Re: [DNG] meta: list
On Thu, 2022-09-08 at 11:29 +, jkinne...@yahoo.ca wrote: > Would anyone have the infrastructure to help us less advantaged FOSS > advocates > who got trampled on by big tech and the pandemic with the appropriate email > address > to stay involved in the discussion if this experiment happens? I don't understand the preceding question. > I just got here and I > love it. I'd otherwise need a bit more time if all the wise old veterans are > leaving to go > somewhere else :) Whoaaa! As far as I know, neither I nor anybody else was advocating changing or abandoning THIS list. I would be very against that. I thought we were talking about an SMTP that would bounce gmail krap and not bounce DMARC, DKIM, OATH2 and all the other clutterment the big boys are using to try to marginalize email so their walled gardens have no competition. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] meta: list
On Thu, 2022-09-08 at 10:29 +0200, marc wrote: > > I am considering starting an admin list, where one can only > subscribe with an address starting with admin@... and > perhaps only one admin@... per IP. I suggest a name other than admin@, because people are probably using admin@ for other purposes already. Maybe something like cleanmail@. I could subscribe with cleanm...@troubleshooters.com . I deleted your rant, but see a lot of value in your rant and would like to participate in your experiment, if you do it. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Keith Smith presents on Model View Controller best practices
Hi all, The Wednesday, September 7, 2022 GoLUG online meeting will start at the SPECIAL TIME of 6pm Eastern Daylight Time rather than the usual time. It will be at https://meet.jit.si/golug. Full information is at http://golug.info . PHP expert Keith Smith will outline the way he does the MVC (Model View Controller) web application methodology. This is important because there are many contradictory definitions of MVC out there, many of which lead to difficult to maintain volleyball code and inconsistent coding. Among other things, Keith will outline the following: * Main Benefits of MVC. * Philosophy of MVC. * The meaning and function of the Model, the View and the Controller. * Are there one or several Models? Views? Controllers? Web based MVC documentation differs on this point. * Which code to put in the Model, which to put in the View, and which to put in the Controller. * Tips on how to keep track of your classes, objects and methods, in order to code quick with a minimum of debugging. * Pitfalls to be careful of while coding MVC. If you're unfamiliar with MVC, or if you've gotten a bad impression of MVC due to careless web documentation, or if you use MVC but just want to gain more ideas and techniques, or if you create web applications or if you want to start creating web applications, this presentation is for you. SteveT Steve Litt GoLUG Publicity Coordinator ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Mixer for alsa
On Fri, 2022-09-02 at 21:50 +0200, aitor wrote: > Hi, > > On 24/8/22 3:35, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > I'll call it Gmixer for sure. > > Better publicize the hell out of the fact it has no connection with Gnome. > > The project is already finished, and finally I've decided to call it > amixer-gtk, > because most of the code in the backend is taken from amixer.c, by Jaroslav > Kysela: > > https://github.com/alsa-project/alsa-utils/tree/master/amixer > > Software .deb packages will be available this weekend. Any chance of my getting the source code to compile on my computer? SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Mixer for alsa
On Fri, 2022-08-26 at 16:24 -0700, Gregory Nowak via Dng wrote: > On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 04:23:38PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > Is it my imagination, or does amixer not have a command to list all cards, > > with > > their card numbers and maybe device numbers? If this capability is really > > missing, > > it's quite an omission, as it forces one to trial and error cards. > > No, not really. There is a list of cards in /proc/asound/cards. > > Greg Cool, that's all that's needed. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Mixer for alsa
On Wed, 2022-08-24 at 11:57 -0700, Gregory Nowak via Dng wrote: > On Tue, Aug 23, 2022 at 10:42:15PM -1000, Joel Roth via Dng wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 10:20:23AM +0200, al3xu5 via Dng wrote: > > > - other mixers for alsa? I do not know... > > > > aumix has an ncurses interactive mode much simpler than > > alsamixer, and also a command line mode. > > amixer has met my needs nicely for a number of years. Takes some > getting used to, but the simplicity makes it worth the effort for me. Is it my imagination, or does amixer not have a command to list all cards, with their card numbers and maybe device numbers? If this capability is really missing, it's quite an omission, as it forces one to trial and error cards. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Mixer for alsa
On Tue, 2022-08-23 at 21:34 +0200, aitor wrote: > I'll call it Gmixer for sure. Better publicize the hell out of the fact it has no connection with Gnome. In 2013 I kicked every KDE executable and library off my computer for the same reason I never let systemd onto my computers. Nowadays, I check dependencies of any new software I want to put on or any software updates, and if they start with k, I either decline to install or research carefully. I fear you'll face similar discrimination with Gmixer. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Mixer for alsa
On Wed, 2022-08-24 at 10:24 +1000, terryc wrote: > On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 21:34:09 +0200 > aitor wrote: > > > > I'll call it Gmixer for sure. > > FYI. I mentally associate g-something with gnome. > Similarly k-something with kde. > You may or may not want the association. OTOH, it may not matter now. Alsamixer works very well for me. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Another problem you won't have without Systemd (or separate oomd)
On Sat, 2022-08-20 at 10:20 +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Hi! > > You cannot make this up, can you? > > Bug 2119518 - GNOME being OOM killed during basic use on VM with 2G of > RAM > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2119518 Martin, after reading this, I think it's not a bug but a feature. It has the positive effect of sending anybody stupid enough to use BOTH systemd and Gnome off their computer and back onto their slide rule, where they belong. Now if they could only get systemd on their slide rule... > > It still seems to be that people think adding complexity comes without > risk of malfunction. No doubt about it. A lot of folks not only fail to see the risk, but they worship complexity. Did you know there's now a bicycle derailleur that works via Bluetooth, so you have to have a very breakable electronic control device on board, and somebody can hack your derailleur? The derailleur costs hundreds, and it's sealed shut with no hope of repair. The bicycle mechanic at the local bicycle store spoke lavishly of this derailleur technology. They're flying off the shelves at your local bicycle store. A BRIEF HISTORY OF BICYCLE DERAILLEURS: Before 1971, dominated by Huret and Simplex, derailleurs were so poorly designed and so imprecisely made that you had to pull back too far on the derailleur cable shift lever, wait for the derailleur to shift, and then correctly place the handle. Shifting could take up to five seconds. But at least you could twiddle it to hit any gear regardless of cable friction, derailleur friction and/or slop, or chain/gear wear. And at least you could use any shit lever with any derailleur and gear cluster. 1971: Suntour comes out with their Slant Pantagraph derailleur mechanism, Shimano's cheap but precision made derailleurs appear in bike shops. Same shifting process, but much less overpull and correction. Shifting is much easier and quicker, with sub-second shifts a reality. Early 1980's: With improved Suntour and Shimano shifters, improved chain technology and gear design, shifting is almost effortless and instantanious, with very little overpull/correction. Late 1980's: Indexed shifters appear. The promise: No more overpull and correction, just click it. And it worked as long as all aspects of the derailleur were properly adjusted, there was little or no wear on the chain and chainwheel, everything was lubricated perfectly, and the proper shift lever was paired with the specific chainwheel. In practice, on less than perfectly maintained bikes, the five second shift was back. Another problem: If you replaced your 5 gear rear gear cog with a 6 gear, you had to buy a whole new shift lever with matching gear clicks and cable pull. You've come a long way, baby! Early 1990's: To be "aerodynamic", and more to the point pretty, cables were routed under the handlebar tape. This made basic maintenance much more difficult, and less maintenance led to worse shifting. Early 00's: Derailleur shift levers became "integrated" with the brake levers. Now, if your derailleur wore out or you just wanted a better one, and the new derailleur needed either more cable pull or less cable pull than the original, you needed to change the shift lever, as always, but this time you had to change the whole shifting and braking system. The 1981 bike owner just slapped on a new derailleur when the old one wore out. In the new "integrated" era, if the derailleur required different cable pull, you needed to replace the whole brake/derailleur handle with another that accommodated the combination of brakes and new derailleur. If you think they could just use a circa 1980 bolt-on down tube shift lever and leave the one in the brake lever fallow, think again. Bicycle tubes were no longer standard diameters, so you probably couldn't get such bolt-on downtube shifters. Was Lennart in on this "improvement"? Just a question. Late 2010's: Bluetooth shifting. Press a button on the handlebars, and a USB rechargeable battery driven servo motor mounted (with cable ties) on the back seat stay pulls a cable to operate the derailleur. Benefit, shorter and straighter cable run. This item, which is separate from the derailleur, costs roughly $300.00. And heaven help you if you're on a cross country bike trip and can't recharge it. At least the derailleur and servo motor are separate items. Early 2020's: Poettering's dream fulfilled: The bluetooth equipped serveo motor has now been moved into the the derailleur itself. Any repair to the derailleur, which is now well into the 3 figure price range, requires a long time to send it to specialists certified to repair it. Meanwhile, you bicycle sits unrideable. You're right. Some people worship complexity, in software and everything else. You can't make this stuff up. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] connman missing from system menu
On Thu, 2022-08-18 at 12:20 +1000, wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote: > > > > On 18 Aug 2022, at 02:52, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > My experience with LXDE and Openbox is that the system menu is pretty much > > given > > to > > you on LXDE/Openbox install. My experience based on LXDE and Openbox on > > Ubuntu, > > Debian and Void is that installing a package doesn't put the package's > > executable in > > the LXDE or Openbox system menu. This is why I use dmenu as my main menu. > > Dmenu > > is > > faster and requires no mouse. > > > > SteveT > > Can dmenu search and run applications from .desktop files like the xfce4- > appfinder, or does it just search through executables in bin/ directories? > I’ve > been looking for an xfce4-appfinder replacement without dbus dependency. > > Tom If all your .desktop files are in the same directory, you could write a simple companion shellscript to list them, allow you to select one, and run it. As far as dbus, at 14 I walked a mile to dbus in order to go to dschool. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] connman missing from system menu
On Wed, 2022-08-17 at 06:20 -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > connman is missing from the system menu of my 32-bit laptop running chimaera. > I have installed: > connman-gtk verion 1.1.1+git20180626.b72c6ab-2 > connman version 1.36-2.2 > connman-ui version 0-20150623-1 > The menu item is absent from the system menus in lxqt, and in xfce. > What am I missing? Hi Hendrik, My experience with LXDE and Openbox is that the system menu is pretty much given to you on LXDE/Openbox install. My experience based on LXDE and Openbox on Ubuntu, Debian and Void is that installing a package doesn't put the package's executable in the LXDE or Openbox system menu. This is why I use dmenu as my main menu. Dmenu is faster and requires no mouse. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Init respawns - was: Be prepared for the fall of systemd
On Sat, 2022-08-06 at 08:36 +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 05/08/2022 à 07:36, Steve Litt a écrit : > > Perfectionists never finish, and the perfect is the enemy of the good. > > This is absolutely true. But ... > > perfection can be approached when we keep things "simple stupid". > For example the init script suggested by Karl: > > > for i in /etc/rcS.d/S* /etc/rc2.d/S* > > do > > $i start > > done > > doesn't need a maintaining community, Yes it does. The scripts in those directories are extremely complicated, assuming they're from sysvinit or OpenRC. Of course, they could be refactored to be very simple, at the cost of screwing up in corner cases. > and you also consider runit > is simple enough to fall in the same category. Absolutely. Runit run scripts are tiny, simple and straightforward. It's easy to write your own. The C code for Runit is so simple I could take over the project if I had to. > > Often, simplifying a problem till the solution is clear and > obvious, can take a lot of time, but it deserves the effort. It is > sometimes possible. Very, very true. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Be prepared for the fall of systemd
On Thu, 2022-08-04 at 14:53 -0700, Bruce Perens via Dng wrote: > > This goes way back. Mach did lightweight messaging and more (and survives > in MacOS, I think), Plan 9 did the graphics API == window system API. I pretty much like GNU/Linux just as it is, but I'd love to have a sane graphics built into the OS so I don't need to choose between entangled mess X and forever second-rate tragically modern Wayland. I wonder how the OS for the Atari ST did graphics. Now THAT was a machine! SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Init respawns - was: Be prepared for the fall of systemd
