Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[aitor_czr]

Hi,

On 04/14/2017 01:13 PM, Jaromil  wrote:

What is GUIX ?

distro-agnostic packaging system done right (aka using a functional
language)
https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Invoking-guix-package.html

ciao
Somebody talked about GUIX in the past (here or in the IRC Channel), one 
of the libre distros endorsed by the FSF. It uses Lisp in its packaging 
system, i seem to remember.


Cheers,

  Aitor.


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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[golinux]

On 2017-04-14 05:44, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote:

On 14.04.2017 12:05, Jaromil wrote:


can't look deeper into it now, but well, we can consider it at least
as a reference for people preparing and fixing packages.


Can we aggree on some common naming scheme ?



Perhaps these pages will help to clarify Devuan's  naming scheme and 
packaging protocol:


https://devuan.org/os/filenaming

and

https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=549

golinux


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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 14.04.2017 13:16, Jaromil wrote:

> because people think different :^) apologies for my 'done right' btw,
> was teasing and yea I'm an opinionated lambdaboy :^)

I haven't yet understood what the exact problem to solve, and how that
actually supposed to work.

CMIIW, but to me it looks pretty much like per-user installs. For that
to work across distros (guess we're talking about binary packages),
it would end up in having yet another distro in your $HOME.
In that case we could just do something w/ docker and automatically
mounting your home in there (a bit similar as schroot does) - IOW
use docker for chroot setup and schroot for running applications.


--mtx

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Jaromil]

On Fri, 14 Apr 2017, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote:

> On 14.04.2017 12:05, Jaromil wrote:
> 
> > distro-agnostic packaging system done right (aka using a functional
> > language)
> > https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Invoking-guix-package.html
> 
> hmm, yet another package manager ?
> 
> Why not just using docker+friends ?

because people think different :^) apologies for my 'done right' btw,
was teasing and yea I'm an opinionated lambdaboy :^)

ciao



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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 14.04.2017 12:05, Jaromil wrote:

> can't look deeper into it now, but well, we can consider it at least
> as a reference for people preparing and fixing packages.

Can we aggree on some common naming scheme ?

For now I'm just using / as prefix (which is used by my
pbuilder-based packaging tool for detecting the target distro),
but I'm open for discussion. The most important point for me is
having the whole tree (with all patches and debian/ subdir applied)
in one tree, so I never have to cope w/ extra patchqueues anymore.

Perhaps we could also move the upstream's master to a different name
and use that branch for as some starting point for per-package docs,
eg. branch descriptions, etc, etc (maybe as md/textile-based wiki)

>> What is GUIX ?
> 
> distro-agnostic packaging system done right (aka using a functional
> language)
> https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Invoking-guix-package.html

hmm, yet another package manager ?

Why not just using docker+friends ?


--mtx

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Jaromil]

On Fri, 14 Apr 2017, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote:

> On 14.04.2017 11:37, Jaromil wrote:
> 
> > being heavily based on git, it could be well compatible with Devuan's
> > architecture. We'd certainly support the project. 
> 
> maybe you'd like to have a look at my github repos to get a better
> idea of my approach:
> 
> https://github.com/oss-qm
> https://github.com/metux
> 
> My intention was to use the 'oss-qm' organisation as a central hub.
> (i don't really care where it's hosted, it just should be easy to
> use for everybody)

can't look deeper into it now, but well, we can consider it at least
as a reference for people preparing and fixing packages.


> 
> > It could be
> > interesting to make it first and foremost compatible with GUIX
> > packaging, which is something we do want to support in the long term.
> 
> What is GUIX ?

distro-agnostic packaging system done right (aka using a functional
language)
https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Invoking-guix-package.html

ciao

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 14.04.2017 11:37, Jaromil wrote:

> being heavily based on git, it could be well compatible with Devuan's
> architecture. We'd certainly support the project. 

maybe you'd like to have a look at my github repos to get a better
idea of my approach:

https://github.com/oss-qm
https://github.com/metux

My intention was to use the 'oss-qm' organisation as a central hub.
(i don't really care where it's hosted, it just should be easy to
use for everybody)

> It could be
> interesting to make it first and foremost compatible with GUIX
> packaging, which is something we do want to support in the long term.

What is GUIX ?


--mtx

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Jaromil]

On Fri, 14 Apr 2017, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote:

> Several years ago, I started a project called 'oss-qm' which aimed to
> collect maintenance branches for lots of packages, which solve the
> common problems in a generic way (instead of all the dist specific
> patches), so distros can base their branches on that. The problem then
> wasn't systemd (which handn't been invented yet), but poor upstream QM.

[...]

> Anybody here interested in that ?

being heavily based on git, it could be well compatible with Devuan's
architecture. We'd certainly support the project. It could be
interesting to make it first and foremost compatible with GUIX
packaging, which is something we do want to support in the long term.

ciao

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 14.04.2017 09:49, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 09:14:32AM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult 
> wrote:

> ...err...by upstream you mean Debian? Then I am lost. 

I meant the actual upstreams, but dists like debian too.

> Most of the systemd-specific stuff in those packages has been added by
> the Debian packagers themselves, to abide to the plans of conqering
> the world with a Blitzkrieg.

I guess we just wouldn't take those patches into our queues.
If those area the only ones, we'll have an empty queue, therefore
nothing to be sent.

Of course, sooner or later we'd want some kind of tracking, which
patches we've already processed, so we eg. never look again on the
rejected ones.

> Debian has made her decision. I know it's hard to believe for a
> long-time Debianist, but they have effectively no intention of
> supporting anything else than systemd.

Well, let's see. I dont intend to spend much time (as w/ any other
distro I'm not using myself). Just some (semi-)automatic posting,
just a little glue around git-send-email called by cron ...

Actually, I'm seeing that not limited to depotterization (that's just
a good usecase to start with), but any patches that some distro
(or in embedded case: bsp maintainer) might add ontop certain
upstream tree and can be useful for others.


