RE: GNUstep on the rise!
Quoting Vaisburd, Haim [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Cris Vetter wrote: [...] [ GNUstep separate OS ] AFAIK, xMach is dead :-( So does anyone know how far Hurd is with respect to usability? [...] Sorry, I deleted the essential part of Cris' letter that I'm going to reply. I guess when Chris was talking exclusive GNUstep experience he meant the distribution, not the OS per se (kernel). It seems the obvious choice for that distribution would be the Linux kernel. As far as I understand, nothing in the kernel dictates unix standard FHS, unix standard configuration (/etc content), a type of window system or other things that might annoy a person who experienced NeXT ( I never did ). On the other hand it's well supported for several architchures and many periferal devices. Other post suggested Darwin, I believe it would be as good as Linux, but why to look for something else? Tima. Exactly. When I did my small GNUstep OS experiment I thought long about jumping to some more interresting platform (I tried Hurd, and Darwin and BSD came to my mind as well), but later I realized that it is not important to have a specific kernel (since it's development isn't connected to GNUstep anyway) and the following are facts: Linux ... - is stable - has much support - has drivers for almost everything under our Sun - is layout independent and flexible (it's just a kernel after all) However, the question of file system layout and other under the hood, complicated features, isn't important - history has shown us that NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP, Mac OS X and other pure OpenStep-ish systems can be Unices without any loss of ease of use. For example, on NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP all folders like /bin or /usr were simply hidden by the Workspace from the simple user, until unhidden by a user default. This is even better than trying to reinvent the wheel and define a different file system layout - lamers don't see what they don't need, and experienced UNIX experts find themselves like at home immediately. Don't make the same mistakes as Microsoft does, when they forcefuly degrade experienced people to the level of trained monkeys. Regards Saso ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep on the rise!
On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:50:47 Tabitha McNerney wrote: Hi all, I have to say that when I read this about DRM and Apple Intel machines: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/01/0421248from=rss it made me realize even more so how important it is that GNUstep continue to rise to the forefront such that it can be installed on top of open source systems to avoid nasty DRM!!! That reminds me... A few days ago I read an article mentioning, among other things, GNUstep and how 'cool' (my choice of words) it would be if/when/whether 'these guys' (ie. the developers of GNUstep) would decide to put GNUstep on top of their OWN operating system instead of 'screwing around with existing systems resulting in symlinks all over the place' (again, my choice of words) and 'imagine GNUstep on a Mach based kernel.' My first thought was along a distribution based on (Open)Darwin. However, with respect to the recent news about Darwin/OSX x86 and DRM, I guess this would be a 'no go.' AFAIK, xMach is dead :-( So does anyone know how far Hurd is with respect to usability? Cheers, -- Chris -- GMX DSL = Maximale Leistung zum minimalen Preis! 2000 MB nur 2,99, Flatrate ab 4,99 Euro/Monat: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep on the rise!
On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 09:17:05 +0200, Chris Vetter wrote: AFAIK, xMach is dead :-( So does anyone know how far Hurd is with respect to usability? It is usable, at least much more usable than it used to be. You might want to take a look at Michael Banck's announcement [1]. For the time being only gnustep-make is ported for Debian GNU/Hurd and there are still some other things to do in order to make precompiled packages. But it is moving forward, that's the most important thing. I'd love to see GNUstep developers paying more attention to GNU systems, rather than trying to enhance proprietary platforms. [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2005/07/msg6.html -- Yavor Doganov Free Software Association - Bulgaria ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep on the rise!
Quoting Chris Vetter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: A few days ago I read an article mentioning, among other things, GNUstep and how 'cool' (my choice of words) it would be if/when/whether 'these guys' (ie. the developers of GNUstep) would decide to put GNUstep on top of their OWN operating system instead of 'screwing around with existing systems resulting in symlinks all over the place' (again, my choice of words) and 'imagine GNUstep on a Mach based kernel.' This would, IMHO, be the biggest mistake possible: tying GNUstep to a particular platform. I personally love that fact that I only have to write an app once and then have it running with little porting effort on Linux, FreeBSD, Mac OS X, and even ugly, but spread M$ Windows. Of course, I'm not against a GNUstep-only-system (hell, I already did it as my graduation work at high school, complete with a CD-based installer, integrated workspace, it's own package management, etc.), but care should be taken not to make it part of the core libraries. Saso ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep on the rise!