On Thu, 2022-08-04 at 17:36 -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Thu, Aug 04, 2022 at 04:06:18AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > ... > > > > When I write Free Software, I'm one of those "meh, good enough" guys, > > although > > I'd > > phrase it "Awww Riiight, good enough!". The reason is that perfectionists > > never > > finish. > > Might this be why we're using linux instead of Hurd? I never thought of it, but it's a possible cause of Hurd never taking the lead. One of the very smart things Linus did was to forego the pie-in-the-sky dream of the theorists, the microkernel, to do the kernel he could actually get done all by himself, the regular kernel. I'm reminded of Perl6, which in 1999 we all knew was going to take over the world. Heck, Sams Publishing offered to have me be the main author of an upcoming Perl6 Unleashed. But instead of just fixing a few of Perl 5's biggest problem, they shot for the moon, during which time Python and Ruby gladly claimed all of Perl's mindshare. Today Perl 6 is a language called Raku, and for all I know it's a great language, but in the persuit of the perfect at the turn of the century they gave up the good, and now Raku is a minor league player. When I started the VimOutliner project, instead of writing it from scratch, I used Vim as the engine and just added a few scripts. So I was able to create and release it in about a week. Examples abound: Eric Raymond's fetchmail. Runit, which is so simple I could maintain it if I had to. The various NetworkManager alternatives that have sprung up at Devuan. Perfectionists never finish, and the perfect is the enemy of the good. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Init respawns - was: Be prepared for the fall of systemd
On Thu, 2022-08-04 at 16:01 +0200, k...@aspodata.se wrote: > Steve Litt: > > On Wed, 2022-08-03 at 09:36 +0200, marc wrote: > > > Karl Hammar > > > > Steve Litt: > ... > > > > 1) Does Busybox init require the daemon to background itself? > > > So I seem no reason why "nohup daemon > /var/log/logfile &" isn't > > > sufficient > > > for this, or is there something I am not aware of ? > > > > The preceding involves PID files, which can get mixed up or stale. Also, the > > nohup.out file can grow to a monstrosity, although that can be handled (no > > pun > > intended) by redirection to /dev/null. > ... > > There is no requirement of pid files in the above. The notion of pid > files comes from some req. that you should be able to do > ./some_script stop. I do sv stop daemonname all the time. > If you don't care about scripts like thoose in > /etc/init.d there is no need for pid files, and if you manage the > startup and shutdown of single processes on your own then the ps > output is sufficient. What if there are two of them running, or two processes so close in text that it's hard to grep between them? I've done stuff like looking at the ps output or searching thru /proc, but I always felt a little insecure when doing so. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Be prepared for the fall of systemd
On Wed, 2022-08-03 at 15:36 -0700, Bruce Perens wrote: > I came to the conclusion a while back that systemd was symptomatic of the > fact that we had gone as far as the fundamental assumptions of the Unix API > could take us. I find it symptomatic of the fact that a guy wrote some Rube Goldberg code and a corporation decided it would be a great idea to spend millions getting the Rube Goldberg code into many major distros. As far as us running our of road with the Unix API, systemd solves no problem and offers no improvement that couldn't have been solved or improved in a dozen different ways, almost all of which would have been more modular and less prone to vendor lock in. [snip] > There is room for replacement of systemd and continuation of Linux and BSD. Exactly! And if Redhat/IBM ever stops spending millions per year to keep systemd from collapsing under its own weight, that room becomes a necessity. > But we should be looking forward to something else as the next OS paradigm. In the preceding sentence, I'd change the "But" to "Also". SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Be prepared for the fall of systemd
On Wed, 2022-08-03 at 17:19 +, J.R. Hill wrote: > There are a few things that need to be in place for a smooth transition. > > For general trust in the project... > > 1. the init system itself should be maintained by more than a single human. This hasn't been the case with runit. It's so darn simple people *do* trust it, even though it was written by one guy and he stepped away. > 2. the maintainers should be willing to respond to a large audience. (If a > project > is used widely across distributions and is critical to operation and security, > it'll attract attention from armies of newbies and large cloud corporations > alike.) This means there needs to be an ability to move slow (maintain > backwards > compatibility) and also to move fast (in security situations) True. All I can say is runit does one thing and does it well, appears to have no known security flaws, has a small attack surface, so there's little call for updates. > 3. the project should be available from some trusted platform with versioning > and > source history. > > For ease of transition... > > 4. many init scripts need to exist, or they need to be trivial to write. The originator of runit gives many example scripts, AND they are trivial to write. See http://smarden.org/runit/runscripts.html . > > I'll give some thoughts on runit: > > I'll start by saying that I've used Void linux for a few years now, and I love > using runit. It's simple, it works, and it's understandable. That's the > opposite > of my experience with systemd. I'm not passionately against systemd (or the > developers, or RedHat, or even IBM), and I think systemd is technically > impressive > and ambitious. But also I don't really want to use it or anything like it. > > > It's maintained by the Void Linux project... > > Unfortunately I don't think this is true. It's used by Void, but we're > packaging > it by building from the source tarball like anyone else. I guess what I meant was https://github.com/void-linux/runit . That's the source code, maintained by the Void Linux project, and it's up to individual distros to package it for their distro. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Init respawns - was: Be prepared for the fall of systemd
On Wed, 2022-08-03 at 09:36 +0200, marc wrote: > > Thanks Karl, > > > > Some questions: > > Hello > > > 1) Does Busybox init require the daemon to background itself? > > So I seem no reason why "nohup daemon > /var/log/logfile &" isn't sufficient > for this, or is there something I am not aware of ? The preceding involves PID files, which can get mixed up or stale. Also, the nohup.out file can grow to a monstrosity, although that can be handled (no pun intended) by redirection to /dev/null. > > > 2) Does Busybox init give you a reasonable way to automatically restart the > > process > > after the process terminates? > > > > 3) Does Busybox init give you the choice of auto-restart or not for each > > different > > process? If it does, that's something specifically missing in Runit. > > At the risk of pinning my own interpretation on this: > > I suppose for quick, dirty and crashy hacks maybe automated restarts > are useful to paper over some problems. But if the daemon you are running > is likely to crash, it might also just hang in an infinite loop or > leak file descriptors, or fill up a partition or grind through swap, things > that a respawn doesn't really solve ... True. > > We are often told that "thesedays computers are cheap and programmers are > expensive" as an excuse for writing flaky software, and from the perspective > of the greedy and immortal AI that is a corporation, this makes sense - a > bit of bespoke software, even if flaky, might do the work of a human more > quickly and cheaper while the costs are externalised. True. > > But the free software universe things are different - unreliable or > bloated software wastes the time and hardware resources of thousands, perhaps > millions of people. And even if you are happy to ignore the environmental > costs (electricity, more hardware bought more often), then maybe some > other reasoning might be persuasive: I certainly often marvel at the > craftsmanship of people from previous ages - from as small as an excellent > hand tool to as expansive as a church, mosque or similar - those things were > made > not "meh, good enough", but as good as humanly possible, and I would > think that the free software world has some similarities there - while > software might be written to scratch an itch, the solution is often > created for the joy of it, for the satisfaction of building something > really good - be it just for fun, the desire to leave a legacy or > building a contemplative mandala. > > TL;DR: just install better daemons ;) Most of what you write above is true, but a lot of times it's just nicer to have the daemon get restarted, along with a note in a log somewhere as to what happened. Sometimes restarting can risk damage so you don't want to restart. Other times, assuming the crashes or unintended exits aren't common, it's better to have the daemon always up. When I write Free Software, I'm one of those "meh, good enough" guys, although I'd phrase it "Awww Riiight, good enough!". The reason is that perfectionists never finish. And if I left a bug, I'll hear about it soon enough and can fix it. In C I tend to use assert() for error checking, which is about as crude as you can get. But whenever I see or hear about one of those asserts() actually firing, I replace it with real error handling. If I were to put in real error handling on every fopen() and calloc() and NULL check on initial authoring, I'd lose my train of thought and never finish. So I use assert() for the time being. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Be prepared for the fall of systemd
On Tue, 2022-08-02 at 11:25 +0200, k...@aspodata.se wrote: > Steve Litt: > ... > > * Runit > > * S6 > ... > > Why not busybox init, it handles gettys and the rest is up to > /etc/rcS, which you are free to make it do whatever you like. > > As a direct replacement for sysv init, you can use > for i in /etc/rcS.d/S* /etc/rc2.d/S* > do > $i start > done > > in rcS and similar for shutdown. Thanks Karl, Some questions: 1) Does Busybox init require the daemon to background itself? 2) Does Busybox init give you a reasonable way to automatically restart the process after the process terminates? 3) Does Busybox init give you the choice of auto-restart or not for each different process? If it does, that's something specifically missing in Runit. Thanks, SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] GoLUG online presentation: DIY Spellchecker: My Adventures and Misadventures
Hi all, Wednesday Evening, August 3, 2022, at 7pm Eastern Daylight time, the monthly GoLUG online meeting will be a discussion about all things FOSS: The Linux kernel, the GNU utils, periperals, drivers, application software, programming techniques and anything else FOSS. Anyone and everyone can speak and participate. When: 7pm Eastern Daylight time on Wednesday, August 3, 2022. Where: https://meet.jit.si/golug Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt GoLUG Publicity Coordinator Greater Orlando Linux User Group ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Wrong subject for GoLUG meeting
Hi all, The GoLUG meeting announcement sent out a few minutes ago had the wrong subject. The corrected subject is: GoLUG online presentation: General FOSS presentation Thanks, SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Mon, 2022-08-01 at 09:29 -0500, goli...@devuan.org wrote: > This "review" that has everybody's knickers in a twist is a tempest in a > teapot. Let it go. Instead of getting all worked up about it, get even > by joining the Devuan team and contributing something useful towards our > next release, Daedalus . . . > > golinux Your post reminded me I haven't donated for awhile, so I just donated a small amount off money to Devuan. My skills include neither packaging, C++ nor aesthetics, so the best I can do to help further Devuan is to donate. Thanks for the reminder. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Mon, 2022-08-01 at 09:29 -0500, goli...@devuan.org wrote: > On 2022-08-01 01:33, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Sun, 2022-07-31 at 13:29 +0100, Peter Duffy wrote: > > > Is it worth while considering putting a link to the article on > > > devuan.org, together with a response answering the criticisms in > > > detail? > > > > Yes. > > > > SteveT > > > > > > No, NO and N! devuan.org is NOT a social media site. FULL STOP! > > It is an informational website that provides an historical overview, > technical information and where to go for support. PERIOD. Whoaa, I didn't mean it had to come from Devuan.Org. You made some alternative suggestions. Those would be fine if they get plenty of public exposure. > > This "review" that has everybody's knickers in a twist is a tempest in a > teapot. I view it as an opportunity to sway others to our way of thinking and grow the population using Devuan. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Mon, 2022-08-01 at 11:39 +0100, Peter Duffy wrote: > On Sun, 2022-07-31 at 09:09 -0500, goli...@devuan.org wrote: > > On 2022-07-31 07:29, Peter Duffy wrote: > > > > > > Is it worth while considering putting a link to the article on > > > devuan.org, together with a response answering the criticisms in > > > detail? > > > > > > > devuan.org is not a social news service for trivia. If any Devuan > > articles were to be posted, it should be these: > > > > http://dev1galaxy.org/files/Linux_Magazine_171_Reprint_Devuan.pdf > > http://dev1galaxy.org/files/Linux_Magazine_Reprint_Devuan.pdf > > > > But beating our own drum publicly invites a response and we really > > don't > > need to stir that pot again . . . IMO, of course. > > > > We are #2 in Distrowatch rankings (from user reviews not ratings ie > > the > > bean counter). That speaks for itself. Run silent, run deep . . . > > > > golinux > > For what it's worth, here's my own view. The article makes claims > about, and accusations against, devuan which either deliberately or > from misconceptions are clearly erroneous. The question is whether or > not these claims could damage the reputation of devuan and put people > off trying it. If not - we don't need to do anything. But if so - there > should be a rebuttal of the claims and accusations. One true thing is that the author chose to put us in the top 5 sans-systemd OSes. Therefore, we probably shouldn't go in antagonistally. I'd take the route of saying "thanks for recognizing the quality of Devuan. The association for the furtherance of Devuan has a few more things to add..." It's basically an "and" rather than a "but", and keeps away defensiveness. As far as "the association for the furtherance of Devuan", change that to anything indicating this comes from a lot of people and not just one. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Be prepared for the fall of systemd