--mtx

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[KatolaZ]

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 09:14:32AM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult 
wrote:

[cut]

> 
> > Look, today Devuan lives with using mostly Debian packages, a small
> > fraction of which being de-poetterized. 
> 
> That's already a good thing, and really should be continued. But the
> corresponding patches should also go to the upstreams.
> 

...err...by upstream you mean Debian? Then I am lost. Most of the
systemd-specific stuff in those packages has been added by the Debian
packagers themselves, to abide to the plans of conqering the world
with a Blitzkrieg. People are struggling to get those silly deps out,
and now you would like those patches to go back to Debian? Again, to
what avail?

Try to submit a patch like that by yourself, and see how long does it
take for the "PLONK" sound to he heard loud and clear, from a
distance.

Debian has made her decision. I know it's hard to believe for a
long-time Debianist, but they have effectively no intention of
supporting anything else than systemd. You should try to accept this
as a fact, after 30 months, go through the the appropriate
bereavement, and move on.

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 16.03.2017 12:10, Didier Kryn wrote:

> Many free software developper teams proved already they are mostly
> working for themselves - eg Gnome, KDE, Firefox. When people develop
> software for free, they put a lot of their ego in it, and this goes
> against the ability to recognize ones own mistakes or bad decisions; I
> think this is the weak point of free software.

Well, that also applies to us, also any distro, and I dont see a major
problem here.

We just need some way to reduce the amount of duplicate work.

Several years ago, I started a project called 'oss-qm' which aimed to
collect maintenance branches for lots of packages, which solve the
common problems in a generic way (instead of all the dist specific
patches), so distros can base their branches on that. The problem then
wasn't systemd (which handn't been invented yet), but poor upstream QM.

Unfortunately, nobody jumped up and it was way too much for me alone.

Maybe Devuan could be a good place for giving it a fresh start.
We'd also collect all the depotterizing patches (along w/ others)
there and regularily post our queues to the upstreams.

I'm pretty agnostic on how the process actually works, just a small
set of requirements:

* always the full trees in a git repo
* dist-specific branches should be named w/ / prefix
  and contain all build files, w/o additional patching
  (IOW: patches already applied instead of extra files)
* for each supported version there should be separate maint branch,
  where the dists can base theirs on
* some (per package) central repo where all branches from around the
  world are collected.

Anybody here interested in that ?

> They just don't care, as long as developpers comply with their
> requirements. Even some developpers are only concerned with the amount
> of work implied for them by the init system, and prefer systemd just
> because of that - good example in the thread pointed by
> dotcom...@autistici.org:
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2017-03/msg00017.html.

application developers should't ever provide any dist specific stuff
like init scripts (except examples). instead should tell what's
necessary for running their stuff.

> Look, today Devuan lives with using mostly Debian packages, a small
> fraction of which being de-poetterized. 

That's already a good thing, and really should be continued. But the
corresponding patches should also go to the upstreams.

> Debian will continue living by mirroring Devuan and poetterizing some 
> of the packages; they'll not give up.

That would be quite a fun.


 --mtx
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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 16.03.2017 11:20, Alessandro Selli wrote:

>   «Got agetty to compile with systemd. Seems like systemd puts deamons
>   in the /sbin/ folder. However most openwrt utilities (util-linux)
>   installs them to /usr/sbin. Manually setting agetty to /sbin yields a
>   working console base for systemd on openwrt. Now im stuck on the
>   " login: " as systemdlogin does not compile correctly.»

People who haven't understood FHS. Barebox is similarily broken.

ptxdist folks now use that as an excuse to break even more: merging
both together. Even funnier that ptxdist is for embedded, and here
we tend to have even more demand for keeping that standardized
separation (eg not enough resources for initrd, field upgrades, ...)
Anyways, seems that ptxdist is strongly moving into a direction where
one just could use something like debian ...

--mtx

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 15.03.2017 14:20, Patrick Meade wrote:

> Those users just need to know where to go. A simple informative post (a
> sign post) to the thread will accomplish that.

+1

That could be repeated whenever some systemd-related problem comes up.

And devuan releases could be announced there, too.


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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 15.03.2017 18:52, Steve Litt wrote:

> Protesting against majorities at their home sometimes brings useful
> things to a minority, and if such protests go on often enough and long
> enough, they usually do.

Actually, it's one minority protesting against another one, in front
of the majority.

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Didier Kryn]

Hi Christopher.

Le 16/03/2017 03:32, Christopher Clements a écrit :


Microsoft said, and I quote:

"Note, however, that Compaq and Dell merely have to credibly threaten
Linux adoption in order to push for lower OEM OS pricing."


Linux distributions are the same way when it comes to users.


Customers' move is critical when cash-flow is at stake, not when 
only ego is.




If a huge chunk of your user base threatened to switch, you'd think
twice about doing whatever it is that they don't like.


Many free software developper teams proved already they are mostly 
working for themselves - eg Gnome, KDE, Firefox. When people develop 
software for free, they put a lot of their ego in it, and this goes 
against the ability to recognize ones own mistakes or bad decisions; I 
think this is the weak point of free software.




Debian knows that some people do not approve of systemd being mandatory,
but they might not now exactly _how many_ people disapprove.


They just don't care, as long as developpers comply with their 
requirements. Even some developpers are only concerned with the amount 
of work implied for them by the init system, and prefer systemd just 
because of that - good example in the thread pointed by 
dotcom...@autistici.org: 
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2017-03/msg00017.html.


Sorry, I would like to share your hopes, but experience shows 
they're wrong.


Look, today Devuan lives with using mostly Debian packages, a small 
fraction of which being de-poetterized. Let's be optimistic and assume 
that Devuan gets more and more success in the future, to the point that 
most developpers and maintainers come to it. Then the opposite situation 
will happen: Debian will continue living by mirroring Devuan and 
poetterizing some of the packages; they'll not give up. But we won't 
care, just like they don't care of us. WIll they complain on DNG?


