Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 13:04:04 +0100 Florian Zieboll wrote: > (I hope no one expected this thread to go back on the spool;) Oh, and I hope that you, Alessandro, don't feel addressed personally. If so: be assured of my deepest regret^^ Florian pgp0R9igWr4xj.pgp Description:

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 00:40:47 +0100 Alessandro Selli wrote: > The ignorant peasant regularly claims the words of the savant to be > "obscure geekery". There's this cartoon (1), where an economic analyst stands in the grainfield and tells the farmer to concentrate

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com): > The ignorant peasant regularly claims the words of the savant to be > "obscure geekery". That's me, ignorant peasant and dumb ox. You may have heard the saying: You can always tell a Scandinavian, but you can't tell him much. Anyway, I

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On 16/03/2018 at 00:14, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Nelson H. F. Beebe (be...@math.utah.edu): > >> I must rebut those statements. > > Edge-case obsess, much? ;-> > I'm delighted to have inspired you have disgorged this huge display of > obscure geekery, The ignorant peasant regularly claims

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

> By the way, when will anyone point out that  printer-driver-hpcups > might be enough for printing to non-ps HP printers and it doesn't need > d-bus? Being the original poster, I can confirm that CUPS+printer-driver-hpcups worked for the printer in hand via JetDirect, without d-bus. I was

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Hi Didier, Didier Kryn writes: > Le 16/03/2018 à 09:19, Olaf Meeuwissen a écrit: >>> This is getting off the topic in the subject line, [...] >> Indeed;-) >> >>> In PostScript, I don't readily find any built-in operators that could >>> give a result that differs on every run, so you probably

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Hi, Joel Roth writes: > Cups was sponsored by Apple, [...] Correction, Apple bought CUPS in February 2007 after they adopted it for inclusion in MacOS X in March 2002[1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CUPS#History Hope this helps, -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Le 16/03/2018 à 09:19, Olaf Meeuwissen a écrit : This is getting off the topic in the subject line, [...] Indeed;-) In PostScript, I don't readily find any built-in operators that could give a result that differs on every run, so you probably have to inject suitable arguments for srand from

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Nelson H. F. Bee: ... > For more on PostScript and PDF, see the extensive bibliography at > > http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/postscri.bib Thank you for all the references. > As an example of differences between the two markup languages, look at > the book in entry

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

KatolaZ writes on Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:19:42 +: >> my biggest frustration was not being able of finding a way to >> implement a 2D random walk in postscript that would show a different >> trajectory every time you open it :D (the only problem there is the >> seed). This is getting off the

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 04:59:49PM -0600, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote: > >> ... > >> 'Successor' is not quite the right description, IMO. The key point is > >> that PDF (which, to be sure, was developed later) is bidirectionally > >> equivalent and semantically identical to PostScript. You can

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Quoting Nelson H. F. Beebe (be...@math.utah.edu): > I must rebut those statements. Edge-case obsess, much? ;-> I'm delighted to have inspired you have disgorged this huge display of obscure geekery, albeit it was gloriously irrelevant to the antecedent basic discussion of printers. > In

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Rick Moen writes on Thu, 15 Mar 2018 13:19:50 -0700: >> ... >> 'Successor' is not quite the right description, IMO. The key point is >> that PDF (which, to be sure, was developed later) is bidirectionally >> equivalent and semantically identical to PostScript. You can

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 11:15:08PM +0100, k...@aspodata.se wrote: > Hendrik: > ... > > I dumped Cups, am using lprng. Works fine, except that some > > programs don't know how to use lprng. With libreoffice, I find > > I have to print to a file, and then lpr that file. It won't > > go to the

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Hendrik: ... > I dumped Cups, am using lprng. Works fine, except that some > programs don't know how to use lprng. With libreoffice, I find > I have to print to a file, and then lpr that file. It won't > go to the printer directly > > Of course then I have the abilty to get libreoffice to

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 06:04:48PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 01:31:27PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > > > > > Also, I *thought* all modern printers could understand and render PDF. > > > Was I wrong about that? > > > > Yes, you were. PDF actually _is_ PostScript, just

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 01:31:27PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > > > Also, I *thought* all modern printers could understand and render PDF. > > Was I wrong about that? > > Yes, you were. PDF actually _is_ PostScript, just slightly transformed > and compressed for storage. Yet when I produce a pdf

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 11:01:43AM -1000, Joel Roth wrote: > > If you don't like what they did, the code is available to > you to alter to your liking, or just try lprng. I dumped Cups, am using lprng. Works fine, except that some programs don't know how to use lprng. With libreoffice, I find