Hi all, As I said in a previous message, I see sentiment very slowly turning against systemd. If systemd keeps losing popularity, I have no doubt the corporate carpetbaggers will try to force an even worse atrocity on us, so we need to be ready this time and not have the argument centered on a false choice. I see two init systems ready to take the baton and run with it: * Runit * S6 Runit is the simplest init system other than /bin/bash or an rc script. It's maintained by the Void Linux project, so hit hard at the FUDdists who claim runit is unmaintained. S6 is advancing full speed to a complete solution, implementing all the best features of systemd, but these features are voluntary and separable. If you want top quality, choice and performance, and are willing to accept a little more complexity (but sane complexity), S6 plus its service manager is the way to go. In my opinion, S6 plus its service manager offers more than OpenRC, and IMHO it's easier to configure/manage. If and when systemd falls, we need to be ready, so we can get the right init system, instead yet another corporate sponsored Rube Goldberg Machine. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Sun, 2022-07-31 at 09:09 -0500, goli...@devuan.org wrote: > On 2022-07-31 07:29, Peter Duffy wrote: > > > > Is it worth while considering putting a link to the article on > > devuan.org, together with a response answering the criticisms in > > detail? > > > [snip] > > But beating our own drum publicly invites a response and we really don't > need to stir that pot again . . . IMO, of course. As you know, I'm a huge believer in beating one's own drum, and I think in this case it would be an excellent idea. As far as stirring the pot, I see your point --- lots of poisoned arrows will be aimed our way, but we can rebut with the single word "hater", which is of course an ad hominem logical fallacy, but those guys won't know the difference. Also, I think public opinion is slowly building against systemd, so we're likely to benefit from a dustup. Finally, with very few exceptions, any publicity is good pulicity. > > We are #2 in Distrowatch rankings (from user reviews not ratings ie the > bean counter). That speaks for itself. Run silent, run deep . . . You refer to https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=ranking . Holy cow: 4 of the top 6 are sans-systemd. Goes to what I said about public opinion slowly building against systemd. Congratulations to the Devuan team for this spectacular achievement. The Debianistas said you were bluffing. Devuan's #2, Debian's #13 in these ratings rankings. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Sun, 2022-07-31 at 13:29 +0100, Peter Duffy wrote: > Is it worth while considering putting a link to the article on > devuan.org, together with a response answering the criticisms in > detail? Yes. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Sat, 2022-07-30 at 17:10 +0200, Antony Stone wrote: > On Saturday 30 July 2022 at 16:47:59, Steve Litt wrote: > > > Inconvenient to newbies? LOL, compare it to *too or Slackware :-) > > Have I missed something - are there spinoffs from Gentoo which also end in > too? > > Just intrigued at your (twice, now) use of the wildcard. Gentoo was created by Daniel Robbins. At some point in time Daniel left Gentoo and created Funtoo. They're similar. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Sat, 2022-07-30 at 16:42 +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 30/07/2022 à 12:07, Steve Litt a écrit : > > I thought most of the Devuan review was accurate and complimentary. However, > > I've > > never thought of Devuan as "retro" or particularly inconvenient for newbies. > > It's Debian itself which is known as inconvenient to newbies, hence > Devuan, of course (~: Inconvenient to newbies? LOL, compare it to *too or Slackware :-) SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Sat, 2022-07-30 at 09:26 -0300, Fernando M. Maresca via Dng wrote: > I, however, really don't know if the author is malicious or simply ignorant; > these days there's a hord of people that think Debian's difficult. I > don't know why. I can think of only one reason: Debian's idealogical purity preventing proprietary drivers and firmware from being loaded on installation. And maybe Ubuntu and Mint have better hardware recognition. Hey, I used Ubuntu for six years: It's dead-bang easy. But sooner or later you outgrow all that handholding that now seems like holding you back, and it's time to move to Devuan or Void. And if those ever seem too handholding, Slackware, *too, Arch variants without systemd, and *BSD beckon. You know why I quit Ubuntu and switched to Debian? Because for the life of me, I couldn't get rid of Plymouth and couldn't boot to CLI without renaming executables or putting exit 0 in shellscripts. When you're doing stuff like that, it's time to move away from Ubuntu. Ironically, just as I moved to Debian, Debian moved to systemd. His criticism about "oldschool, not gui enough" is better applied to Void (and of course Slackware) than Devuan. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Sat, 2022-07-30 at 13:14 +0200, tito via Dng wrote: > On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 06:07:53 -0400 > Steve Litt wrote: > > > On Fri, 2022-07-29 at 14:27 +0200, tito via Dng wrote: > > > https://linuxiac.com/best-systemd-free-linux-distributions/ > > > > > > I think the author knows nothing about devuan and spreads FUD > > > > > > > I thought most of the Devuan review was accurate and complimentary. However, > > I've > > never thought of Devuan as "retro" or particularly inconvenient for newbies. > > > > SteveT > > Hi, > > FUD:"And now we come to the last Linux distro on our list, where things get > extreme. > This is because we’re not just discussing another systemd-free Linux > distribution, > but one on a mission against systemd. But first, let me explain what this is > all > about." > > Devuan is on a mission for init system freedom not against something. We, technically yes, but I've met few people in the Devuan sphere who don't have a negative opinion of systemd. Also, if I remember correctly, and golinux can check my memories, the original debianfork.org "don't panic and keep on forking" page didn't use the words "init freedom", and was pretty negative about systemd. By the way, as you probably know, I'm both pro-init-freedom and anti-systemd. > > FUD: "Unfortunately, its widespread adoption is hampered by several factors." > > Of the listed distributions only MX and Slackware rank betteer on > distrowatch.com, > the other > rank at about the same positions as Devuan. True. > > "First, due to the distribution’s establishment by a group of old-school Linux > administrators, > many of its features are reminiscent of Linux distributions from 15 or more > years > ago." Yeah, that statement's stupid. EVERY distro has plenty of things that haven't changed in 15 years. And bitching about it being old invokes the "Appeal to Novelty" logical fallacy. > > "To use and understand Devuan, you must change your mindset and perception of > the > distribution’s > core beliefs. Because, in my perspective, Devuan is first philosophy and > secondarily a Linux distribution." > T H A T ' S J U S T I N S A N E ! Nobody, and I mean nobody, goes to the incredible trouble of making a distro to express a philosophy. I owe a debt of gratitude to the VUAs who, against all odds, forked Debian and recruited enough people to make that fork a success. > FUD: to use devuan you have just to keep the mindset you had with previous > versions of Debian. I think one selling point of Devuan is that it's a Debian workalike in many ways. A lot of people loved Debian but hated systemd. Devuan gave those people an alternative not involving switching to BSD, Void, MX, *too, etc. The author just expressed this selling point in a negative way. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Sat, 2022-07-30 at 12:55 +0200, Antony Stone wrote: > > I'm rather more amazed that he labels Devuan (and therefore by extension > Debian too) as "retro" and yet gives a pretty complimentary review, in > comparison, of Slackware! ROFLMAO you're right. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Fri, 2022-07-29 at 14:27 +0200, tito via Dng wrote: > https://linuxiac.com/best-systemd-free-linux-distributions/ > > I think the author knows nothing about devuan and spreads FUD > I thought most of the Devuan review was accurate and complimentary. However, I've never thought of Devuan as "retro" or particularly inconvenient for newbies. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
Syeed Ali said on Wed, 13 Jul 2022 13:31:37 -0700 >Microsoft has a great interest in embracing Linux via WSL with the >intent to obsolete the need to dual boot. With many critical >distributions and software requiring systemd, it only makes sense to >make sure that WSL has complete support; indeed better support than on >Linux. Combined Windows and WSL can thereby be extended nicely in ways >pure Linux cannot. Syeed, Your paragraphs contained the words "embracing" and "extended". You forgot the word "extinquish". :-) SteveT Steve Litt Summer 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] s6: was Lennart now working for Microsoft
wirelessduck--- via Dng said on Sun, 10 Jul 2022 00:06:13 +1000 >Here’s to hoping that Laurent Bercot’s (skarnet) new process >supervision software arrives and is ready to go before any potential >systemd implosion occurs. You can use s6 as a pure process supervisor today, by using sysvinit as PID1 only and running all processes off s6. You can do the same thing with runit. >Does anyone know where we can keep track of progress on that project? Yes. The supervision mailing list: supervision: Discussion about system services, daemon supervision, init, runlevel management, and tools such as s6 and runit. To subscribe, send an empty message to supervision-subscr...@list.skarnet.org. >His website hasn’t seen any updates since the funding announcement a >long time ago. > >https://skarnet.com/projects/service-manager.html The preceding web page is a project manifesto, not a report on progress. My understanding is that for the reasonable things we Devuaners do every day, the s6-linux-init and s6-rc programs are already capable of creating an s6 only init system with an s6 PID1. My impression is what Laurent is working on now is the (unwise) incorporation of better written versions of all systemd features. Just as a humorous aside, years ago I created something called the LittKit API that would make any Daemontools, Daemontools-encore, runit or s6 supervisor init with a specific order and intermix one-shot and long-run processes. The API implementation must be changed slightly for each one of those supervisors, but the API interface remains the same. You can see the LittKit proof of concept at http://troubleshooters.com/projects/littkit/ and http://troubleshooters.com/linux/diy/suckless_init_on_plop.htm . Speaking just for myself in my 7 years of runit, indeterminate startup is not a problem if you put dependency tests into your run scripts. Common sense says that indeterminate startup would be a bad thing, but I've not run across disadvantages. If I ever wanted determinate process startup, I could either use s6 plus s6-rc, or I could apply LittKit to runit. SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Lennart now working for Microsoft
Martin Steigerwald said on Fri, 08 Jul 2022 13:43:30 +0200 >Hi! > >How come that I am not surprised? Me neither. On first seeing the headline, I thought "what's new about that?", because in my mind redhat is stored in the same compartment as microsoft and I confuse the two. > >I said it back then already that Systemd adoption followed a similar >pattern to Microsoft's "embrace, extend, and extinguish" tactics. >(They are still following the very same pattern, this time with Office >365.) > >Well… I won't miss him. I hope he stops developing for Linux >altogether. What scares me is if he starts putting Microsoft-centric stuff in systemd, Linux will need to either migrate away from systemd or be subsumed by microsoft. SteveT Steve Litt Summer 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The word is irony
al3xu5 via Dng said on Fri, 8 Jul 2022 12:57:49 +0200 > >Fri, 8 Jul 2022 05:29:05 -0400 - Haines Brown : > >> https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Systemd-Creator-Microsoft >> The word is irony > >Disgust also. He never did like Linux, comparing it unfavorably to windows and Mac. Wait till systemd starts acquiring windows only characteristics. SteveT Steve Litt Summer 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linux Pro Magazine revisits Devuan
Max Hyre said on Tue, 5 Jul 2022 18:37:50 -0400 > but I can at least slip the distro a few >dollars to defray my continuous downloads. How does one give the distro a few dollars? SteveT Steve Litt Summer 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] GoLUG online presentation: DIY Spellchecker: My Adventures and Misadventures
Hi all, Wednesday Evening, July 6, 2022, at 7pm Eastern Daylight time, you can attend the "DIY Spellchecker: My Adventures and Misadventures" presentation at the monthly GoLUG online meeting. Plenty of questions, answers and laughs. You can see all the details, the good, the bad and the ugly, at http://golug.info . When: 7pm Eastern Daylight time on Wednesday, July 6, 2022. Starts right on time. Where: https://meet.jit.si/golug For more information: See http://golug.info Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt GoLUG Publicity Coordinator Greater Orlando Linux User Group ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] starting mysql in background ?