Didier

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 11:20:35AM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote:

>   I think we should insist on cross-platform support and ease of porting:
> systemd is exclusively Linux, software written that has it as a
> hard-dependency cannot run on a generic POSIX-compliant system, widespread
> adoption of systemd will cause a rift between (no longer GNU/)Linux and any
> other OS, all other Unixes included, both free and proprietary.  This is bad,
> as it replicates in GNU/Linux the bad things that caused the Unix systems of
> old to lose market share: they were too difficult to be made to interoperate,
> software had to be ported for each architecture *and* OS, so that as soon as
> a cheaper and easier to cope with platform emerged the old, grumpy and too
> complicated ones suffered and eventually became irrelevant.  This is far from
> happening to GNU/Linux now, but systemd stalwartly walks that bad direction.
>   I wished I knew how the embedded-systems developers feel about systemd: is
> it making their work more difficult?  What impact is systemd having on
> porting GNU/Linux to IoT, mobile and real-time devices?

You can and should go on, but unfortunately I doubt that any technical
motivation would convince a herd of fanboys. If that was even remotely
possible, systemd would have not colonised Debian so easily and so
quickly.

systemd has become a religion. Whoever you speak to (within the
relatively small free software community), they would not be able to
image a world without systemd, which is so practical, so cool so
functional, so rock-solid, so next generation, so future. There is no
argument you can put forward for which they don't have already a
counterargument based on the gospel of Pottering, chapter X, line Y.

You can discuss logical arguments with somebody who understands logic
and is ready to play the game fairly. You never put logic in front of
faith: it's just worthless.

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Alessandro Selli]

Il giorno Wed, 15 Mar 2017 22:06:30 -0500
goli...@dyne.org ha scritto:

> On 2017-03-15 21:32, Christopher Clements wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:55:57AM -0500, goli...@dyne.org wrote:
>>> But what is the point?  Our freedoms are being eroded on all fronts -
>>> we are drowning in a tsunami of reversal of  choice dictated by those
>>> in power be they Debian or corporations or government.
>>> Rather than piss in the wind...
>>
>> To make this a metaphor, what about pissing _upwind_?
>> I've seen some others suggest notifying upstream developers that making
>> systemd mandatory is a bad idea, and it (notifying them) seems like a
>> good idea, if only to make things easier for Devuan porters.
>> 
>
> That is an excellent idea.  Would be great if someone got organized 
> enough to start a dialog with EVERY upstream dev individually and/or 
> collectively.  Unfortunately, that would be a mammoth task requiring 
> more time than most people could find.  I've done work like that on 
> various issues and know from experience, it is a full time job.

  I think we should insist on cross-platform support and ease of porting:
systemd is exclusively Linux, software written that has it as a
hard-dependency cannot run on a generic POSIX-compliant system, widespread
adoption of systemd will cause a rift between (no longer GNU/)Linux and any
other OS, all other Unixes included, both free and proprietary.  This is bad,
as it replicates in GNU/Linux the bad things that caused the Unix systems of
old to lose market share: they were too difficult to be made to interoperate,
software had to be ported for each architecture *and* OS, so that as soon as
a cheaper and easier to cope with platform emerged the old, grumpy and too
complicated ones suffered and eventually became irrelevant.  This is far from
happening to GNU/Linux now, but systemd stalwartly walks that bad direction.
  I wished I knew how the embedded-systems developers feel about systemd: is
it making their work more difficult?  What impact is systemd having on
porting GNU/Linux to IoT, mobile and real-time devices?

  I just checked on OpenWRT.  They tried two years ago, and had several
problems related to the RedHat-isms that pervade systemd, including this one:

https://forum.openwrt.org/viewtopic.php?id=49599

lifehacksback 2015-01-31 02:32:29

From: San Francisco
Registered: 2014-07-02
Posts: 360

«Got agetty to compile with systemd. Seems like systemd puts deamons
in the /sbin/ folder. However most openwrt utilities (util-linux)
installs them to /usr/sbin. Manually setting agetty to /sbin yields a
working console base for systemd on openwrt. Now im stuck on the
" login: " as systemdlogin does not compile correctly.»



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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Miles Fidelman]

On 3/15/17 9:14 PM, Christopher Clements wrote:



The exact suggestion is here:



That is an excellent idea.  Would be great if someone got organized
enough to start a dialog with EVERY upstream dev individually and/or
collectively.  Unfortunately, that would be a mammoth task requiring
more time than most people could find.  I've done work like that on
various issues and know from experience, it is a full time job.


Perhaps just an open letter?

It seemed relatively simple until you brought up the issue of actually
contacting all the developers (without using debian-devel, most likely).
I only thought about one aspect of it, and now it seems like it would
be _impossible_ without using debian-devel or mass-mailing every single
developer (out of the question).

I tried raising the question on libreplanet-discuss - asking what 
uptream developers are doing now.  Not a tremendous response, so far.


But maybe this would be a good workshop topic, or BOF session, at the 
upcoming libreplanet conference (sponsored by the Free Software 
Foundation) in Boston.  It's coming up right spanking now (March 25-6), 
at MIT.  An awful lot of open source upstream developers show up, and 
it's a good forum for discussion policy issues related to open source 
software.  https://www.libreplanet.org/2017/


It might be a little late to organize a formal talk or panel session, 
but someone might want to give the organizers a call.  BOFs are easy to 
setup - see https://libreplanet.org/wiki/LibrePlanet:Conference/2017


Everyone should also join FSF and the libreplanet-discuss list.

It's generally a good time, with good people.  I'm not sure I'll be able 
to make it - I live in the area, but I'm currently in AZ for an extended 
period, helping my 96-year-old Dad settle into a new house - not sure if 
I'll be back in time.


Hopefully someone from the Devuan team will be there, and can organize 
something.


Miles Fidelman

--
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In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Christopher Clements]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:06:30PM -0500, goli...@dyne.org wrote:

On 2017-03-15 21:32, Christopher Clements wrote:

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:55:57AM -0500, goli...@dyne.org wrote:

But what is the point?  Our freedoms are being eroded on all fronts -
we are drowning in a tsunami of reversal of  choice dictated by those
in power be they Debian or corporations or government.
Rather than piss in the wind...