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 09:29:08AM +0100, Florian Zieboll wrote: > Am 14. März 2018 08:45:00 MEZ schrieb Arnt Gulbrandsen > : > > > > "Cannot even print"? You make it sound as if printing were a simple task. > > > Printing /is/ a relatively simple task: You create a

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Let's stir the pot a bit . . . All of my printers have been HP. Ignorance is bliss . . . First one was a hand-me-down with a serial connection. Other 2 have been printer/scanners under $75. All three worked pretty much ootb but yes, I'm infected with dbus. I don't print often so the

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): [PS support] > You might pay $1000 instead of $400, or $2000 instead of $1000. One, ISTR you exaggerate. Two, most of the reasons why PS-supporting printers are slightly (not greatly) more expensive than non-PS-capable printers reflect being

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Quoting Florian Zieboll (f.zieb...@web.de): > I have a vague recollection, that there are printers and imagesetters, > that are able to render PDF directly (never was involved in such a > workflow myself) - but this is probably only true for equipment which > does PostScript, of which PDF is a

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 13:57:13 -0400 Steve Litt wrote: > On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 09:08:14 +0100 > Florian Zieboll wrote: > > > Not sure if I am missing something here, but what can go wrong when > > it supports a PostScript version >1? > > You might

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 09:08:14 +0100 Florian Zieboll wrote: > Am 15. März 2018 08:25:33 MEZ schrieb Dave Turner > : > > > which network printers should we buy? > > Not sure if I am missing something here, but what can go wrong when >

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 08:39:17 +0100 Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 15/03/2018 à 07:22, Steve Litt a écrit : > >>     There are alternatives to communicating through dbus. If two > >> processes are necessary, a socket or a pipe can do it. If more > >> structured communication is

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Florian Zieboll writes: I suggest you get some workout and then target the original source of your frustration, constructively - instead of (cowardly) dissing 40+yo script kiddies (yeah, that's me^^). This brings definitely more fun and satisfaction, while providing at least some slight

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Steve Litt writes: As one such back seat driver, allow me to explain. When you've been both programming and using for a long time, you get a feel for the many ways something can be done, ... I stopped here, because I remember what you wrote about Redis recently. Perhaps you don't have a feel

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:11:23 + Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > backseat drivers Hey Captain Murrica (sic!), I suggest you get some workout and then target the original source of your frustration, constructively - instead of (cowardly) dissing 40+yo script kiddies

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Dave Turner writes: which network printers should we buy? Look for something with wired ethernet, postscript and IPP, not under €300, not under 20kg for a BW laser. WLAN is okay but if the printer doesn't have wired ethernet, it's not targeted at the right market niche. HP, Lexmark,

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

taii...@gmx.com" > Is it possible to print and scan on an older hp network printer without > hplip/dbus? It supports LPR/PS but I have never been able to get it to > work properly (ie: with the extra paper trays, duplexer, dpi settings > etc) are there any good guides for this? You use

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 09:08:14AM +0100, Florian Zieboll wrote: > Am 15. März 2018 08:25:33 MEZ schrieb Dave Turner > : > > > which network printers should we buy? > > Not sure if I am missing something here, but what can go wrong when it > supports a

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Am 15. März 2018 08:25:33 MEZ schrieb Dave Turner : > which network printers should we buy? Not sure if I am missing something here, but what can go wrong when it supports a PostScript version >1? -- [message sent mobile]

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Quoting Dave Turner (dave_t_tur...@barradas.free-online.co.uk): > I know of many printers that don't play nicely with linux, I bought > an HP because they do work. If 'work' means with dependency on the mostly-proprietary HPLIP printing software, then I would suggest this is a problem. > For

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Le 15/03/2018 à 07:22, Steve Litt a écrit :     There are alternatives to communicating through dbus. If two processes are necessary, a socket or a pipe can do it. If more structured communication is necessary and you don't need two processes (why would you in this case), other famous

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On 15/03/18 06:44, Rick Moen wrote: Quoting terryc (ter...@woa.com.au): On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 03:25:44 -0400 Menelaos Maglis wrote: I use hplip and yes dbus is installed. I run a very minimal ascii/ceres system and following the trail of things dependent on dbus - well,

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Quoting terryc (ter...@woa.com.au): > On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 03:25:44 -0400 > Menelaos Maglis wrote: > > > > I use hplip and yes dbus is installed. > > > > > I run a very minimal ascii/ceres system and following the trail of > > things dependent on dbus - well, unless

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:32:26 +0100 Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 14/03/2018 à 10:54, KatolaZ a écrit : > > we are losing most of the original simplicity of > > Linux (effectively fucking up the only users who care about Linux), > > just to serve users that will never use Linux on their