Radisson via Dng said on Wed, 15 Jun 2022 09:10:19 +0200 >Hello list, >i would like to start my mysqld 8.0 in background because it takes >several minutes to start. > >Does someone have a solution ? I don't know if this is a solution, but install runit as a process supervisor, not as an init. Start it respawn from /etc/inittab, and start mysqld and everything that depends on it's being up in runit. If you decide to do this, I can be of more help. SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Steve Litt presents "HTML and CSS: What you need to know"
Hi all, Wednesday Evening, June 1, 2022, at 7pm Eastern Daylight time Steve Litt gives his "HTML and CSS: What you need to know" presentation at the monthly GoLUG online meeting. When: 7pm Eastern Daylight time on Wednesday, June 1, 2022. Starts right at 7pm Eastern Daylight Time. Where: https://meet.jit.si/golug Subject: HTML and CSS: What you need to know. HTML is the foundation of web page construction. No matter what tools you use, they eventually boil down to HTML. CSS (Cascading Style Sheets) is the modern foundation of web page appearance, decoration, and to some extent behavior. All quality tools eventually apply appearances via CSS. Consider the following: * A deep understanding of HTML and CSS improves understanding of higher level web construction tools. * A deep understanding of HTML and CSS gives the term "full stack developer" a whole new meaning. * Making your HTML5 also well-formed XML yields huge benefits in debugging, portability, and getting the output you envisioned. Doing this is trivially easy. * HTML and CSS are all that's necessary to make a responsive, mobile-friendly web page. * A deep understanding of HTML and CSS plus a zen-coding editor often make direct HTML/CSS authoring easier and quicker than some of the higher level tools. * A deep understanding of CSS makes a world of difference in the appearance of quick-author methods such as Markdown, Asciidoc, and reStructuredText. Get the best of both worlds. * Markdown (or other "wiki" languages) plus tokens plus simple Python programming plus a deep knowledge of HTML and CSS produces amazing results from the fastest authoring environments. * Each HTML element has a peer in the Document Object Model (DOM), making it easy to implement Javascript solutions or modify with an XML parser (assuming the HTML5 is also XML). Topics discussed include the following: * Container type HTML elements * Non-container type HTML elements * Making your HTML5 also be well-formed XML - Debugging your XMLized HTML5 . Much easier than debugging non-XML HTML5 * The extreme benefits of styles-based authoring * Structure of a CSS Style * HTML5 validation * Making your page responsive - Mobile-first authoring * Mobile-friendly testing If you have anything to do with web authoring or would like to in the future, this presentation is for you. What is GoLUG? Greater Orlando Linux User Group, Orlando Florida. Who will be there? Folks from Orlando Florida, all over the United States, and likely internationally. Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt GoLUG Publicity Coordinator Greater Orlando Linux User Group ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] New build + extras
o1bigtenor via Dng said on Mon, 30 May 2022 17:03:56 -0500 >Greetings > >I am investing in a new system. >(Ryzen 7 5800X + Ryzen 570 gpu) You're going to be very, very pleased with your finished product. 16 high speed threads can tame the toughest online video chat or javascript-encumbered website. I have a couple suggestions: 1) 105 watts is a hot, hot processor. Make sure you have a CPU cooler more than capable of cooling it, and make sure that cooler is built to work for years, because if it stops working, it could damage your CPU. Because the CPU is throwing off so much heat, you'll need extra fannage to cool your entire box. If you can fit 200mm fans, those are excellent CFM/noise ratio. 2) You've got a spectacular processor, so make sure it's got RAM to match. I'd recommend 64GB RAM. You never know what VMs you'll need to spin up in the future, or the bloaticity of future software. In December 2021 I built a box with AMD Ryzen 5 3600 6-Core 12-thread processor, 64GB RAM, a 2TB NVMe for /, and a 14TB 7200 spinning rust for mountpoints (I use my computer as a file cabinet, among other things). I can't tell you how pleased I am with this setup. Yours is going to be even more powerful than mine. SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] New build + extras
o1bigtenor said on Mon, 30 May 2022 21:16:02 -0500 >On Mon, May 30, 2022 at 8:55 PM Steve Litt >wrote: >> >> o1bigtenor via Dng said on Mon, 30 May 2022 17:07:44 -0500 >> >> >On Mon, May 30, 2022 at 5:03 PM o1bigtenor >> >> >Not trying to start any kind of 'holy war' but was thinking of using >> >SysV init unless there are some great arguments where another option >> >is better - - - that is something that needs its own advice. >> >> Before I continue, I was quite happy with sysvinit 1998 to whenever >> upstart took over. Sysvinit does the job. >> >> In my opinion the difference between sysvinit and OpenRC is not >> enough to walk away from the familiar sysvinit. >> >> Now, because runit exists, I would never again start up my daemons >> using sysvinit. Instead, I would do one of the two following: >> >> 1: Use sysvinit for PID1, and: >> A: Start runit in /etc/inittab as a respawn >> B: For each daemon: >> i: Disable the daemon in sysvinit >> ii: Enable it in runit >> >> 2: Use runit as a complete init system >> >> If I were using Devuan (my Daily Driver Desktop (DDD) is Void), I >> would choose alternative 1 because it's simple and sticks with what >> I know. If I were using a native runit distro like Void I'd use >> alternative 2. >> >> I think #1 is a great way to slowly wade from the shallow end of to >> the deep end. >> >So on a complicated system - - - - this sounds like things could get >sorta interesting. I have some 14+ GB of software in my /usr partition >so I don't think I'm into straightforward stuff (LOL). Dunno what this >would be like in real life. > >I need to make a decision quickly because the new system will >hopefully be here by the end of the week and then its assemble >and start the loading!! Then use sysvinit, and then, at your leasure, slowly move more and more to runit. > >How does runit improve things from SysV? Thousands of ways. No more PID files to go corrupt or unerased or prematurely erased. No more 300 line init scripts: The average runit run script has a line count in the single digits. Runit automatically respawns everything it starts. If for some reason you want a specific daemon not to respawn, leave that daemon in sysvinit. Runit's easier to understand. But please understand you can use sysvinit as PID1 and do some or all daemon spawning and respawning from runit. > >Have you tried running devuan on 64 bit SOCs yet? I've only run Devuan on qemu VMs. > >Am thinking of using some such for servers - - - dunno where to >get info - - - - looking at some interesting logging for a fairly >large amount of inputs and then afterward looking at the data for >determining a number of different things. The software - - - looks >like I'm going to have to roll my own. Just isn't much that I think is >good stuff at prices I'm willing to pay (ag related stuff). Runit can log to the individual daemon's logs, or to syslog type stuff if you run a logging program. > >Thanks for the tip! You're very welcome. Steve Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] New build + extras
o1bigtenor via Dng said on Mon, 30 May 2022 17:07:44 -0500 >On Mon, May 30, 2022 at 5:03 PM o1bigtenor >Not trying to start any kind of 'holy war' but was thinking of using >SysV init unless there are some great arguments where another option >is better - - - that is something that needs its own advice. Before I continue, I was quite happy with sysvinit 1998 to whenever upstart took over. Sysvinit does the job. In my opinion the difference between sysvinit and OpenRC is not enough to walk away from the familiar sysvinit. Now, because runit exists, I would never again start up my daemons using sysvinit. Instead, I would do one of the two following: 1: Use sysvinit for PID1, and: A: Start runit in /etc/inittab as a respawn B: For each daemon: i: Disable the daemon in sysvinit ii: Enable it in runit 2: Use runit as a complete init system If I were using Devuan (my Daily Driver Desktop (DDD) is Void), I would choose alternative 1 because it's simple and sticks with what I know. If I were using a native runit distro like Void I'd use alternative 2. I think #1 is a great way to slowly wade from the shallow end of to the deep end. SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Microsoft azure and devuan
* * \ o / \|/ | Y O U R O C K ! / \ _ / \/ / - Tell me what Free Software looks like: THIS is what Free Software looks like! Nice move, Peter! Peter Duffy said on Fri, 20 May 2022 18:31:36 +0100 >Quite a long time ago, I mentioned that I'd been tasked with upgrading >some linux VMs running under Microsoft Azure, and had decided to try to >use devuan. I then found that devuan wouldn't work under azure. The >problem was walinuxagent - aka waagent and azurelinuxagent, the glue >layer which sits between the azure infrastructure and linux, and >enables azure to do things like start and stop VMs and collect stats >and metrics. It didn't work properly under devuan. > >It turned out that there were actually two problems: > >- walinuxagent needs to know about each supported distro, and hadn't >been told about devuan: the default for unsupported distros was to >assume that systemd was present. > >- to determine the distro under which it was running, walinuxagent used >the python function platform.linux_distribution. This was incapable of >distinguishing between devuan and debian (when run under devuan, it >claimed that the distro was debian). > >Figuring out the context of the problem was difficult. It wasn't a >devuan problem, as the walinuxagent package is taken directly from the >debian repo; it wasn't a debian problem as the problem was in >walinuxagent; the first part of the problem could be fixed by telling >walinuxagent about devuan; python already had a new module/function >distro.linux_distribution which was able to distinguish between debian >and devuan, and walinuxagent fell back to this if >platform.linux_distribution was not found - but if the latter was >available, it would use it. > >Eventually, I decided to work on this myself. The walinuxagent repo is >on github, so I forked it onto my own github account. Adding devuan as >a known distro was fairly trivial (there's a structure built into >walinuxagent to enable extra distros to be added and to tell it whether >or not to use systemd). I then wrote a chunk of extra python code which >would be called whenever platform.linux_distribution() was called and >returned a result of "debian", and would re-check to see if it was >really devuan. I got this all to work, and created an azure VM running >devuan (beowulf). It seemed to work fine (the VM has now been in >service for over 1.5 years). I then raised a pull request on the >upstream azure walinuxagent repo to merge my changes. > >My pull request was acknowledged and put up for a code review - but for >some reason, nothing further happened for a long time (maybe it was to >do with problems caused by the pandemic). I have to admit that I had >concerns about my extra code. I'd done extensive testing - but it was a >big chunk of code which referenced a number of things in the linux >environment, any of which could change independently of walinuxagent. I >was conscious that if it was merged into the main repo, it would >eventually get run on every debian-based VM in azure, and if there was >something that I'd overlooked and which caused problems, it would cause >problems on all of them. To put it mildly, that would probably be Bad >News. > >Then chimaera appeared - and from my point of view, there was one >extremely useful enhancement: debian bullseye, and therefore devuan >chimaera, had moved to python 3.9. In python 3.8, the buggy and >unreliable platform.linux_distribution had been removed. This forced >walinuxagent to use distro.linux_distribution - and as this could >distinguish between debian and devuan, my extra python code wasn't >needed any more. So I cancelled the old pull request and started again, >and this time just made the changes to walinuxagent to allow it to >recognise devuan and use non-systemd utilities and functions on the VM. >I then raised another pull request on the azure walinuxagent upstream >repo, and after correcting a few issues, I heard on Wednesday that my >changes have been merged. So when the next release of walinuxagent >appears in the distros, it should support devuan. This should make it >generally possible to run devuan VMs under azure. > >If anyone wants to have a look at my code, it can be cloned from my >github account: https://github.com/peter9370/WALinuxAgent The version >which works on chimaera and hopefully later releases is in the branch >"devuan_support_new". There's also a branch >"devuan_support_pre_chimaera" which contains the version including my >extra code, which worked on beowulf. I'm not sure when the next release >is due: I'll keep an eye on the upstream repo. > >Apologies for the length of that - it's been a long journey, and >difficult to summarise concisely. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] resolv.conf
Rowland Penny via Dng said on Mon, 09 May 2022 11:52:14 +0100 >> > I chattr +i /etc/resolv.conf also. Besides that, I run my own DNS >> > (unbound) and strongarm my /etc/resolv.conf to that. >> >> Me four. > >That is just a bandaid on something broken. If you have to stop >something being changed, then there must be something trying to change >it. You need to find what that 'something' is and stop that changing >resolv.conf Technically you're right. But 10 years of this bandaid tells me there are no observable side effects. And, in the words of the late Phil Barnett, "While it would be nice to spend days figuring it out, I spent minutes and got past it." SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] resolv.conf
Daniel Abrecht via Dng said on Sun, 08 May 2022 17:14:03 +0200 >If you don't have a public domain, then the correct domain to use in >an internal networks is home.arpa, see: >https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-homenet-dot-07.html > >home.arpa. is intentionaly set up as an unsigned delegation, so it >won't break when someone uses dnssec. Other domains will fail dnssec. > >Unfortunately, noone seams to ever check dnssec for some reason, and >noone seams to care about home.arpa either. But I'm still optimistic >that this may someday change. That RFC would have much better acceptance if either it was more accessible to the network non-expert, or pointed to documentation for the non-expert. I wasn't able to glean from the document what I was supposed to do with home.arpa, plus the stuff about blackhole servers must be pointed to went right over my head. In my case it doesn't matter. Since the waning days of the 20th century, my home LAN has had the TLD "cxm", because I'm a technical writer, and translating cxm to com would be much easier than doing the same for home.arpa, given that both home and arpa are likely to appear elsewhere in my documents. SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] resolv.conf
Antony Stone said on Sun, 8 May 2022 16:28:38 +0200 >On Sunday 08 May 2022 at 16:24:03, william m. moss wrote: > >> Years ago I became fed up with too many applications and >> installations corrupting my resolv.conf. I type in a resolv.conf >> using an editor. > >Me too. Me three. > >> To prevent the file from being corrupted by other applications: > >chattr +i /etc/resolv.conf I chattr +i /etc/resolv.conf also. Besides that, I run my own DNS (unbound) and strongarm my /etc/resolv.conf to that. SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] David Billsbrough presents "FreeBSD In The Cloud"
Hi all, Wednesday Evening, May 4, 2022, at 7pm Eastern Daylight time David Billsbrough gives his "FreeBSD In The Cloud" presentation at the monthly GoLUG online meeting. When: 7pm New York time on Wednesday, May 4, 2022. Starts right at 7pm Eastern Daylight Time. Where: https://meet.jit.si/golug Subject: FreeBSD In The Cloud. Who is David Billsbrough? David Billsbrough is an expert in BSD, IoT, and Infrastructure As A Service. He's a contract developer and admin. What is GoLUG? Greater Orlando Linux User Group, Orlando Florida. Who will be there? Folks from Orlando Florida, all over the United States, and likely internationally. Where can you get more information? http://golug.info Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Piping is an easy way to do multithreading: was mouse driver question