To make this a metaphor, what about pissing _upwind_?
I've seen some others suggest notifying upstream developers that making
systemd mandatory is a bad idea, and it (notifying them) seems like a
good idea, if only to make things easier for Devuan porters.


The exact suggestion is here:



That is an excellent idea.  Would be great if someone got organized
enough to start a dialog with EVERY upstream dev individually and/or
collectively.  Unfortunately, that would be a mammoth task requiring
more time than most people could find.  I've done work like that on
various issues and know from experience, it is a full time job.


Perhaps just an open letter?

It seemed relatively simple until you brought up the issue of actually
contacting all the developers (without using debian-devel, most likely).
I only thought about one aspect of it, and now it seems like it would
be _impossible_ without using debian-devel or mass-mailing every single
developer (out of the question).

I might still be possible, but I personally cannot think of any way to
do it.

I don't see that putting my (insignificant) name on a list of 
whiners as a productive action.  It would just get laughed at and 
stomped on like ants by Paul Bunyan.


It's less about _who_ is on the list, and more about _how many_ names
are listed.

It's hard to deny there is a problem in the face of a veritable tsunami
of proof.


That depends on your definition of a 'veritable tsunami of proof'.
I have no idea what numbers might catch their attention but I imagine
it would have to be several hundred thousand at a minimum including a
long list of big names/enterprises.  That would be another excellent
project for someone reading this to take on.  Steve's list could just
be the first step.


It is my hope that the list will keep growing, and we can just link to
it whenever someone says that systemd only has "a few" detractors.


Why not follow your own tactical advice and DO something.  As for me
... I've already got my hands full.  From the time I get up in the
morning till lights out past midnight 7 days a week, I am working on
something to advance devuan in one way or another.


Just like you, I've got my hands full.  I've got a lot of college at
the moment, but I want to help in any way I can.

Thank you for working on Devuan; I'm not exactly capable of showing my
appreciation through email, but I still appreciate all you have done
nonetheless.

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[golinux]

On 2017-03-15 21:32, Christopher Clements wrote:

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:55:57AM -0500, goli...@dyne.org wrote:

But what is the point?  Our freedoms are being eroded on all fronts -
we are drowning in a tsunami of reversal of  choice dictated by those
in power be they Debian or corporations or government.
Rather than piss in the wind...


To make this a metaphor, what about pissing _upwind_?
I've seen some others suggest notifying upstream developers that making
systemd mandatory is a bad idea, and it (notifying them) seems like a
good idea, if only to make things easier for Devuan porters.



That is an excellent idea.  Would be great if someone got organized 
enough to start a dialog with EVERY upstream dev individually and/or 
collectively.  Unfortunately, that would be a mammoth task requiring 
more time than most people could find.  I've done work like that on 
various issues and know from experience, it is a full time job.




I don't see that putting my (insignificant) name on a list of whiners 
as a productive action.  It would just get laughed at and stomped on 
like ants by Paul Bunyan.



It's less about _who_ is on the list, and more about _how many_ names
are listed.

It's hard to deny there is a problem in the face of a veritable tsunami
of proof.



That depends on your definition of a 'veritable tsunami of proof'.   I 
have no idea what numbers might catch their attention but I imagine it 
would have to be several hundred thousand at a minimum including a long 
list of big names/enterprises.  That would be another excellent project 
for someone reading this to take on.  Steve's list could just be the 
first step.


Why not follow your own tactical advice and DO something.  As for me . . 
. I've already got my hands full.   From the time I get up in the 
morning till lights out past midnight 7 days a week, I am working on 
something to advance devuan in one way or another.


golinux


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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Christopher Clements]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:55:57AM -0500, goli...@dyne.org wrote:

But what is the point?  Our freedoms are being eroded on all fronts -
we are drowning in a tsunami of reversal of  choice dictated by those
in power be they Debian or corporations or government.
Rather than piss in the wind...


To make this a metaphor, what about pissing _upwind_?
I've seen some others suggest notifying upstream developers that making
systemd mandatory is a bad idea, and it (notifying them) seems like a
good idea, if only to make things easier for Devuan porters.

I don't see that putting my (insignificant) name on a 
list of whiners as a productive action.  It would just get laughed at 
and stomped on like ants by Paul Bunyan.


My name carries _no_ weight.
I'd make a joke about it carrying a negative amount of weight, but I
haven't made any enemies (that I know of).

The thing is, if we made a list with _every_ name on it, the list would
probably be pretty long.

It's less about _who_ is on the list, and more about _how many_ names
are listed.

It's hard to deny there is a problem in the face of a veritable tsunami
of proof.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Remember the "Halloween Documents"?

Microsoft said, and I quote:

"Note, however, that Compaq and Dell merely have to credibly threaten
Linux adoption in order to push for lower OEM OS pricing."


Linux distributions are the same way when it comes to users.

If a huge chunk of your user base threatened to switch, you'd think
twice about doing whatever it is that they don't like.

Debian knows that some people do not approve of systemd being mandatory,
but they might not now exactly _how many_ people disapprove.

Strength in numbers is the only way to effect (and resist) change.

Even if we don't change their minds, we would sow unrest, prompt some
users to look up what exactly systemd is, and ask questions.

Debian is becoming lost to us, but we don't have to let go of the
"universal operating system" and the principles upon which it was
created quietly.

We lost the battle (Debian Jessie uses systemd), but there is still a
war going on (systemd doesn't have 100% adoption yet).

I'm not saying we all go on the "offensive", but rather, we shouldn't
just silently watch as our beloved distribution rots from the inside!

If we don't do _something_, then who says the cancer will stop spreading
once it consumes Debian?  Do you really want to manage seperate (and
eventually fundamentally different) forks of every single piece of
GNU software?  (I'd rather not mess with _any_ GNU software, as the
Great Old Ones are likely waiting within the ungodly labyrinths that
they call "properly formatted code"!)

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[golinux]

Steve Litt  wrote:


Can somebody please make a list, that we can put our names on, of
people who left Debian because of systemd? And put the name Steve Litt
on it please.