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:11:23 + Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Didier Kryn writes: > > Do you remember any of these comics where the driver of a > > car opens the motor to repair, throws away a bunch of parts, and > > then the engine starts again and the guy goes

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:42:28 +0100 Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 14/03/2018 à 11:29, Florian Zieboll a écrit : > > Hallo Didier, > > > > just to avoid confusion: this was not my point, but Menelaos > > Maglis's. I just tried to figure out that the basics of printing > > (like most

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Am 2018-03-15 00:10, schrieb Ozi Traveller: > I have Virtualbox working on freebsd. With USB Support?___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Is it possible to print and scan on an older hp network printer without hplip/dbus? It supports LPR/PS but I have never been able to get it to work properly (ie: with the extra paper trays, duplexer, dpi settings etc) are there any good guides for this?

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 03:25:44 -0400 Menelaos Maglis wrote: > > I use hplip and yes dbus is installed. > > > I run a very minimal ascii/ceres system and following the trail of > things dependent on dbus - well, unless somebody knows better it looks > like we are stuck with

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

I have Virtualbox working on freebsd. On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 7:52 AM, J. Fahrner wrote: > Am 2018-03-14 21:29, schrieb Chillfan: > >> Just as a precursor to this.. I don't consider freebsd an alternative >> to Devuan partly because of freedom related issues since they're

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 09:57:33AM +, KatolaZ wrote: > On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 10:49:21AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: > >     But here, the device is connected through the network; therefore it > > cannot communicate through dbus. Dbus is used between two pieces of software > > running on the

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Am 2018-03-14 21:50, schrieb Arnt Gulbrandsen: chill...@protonmail.com writes: lol @ about the browser taking longer to compile.. I have no doubt you didn't exaggerate this. That'll have been Chrome. A giant. Firefox is not better! The giant is webkit.

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Am 2018-03-14 21:29, schrieb Chillfan: Just as a precursor to this.. I don't consider freebsd an alternative to Devuan partly because of freedom related issues since they're happy to accept binary only drivers there. I have no problem with binary drivers. I am not an ideologist. I like the

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

chill...@protonmail.com writes: lol @ about the browser taking longer to compile.. I have no doubt you didn't exaggerate this. That'll have been Chrome. A giant. It includes several compilers and lots of libraries. The only things I've seen that are comparable are gcc (over a gigabyte of

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Just as a precursor to this.. I don't consider freebsd an alternative to Devuan partly because of freedom related issues since they're happy to accept binary only drivers there. That said there is some simplistic value to freebsd, but they are also using dbus where it's not appropriate. I

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Am 2018-03-14 20:50, schrieb Chillfan: This is one of the best tear downs of dbus I've seen. The thinking seems to be based purely on trends, e.g "You guys are going with dbus, right? OK let's do that." even if it makes no sense for the use case. I'm exactly with you! Last year I tried a

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

J. Fahrner writes: That's also what I do. I have a Brother DCP-7045N connected as network printer with lpd protocol. I can install it with a single ppd file, but then printing is VERY SLOW. Printing is fast with the Brother supplied "cupswrapper" driver, but this is only available as 32bit

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Am 2018-03-14 13:05, schrieb Simon Hobson: FWIW, while it generally costs more, I've always (both for work and home) tried to stick to Postscript [compatible] printers. That's also what I do. I have a Brother DCP-7045N connected as network printer with lpd protocol. I can install it with a

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

> It's $%@#$!@#$!@# annoying when people come afterwards and explain how simple a task is, and clearly have no idea about the complexities and problems. > Maybe d-bus is a poor fit for hplip. I don't know and I suspect you don't either. We do. Although the word "simple" is not the main point, I

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > FWIW, other printers are handled using some other IPC protocol. Same > information sent back and forth, but a different socket and protocol. My > Brother MFC8880 uses IPP and... I forget the name of the other protocol. FWIW, while it

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 11:11:23AM +, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: [cut] > > Some things not mentioned today: Problems because rendering whole pages to > bitmaps on the client needs so much RAM that the UI grows unresponsive, > other problems if the client renders the pages in sequence to save

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Quoting Menelaos Maglis (mmag...@metacom.gr): > So I am left with below choices: > > * Accept no printing > * Accept HPLIP+D-Bus if possible > * Fork and change HPLIP or develop something new to do the job, if I have the > abilities/motivation. > > At least this is an option in free software

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Didier Kryn writes: Do you remember any of these comics where the driver of a car opens the motor to repair, throws away a bunch of parts, and then the engine starts again and the guy goes away with the car? Here we are with Linux. The BIG piece to remove was systemd, but there are quite