On 8/4/05, Sašo Kiselkov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Chris Vetter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: A few days ago I read an article mentioning, among other things, GNUstep and how 'cool' (my choice of words) it would be if/when/whether 'these guys' (ie. the developers of GNUstep) would decide to put GNUstep on top of their OWN operating system instead of 'screwing around with existing systems resulting in symlinks all over the place' (again, my choice of words) and 'imagine GNUstep on a Mach based kernel.' This would, IMHO, be the biggest mistake possible: tying GNUstep to a particular platform. I personally love that fact that I only have to write an app once and then have it running with little porting effort on Linux, FreeBSD, Mac OS X, and even ugly, but spread M$ Windows. Of course, I'm not against a GNUstep-only-system (hell, I already did it as my graduation work at high school, complete with a CD-based installer, integrated workspace, it's own package management, etc.), but care should be taken not to make it part of the core libraries. Well, GNUstep itself should stay as it is, cross-platform, indeed. Having a good windows port would be rather useful, and should attract OSX devs. But on the linux (or bsd) side, I don't see how GNUstep (more exactly, a GNUstep-based desktop) could prevail against KDE/GNOME -- considering their respective market share and, the fact they are rather good now, it would be really difficult for a 3rd desktop to really emerge. For me the only real option would indeed to have a GNUstep OS containing only GNUstep apps, to really have a consistent and powerful environment that people can easily try and adopt. Plus, in some way it would be easier than a desktop: with a desktop you need to be rather tolerant to your host OS, while with an OS you can control everything and thus propose original solutions (eg you can decide to use launchd, rendezvous, etc.). If people want to adapt the desktop part on their own os, they still can anyway. You can see how different it feels when you have a complete GNUstep env by trying the GNUstep livecd (http://livecd.gnustep.org) ... and yet, the live cd is just based on debian. Anyway, the live cd route is a good one, as it let people easily try new environments/projects. -- Nicolas Roard Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. -Arthur C. Clarke ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep on the rise!
Sašo Kiselkov wrote: Quoting Chris Vetter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: A few days ago I read an article mentioning, among other things, GNUstep and how 'cool' (my choice of words) it would be if/when/whether 'these guys' (ie. the developers of GNUstep) would decide to put GNUstep on top of their OWN operating system instead of 'screwing around with existing systems resulting in symlinks all over the place' (again, my choice of words) and 'imagine GNUstep on a Mach based kernel.' This would, IMHO, be the biggest mistake possible: tying GNUstep to a particular platform. I personally love that fact that I only have to write an app once and then have it running with little porting effort on Linux, FreeBSD, Mac OS X, and even ugly, but spread M$ Windows. Of course, I'm not against a GNUstep-only-system (hell, I already did it as my graduation work at high school, complete with a CD-based installer, integrated workspace, it's own package management, etc.), is it downloadable? but care should be taken not to make it part of the core libraries. Saso ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep on the rise!
On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 12:26:47 Nicolas Roard wrote:
[...]
Well, GNUstep itself should stay as it is, cross-platform, indeed.
Absolutely.
[...]
For me the only real option would indeed to have a GNUstep OS
containing only GNUstep apps, to really have a consistent and powerful
environment that people can easily try and adopt. Plus, in some way it
would be easier than a desktop: with a desktop you need to be rather
tolerant to your host OS, while with an OS you can control everything
and thus propose original solutions (eg you can decide to use launchd,
rendezvous, etc.). If people want to adapt the desktop part on their
own os, they still can anyway.
[...]
Again, I agree. However, rather than creating another 'new' OS ('new'
because it would certainly be another derivative version of UNIX), I'd
preferably go with a 'stripped down' version of Darwin.
That is, 'stripped down' as in 'without DarwinPorts' where possible.
--
Chris
--
GMX DSL = Maximale Leistung zum minimalen Preis!
2000 MB nur 2,99, Flatrate ab 4,99 Euro/Monat: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl
___
Discuss-gnustep mailing list
Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep on the rise!
Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Sašo Kiselkov wrote: Of course, I'm not against a GNUstep-only-system (hell, I already did it as my graduation work at high school, complete with a CD-based installer, integrated workspace, it's own package management, etc.), is it downloadable? Well, sorry to disappoint you, but it's been more than a year back since I stopped working on it, and it's been my personal love affair anyways - nothing public. I never got to the stage where I would have to courage to release it, because from my point of view it simply wasn't mature enough. On top of that, I realized that it would have been quite nonsence trying to compete with projects like Debian in terms of number of packages available for my system, so I cut out the desktop part and continued work on that. It's available at http://openspace.adlerka.sk , but I don't have any time to continue working on it right now. Maybe in the future. If somebody wishes to continue it, I'd appreciate that - I use it daily myself ^_^. Sorry for being a bit off-topic here ... ^_^; Saso ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep on the rise!
On 2005-08-03 14:50:47 -0500, Tabitha McNerney [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Hi all, I have to say that when I read this about DRM and Apple Intel machines: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/01/0421248from=rss it made me realize even more so how important it is that GNUstep continue to rise to the forefront such that it can be installed on top of open source systems to avoid nasty DRM!!! -Tabitha You may be interested in reading http://osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=11455 . -- Trevor Fancher http://trev0r.org/ ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
RE: GNUstep on the rise!
Cris Vetter wrote: [...] [ GNUstep separate OS ] AFAIK, xMach is dead :-( So does anyone know how far Hurd is with respect to usability? [...] Sorry, I deleted the essential part of Cris' letter that I'm going to reply. I guess when Chris was talking exclusive GNUstep experience he meant the distribution, not the OS per se (kernel). It seems the obvious choice for that distribution would be the Linux kernel. As far as I understand, nothing in the kernel dictates unix standard FHS, unix standard configuration (/etc content), a type of window system or other things that might annoy a person who experienced NeXT ( I never did ). On the other hand it's well supported for several architchures and many periferal devices. Other post suggested Darwin, I believe it would be as good as Linux, but why to look for something else? Tima. ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