Antony Stone said on Sat, 23 Apr 2022 23:55:36 +0200 >On Saturday 23 April 2022 at 22:57:12, Florian Zieboll via Dng wrote: >I just tried several successive searches for a few unique filenames in >a directory tree (all files in the same directory, just in case the >position made a difference). > >The first search took 6 minutes and clearly set up some cache of >results, because subsequent searches were consistently: > > find . | grep filename : 20 seconds > > find . -name filename : 25 seconds > >That was consistent no matter whether the two filenames were the same, >or different but still in the same directory, and no matter which >command was run first. > >Nice observation. This makes sense. More than 15 years ago, I attended a talk by Jon "maddog" Hall, in which he made the point that Unix piping was one of the easiest ways to get multithreading, and that, if possible, each process in the pipeline will get its own processor core (or nowadays, thread). Unix piping is a great way to actually use all those CPU threads. SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Online GoLUG presentation tonight, 4/6/2022, 7pm
Hi all, This evening (4/6/2022) at 7pm New York time, Steve Litt gives two short Jitsi online presentations: 1) 15 minute walkthrough of his keyboard-centric user interface, which has been requested on several mailing lists. This UI can be achieved on almost any distro with almost any Window Manager or Desktop Environment. 2) 45 minute overview of a few Linux “Quickhacks”, which are easy little things that make life easier, but are easy to forget. The remaining 1 hour is devoted to any presentations others might want to give, as well as general discussion of Linux and FOSS. When: 7pm New York time on Wednesday, April 6, 2022. Starts right at 7pm. Where: https://meet.jit.si/golug Subject: Keyboard centric Linux UI, Quickhacks, and any other Linux/FOSS topics that might pop up. Who is Steve Litt? Steve Litt is founder and Content Lead of Troubleshooters.Com, provider of books and courses teaching the process and mindset of technical troubleshooting. He's the main author of “Samba Unleashed” and ten other books, spent 15 years as a professional developer, and 8 years as an electronics technician. What is GoLUG? Greater Orlando Linux User Group, originally from Orlando Florida, now one of the new breed of online international LUGs. Who will be there? Folks from Orlando Florida and all over the United States, and likely internationally. SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Anyone want to give a Devuan presentation 4/6/2022
Hi all, Anyone want to give a Devuan presentation at the next GoLUG online meeting, 4/6/2022? SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Wifi problem - dhclient times out with no reply
aitor said on Sun, 20 Mar 2022 20:36:41 +0100 >Hi, > >On 20/3/22 20:33, aitor wrote: >> On 20/3/22 19:50, Steve Litt wrote: >>> This is probably unresponsive to your question, but what the heck? I >>> just switched from wpa_supplicant to iwd and its suite, and am >>> incredibly pleased. >> >> Looking at the code of iwgtk, I can see a strong dependence on DBus. >> >What about ubus? > >https://openwrt.org/docs/techref/ubus ><https://openwrt.org/docs/techref/ubus> Would ubus be a plug-compatible replacement for dbus? SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Wifi problem - dhclient times out with no reply
aitor said on Sun, 20 Mar 2022 20:33:03 +0100 >Hi, > >On 20/3/22 19:50, Steve Litt wrote: >> This is probably unresponsive to your question, but what the heck? I >> just switched from wpa_supplicant to iwd and its suite, and am >> incredibly pleased. > >Looking at the code of iwgtk, I can see a strong dependence on DBus. You're right, and that's not a good thing. But I have to have dbus anyway, so I switched. If anyone forks iwd to use a socket or named pipe instead of dbus, I'd be interested. SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Wifi problem - dhclient times out with no reply
Joel Roth via Dng said on Sat, 19 Mar 2022 12:52:31 -1000 >I've resolved this problem with a workaround: I found a >TPLINK r8188eu based usb wifi adapter that I managed to get >working with little fuss. So I'm back to my regular wifi >setup script using netaid (below). I also blacklisted >the wl and b43 drivers which I won't be needing. This is probably unresponsive to your question, but what the heck? I just switched from wpa_supplicant to iwd and its suite, and am incredibly pleased. I made the switch as follows: 1. Installed iwd and iwgtk 2. Killed the wpa_supplicant daemon 3. Removed wpa_supplicant as a daemon to run 4. Added iwd as a daemon to run 5. rebooted (important, didn't work til I did that) By the way, using runit I run both dhcpcd and iwd as respawning daemons. I took no precautions to make sure one started before the other, and it's worked every time, although I might just be lucky in that regard. The way I use iwd is to make all changes using iwgtk, *as a normal user*. Using iwgtk I can scan networks, connect to networks, connect to new networks if I know the password, and even forget networks. I like it much better than NetworkManager or WICD. It would be interesting to see if iwd would have the same problem with your original wifi adapter. SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Wifi problem - dhclient times out with no reply
aitor said on Sat, 12 Mar 2022 20:13:12 +0100 >Hi Joel, > >On 12/3/22 19:52, Joel Roth via Dng wrote: >> Thank for these suggestions. I've been killing dhclient and >> bringing down the interface, bringing it up and restarting >> dhclient. which I think does mostly the same thing. I also >> removed /var/lib/dhcp/dhclient.wlan* >> >> One way forward would be to restore my system to before >> the recent upgrade. For the moment, I'm using a wired >> connection. > >Did you kill also wpa_supplicant? Try again in this order: > ># killall dhclient wpa_supplicant ># ip addr flush dev wlan0 ># ip link set wlan0 down ># ip link set wlan0 up ># /sbin/wpa_supplicant -B -iwlan0 -c wpa.conf > >Finally: > ># dhclient wlan0 wpa_supplicant is touchy as hell. A finer and more robust control of it could be gotten by running it from runit. Assuming that runit can be installed without removing sysvinit, you could respawn runit from /etc/inittab, you could prevent sysvinit from running wpa_supplicant, and you can run wpa_supplicant as a respawning daemon from runit. This could actually be the beginning of an easy and graceful transition to runit. SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [SUSPICIOUS MESSAGE] Latex install question
Fred said on Fri, 11 Mar 2022 17:21:52 -0700 >Hi Nelson, > >On 3/11/22 08:06, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote: >> Fred asks on Fri, 11 Mar 2022 08:02:23 -0700 >> >>>> ... >>>> I am trying to compile a program which expects that Latex is >>>> installed. There are a number of Latex related packages in the >>>> repository but it is not apparent which is a base package. What >>>> package(s) should I install for more or less general usage? >>>> ... >> >> Try >> # apt-get install texlive-base texlive-latex-base >> > >This fixed the problem. Thanks for the help! > >> There are 60+ packages that match 'texlive-*'; add others as needed. >> >> If you have sufficient disk space, you could instead run >> >> # apt-get install texlive-full >> >> That gets them all. Good! You can disregard the email I wrote before reading this. SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Latex install question
STOP!!! Don't do anything until reading this message. Remainder bottom posted. Fred said on Fri, 11 Mar 2022 08:02:23 -0700 >Hello, > >I am trying to compile a program which expects that Latex is >installed. There are a number of Latex related packages in the >repository but it is not apparent which is a base package. What >package(s) should I install for more or less general usage? > >Best regards, >Fred Hi Fred, I've been using LyX, and hence LaTeX, for 20 years. There are two different and contradictory ways to install LaTeX. One is with your distro's package manager, the other is direct from CTAN (Comprehensive TEX Archive Network). Either way you install **TeXLive**, not MacTeX or Micky Mouse TeX (for windows I presume) or any of the other TeXes. I installed from CTAN, much to the dismay of my distro's movers and shakers, so that I can manage my TeX and LaTeX with the very nice tlmgr program. The advantage of my way is that you can get absolutely any facility supported by CTAN, instead of just the stuff my distro deems necessary. The disadvantage of my way is that every year fonts start to break, and you need to install all of the next year's packages and run texhash. If you choose my way, email me (reminding me of this email) when you start having fonts magically go bad. Because I write books that I sell, I absolutely need every last provision of LaTeX, hence my CTAN decision. If you're just doing something one-off and simple, your distro's LaTeX package might suit you more. If you do it my way, here's the starting point for download and understanding: https://www.tug.org/texlive/quickinstall.html HTH, SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Installation problems on Dell T7810 + PERC H310
fraser kendall said on Tue, 8 Mar 2022 15:33:37 +
>Hello,
>
>I am trying to install Devuan {Beowulf server (CD), Chimaera minimal
>(USB)} on the above machine. It has a 100M EFI partition 1, W10
>(partition 2, 116G, shrunk from 370G), [vacated free space for linux
>after shrinking, ~250G], and a Windows recovery partition 5 (~520M).
>The machine boots Windows 10 reliably with UEFI. I would like to keep
>the W10 installation if possible.
>
>However, despite two days of effort, I cannot get the machine to boot
>linux from the hard drive. The first problem was not detecting disks
>during installation, although after switching to legacy boot, the
>installer found the disks; partitioning and installation then completed
>as expected. The machine, however, failed to boot (no bootable image)
>after this 'successful' installation. I grub-installed to the
>'removable media path' as advised,, but I did use a 'targeted' not a
>'generic' initrd; this last has not been a problem before.
>
>I have disabled the RAID according to these instructions.
>
> https://www.dell.com/community/PowerEdge-HDD-SCSI-RAID/Linux-installation-doesn-t-find-physical-disks-on-R320/td-p/7659439
>
>The BIOS reports that there are no hard drives present, despite being
>able to boot Windows. I have tried to add boot devices to the UEFI
>menu, I can add the DVD drive, and boot from the Beowulf CD, which
>then fails at the detect disks stage; I can add the USB, but it doesn't
>launch the installer.
Hi Frazier,
A couple nights ago I went through similar nonsense on a newly
purchased refurbished Dell Insperon 3721 laptop. I used a different
distro (Void) and I didn't have hardware Raid. Also, my setup wouldn't
recognize my Void install DVD in UEFI, and wouldn't boot it in Legacy,
which is a little different. But I think we're still in the same
ballpark.
On my machine, SETUP is F2 several times before and during the Dell
logo. Boot choice at boot time is F12 several times before and during
the Dell logo. Obviously, your computer might have different buttons
for this stuff.
So I created a Void installer thumb drive, using
cp void.img /dev/sdWhatever, taking care that I got the thumb drive and
not my hard drive (which would be a big oops). I stuck it in the USB
slot, rebooted, F2 and set the machine to boot from UEFI, not Legacy,
but to leave Legacy enabled. I then exit and saved and of course it
booted windows. So then I powered off, powered on, and pressed F12
several times. When the F12 screen came up, under UEFI choices I had
Windows boot selector or whatever it's called, but now I also had USB
, which I chose and continued. It booted my thumb drive.
NOW, I'm booted into UEFI, so the installer thumb KNOWS it's in UEFI
and installs a UEFI installation. I just did a typical install, setting
the bootloader to /dev/sda and making the EFI partition /boot/efi. I
rebooted, pressed F12 again, and bang, up came Linux.
My story is just an anecdote, and your mileage may vary. But I have a
feeling that booting the thumb by way of UEFI was the key distinction.
> I am also given a list of 3 or 4 entries (which
>look like they might be partitions, although they are all identical),
>although adding them causes either an 'Input not supported' error or
>a 'no bootable device found'. I have changed the SATA controller from
>RAID to AHCI. Is there anything that I've missed?
If you changed from RAID to AHCI, didn't that trash your Windows? The
actual drive is striped, right?
>
>This is a newly-purchased, refurbished machine, and so I don't really
>want to open the case, just in case something is broken (although I
>can't think what) and under warrenty (unlikely). But as a last resort,
>what would happen if I removed the RAID card and connected the two
>drives as SATA? Would the BIOS then manage this automagically? Is there
>a master (independent) BIOS image stored on the motherboard, with a
>lesser one on the controller, and configured independently via the F12
>menu.
I'd ask the guys you bought it from before busting open the box.
SteveT
Steve Litt
March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm
___
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[DNG] Michael Potter presents "Seatbelts And Airbags For Bash"
Hi all, This evening at 7pm New York time Micheal Potter gives his "Seatbelts And Airbags For Bash" presentation at the monthly GoLUG online meeting. This is a deep-dive into Bash, so if you like Bash, this presentation is for you. When: 7pm New York time on Wednesday, March 2, 2022. Starts right at 7pm Where: https://meet.jit.si/golug Subject: Deep dive into Bash. Who is Michael Potter? Michael Potter is founder and President/CIO of Tapp Solutions, providers of productivity boosting apps for the insurance industry. He has massive Linux/UNIX experience. His Linkedin profile can be seen at https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelpotter/ What is GoLUG? Greater Orlando Linux User Group, Orlando Florida. Who will be there? Folks from Orlando Florida, all over the United States, and likely internationally. SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] No-Internet Devuan Installer?
Hi all, Let's say, just for fun, that I expected to be permanently disconnected from the Internet, but still wanted to use my computer, kind of how I used my computer 1985-1995. Is there a way I could install Chimera on DVDs so that I could install Chimera, on any computer with a DVD drive, and use it? Please remember the expectation of permanent disconnection from the Internet, so that security wouldn't be much of an issue. In other words, I'm asking if there's a way I could have a Chimera install DVD set that would act like the Linux install sets back in the 1990's, when there was not an assumption you'd have a connection to the Internet. With Devuan, what would be my best way of doing this, if any? Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [OT] files disappearing reproducibly
Florian Zieboll via Dng said on Sat, 19 Feb 2022 18:51:54 +0100
>Back to the keyboard, I just discovered, that every (GUI) program I
>run, is spawned from PID 1.
This is not precisely true. Even though ps ax lists the PPID of the
programs you run is 1, PID1 didn't spawn them. Here's the explanation...
When there's a desire to background a program in such a way that you
can close the parent program without closing the "spawned" program,
without using the problematic nohup, the iconic way to do it is called
"doublefork", which *assigns* the PPID to PID1.
As a doublefork example, the following is the C code my qownbackup
system uses to background the `qownbackup backup` command:
==
#include
#include
int main(int argc, char *argv[]){
pid_t pid = fork();
if(pid < 0){
printf("First fork failed.\n");
perror("First fork failed!");
} else if(pid == 0){
pid = fork();
if(pid < 0){
printf("Second fork failed.\n");
perror("Second fork failed!");
} else if(pid == 0){
execl("./qownbackup.sh", "./qownbackup.sh", "backup", NULL);
}
}
}
==
Aitor can correct any misunderstandings I have, but here goes my
explanation...
