Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
On 2018-07-26 11:09 PM, spiralofhope wrote: On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 21:49:45 +0900 Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: KatolaZ writes: The medium-term plan is to replace libsystemd0 with a libnosystemd ... +1, although I'd prefer a more original and playful name ;-) libsystemc =p That's going to fly below the radar better than something obviously rude. libsystemd0hn0 would be my choice. (-; Clarke ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:55:21 -0500, goli...@dyne.org wrote in message <8bf10b143787869cbb7e72c798927...@dyne.org>: > On 2018-07-27 09:37, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: > > > > I did not mean to drop the hack. I only meant to not make it part > > of a package with a name that associates with init-freedom. Keep > > the hack and put it in a differently named package. Maybe > > something like > > > > rabid-foaming-at-the-mouth-systemd-reference-removal-zealot > > > > ;-P > > -- > > Olaf Meeuwissen, > > How about "potty-wipe" ..clearly a more respectful name. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 22:00:06 +0900 Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: > I just realized that true init-freedom should be systemd-inclusive, so > don't put that dpkg-cfg hack in any kind of "init-freedom" package, > please. I'm pretty sure I was the person who originated the phrase "init-freedom". This can be fact-checked on the Debian-User mailing list archives for the second half of 2014. Init-freedom is a marketing phrase, created to counter all the systemd bullshit. A few facts... * Devuan has absolutely no duty to facilitate installation of systemd or any of its components on a Devuan system. Those wanting systemd have plenty of other choices without Devuan. * Anything that destroys or detains systemd in the marketplace improves init-freedom, because systemd in init systems in that it explicitly prevents init replacement. * Init-freedom is not a grand concept to be sought after. It is 1) An anti-systemd marketing phrase, and, 2) The normal state of affairs before systemd reared its ugly head. Use the phrase all you want in winning arguments against the logical-fallacy laden systemd spokesmen, but don't take it too seriously. SteveT Steve Litt Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
On 2018-07-27 09:37, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: I did not mean to drop the hack. I only meant to not make it part of a package with a name that associates with init-freedom. Keep the hack and put it in a differently named package. Maybe something like rabid-foaming-at-the-mouth-systemd-reference-removal-zealot ;-P -- Olaf Meeuwissen, How about "potty-wipe" golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
Hi, Arnt Karlsen writes: > On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 22:00:06 +0900, Olaf wrote in message > <87va92gnjd@member.fsf.org>: > >> Hi, >> >> Minor correction in-lined below. >> >> Olaf Meeuwissen writes: >> >> > Hi, >> > >> > KatolaZ writes: >> > >> >> The medium-term plan is to replace libsystemd0 with a libnosystemd >> >> which Provides: libsystemd0 and noops everything, with the >> >> possibility of shelling-out some actions, if the admin wants so. >> >> We will get there. >> > >> > +1, although I'd prefer a more original and playful name ;-) >> > >> > # Not that I have any bright ideas right now :-( >> > >> > d-systemized ... perhaps >> > >> > For the library stubs and the [dpkg.cfg hack][1] I posted just a >> > minute or so ago? Dang! Should have retitled that post :-( >> > >> > [1]: >> > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20180726.123546.eacb6518.en.html >> > >> > Anyway, most of this is just cosmetic surgery as long as systemd >> > itself stays out of the system. And systemd-boot, nee gummiboot, >> > out of the installer as well. BTW, the cosmetic surgery angle >> > might be a nice avenue to explore for package names! >> > >> > # init-freedom-botox ... :-\ >> > # Maybe just plain init-freedom? >> >> I just realized that true init-freedom should be systemd-inclusive, so >> don't put that dpkg-cfg hack in any kind of "init-freedom" package, >> please. > > ..I respectfully disagree, keep or put in that dpkg-cfg hack. I did not mean to drop the hack. I only meant to not make it part of a package with a name that associates with init-freedom. Keep the hack and put it in a differently named package. Maybe something like rabid-foaming-at-the-mouth-systemd-reference-removal-zealot ;-P -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 22:00:06 +0900, Olaf wrote in message <87va92gnjd@member.fsf.org>: > Hi, > > Minor correction in-lined below. > > Olaf Meeuwissen writes: > > > Hi, > > > > KatolaZ writes: > > > >> The medium-term plan is to replace libsystemd0 with a libnosystemd > >> which Provides: libsystemd0 and noops everything, with the > >> possibility of shelling-out some actions, if the admin wants so. > >> We will get there. > > > > +1, although I'd prefer a more original and playful name ;-) > > > > # Not that I have any bright ideas right now :-( > > > > d-systemized ... perhaps > > > > For the library stubs and the [dpkg.cfg hack][1] I posted just a > > minute or so ago? Dang! Should have retitled that post :-( > > > > [1]: > > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20180726.123546.eacb6518.en.html > > > > Anyway, most of this is just cosmetic surgery as long as systemd > > itself stays out of the system. And systemd-boot, nee gummiboot, > > out of the installer as well. BTW, the cosmetic surgery angle > > might be a nice avenue to explore for package names! > > > > # init-freedom-botox ... :-\ > > # Maybe just plain init-freedom? > > I just realized that true init-freedom should be systemd-inclusive, so > don't put that dpkg-cfg hack in any kind of "init-freedom" package, > please. ..I respectfully disagree, keep or put in that dpkg-cfg hack. ..the philosophical and principled true init freedom is best fixed with an option to DL & Use Debian's installer instead of our own installer "If You Are Sure You Know What You Are Doing." ..remember, we _could_ be wrong on trumpists and pötterware and climate change deniers, they _could_ be the good guys after all, there's still that insane theoretical possibility that Mankind is Wrong in Believing the Good Common Sense in What We All See. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 07:09:59PM +, Daniel Abrecht wrote: [cut] > > Another problem could arise though, how stable are the systemd APIs? I > once wrote https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/sd_journal_shim , it > generates the libjournal library and just provides a subset of > systemds logging functions so it can be used as a shim for those, even > though it can't replace libsystemd. I think it's still in > experimental, even though I'm not sure if it still works, because > thankfully, noone seams to use the systemd journald APIs still, so > noone seams to have had any need for this shim. > I have actually gone all the way down the rabbit's hole [*], and discovered that part of the libsystemd API, that is the stuff normally used by most of the services to tell systemd that they are alive and is mostly what we are talking about here, has been "frozen" and guaranteed to remain stable. So nooping them once should be sufficient. journald is another beast, but it shouldn't be hard to transform most of the calls into equivalent syslog calls and/or optional shellouts. It would be good if more people would join the effor of actually getting into the rabbit hole. I should actually put in git.devuan.org the repo I am currently working on. The more, the merrier. HND KatolaZ [*] You can fear only what you don't understand, and you can successfully fight only what you fully understood. -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 21:49:45 +0900 Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: > KatolaZ writes: > > > The medium-term plan is to replace libsystemd0 with a libnosystemd > > ... > > +1, although I'd prefer a more original and playful name ;-) libsystemc =p ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2018-07-26 14:32, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > It would help maintaining packages that depend on systemd too. You > only would have to add some code to use the libnosystemd instead > of libsystemd0. If a libnosystemd package provides libsystemd, then there shouldn't be any additional code or checks necessary in existing programs. But both, replicating and changing "the libsystemd API" is wrong. libsystemd is really badly and monolithically designed. It's main problem is that it doesn't have an API, it has a lot of different APIs in a single library! This prevents providing packages with dynamic libraries replacing only one of the APIs. Therefore, ideally, the systemd developers should split the libsystemd libraries in smaller ones providing just one API per library. Something like libjournal for their logging API for example, instead of munching it together with everything else in libsystemd0. But I doubt that anyone of the systemd devs ever had that insight, I would even suspect they put everything in the same library on purpose, allegedly for simplicity, but in reality for better lockin. If a libnosystemd package is made, the different systemd APIs should be defined, then some library names, and finally it should do nothing more than forwarding the libsystemd function calls to the individual libraries for the different APIs if said library exists, and otherwise either do nothing or return an error depending on what would be worse. This way, it would be possible for different people to provide various implementations for different systemd APIs, without requiring them to implement all of them. Another problem could arise though, how stable are the systemd APIs? I once wrote https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/sd_journal_shim , it generates the libjournal library and just provides a subset of systemds logging functions so it can be used as a shim for those, even though it can't replace libsystemd. I think it's still in experimental, even though I'm not sure if it still works, because thankfully, noone seams to use the systemd journald APIs still, so noone seams to have had any need for this shim. Also, I think any such library should make it clear that it's existents doesn't justify libsystemd usage and discourage developers from using it. On 2018-07-26 16:17, Steve Litt wrote: > sysvinit and OpenRC typically have init scripts tens or > hundreds of lines, making init integration of an application seem > like an arcane art. What are they thinking? IMHO these immense and > unfathomable init scripts are what opened the door for systemd. > Those init scripts allow for any kind of scripting language to be used, and thus also allow for the usage of ones that look like unit scripts. I made an interpreter that allows yaml for declarative init scripts that could be used with sysvinit or openrc: https://github.com/Daniel-Abrecht/unitscript Daniel Abrecht -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQFIBAEBCAAyFiEEZT8xKpcJ1eXNKSM1cASjafdLVoEFAltaHIEUHG1lQGRhbmll bGFicmVjaHQuY2gACgkQcASjafdLVoGFbQgAsMfbIVyfKDj3Ze962oUrqSZoNFLR cTxcu73bUQxHuDVJhd9myXExBYtZgXtKLPMiCrIrOdKzwpGWNLkola7Fg2ggYQgJ jbWitQrpTgkUY3hrBdzkU8hBjKFkbMo7uXFGWbLa1q36gUyUwz44lX3HA8FM69Ax FYb4Cz6eLW7iDrWUtt3Ti5Ku4r8VY0nAgMNRP9U/fE5jrsVl5eSvtHkfOsfICMrR I13RtJ2evFkAty4HWicDrh3ejagLPP353jgRC7POjCaPdgEABd6CrHhIyYbJpkVS EYLl7ZJHaw171pKrQz6WRSTX/Xl/ybt+vv91Ia8TpHzgVKjsSDLGgORnQw== =Lc8K -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