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Le 14/03/2018 à 11:29, Florian Zieboll a écrit : Hallo Didier, just to avoid confusion: this was not my point, but Menelaos Maglis's. I just tried to figure out that the basics of printing (like most things in computong) are a quite simple thing: pushing ones and zeroes. Besides that: Of

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Menelaos Maglis writes: Why should an application need a system bus to pass messages between its own components? CUPS is not using D-Bus and is able to print to other printers; only HPLIP uses D-bus, so far as I am aware. Why not keep using the same method/interfaces that are proven for

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Le 14/03/2018 à 10:54, KatolaZ a écrit : we are losing most of the original simplicity of Linux (effectively fucking up the only users who care about Linux), just to serve users that will never use Linux on their desktops     Very well said! ___

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Am 14. März 2018 10:49:21 MEZ schrieb Didier Kryn : > >     Dear Florian, I agree with you that it is nice to enable the > software to ask the devices what their properties are, by some > protocol. Hallo Didier, just to avoid confusion: this was not my point, but Menelaos

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Am Mittwoch, 14. März 2018 schrieb Menelaos Maglis: > > Can't ask users about such > tradeoffs, they will be annoyed and won't be able to answer. These days you > can ask the printer via d-bus. The printer knows more about itself than its > users know about it. > > D-Bus is used for communication

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

kato...@freaknet.org writes: yeah, namely. Why on Earth do we need dbus to send a print job over the network via lpd or http? The real answer is "we don't". The effective one is "the developers of hplip don't give a toss". Yet another answer is: The developers don't see another way that's both

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 10:49:21AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: [cut] > >     Dear Florian, I agree with you that it is nice to enable the software to > ask the devices what their properties are, by some protocol. This is nice > for the dummy/lazzy user we are all up to some point. > >     But

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 05:45:54AM -0400, Menelaos Maglis wrote: > > Can't ask users about such > tradeoffs, they will be annoyed and won't be able to answer. These days you > can ask the printer via d-bus. The printer knows more about itself than its > users know about it. > > D-Bus is used for

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Le 14/03/2018 à 09:44, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit : Didier Kryn writes:     You're certainly right: it isn't simple. But it's essential, isn't it?. Graphics printing reached the personnal computer probably with the first McIntosh, in 1982. Not sure it's more feature-rich today than 10 years

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

> Can't ask users about such tradeoffs, they will be annoyed and won't be able to answer. These days you can ask the printer via d-bus. The printer knows more about itself than its users know about it. D-Bus is used for communication between processes. So the configuration and operation of a

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Didier Kryn writes: You're certainly right: it isn't simple. But it's essential, isn't it?. Graphics printing reached the personnal computer probably with the first McIntosh, in 1982. Not sure it's more feature-rich today than 10 years ago, when it wasn't depending on dbus. I wrote a

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

> > "Cannot even print"? You make it sound as if printing were a simple task. > Printing /is/ a relatively simple task: You create a bitmap from your > document (or four im case of color printing) and send it to the printer. Many > printers (like my Oki B430dn) even accept ftp upload of

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Am 14. März 2018 09:29:08 MEZ schrieb Florian Zieboll : > > Printing /is/ a relatively simple task: You create a bitmap from your > document (or four im case of color printing) and send it to the > printer. Many printers (like my Oki B430dn) even accept ftp upload of > correctly

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Le 14/03/2018 à 08:45, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit : "Cannot even print"? You make it sound as if printing were a simple task.     You're certainly right: it isn't simple. But it's essential, isn't it?. Graphics printing reached the personnal computer probably with the first McIntosh, in 1982.

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Am 14. März 2018 08:45:00 MEZ schrieb Arnt Gulbrandsen : > > "Cannot even print"? You make it sound as if printing were a simple task. Printing /is/ a relatively simple task: You create a bitmap from your document (or four im case of color printing) and send it to

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

> I use hplip and yes dbus is installed. > I run a very minimal ascii/ceres system and following the trail of things dependent on dbus - well, unless somebody knows better it looks like we are stuck with it. I realize that unfortunately one cannot even print without hplip/dbus these days... >

Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

On 13/03/18 20:09, Menelaos Maglis wrote: Hi, I tried to print from a D-Bus free system to a HP DeskJet, WiFi connected, printer. CUPS is installed but complained about missing back-end. /var/log/cups/error.log: Stopping job because the scheduler could not execute the backend. File

[DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

Hi, I tried to print from a D-Bus free system to a HP DeskJet, WiFi connected, printer. CUPS is installed but complained about missing back-end. /var/log/cups/error.log: Stopping job because the scheduler could not execute the backend. File \"/usr/lib/cups/backend/hp\" not available: No such