Can those wanting to be added to Steve's list please contact him 
directly at the above address rather than on this list.  We really don't 
need all those emails clogging the archives.  Thanks.


golinux


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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[KNL]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 21:37:45 -0400
Steve Litt  wrote:

> Can somebody please make a list, that we can put our names on, of
> people who left Debian because of systemd? And put the name Steve Litt
> on it please.

Me too!

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Christopher Clements]

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 09:37:45PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:

Can somebody please make a list, that we can put our names on, of
people who left Debian because of systemd? And put the name Steve Litt
on it please.


Mine too.
(Although my name carries no weight at all apart from quantity.)

I left Debian bcause systemd (logind) made my laptop unusable (the
screen would shut off every 10 seconds even though the "lid switch"
was fully functional).

The scary "political" stuff came later.

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Gregory Nowak]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 01:19:18PM -0400, Rob Owens wrote:
> You can include me in your list if you want.  But I think for a Debian user
> who is currently questioning the need for systemd, knowing his alternatives
> is much more useful than knowing that I (some guy they don't know) stopped
> using Debian.

Sure, but if they know someone who they don't know stopped using
debian, then that will make them wonder what alternatives are out
there, and hopefully they'll find devuan. Not as straight forward as
saying there are alternatives, but the implication is there.

Greg


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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 16:57:15 +
KatolaZ  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 05:44:17PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> 
> [cut]
> 
> > 
> >   This sounds like telling minorities to stop whining for being
> > discriminated against because they are ... well, a minority, and
> > the place is run by the majority.  You are basically saying that
> > only majorities might feel entitled to protest, because only
> > majorities can make a difference. This is plain false.  
> 
> Nope. This sound like telling minorities to stay on their track and
> forget the majority of savvies and wise, if they (us, the minority)
> think they are on the right track. Protesting against majorities at
> their home usually doesn't bring anything useful to a minority.

I disagree with the word "usually" and would change it to "often", and
then rephrase the sentence as:

Protesting against majorities at their home sometimes brings useful
things to a minority, and if such protests go on often enough and long
enough, they usually do.

More to the point, the list is in no way an alternative to working on
the Devuan project, or any other pro-choice activity. It's just one
more pebble in the box: 30 seconds to email Steve Litt and ask to be
placed on the list. If it doesn't accomplish anything, that's 30
seconds out of your life. If it results in changes, well, you were a
pioneer patriot.

Once upon a time I was a minor league antiwar (Vietnam) activist. I
attended this 400 person meeting where they were arguing back and forth
about what to do and how to do it. I raised my hand, said I was going
to hang antiwar signs in storefronts up and down Devon avenue, and I
needed one or two people to help me. One girl volunteered, we left,
made signs, and by the end of the day, 20% of the stores on Devon
between Sheridan and Clark had signs saying "Stop the war now!"

Did she and I stop the war? Of course not. But for the next few days,
people in the Rogers Park neighborhood saw those signs and figured
"hey, maybe it's not just dirty hippies that don't like the war. And
I'd like to think that even the 80% of the store owners we didn't
convince perhaps had their thinking changed a little bit, and maybe
influenced others (or stopped influencing them in a pro-war stance). As
far as the other 398 people, they did whatever they ended up doing, not
at all inconvenienced by the loss of two people.

Most philosophical/ideological wars, which always have material
consequences, are fought on many fronts in many ways. In my opinion
this multifront attack eventually succeeds.

But anyway, it's low hanging fruit: It costs 30 seconds to do it, and
we already have 10 people on the list.

SteveT

Steve Litt
March 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Why Bother?
http://www.troubleshooters.com/twb
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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[golinux]

On 2017-03-15 11:21, Hendrik Boom wrote:

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:55:57AM -0500, goli...@dyne.org wrote:

On 2017-03-14 20:37, Steve Litt wrote:

>
>. . . and they still have the power to take our init systems away from us
>. . .

How exactly will they do that?  An executive order?


By mutating all the essential software to depend on systemd.
[w]e cou[l]d resist, but desystemd-ing software takes effort, both to 
do it

and to maintain the results.  If there are too many systemd-izers,
we will not be able to keep up.

-- hendrik



Participation is essential.  Time for us to collectively roll up our 
sleeves and move from being 'users' to being 'systemd decontaminators' 
and/or finding ways to support those who are doing the work in 
meaningful ways other than jawing on dng.


golinux
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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Hendrik Boom]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 04:57:15PM +, KatolaZ wrote:
> 
> debian-user is a mailing list of debian users. I am not a debian user
> any more, and I was not on that list even when I was a Debian user
> (and it was for about 15 years). So why on Earth should I now go there
> and shout loud at their faces that I think they got it all wrong?
> Again, to what avail?

Shouting at Debian-user is not likely to be useful.  What is important 
is making sure the upstream developers, from which Debian and 
nonDebian alike get their software, be aware that they will lose 
many if they irrevocably systemd-ize their software.  Make it plain 
that, at the very least, their users should be able to turn systemd 
dependency off.

I'm not sure what would be the proper forum for this.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Rob Owens]

I left Debian for Funtoo and Devuan.  The reason was systemd.  Debian paid
lip service to the alternate init systems, but in reality systemd was
slowly but surely becoming required.  I left because it was clear they were
going in a different direction than I wanted to follow.

You can include me in your list if you want.  But I think for a Debian user
who is currently questioning the need for systemd, knowing his alternatives
is much more useful than knowing that I (some guy they don't know) stopped
using Debian.