On 26-07-18 18:21, Steve Litt wrote: > On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 16:13:41 +0200 > info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > >> No it would not, it will offer developers who want to use some systemd >> API call in their development the opportunity to do so for nosystemd >> systems too. > Eu! > > What makes you different from the devs at Gnome? If it weren't for devs > taking advantage of this "opportunity", systemd would not have a > hegemony today. > > If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence > http://www.troubleshooters.com/key > Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt You did read this part too? > It would help maintaining packages that depend on systemd too. You only > would have to add some code to use the libnosystemd instead of > libsystemd0. Like if no systemd installed then use libnosystemd. > Depending of which API calls are used in the program and which are > supported by libnosystemd you would have to do less. And you are not > depending on a monolithic binary blob like systemd because you can > script any API call the way you like it. Do not forget that developers make and maintain almost all the software in use on your system. If you can make their life and your own easier what is wrong with that? Grtz Nick ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 16:13:41 +0200 info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > No it would not, it will offer developers who want to use some systemd > API call in their development the opportunity to do so for nosystemd > systems too. Eu! What makes you different from the devs at Gnome? If it weren't for devs taking advantage of this "opportunity", systemd would not have a hegemony today. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. SteveT Steve Litt Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 04:13:41PM +0200, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: [cut] > > But that would entail forking and patching all the packages which use > > libsystemd to force them to check if systemd is available... which is > > exactly what we are trying to avoid by nooping libsystemd0... :P > > > > HND > > > > KatolaZ > > > No it would not, it will offer developers who want to use some systemd > API call in their development the opportunity to do so for nosystemd > systems too. > Developers who do not use libsystemd0 now because they do not need it or > cannot afford it (embedded systems with a small memory footprint) can > easily ignore it. > I guess our main problem is to maintain packages that depend on systemd, and provide alternatives for that dependency. Not to ease the life of developers that decide to rely on system. Even because I doubt that such an API would ever be accepted upstream (i.e., by systemd developers). > But may be we better discuss this on dev1galaxy instead of this list. > Why should we? This list is more than adequate for such discussions, I guess. I personally never liked forums :\ HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
On 26-07-18 14:05, KatolaZ wrote: >> Of course does the libsystemd API not provide it, but we can. First call >> to libsystemd API == systemd installed? If no, call to libnosystemd API >> which init system == installed? Or something like that. But put in place >> a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls to libsystemd functions >> to a set of scripts with pre-defined names would make libnosystemd far >> more useful imo. Especially for developers. >> > But that would entail forking and patching all the packages which use > libsystemd to force them to check if systemd is available... which is > exactly what we are trying to avoid by nooping libsystemd0... :P > > HND > > KatolaZ > No it would not, it will offer developers who want to use some systemd API call in their development the opportunity to do so for nosystemd systems too. Developers who do not use libsystemd0 now because they do not need it or cannot afford it (embedded systems with a small memory footprint) can easily ignore it. But may be we better discuss this on dev1galaxy instead of this list. Grtz. Nick signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
Hi, Minor correction in-lined below. Olaf Meeuwissen writes: > Hi, > > KatolaZ writes: > >> The medium-term plan is to replace libsystemd0 with a libnosystemd >> which Provides: libsystemd0 and noops everything, with the possibility >> of shelling-out some actions, if the admin wants so. We will get >> there. > > +1, although I'd prefer a more original and playful name ;-) > > # Not that I have any bright ideas right now :-( > > d-systemized ... perhaps > > For the library stubs and the [dpkg.cfg hack][1] I posted just a minute > or so ago? Dang! Should have retitled that post :-( > > [1]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20180726.123546.eacb6518.en.html > > Anyway, most of this is just cosmetic surgery as long as systemd itself > stays out of the system. And systemd-boot, nee gummiboot, out of the > installer as well. BTW, the cosmetic surgery angle might be a nice > avenue to explore for package names! > > # init-freedom-botox ... :-\ > # Maybe just plain init-freedom? I just realized that true init-freedom should be systemd-inclusive, so don't put that dpkg-cfg hack in any kind of "init-freedom" package, please. > Remember, coming up with a neat name is half the fun of an open source > software project ;-) Hope this helps, -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)
Hi, KatolaZ writes: > The medium-term plan is to replace libsystemd0 with a libnosystemd > which Provides: libsystemd0 and noops everything, with the possibility > of shelling-out some actions, if the admin wants so. We will get > there. +1, although I'd prefer a more original and playful name ;-) # Not that I have any bright ideas right now :-( d-systemized ... perhaps For the library stubs and the [dpkg.cfg hack][1] I posted just a minute or so ago? Dang! Should have retitled that post :-( [1]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20180726.123546.eacb6518.en.html Anyway, most of this is just cosmetic surgery as long as systemd itself stays out of the system. And systemd-boot, nee gummiboot, out of the installer as well. BTW, the cosmetic surgery angle might be a nice avenue to explore for package names! # init-freedom-botox ... :-\ # Maybe just plain init-freedom? Remember, coming up with a neat name is half the fun of an open source software project ;-) Hope this helps, -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