First, understand that the fork() function produces a second process,
called "the child", almost completely identical to the first. The
child's program counter is the same as the parent's, so both process
proceed from the point immediately after the fork() function.
The fork() function returns one of three ranges of integers:
* Less than 1 on error.
* Zero if the current process is the child.
* Greater than zero, and in fact the child's PID, if the process is
the parent.
The child of a child is assigned a PPID of 1.
So the first thing is to do one fork, test the return code for error,
and abort if so. If the return code is positive, indicating that this
is the parent, do nothing, so that the parent finishes normally.
But if the return code is zero, this is the first child, so do another
fork. Once again, run the fork() function, and if the return indicate's
that you're a child (of the child the child the original created), do
an exec function to replace yourself with the command you want to
background, in this case "qownbackup backup".
Because it's the child of a child, its PPID is 1. Aitor, I don't think
I've given the complete story, I think there's a dependency on which
process finishes first, and as such I might have a race condition in my
code.
Also, I think I should have done a setsid() after the second fork, and
I should have done something to close stdin, and redirect stdout and
stderr, to a log file or to /dev/null.
The following is the (Python3) doublefork used in my UMENU2 software:
==
#!/usr/bin/python
import sys
import os
if os.fork():
sys.exit(0)
if os.fork():
sys.exit(0)
os.setsid() ### New to 1.9.3, guarantees complete fork
sys.argv.pop(0)
executable = sys.argv[0]
os.execvp(executable, sys.argv)
==
In the preceding, errors aren't handled, so it just does two straight
forks and proceeds only if both return zero. Then it does a setsid(),
which I think my C implementation should have done too, and then exec's
the desired command, just like my C implementation does.
Doubleforking works in pretty much any computer language with the
fork(). You can even do it in bash or dash, but it's not so
straightforward.
SteveT
Steve Litt
March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm
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[DNG] Inkscape Presentation at OCLUG 2/19/2022
Hi all, Another "Beginning and Intermediate Inkscape" presentation. For anyone who missed my Inkscape presentation but wants to see it, I'm giving it again at the monthly Orange County (California USA) LUG (OCLUG) meeting 2/19/2022 at 10am **Pacific Time** (California USA time). You can see details and URL at http://troubleshooters.com/lugs/oclug/ Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Another reason for why I use Devuan
Keith Christian via Dng said on Thu, 17 Feb 2022 17:55:49 -0700 >This describes the machine ID: > >https%3A%2F%2Fwww.freedesktop.org >%2Fsoftware%2Fsystemd%2Fman%2Fmachine-id.html Yeah, that URL is typical of FreeDesktop.Org. They want to completely Window-ize Linux. SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] qownbackup
Hi all, For any of you using the extremely handy QOwnNote note taking and Markdown authoring software, I've created the qownbackup system to make automatic, versioned backups of all your QOwnNotes Markdown files. This solves the problem of QOwnNotes autosaving mistakes and accidental deletions over the good version. http://troubleshooters.com/projects/qownbackup/ SteveT Steve Litt March 2022 featured book: Making Mental Models: Advanced Edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mmm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] URLS that were recommended in the 2/2/2022 GoLUG meeting
Hi all, Several people wanted me to post the URLs recommended during the 2/2/2022 GoLUG meeting. This list of URLs has been added to the 2/2/2022 meeting material at http://golug.info . Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Scheme/Lisp: was What is your take on finit?
Nikolaus Klepp via Dng said on Tue, 1 Feb 2022 17:55:30 +0100 >Anno domini 2022 Tue, 1 Feb 11:44:37 -0500 > Steve Litt scripsit: >> In the hands of anything but a very careful and >> security-knowledgeable programmer, writing Python3 is more secure >> than writing C. You could think of Python3 as C with seatbelts and >> airbags, and a heck of an inefficient transmission. > >When it comes to this, I still prefer Scheme/Lisp seatbelts and >airbags. But that's most likely because I have a grey beard and the >first "high level" languages where indentation kicked my butt were >fortran and cobol. Seeing that resurrected in python is like return of >the living dead ... > >Nik Hi Nik, I've been trying for over a decade to learn Scheme, or any other functional programming language. I've failed every time. Since 1982 I've been a structured programmer using functional decomposition as a design method. I can do OOP, although I'm not that impressed by it. How can I acquire the proper mindset to do Scheme or other functional languages the right way, so I can finally start functional programming that doesn't have a C accent? Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What is your take on finit?
tito via Dng said on Tue, 1 Feb 2022 13:49:30 +0100 >On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 09:50:31 +0100 >Didier Kryn wrote: > >> Le 31/01/2022 à 19:16, Steve Litt a écrit : >> >> Writing a self-daemonizing daemon in C was a routine when I >> >> was still active, though I understand it could be more difficult >> >> in shell. >> > But more difficult in Python. I try to stay away from C if Python >> > does the job. I think Python3 plus its standard libraries are more >> > secure than C code written by the error prone Steve Litt. >> >> Let me generalize: "I think Python3 plus its standard libraries >> are more secure than C code written by an error prone human being." >> (~: > >You made my day ;-) ... and Python is written in which programming >language? This is my point exactly. The C in Python was written by much more careful and security aware programmers than I, checked by thousands. This is why you almost never hear of security flaws or bugs in Python3. Although made from C, Python3 has no pointers and has infinitly expandable arrays and dictionaries, so no pointer exploits, no errant pointers, no ininitialized pointers, and no buffer overflows. They pull off RAM from the stack and the heap in the right way, and have garbage collection, so memory leaks and the like are unlikely to occur by accident. I can screw up a Python program in many ways, but assuming I cleanse my inputs, few of those ways are a security risk. In the hands of anything but a very careful and security-knowledgeable programmer, writing Python3 is more secure than writing C. You could think of Python3 as C with seatbelts and airbags, and a heck of an inefficient transmission. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] 3 GoLUG meeting presentations
Hi all, The GoLUG meeting at 7pm on Wednesday 2/2/2022 7PM Eastern (New York) time, features three short presentations, as detailed at http://golug.info. Due to time constraints, we're not taking any more presenters for the 2/2/2022 meeting. Presentations plus each presentation's 10 minute question and answer are scheduled to take 1.5 hours. Presenters, please arrive at least 15 minutes early to test your sound and video setup and make sure you're able to share your screen. I'll probably arrive about half an hour early. This is an online meeting via Jitsi. The URL is https://meet.jit.si/golug From Linux, I've had best success using Jitsi from the Chromium browser. Others have been able to use Firefox, but I haven't. There are also static image apps you can download. Jitsi works fine with Mac, Windows, iPhone and Android. If you're not using headphones, or if you're working from a noisy environment, please keep your mike muted except when speaking. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] IPv6 for dummies by a dummy (was: Configuring ethernet port for IPv6)
tempforever said on Mon, 31 Jan 2022 21:11:55 -0500 >o1bigtenor via Dng wrote: >> Wondering about physical setup. >> I had thought of running my network (part of it at least) like this: >> >> WAN == router == firewall == managed switch == complicated network >> >> It has been suggested to me that I should combine the router and >> the firewall functions into the same machine. Which option (combining >> functions or separating functions) gives a more robust network? >> >> Where would a pihole function in this scenario? >> >> >My home network: > >WAN (modem) == router/firewall == switch == uncomplicated network > >The pihole resides as part of the uncomplicated network, plugged into >the switch. > >My consumer router/firewall has unused ports; it could have gone in one >of them. > >In any case, I'd recommend it being inside the firewall with the rest >of the network. Very soon I'll build myself an OpenBSD/pf firewall/router. At that time I might set up something like the following: 11.22.33.440.0/24100.0/24 INTERNET==SPECTRUM_MODEM_FW/ROUTERBSD/PF==WIRED_LAN \\ \=WIFI_ACCESS_POINT=Laptops 0.0/240.0/24 The preceding leaves the Spectrum modem/firewall/router/wifi open to the 20005 attack, but that attack can't go anywhere easily. I'll try very hard to disable the Spectrum's wifi. The OpenBSD/pf will protect the wired network from packets initiated from the Internet or from the wifi laptops. I might leave ports 80 and 22 open to the laptops so they can get house websites or ssh in. Also, I'll need to have them receive DHCP from somewhere, and try to configure the DHCP to specific MAC addresses. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What is your take on finit?
Didier Kryn said on Mon, 31 Jan 2022 10:27:53 +0100 >Le 29/01/2022 à 21:00, k...@aspodata.se a écrit : >> I don't see the point in letting init do serious process monitoring. >> Just use a minimal init and startup a separate process monitoring >> daemon (or what theese things are called). >> >> ... >> I don't see the point, learn to write good deamons. It seems the need >> to use theese process monitors has sprung up from the availability >> of shitty deamons. >> In my view, when a deamon dies by any other cause than from your >> will then it shall die so hard that it causes a major headacke and >> the shitty programmer should be publicly flogged as a reminder and >> example to other programmers -- well not really, but you get my >> point. >> >> Most deamons I have run, they just run, they don't need a process >> monitor except me. >> > I fully share this pov. I'm happy with sysvinit or Busybox init. >If I was still active, and needing to write daemons, I would certainly >welcome improvements on the following points: > > - simplify start/stop scripts and find a better way to express >their dependencies Runit does that. > - help daemons ack when they're actually ready Runit goes one better, by allowing you to put tests in the run scripts of dependent processes to see when their dependencies are fully functional. The beauty is that YOU decide the meaning of "fully functional", not the daemon author, who might not understand your individual situation. > > Writing a self-daemonizing daemon in C was a routine when I was >still active, though I understand it could be more difficult in shell. But more difficult in Python. I try to stay away from C if Python does the job. I think Python3 plus its standard libraries are more secure than C code written by the error prone Steve Litt. As far as "routine", I would think it's a lot more difficult to have a program doublefork itself when finished than the 9 or so lines it takes to doublefork something else. I was unable to write a doublefork-something-else routine in /bin/sh. Maybe smarter shellscript people than I can do it, but I can't. >Also I like that the logs are sent to syslog. I'm pretty sure runit can send logs to syslog. > > But, as a user, I'm satisfied with sysvinit. Boot is so fast that >I've abandonned the use of suspend/resume. I'm pretty sure runit boots faster than sysvinit. Also, an excellent move is to use sysvinit for PID1, and use runit for most of the rest of your daemons. About writing good daemons... Sometimes, for my personal use, I want to write a quick and dirty daemon in Python, and if it dies have runit run it again. If I were to write a daemon where a crash would signify something terrible that needs to be investigated, it can be run as a one-shot by any init system. Whatever shellscript runs the daemon could end by getting $? and if it's non-zero, make a lot of noise. This could also be done if it's supervised. So I still say daemons are usually best run in the foreground and supervised by a supervisor. And therefore I'm not especially impressed by finit. Everything I said about runit in this email is also true of s6. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Would you like to speak at the next GoLUG meeting?
Hi all, The next GoLUG meeting, at 7pm on Wednesday, 2/2/2022, will be a combination show-and-tell and soapbox opportunity. You can show off a technology or free software program you find cool, or just talk. Each participation will be between 5 and 25 minutes, each with up to 10 minutes for questions. We already have one participation, so between 2 and 3 more participation are available. If you'd like to do a participation, please email me at sl...@troubleshooters.com. Our meetings are online Jitsi, at https://meet.jit.si/golug via the Chrome or Chromium browser. Jitsi works with every Linux distro I've seen. It's also accessible via Mac, iPhone, Windows, and Android if you're driving on that side of the street that night. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] PHP 8.1 depends on systemd?
Mathieu ROY via Dng said on Sat, 29 Jan 2022 12:47:14 +0100 >Hello, > >Trying to upgrade to PHP 8.1, I found out it now depends on systemd or >systemd-tmpfiles (no package available). > >https://packages.debian.org/bookworm/php8.1-fpm So inappropriate. As I said in 2014, systemd won't quit until the cat command requires systemd. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Configuring ethernet port for IPv6
Joel Roth via Dng said on Thu, 27 Jan 2022 11:37:52 -1000 >Hi veteran admins, > >It seems that my new router uses IPv6. Perhaps that means >the ISP does so as well. > >My problem is connecting via dhcp over ethernet. On IRC >I was advised to try > >ping ff02::1%eth1 > >which fails to get a response, indicating IPv6 is not enabled in my >client. > >I tried setting "iface eth1 inet6 dhcp" in /etc/network/interfaces, >then "ifup eth1". This fails with > >no link-local IPv6 address for eth1 > >References suggest that "ifconfig eth1 up" or "ip link set dev eth1 up" >will trigger the kernel to assign an IPv6 address. Since >this is not happening, I'm asking the wisdom of the list VUAs >how to enable IPv6 for this port. > >Thanks in advance, Hi Joel, Good to see you again! On my next router, (probably OpenBSD/pf), I'm going to block all IPV6. I enjoy that the badguys have to jump through one more hoop (NAT) to hit me where it hurts. I'm not an authority on firewalls and routers, but I'm going to try hard to pass only a very few IP addresses on my LAN, and put the Wifi on a third network card. In my opinion, IOT (the Internet Of Things) is for the most part an abomination. I don't want my thermostat on the same subnet as my LAN. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What is your take on finit?