-Rob

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 9:37 PM, Steve Litt 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> There's yet another systemd thread on Debian-User, started by a guy who
> wrote an intelligent question about why there's no choice of init at
> install time:
>
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/03/msg00472.html
>
> After a little back and forth, a guy who claims to have used Linux for
> 20 years without knowing there's more than one init system, and because
> of his personal anecdote he thinks there shouldn't be a choice and says
> "Please end this Diskussion and get on with important things."
>
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/03/msg00514.html
>
> A few posts later, a guy basically says "put up or shut up" to the
> proposition that the reason there's so little request for sans-systemd
> in Debian is because those who don't like systemd moved on:
>
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/03/msg00540.html
>
> Can somebody please make a list, that we can put our names on, of
> people who left Debian because of systemd? And put the name Steve Litt
> on it please.
>
> We have our quiet sans-systemd corners, and right now they're
> comfortable, but remember that the Freedesktop/Redhat/SystemdCabal
> consortium has the goal of eliminating systemd as a choice, and they
> still have the power to take our init systems away from us, as a
> practical matter, so we still need to tell the truth to bullshit like
> that on the Debian-User list right now. Obviously there's a technical
> component to software choice, but forget at your peril that there's
> also a political component.
>
> Thanks,
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> March 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Why Bother?
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/twb
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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 05:44:17PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote:

[cut]

> 
>   This sounds like telling minorities to stop whining for being
> discriminated against because they are ... well, a minority, and the place
> is run by the majority.  You are basically saying that only majorities might
> feel entitled to protest, because only majorities can make a difference.
> This is plain false.

Nope. This sound like telling minorities to stay on their track and
forget the majority of savvies and wise, if they (us, the minority)
think they are on the right track. Protesting against majorities at
their home usually doesn't bring anything useful to a minority.

This intellectual energy can be used in much more productive ways
helping Devuan rather than starting yet another endless flame in
debian-user, IMHO.

Being part of a minority has never bothered me. Rather the opposite.

> 
> «Why should we make a point about freedom of choice in a camp which has 
> totally
> forgotten what freedom of choice is»
> 
> Exactly for that reason, because we stand for freedom of choice, they used to
> and they have now have abandoned that noble cause to side with the majority
> (of wrongdoers).
> 

...so since we think we are right and we stand for freedom, we should
feel entitled to knock at their door, enter their living room, put our
muddy boots on their table, and tell them "So guys, you've screwed it
up completely, you know..."?!?

debian-user is a mailing list of debian users. I am not a debian user
any more, and I was not on that list even when I was a Debian user
(and it was for about 15 years). So why on Earth should I now go there
and shout loud at their faces that I think they got it all wrong?
Again, to what avail?

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Miles Fidelman]

On 3/15/17 9:20 AM, Andrew McGlashan wrote:



On 16/03/17 02:55, goli...@dyne.org wrote:

. . .  but remember that the Freedesktop/Redhat/SystemdCabal
consortium has the goal of eliminating systemd as a choice . . .


Er . . . not quite what you intended to say, I think.

Yes, well, I read that as -- you have no choice, the world is using
systemd -- like it or lump it, you have to have it as nothing else will
work



You know, I kind of wonder about that.  Are developers actually 
migrating to systemd, or do most things come with standard init-scripts 
- then relying on systemd's ability to utilize init scripts and/or 
relying on packagers to add systemd scripts?


I would guess that it also has to do with tooling & libraries.

Our systems are pretty stable, and a lot of our stuff has been installed 
from the tarball, not the packages - so I don't have a current sense of 
the world.


Anybody have a better sense of where things are going.

Miles Fidelman

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Alessandro Selli]

Il giorno Wed, 15 Mar 2017 12:26:22 +
KatolaZ  ha scritto:

> On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 09:37:45PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> [cut]
> 
> > 
> > Can somebody please make a list, that we can put our names on, of
> > people who left Debian because of systemd? And put the name Steve Litt
> > on it please.
> > 
> 
> You could definitely do that, but to what avail, if I may ask? Why
> should we waste time in letting debian-user know that there is a small
> bunch of people who thinks differently from the mass there? Why should
> we make a point about freedom of choice in a camp which has totally
> forgotten what freedom of choice is, and has embraced the cause of
> total domination? Again, to what avail?

  This sounds like telling minorities to stop whining for being
discriminated against because they are ... well, a minority, and the place
is run by the majority.  You are basically saying that only majorities might
feel entitled to protest, because only majorities can make a difference.
This is plain false.

«Why should we make a point about freedom of choice in a camp which has totally
forgotten what freedom of choice is»

Exactly for that reason, because we stand for freedom of choice, they used to
and they have now have abandoned that noble cause to side with the majority
(of wrongdoers).



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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Andrew McGlashan]

On 16/03/17 02:55, goli...@dyne.org wrote:
>> . . .  but remember that the Freedesktop/Redhat/SystemdCabal
>> consortium has the goal of eliminating systemd as a choice . . .
>>
> 
> Er . . . not quite what you intended to say, I think.

Yes, well, I read that as -- you have no choice, the world is using
systemd -- like it or lump it, you have to have it as nothing else will
work

And certainly the systemd push to include all sorts of other stuff,
tentacles evverywhere, well, we can see it, but too many others are
blinded to the problem :(

Any such list of people leaving Debian for Devuan is pointless, it won't
serve much if any benefit, anywhere.   Other than to say, we do not
stand with Debian on this, we stand apart, very much apart.

A.
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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Hendrik Boom]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:55:57AM -0500, goli...@dyne.org wrote:
> On 2017-03-14 20:37, Steve Litt wrote:
> >
> >Can somebody please make a list, that we can put our names on, of
> >people who left Debian because of systemd? And put the name Steve Litt
> >on it please.
> >
> 
> There are plenty of sites where YOU could start a MEEETOOO petition to prove
> your point.   But what is the point?  Our freedoms are being eroded on all
> fronts - we are drowning in a tsunami of reversal of choice dictated by
> those in power be they Debian or corporations or government.  Rather than
> piss in the wind, my response is to do as much as I can to resist in a
> meaningful way by supporting alternatives.  I don't see that putting my
> (insignificant) name on a list of whiners as a productive action.  It would
> just get laughed at and stomped on like ants by Paul Bunyan.
> 
> >
> >. . .  but remember that the Freedesktop/Redhat/SystemdCabal
> >consortium has the goal of eliminating systemd as a choice . . .
> >
> 
> Er . . . not quite what you intended to say, I think.
> 
> >
> >. . . and they still have the power to take our init systems away from us
> >. . .
> >
> 
> How exactly will they do that?  An executive order?

By mutating all the essential software to depend on systemd.
e coud resist, but desystemd-ing software takes effort, both to do it 
and to maintain the results.  If there are too many systemd-izers, 
we will not be able to keep up.

