums board at this time. A native forums board is still under consideration. I agree Marc. I can't see into the future, but it is easy to imagine that there will be an active LibreOffice forum sometime. Easy to imagine that The Document Foundation would host it, sans ads. And that it will be the GoTo LibO forum. This will be the case increasingly as OpenOffice deteriorates (easy to imagine that too, IMO). I'm not sure that the average user will get the meaning of native forums board. Maybe official forum or forum sponsored by LibreOffice itself. Still under consideration may be technically accurate. I think that it would be understandable and land better with users to say something like implementation details are still being discussed by the LibO community. I don't want to offend anyone's delicate sensibilities, but the forum I use for LibO questions is Google Search. Search for openoffice forums or libreoffice forums, get more than a million results. Thus, I think that it would be effective to add something to Marc's write-up suggesting online search for solutions using either LibreOffice or OpenOffice as a qualifier. Carl This way, the user, seeking help on this page, will be informed of the outside links, informed of their solid performance in helping LO users, informed that there is no native forums at this point and informed that a forums board is still under consideration. Although quite verbose, it would inform users of the situation at this point and slow down the constant new threads about creating a native forums board. It is very clear that the forums topic is a recurring topic and that it will most likely never disappear until a native forums board is created OR until one/more of the external board adopt a name change that is more inclusive of the LibreOffice name. Cheers Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums - A Different Question
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 8:14 AM, Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote: Le 28/04/11 10:47 AM, Carl Symons a écrit : On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 7:28 AM, Marc Parém...@marcpare.com wrote: Le 28/04/11 09:04 AM, Carl Symons a écrit : On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:52 AM, Harold Fuchs hwfa.libreoff...@gmail.com wrote: Please, why does the LibreOffice web page link to the forums for OpenOffice.org ? The current LO Help web page at http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ has two links to OOo forums: - http://www.oooforum.org/ - http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ Harold Fuchs London, England Because they are a useful resource for getting LibreOffice help, as LibreOffice and OpenOffice closely resemble each other. There are millions of people using OpenOffice. There are fewer millions (so far) using LibreOffice. The OOo forums are more mature and more heavily trafficked than the LibreOffice forums. As the forums discussions are/have been/will be controversial, could we add a more informative comment on the web page/forums section. Something such Carl has just mentioned. Perhaps something like: You can get support for LibreOffice from various independent forums run by LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org users and supporters. These forums are more mature and heavily trafficked and offer quality support to the LibreOffice project. LibreOffice does not offer a native forums board at this time. A native forums board is still under consideration. I agree Marc. I'm not sure that the average user will get the meaning of native forums board. Maybe official forum or forum sponsored by LibreOffice itself. Still under consideration may be technically accurate. I think that it would be understandable and land better with users to say something like implementation details are still being discussed by the LibO community. I am just keeping out of any comment on the state of forums right now. It is just too explosive an issue. So, incorporating your suggestions, the text would read: You can get support for LibreOffice from various independent forums run by LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org users and supporters. These forums are more mature and heavily trafficked and offer quality support to the LibreOffice project. LibreOffice does not offer an official forums board at this time. An official forums board is still under consideration. Does this sound more informative? Cheers Marc Yes, now only one issue... more mature is comparative, but there is no comparison present. (Well, one is implied.) I'd change this sentence to: These forums are mature and heavily trafficked. They offer quality support for LibreOffice, and can be found by searching online. Carl -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums - A Different Question
Microsoft must be smiling. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums - A Different Question
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 9:50 AM, Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote: Hi Carl Le 28/04/11 11:22 AM, Carl Symons a écrit : You can get support for LibreOffice from various independent forums run by LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org users and supporters. These forums are more mature and heavily trafficked and offer quality support to the LibreOffice project. LibreOffice does not offer an official forums board at this time. An official forums board is still under consideration. Does this sound more informative? Cheers Marc Yes, now only one issue... more mature is comparative, but there is no comparison present. (Well, one is implied.) I'd change this sentence to: These forums are mature and heavily trafficked. They offer quality support for LibreOffice, and can be found by searching online. Carl So this newer version: You can get support for LibreOffice from various independent forums run by LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org users and supporters. These forums are mature and heavily trafficked. They offer quality support to LibreOffice and can be found by searching online. LibreOffice does not offer an official forums board at this time. An official forums board is still under consideration. I am not quite sure what is the significance of the and can be found by searching online. Remember, the reader is already on the LibreOffice website page getting help page.[1] I am not sure if it needs this part of the sentence as it is ambiguous. Cheers Marc I'm fine if it's not there. Overly obsessive, but I'll work on getting over it B^) Carl [1] http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