Syeed Ali said on Thu, 27 Jan 2022 03:52:34 -0800 >On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 08:59:24 +0100 >Martin Steigerwald wrote: > >> I saw this coming into Debian Sid, so should be available in Devuan >> Ceres as well: >> >> https://troglobit.com/projects/finit/ > >I'm going to hazard the guess that this will be lined up in the same >way that Microsoft propped up Apple so they can point to a "competitor" >and say "see, we're not a monopoly!". What Syeed sounds reasonable. I read the docs at https://troglobit.com/projects/finit/ , and have some opinions technically... * It's better than systemd and sysvinit, which is faint praise. * It's better at mixing long-runs and do-once than runit (but not s6) * Each line of the config is kinda complicated, so you'd better have a cheat sheet when configuring. * It requires each daemon to background itself. Eww, gross! About self-backgrounding daemons... Requiring daemons to self-background is very bad because it makes daemon supervision very hard because they depend on a PID file which could get erased or overwritten or whatever. You can have much better control over a daemon the way runit, s6 and daemontools do it: run the daemon in the foreground. Ideally your init should have a choice between self-backgrounding daemons and the superior foreground daemons. Systemd has that choice, and runit, s6 and daemontools all have a kludge that usually can run backgrounded daemons. Please keep in mind that intelligently created daemons that background themselves have a command line option to run in the foreground --- only a tiny minority (cough, cough, httpd) have no option to prevent self-backgrounding. Ability to run foreground daemons is a huge asset when you make your own daemons. Any C, Python, Perl, Ruby, Lua, Java, PHP, C++, Pascal, bash, /bin/sh, or pretty much any other program that loops forever doing its job can be made into a daemon by an init that accepts foreground daemons. This is revolutionary, because it means the daemon author no longer needs to write the (non-trivial) self-backgrounding code. I have several home-made no-backgrounding daemons running, and those wouldn't be possible with finit. So Syeed, the cynical part of me thinks not only that you're right, but they picked a real dog of an init system to compete with systemd, because if they picked runit or s6, systemd would be out-competed. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs
Bruce Perens via Dng said on Sun, 23 Jan 2022 12:02:24 -0800 >Busybox is GNU. The fact that FSF doesn't own it is immaterial. I >developed it for Debian GNU/Linux. Bruce, Thanks for developing Busybox! SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Screen readability (was Re: The Daedalus desktop needs some love)
Olaf Meeuwissen via Dng said on Sun, 23 Jan 2022 11:32:56 +0900 >About not being able to change what you can't read, a screenreader >might be able to solve that but I don't think it's something seeing >folks would be comfortable using, let alone set up when cannot even >see what you're doing ;-) :-) If a software vendor prefers to make me install and learn a screen reader rather than start with readable text, probably going to move to alternative software. Like I did with Gobo. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Another one bytes the dust
Tomasz Torcz said on Sat, 22 Jan 2022 21:24:01 +0100 >On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 03:01:06PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Apparently the Debian project is still using its unalterable yet >> gameable bureaucracy to screw over those whose opinions differ from >> Debian's political core... >> >> Please view the following email thread by Norbert Preining and >> others: >> >> https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2018/12/msg00032.html > > This thread is from 3 years ago, it's not current. >But if you like this kinf of witch-hunting, maybe you will be >interested in following uncesored >https://debian.community/ and https://fsfellowship.eu/ The preceding two links constitute a Strawman Fallacy, because they're fantastical tabloid craziness. My post was from the person involved, and is undisputed, regardless of its age. You framed my central point as something completely different from what I said. You could have simply said "leave well enough alone". SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The Daedalus desktop needs some love
o1bigtenor via Dng said on Thu, 20 Jan 2022 07:03:27 -0600 >AIUI there are not only different forms of color blindedness but also >different levels. Putting that all together means a very large amount >of complexity. > >Likely an easy path to avoid most difficulties - - - use only strong >primary colors - - - does that solve the possible issues - - - nope >but those that are color blind have learned to cope with those specific >issues (I'm thinking of red like in stop lights). As a guy with vision correctable to 20/50 at best, I have a dog in this fight. The initial theme should: 1) Be readable by anyone who can see at all. 2) Make it trivial for anybody to create, edit or change themes. The preceding two rules would make certain that nobody is presented with a buried shovel in which if they could read the print, they could change the config, and if only they could change the config, they could read the print. 90+% of users will immediately change their theme to something prettier and less stark. The visually handicapped could copy the initial theme to their own theme and modify as necessary. I'm not color blind, but I have a pretty good idea how to make things legible to color blind people: Always have either very dark print on very light background, or very light print on very dark background. This way, the color blind person can discern by light and dark, not color on color. Also, NFT (No Friggin Transparency). For people like me with poor visual acuity, the following are important in the initial theme: * Bigtime contrast. No dark violet on dark blue, or darker violet on dark violet. * Big print. Minimum 12 point, 14 point is better. * No Friggin Transparency! Transparency is the kiss of death for those with low visual acuity. * Startlingly different window decoration for the window with focus, as opposed to the windows without focus. I think very light gray background titlebar for unfocused and very dark blue titlebar for focused would be perfect. Obviously, make the titlebar text contrast starkly with the titlebar background. Also, adding a couple pixels to the window border helps those with low vision know where the window ends and something else begins. You haven't lived until you look at a screen and can't tell which window has focus. Are my suggestions ugly? Most people think so. But please remember the vast majority will immediately switch to a theme more visually pleasing. True story... There was once a Linux project called Gobo Linux, with a packaging scheme I would have preferred to any existing. As with MS-DOS, each application had its own directory tree. That's how I like it --- screw LFS. I was starting to test it, but there was only one thing wrong: The terminal text was about 7point, dark blue on dark purple. I asked them to change it and they said "no problem, you change it at the Grub prompt." So I tried, but they'd set the console font to about 6 point gray on black. I asked them to change the console font and they said I should change it, even though it was clear I couldn't change what I can't read. I was going to publish good stuff about the Gobo project on Troubleshooters.Com. Several projects have been very glad to get publicized on Troubleshooters.Com, but I guess these guys couldn't be bothered either to make it usable for me or make it usable for those with poor eyesight. I never publicized them. As far as I can tell, their mailing list stopped functioning in November 2019, and today their IRC channel has eight people. But they stuck by their guns and kept their "viewable by GenZ only" interface. Oh well. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Another one bytes the dust
Hi all, Apparently the Debian project is still using its unalterable yet gameable bureaucracy to screw over those whose opinions differ from Debian's political core... Please view the following email thread by Norbert Preining and others: https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2018/12/msg00032.html Best I can tell, because of one recent complaint and a review of his "tone" in 2012 to 2014, based mostly on his coc and systemd posts, he was demoted from Developer to Maintainer by the "Debian Account Managers". This led him to either partially, substantially or completely withdraw from the Debian project. A quick web search tells me his view of systemd is not positive. Would it make any sense to invite Norbert Preining to become part of the Devuan project? SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [OT] problem with quemu dnsmasq vs unbound
al3xu5 via Dng said on Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:55:04 +0100 >Please, I would ask for your advices about the situation described >below. > >Excuse me if this could be OT in this list. > >On my chimaera system, I am using unbound as a local recursive caching >DNS (not authoritative) server. More, I have uninstalled dnsmasq, as I >do not need it and want to avoid it interfering with unbound. > >But QEMU/KVM requires dnsmasq to start the 'default' virt network. Here's a data point. My Void Linux physical machine Daily Driver Desktop (DDD) has both unbound and dnsmasq installed, and if there's any interference, I'm not aware of it. = [slitt@mydesk nq]$ time dig @192.168.0.102 masterblaster.com ; <<>> DiG 9.16.22 <<>> @192.168.0.102 masterblaster.com ; (1 server found) ;; global options: +cmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 25686 ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 1 ;; OPT PSEUDOSECTION: ; EDNS: version: 0, flags:; udp: 1232 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;masterblaster.com. IN A ;; ANSWER SECTION: masterblaster.com. 3600IN A 52.128.23.153 ;; Query time: 228 msec ;; SERVER: 192.168.0.102#53(192.168.0.102) ;; WHEN: Fri Jan 21 13:48:40 EST 2022 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 62 real0m0.293s user0m0.005s sys 0m0.008s [slitt@mydesk nq]$ time dig @192.168.0.102 masterblaster.com ; <<>> DiG 9.16.22 <<>> @192.168.0.102 masterblaster.com ; (1 server found) ;; global options: +cmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 4685 ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 1 ;; OPT PSEUDOSECTION: ; EDNS: version: 0, flags:; udp: 1232 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;masterblaster.com. IN A ;; ANSWER SECTION: masterblaster.com. 3590IN A 52.128.23.153 ;; Query time: 0 msec ;; SERVER: 192.168.0.102#53(192.168.0.102) ;; WHEN: Fri Jan 21 13:48:50 EST 2022 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 62 real0m0.019s user0m0.004s sys 0m0.005s [slitt@mydesk nq]$ = As you can see, it took 0.3 seconds to look up a domain via recursion. It took 0.02 seconds to look it up in the cache. These timings don't seem inconvenient to me. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs
> >On Sun, 2022-01-16 at 04:12 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> This was discussed on the devuan-offtopic IRC channel, so I watched >> the video: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECCr_KFl41E >> >> It's Brian Kernighan discussing the formation of Unix, starting from >> the back story of the creation of Bell Labs, including predecessors >> CTSS and Multics, and C predecessors BCPL which was modified to >> become B, and why Dennis Richie added types to B to make C. >> >> This video really hits its stride when Kernighan discusses piping and >> redirection, and the ease of creating wonderful things out of small >> parts that, and Kernighan used these words, "do one thing and do it >> well." >> >> I felt like I was watching a fellow traveller who respected >> simplicity, and creating powerful systems from simple tools. It was >> a much needed reaffirmation for a guy who, when he's not with his >> Devuan buddies, endures countless taunts for not using the >> pulseaudio-mandated Zoom, or a Mac, or even Windows. They call me a >> tinkerer, even though my user interface has changed not one bit in >> seven years (Openbox with dmenu and UMENU2). Kind of ironic >> considering the changes their beloved Gnome and KDE have put them >> through during that time. >> >> This video is such a breath of fresh air in a world worshipping >> Gates, Jobs and Poettering. I suggest you watch it. I think it will >> bring a smile to your face. >> >> SteveT >> Peter Duffy said on Thu, 20 Jan 2022 16:24:46 + >Thanks for the link to that - brilliant talk. I've always thought that >Brian Kernighan himself was the great communicator in the UNIX group - >I wonder whether "The C Programming Language" and "The Unix Programming >Environment" would have happened without his obvious ability to take >abstruse and difficult material and make it accessible. I doubt whether these things would have happeneed without Brian Kernighan. For a few years, "The C Programming Language" was the C manual and about the only way you could learn C. Years later others wrote books better suited to learning C, but I think "The C Programming Language" remained the manual. > >If I had one incredibly tiny nit to pick, it would be that he didn't >mention GNU (it appeared once in the slide showing Linus' original >email). I noticed that too. He talked about cooperative cultures, and didn't mention Stallman, who rebelled and wrote the manifesto after his cooperative culture broke down. > Without GNU, it's reasonable to suppose that linux wouldn't >have happened. I've said that many times. The fact that (practically speaking) others couldn't profit from selling a contributor's code, thus making the contributor a "sucker", was a powerful incentive in the early days of developers neither selling their code nor getting paid to write their code. The same copyleft that seems intrusive to many of today's developers was the perfect license for the 1990's. I still license some of my stuff GPL2. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ntp setup
Antony Stone said on Thu, 20 Jan 2022 12:02:08 +0100 >On Thursday 20 January 2022 at 11:58:32, Steve Litt wrote: > >> I use openntpd. Is that NTP, or only SNTP? > >It's both: https://man.openbsd.org/ntpd > > >Antony. Thanks Antony, After reading that page and man 5 ntpd.conf, I couldn't find out how to make sure it does NTP. Is it safe to assume that it does both SNTP and NTP out of the box, and the user of SNTP in no way compromises its use of NTP? Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Website "motto"?