-- hendrik
  
> 
> golinux
> 
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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[golinux]

On 2017-03-14 20:37, Steve Litt wrote:


Can somebody please make a list, that we can put our names on, of
people who left Debian because of systemd? And put the name Steve Litt
on it please.



There are plenty of sites where YOU could start a MEEETOOO petition to 
prove your point.   But what is the point?  Our freedoms are being 
eroded on all fronts - we are drowning in a tsunami of reversal of 
choice dictated by those in power be they Debian or corporations or 
government.  Rather than piss in the wind, my response is to do as much 
as I can to resist in a meaningful way by supporting alternatives.  I 
don't see that putting my (insignificant) name on a list of whiners as a 
productive action.  It would just get laughed at and stomped on like 
ants by Paul Bunyan.




. . .  but remember that the Freedesktop/Redhat/SystemdCabal
consortium has the goal of eliminating systemd as a choice . . .



Er . . . not quite what you intended to say, I think.



. . . and they still have the power to take our init systems away from 
us . . .




How exactly will they do that?  An executive order?

golinux

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[mdn]

Hello,
Another way to speak up would be on Gnu social.
Something that could be useful if that someone takes the time to respond
to some questions or to join a conversation on GNU social.

See for example here:
https://community.highlandarrow.com/notice/737628

Here's a list of instance for anyone interested
http://www.fediverse.org/

Good day to all.

Le 15/03/2017 02:37, Steve Litt a écrit :
> Hi all,
> 
> There's yet another systemd thread on Debian-User, started by a guy who
> wrote an intelligent question about why there's no choice of init at
> install time:
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/03/msg00472.html
> 
> After a little back and forth, a guy who claims to have used Linux for
> 20 years without knowing there's more than one init system, and because
> of his personal anecdote he thinks there shouldn't be a choice and says
> "Please end this Diskussion and get on with important things."
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/03/msg00514.html
> 
> A few posts later, a guy basically says "put up or shut up" to the
> proposition that the reason there's so little request for sans-systemd
> in Debian is because those who don't like systemd moved on:
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/03/msg00540.html
> 
> Can somebody please make a list, that we can put our names on, of
> people who left Debian because of systemd? And put the name Steve Litt
> on it please.
> 
> We have our quiet sans-systemd corners, and right now they're
> comfortable, but remember that the Freedesktop/Redhat/SystemdCabal
> consortium has the goal of eliminating systemd as a choice, and they
> still have the power to take our init systems away from us, as a
> practical matter, so we still need to tell the truth to bullshit like
> that on the Debian-User list right now. Obviously there's a technical
> component to software choice, but forget at your peril that there's
> also a political component.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt
> March 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Why Bother?
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/twb
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> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
> 



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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Patrick Meade]

On 03/14/2017 08:37 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

We have our quiet sans-systemd corners, and right now they're
comfortable, but remember that the Freedesktop/Redhat/SystemdCabal
consortium has the goal of eliminating systemd as a choice, and they
still have the power to take our init systems away from us, as a
practical matter, so we still need to tell the truth to bullshit like
that on the Debian-User list right now. Obviously there's a technical
component to software choice, but forget at your peril that there's
also a political component.


To paraphase: The more Debian tightens its grip on systemd, the more 
users will slip through their fingers.


Those users just need to know where to go. A simple informative post (a 
sign post) to the thread will accomplish that.



"Devuan (https://devuan.org/) is a fork of Debian that removes hard 
dependencies on init systems, ensuring the user is always free to choose 
the one they want. If this sounds like what you want, please stop by and 
introduce yourself."



We'll be happy to take the init freedom refugees, and Debian will be 
glad to be rid of the anti-systemd whiners they don't want to serve. 
It's always nice when things work out win-win like this.


Patrick
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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 09:37:45PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:

[cut]

> 
> Can somebody please make a list, that we can put our names on, of
> people who left Debian because of systemd? And put the name Steve Litt
> on it please.
> 

You could definitely do that, but to what avail, if I may ask? Why
should we waste time in letting debian-user know that there is a small
bunch of people who thinks differently from the mass there? Why should
we make a point about freedom of choice in a camp which has totally
forgotten what freedom of choice is, and has embraced the cause of
total domination? Again, to what avail?

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Ismael L. Donis Garcia]

- Original Message - 
From: "Joachim Fahrner" <j...@fahrner.name>

To: <dng@lists.dyne.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 1:57 AM
Subject: Re: [DNG] We need to speak up



Am 2017-03-15 02:37, schrieb Steve Litt:


Can somebody please make a list, that we can put our names on, of
people who left Debian because of systemd? And put the name Steve Litt
on it please.


Mee too.


Mee too.

Best Regards

| ISMAEL |
 


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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Clarke Sideroad]

You can add Marcus Coles to the list, but this really is a waste of time.

If the list get several thousand names, it won't be enough to convince 
the loud mouth indoctrinated sheep that have taken charge of the barn 
yard and will be thought about only long enough to twist into a negative.


"What do you mean 3,500 signatures? There are scrillions of happy 
systemd Debian uses you don't see complaining.  Let that few start their 
own distro."


The distribution that was Debian with the diversity and freedom of 
choice is long dead, it was murdered from within. It is time to move 
along rather than yelling at a corpse.


Long live Devuan!

Clarke


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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Adam Borowski]

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 09:37:45PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> There's yet another systemd thread on Debian-User
^^^

Just ignore.  The debian-user list is notorious for its _negative_
signal-to-noise ratio.  It's not just system matters -- you're better off
picking a course of way at random than following debian-user's advice.

I'm afraid that DNG doesn't have a stellar quality either, but it's still
massively better than that.

I guess that, at this point, an unified installer would be the best idea.

-- 
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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Jaromil]

The feeling is intense, but I am afraid a petition of sorts is not
going to help. The systemd hooligans are manipulative bullies in the
best case and will just troll your names on the board while sitting up
on the walls of the stronghold.