Antony Stone said on Thu, 20 Jan 2022 11:53:07 +0100 >On Thursday 20 January 2022 at 11:39:25, Steve Litt wrote: > >> goli...@devuan.org said on Thu, 20 Jan 2022 00:07:20 -0600 >> >> >THIS is the official Devuan logo: >> > >> >https://git.devuan.org/devuan/documentation/src/branch/master/art/graphics >> >/devuan-logo-1000x200.png >> >> Nice! >> >> SteveT > >You make it sound as though you have never installed Devuan... > >That logo appears on the installer screen every time you create a >machine. I don't pay a lot of attention to aesthetic components unless they're pointed out to me. I've probably installed Devuan about 8 times, all on qemu VMs. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ntp setup
Rick Moen said on Tue, 22 Jun 2021 01:51:35 -0700 >Quoting Olaf Meeuwissen (paddy-h...@member.fsf.org): > >> I think it's fair to point out that systemd-timesyncd only promises >> Simple NTP (SNTP). How good a job it does of that is another matter >> but at least it explains some of the "quirks" you mention below. [snip] >Or, to put it a different way, with several excellent genuine NTP >clients to choose among, I deny the existence of a compelling use-case >for any SNTP client, I use openntpd. Is that NTP, or only SNTP? What are some full NTP time systems for Linux? Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Qt, KDE, unbelievable
Hi all, Read this: https://www.neowin.net/news/ads-may-be-coming-to-kde-the-popular-linux-desktop/ LOL, I removed every bit of KDE, its executables and libraries, in 2012. Mostly for the same reasons I refuse to host systemd. Now comes the possibility of ads on KDE applications. But it's even worse, because Qt is doing it, so non-KDE apps might be involved, including the LXQt I've recommended as an alternative to the deprecated LXDE. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Website "motto"?
goli...@devuan.org said on Thu, 20 Jan 2022 00:07:20 -0600 >THIS is the official Devuan logo: > >https://git.devuan.org/devuan/documentation/src/branch/master/art/graphics/devuan-logo-1000x200.png Nice! SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Website "motto"?
Antony Stone said on Wed, 19 Jan 2022 22:03:23 +0100 >On Wednesday 19 January 2022 at 21:59:46, Steve Litt wrote: > >> goli...@devuan.org said on Tue, 18 Jan 2022 20:49:41 >> > >> >Like this? https://transfer.sh/cTgmNi/if-rev2.png >> >> For the first 36 hours after you posted this, I thought "if" was the >> English word "if", not "Internet Freedom" or whatever. Short and to >> the point works only if you don't need an accompanying explanation. > >So, maybe two different colours (or at least shades) for the two >letters? > >That could be enough to make people think of them separately. I doubt it. You and I think about init freedom daily. The person reading the logo? Not so much. Also, what does "init freedom" give them? We know, but do they? Honestly, I know it's hip today to say nothing negative, but I think maybe the best motto is "Don't get stuck with systemd", with that phrase being an obvious link, leading to a short list of reasons why you don't want to get stuck with systemd: * Systemd is DIY hostile * For problems not on the systemd diagnostic "script", systemd makes troubleshooting much more difficult * Systemd has a gargantuan attack surface * Systemd affirmatively and intentionally stumbling-blocks other init installations. * Systemd replaces working solutions with new, questionable solutions SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Website "motto"?
k...@aspodata.se said on Wed, 19 Jan 2022 10:55:11 +0100 (CET) >Curtis: >> > On Jan 18, 2022, at 9:49 PM, goli...@devuan.org wrote: >> > On 2022-01-18 16:33, o1bigtenor via Dng wrote: >> >> Maybe something like "init freedom - - - your first step . . . " >> >> >... >> “Your first step matters” > >I'd prefer something that say that you as an owner is in control and >has the final say. That you are not subjected to random choises by >some clique. "Devuan respects your workflow!" SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Website "motto"?
Curtis Maurand via Dng said on Tue, 18 Jan 2022 22:18:47 -0500 >Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 18, 2022, at 9:49 PM, goli...@devuan.org wrote: >> >> On 2022-01-18 16:33, o1bigtenor via Dng wrote: >>> Maybe something like "init freedom - - - your first step . . . " >> >> Like this? https://transfer.sh/cTgmNi/if-rev2.png >> >> Will need to be discussed at our weekly … > >“Your first step matters” What does "Your first step matters" even mean? My first step in selecting a distro? The fact that this is about PID1? SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Website "motto"?
goli...@devuan.org said on Tue, 18 Jan 2022 20:49:41 -0600 >On 2022-01-18 16:33, o1bigtenor via Dng wrote: >> >> Maybe something like "init freedom - - - your first step . . . " >> > >Like this? https://transfer.sh/cTgmNi/if-rev2.png For the first 36 hours after you posted this, I thought "if" was the English word "if", not "Internet Freedom" or whatever. Short and to the point works only if you don't need an accompanying explanation. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Website "motto"?
Syeed Ali said on Wed, 19 Jan 2022 09:56:59 -0800 >On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 22:59:35 -0600 >goli...@devuan.org wrote: > >> Or this might be even better https://transfer.sh/CeUT0r/if-rev3.png > >I submit: > >"Freedom includes init choice." Very nice!!!! SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] nftables firewall and fail2ban replacement.
onefang said on Wed, 12 Jan 2022 23:49:39 +1000 >I've been using shorewall and fail2ban for a while now, but nftables is >soon replacing iptables, so it's time to consider some options. I can't tell whether you're addressing the firewall on a single computer, or the firewall between your LAN and the Internet. If the former, now that https://www.tomsguide.com/news/router-attack-netusb-flaw , I'm going to replace the firewall functions of my Spectrum Cable Modem with an OpenBSD PF firewall. An excellent documentation set of PF is at https://www.tomsguide.com/news/router-attack-netusb-flaw , and there's an excellent sample firewall config at https://www.openbsd.org/faq/pf/filter.html#example . Having looked at pfSense, iptables, nftables, IPFire, Openwall, and OPNsense, I find plain old pf superior for a firewall appliance. If you need the same machine to be a DHCP server, I'd just install a BSD DHCP server on the same machine. If I wanted a DNS server on the firewall machine (I don't) instead of on one of my LAN machines (which I do), I'd install unbound and nsd on the BSD machine. == If you meant the firewall on one Linux machine, you obviously can't use the BSD-onlty pf. I've found iptables to be quite useable, and haven't yet tried nftables. I tried Shorewall and found it to add tremendous complication to iptables and it seems to outsmart itself when trying to do something out of the ordinary, so I just resorted to iptables. I haven't tried fail2ban, and would like to hear more about it. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Youtube is slow and advertisement laden: Was: Early Days at Bell Labs - Youtube, the systemd of video
ael via Dng said on Sun, 16 Jan 2022 11:56:51 + >On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 04:12:44AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: >> >> This was discussed on the devuan-offtopic IRC channel, so I watched >> the video: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECCr_KFl41E > >But youtube has become impossible to watch with hideous intrusive >deviant advertisements... Impossible is lifting a Cadillac over your head with just your body's muscles. Annoying is Youtube advertisements. Youtube is still watchable. And, if you hate advertisements, you can just subscribe to Youtube Premium and not get them. > And google seem to have found a way to make >youtube-dl hopelessly slow. This throttling of youtube-dl is inconvenient but not life-altering. You can make a list of videos you want to download, put them all in a shellscript, and set it off just before you go to bed. The next day you'll have all the videos. Here's a tip: Be sure to use the --restrict-filenames option so you don't get hard to rename filenames. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Genuine, legitimate Early Days at Bell Labs - Youtube, the systemd of video: Was: Early Days at Bell Labs - Youtube, the systemd of video
ael via Dng said on Sun, 16 Jan 2022 11:56:51 + >On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 04:12:44AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: >> >> This was discussed on the devuan-offtopic IRC channel, so I watched >> the video: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECCr_KFl41E > >But youtube has become impossible to watch with hideous intrusive > >A bit off topic, I know... Yes, and for that reason I wish you'd changed the subject line to reflect your message. Now, does anybody have anything to say about the CONTENT of the video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECCr_KFl41E ? SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs
Hi all, This was discussed on the devuan-offtopic IRC channel, so I watched the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECCr_KFl41E It's Brian Kernighan discussing the formation of Unix, starting from the back story of the creation of Bell Labs, including predecessors CTSS and Multics, and C predecessors BCPL which was modified to become B, and why Dennis Richie added types to B to make C. This video really hits its stride when Kernighan discusses piping and redirection, and the ease of creating wonderful things out of small parts that, and Kernighan used these words, "do one thing and do it well." I felt like I was watching a fellow traveller who respected simplicity, and creating powerful systems from simple tools. It was a much needed reaffirmation for a guy who, when he's not with his Devuan buddies, endures countless taunts for not using the pulseaudio-mandated Zoom, or a Mac, or even Windows. They call me a tinkerer, even though my user interface has changed not one bit in seven years (Openbox with dmenu and UMENU2). Kind of ironic considering the changes their beloved Gnome and KDE have put them through during that time. This video is such a breath of fresh air in a world worshipping Gates, Jobs and Poettering. I suggest you watch it. I think it will bring a smile to your face. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [OT] bash / quote weirdness
Simon said on Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:38:56 + >Steve Litt wrote: > >> This is one reason why, in shellscripts, you >> need to quote almost all variables: So they act correctly with the >> space laden filenames that windows dwoobydogs just love to create. > >Not just Windows users. I regularly use spaces in file names. > >There’s an argument that computers should be tools, not slavemasters. >I’m sure you’ll remember going back a few decades how interacting with >computers meant that the human had to learn how to deal with the >computer’s way of doing things. The preceding is true to a great extent. But not a total extent. There's a tradeoff between user friendly and program simplicity. I don't think substituting underscores for spaces **in filenames** is a substantial inconvenience for the user. [snip] >Similarly with file names. Once upon a time the human had to adapt to >what the computer supported - such as fitting your entire file name >into 8 characters. But that kind of restriction isn't being discussed here. It's a strawman. > Now the computer (mostly) supports what is natural >for a human - and that includes using spaces in their writing. >After_all_it_does_seem_a_bit_un-natural_not_being_allowed_to_use_spaces_in_your_writing_-_it_would_make_a_hard_to_read_book_! We're not talking about books. Or text files. Or anything except filenames. Very_few_people_make_filenames_this_long, and if they do, with a little practice it's pretty easy to use underscore instead of space. As long as we're strawmanning, let's go all the way. Instead of issuing "file not found" when a filename isn't found, we can include an AI module in every program that decides what the user *really* meant when typing in the filename. It can analyze every filename on the computer, perhaps look at its contents, and then decide which the user really wanted, and open that one. Or, if the file is clicked from a file manager type interface, the AI can analyze all similarly named files in that directory and others, and issue an "Are you sure" with ranked choices of other possibilities. My point is that sure a computer should be more of a tool than a slavemaster, but it's a tradeoff, not an absolute. There's a spectrum. Programming around every conceivable filename increases software complexity. Let's not forget that simplicity and small attack surface are assets. One more thing: One person's "user friendly" is another person's "user hostile". The "we do it all for you" interface aiding the person not willing to bend at all to the machine is the "we get in your way" interface for the person who wants to bend the machine to his/her workflow. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [OT] bash / quote weirdness
Olaf Meeuwissen said on Fri, 14 Jan 2022 18:40:40 +0900 >Hi, > >Steve Litt writes: > >> [...] Here at Troubleshooters.Com, spaces and all punctuation except >> underscore and hyphen are forbidden, but files coming in from the >> outside have horrible filenames. > >Pretty sure you allow periods too ;-P Yes, I allow periods too. Forgot about that. But I try to use the periods only to separate the filetype and try to have only one period in the fileNAME. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] bash / quote weirdness
Benjamin Riefenstahl said on Fri, 14 Jan 2022 10:33:29 +0100 >Hi Steve, > >> Benjamin Riefenstahl said on Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:19:23 +0100 >>>Different code paths within Bash. [...] > >Steve Litt writes: >> This is true, but not the explanation for this particular behavior, >> as follows: >> >> [slitt@mydesk ~]$ /usr/bin/cat -n /etc/fstab | cut -b 1-20 | head -n5 >> 1 UUID=730eaf92 >> 2 UUID=41abb5fd >> 3 UUID=96cfdfb3 >> 4 UUID=6F66-BF7 >> 5 tmpfs /tmp tm >> [slitt@mydesk ~]$ "/usr/bin/cat -n" /etc/fstab | cut -b 1-20 | head >> -n5 bash: /usr/bin/cat -n: No such file or directory >> [slitt@mydesk ~]$ "/usr/bin/cat -n /etc/fstab" | cut -b 1-20 | head >> -n5 bash: /usr/bin/cat -n /etc/fstab: No such file or directory >> [slitt@mydesk ~]$ > >I'm sorry, but I don't see it? Can you point out what is suprising to >you here? Both commands contain "/", and both give the same error >message. > >so long, benny I thought you were saying that the cause of "cat -n" /etc/fstab being seen as one command was due to cat not having a full path, so I put a full path in front of it. If you weren't saying lack of a full path is the cause of "cat -n" being considered a single command, then my prepending the full path produces no surprise at all. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] bash / quote weirdness
Hendrik Boom said on Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:15:28 -0500 >On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 12:45:09PM -0500, . via Dng wrote: > >> >> The shell receives a series of tokens, and tries to interpret the >> first one as a command. In the double-quoted attempt above, it gets >> two tokens before the first pipe | --- >> >> 1) "cat -n" >> >> 2) /etc/fstab >> >> Of course, the system has no command named "cat -n". (And only a >> chaotic evil person would use a space in a command's name.) >> Something like "cat" "-n" /etc/fstab > >Maybe to keep anyone from executing a potentially danterous command by >mistake? Yeah, that too. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