I recommend that beyond the act of putting up a list, you show care
and understanding for the person being bullied and show all the Debian
developer community that this is the camp where the reasonable people
ended up sitting, far away from the a citadel which is by now full of
scheisse.

ciao

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Joachim Fahrner]

Am 2017-03-15 02:37, schrieb Steve Litt:


Can somebody please make a list, that we can put our names on, of
people who left Debian because of systemd? And put the name Steve Litt
on it please.


Mee too.
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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Alessandro Selli]

Il 15/03/2017 07:21, Miles Fidelman ha scritto:
> On 3/14/17 9:05 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>
>>
>> On 03/15/2017 12:00 AM, メット wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2017年3月15日 12:40:48 JST, Don Wright  wrote:
 Steve Litt wrote:
> Can somebody please make a list, that we can put our names on, of
> people who left Debian because of systemd? And put the name Steve
> Litt
> on it please.
 Add mine too. I was a Debian supporter and pusher through my local
 LUG,
 showing Linux (mostly Debian-based) and handing out CDs at the
 occasional trade show, and also participating a bit on the debian-boot
 (installer development) maillist. The increasing arrogance within the
 project, demonstrated strongly by the systemd debacle, is what made me
 a
 former Debian user.
 Don Wright
 -- 
 Sponsored by Berserker Express. At BE, we bring things to Goodlife.
>>>
>>> Add mine as well
>>>
>>>
>> And my axe!
>>
>> ... er... :)
>>
>> me too!
>>
> Me too.

I'm on the boat as well.



-- 
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Tel. 3701355486
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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Miles Fidelman]

On 3/14/17 9:05 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:



On 03/15/2017 12:00 AM, メット wrote:


On 2017年3月15日 12:40:48 JST, Don Wright  wrote:

Steve Litt wrote:

Can somebody please make a list, that we can put our names on, of
people who left Debian because of systemd? And put the name Steve Litt
on it please.

Add mine too. I was a Debian supporter and pusher through my local LUG,
showing Linux (mostly Debian-based) and handing out CDs at the
occasional trade show, and also participating a bit on the debian-boot
(installer development) maillist. The increasing arrogance within the
project, demonstrated strongly by the systemd debacle, is what made me
a
former Debian user.
Don Wright
--
Sponsored by Berserker Express. At BE, we bring things to Goodlife.


Add mine as well



And my axe!

... er... :)

me too!


Me too.

--
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In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Dan Purgert]

On 03/15/2017 12:00 AM, メット wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2017年3月15日 12:40:48 JST, Don Wright  wrote:
>> Steve Litt wrote:
>>> Can somebody please make a list, that we can put our names on, of
>>> people who left Debian because of systemd? And put the name Steve Litt
>>> on it please.
> 
>> Add mine too. I was a Debian supporter and pusher through my local LUG,
>> showing Linux (mostly Debian-based) and handing out CDs at the
>> occasional trade show, and also participating a bit on the debian-boot
>> (installer development) maillist. The increasing arrogance within the
>> project, demonstrated strongly by the systemd debacle, is what made me
>> a
>> former Debian user.
> 
>> Don Wright
> 
>> --
>> Sponsored by Berserker Express. At BE, we bring things to Goodlife.
> 
> 
> Add mine as well
> 
> 

And my axe!

... er... :)

me too!



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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[メット]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512



On 2017年3月15日 12:40:48 JST, Don Wright  wrote:
>Steve Litt wrote:
>>Can somebody please make a list, that we can put our names on, of
>>people who left Debian because of systemd? And put the name Steve Litt
>>on it please.
>
>Add mine too. I was a Debian supporter and pusher through my local LUG,
>showing Linux (mostly Debian-based) and handing out CDs at the
>occasional trade show, and also participating a bit on the debian-boot
>(installer development) maillist. The increasing arrogance within the
>project, demonstrated strongly by the systemd debacle, is what made me
>a
>former Debian user.
>
>Don Wright
>
>--
>Sponsored by Berserker Express. At BE, we bring things to Goodlife.
>
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Add mine as well

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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Don Wright]

Steve Litt wrote:
>Can somebody please make a list, that we can put our names on, of
>people who left Debian because of systemd? And put the name Steve Litt
>on it please.

Add mine too. I was a Debian supporter and pusher through my local LUG,
showing Linux (mostly Debian-based) and handing out CDs at the
occasional trade show, and also participating a bit on the debian-boot
(installer development) maillist. The increasing arrogance within the
project, demonstrated strongly by the systemd debacle, is what made me a
former Debian user.

Don Wright

-- 
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Re: [DNG] We need to speak up

[Gregory Nowak]

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 09:37:45PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> Can somebody please make a list, that we can put our names on, of
> people who left Debian because of systemd? And put the name Steve Litt
> on it please.

You can add Gregory Nowak to that too. I was for the most part quite
happy on debian until jessie came along. I think that's true for most
if not all of us here.

Greg


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[DNG] We need to speak up

[Steve Litt]

Hi all,

There's yet another systemd thread on Debian-User, started by a guy who
wrote an intelligent question about why there's no choice of init at
install time:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/03/msg00472.html

After a little back and forth, a guy who claims to have used Linux for
20 years without knowing there's more than one init system, and because
of his personal anecdote he thinks there shouldn't be a choice and says
"Please end this Diskussion and get on with important things."

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/03/msg00514.html

A few posts later, a guy basically says "put up or shut up" to the
proposition that the reason there's so little request for sans-systemd
in Debian is because those who don't like systemd moved on:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/03/msg00540.html

Can somebody please make a list, that we can put our names on, of
people who left Debian because of systemd? And put the name Steve Litt
on it please.

We have our quiet sans-systemd corners, and right now they're
comfortable, but remember that the Freedesktop/Redhat/SystemdCabal
consortium has the goal of eliminating systemd as a choice, and they
still have the power to take our init systems away from us, as a
practical matter, so we still need to tell the truth to bullshit like
that on the Debian-User list right now. Obviously there's a technical
component to software choice, but forget at your peril that there's
also a political component.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt
March 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Why Bother?
http://www.troubleshooters.com/twb
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