Re: [DNG] dbus-update-activation-environment: systemd --user not found, ignoring --systemd argument

[Rick Moen]

Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org):

> or, just use debfoster :P

Words of wisdom.  ;->

Excerpts follow from the package-operations notes for the team managing
www.svlug.org for Silicon Valley Linux User Group.  (A long-ago nitwit
LUG vice-president chose Ubuntu Server for the system, and we've been
stuck with it since.)


3.  Occasionally check for unnecessary packages (as the root user):

apt-get autoremove  #finds unneeded dependencies
deborphan   #finds unneeded libs:  Consider running
# "apt-get --purge remove $(deborphan)"
debfoster

(WARNING:  dhcp3-client, dhcp3-common, and nsd* are essential packages
regardless of what the above may claim.)  Suggestion:  Run all three
in sequence repeatedly until they cease to find new unwanted packages.

The last of these tools (debfoster) is a very sophisticated and useful checker.
_However_, you must pay close attention when using it, or you might remove
something vital to the system.

Also useful along those lines:

dpkg --purge [packagename]

...will remove vestigial package conffile and similar directories left
over after you've removed the packages associated with them.  You can
spot such leftovers by doing 'dpkg -l | more' and spotting any line
beginning with 'rc' in the leftmost column.  That indicates run
control (init) and similar files left over from a removed package.

This will remove all vestigial 'rc' files for removed packages:

   dpkg -l | grep ^rc | awk {'print $2'} | xargs dpkg --purge

(If you get a diagnostic about dpkg that starts out 'dpkg: --purge needs
at least one package name argument', that means there were no vestigial
'rc' packages.)

Once you're done with that cleanup, read down the list of installed
packages, and test whether any are unneeded and can be removed.

   dpkg -l | less  # You'll want a wide window for this.

Try 'apt-get remove [packagename]' for packages that seem unwanted:
If dependencies make it a bad idea, apt-get will make that obvious and
ask your confirmation.  E.g., package 'plymouth' is a graphical bootup
utility that's pointless on a headless server, but critical system
packages depend on it.  [Insert rude comment about Ubuntu mentality,
here.]

Examples of packages removed:
gcc-4.2-base
python2.4-minimal
python2.5-minimal

Last, this will purge the package cache (saving us significant disk),
i.e., delete everything but the lock file from /var/cache/apt/archives/
and /var/cache/apt/archives/partial/.  Run the command when you're done
for the day with package operations:

apt-get clean



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Re: [DNG] dbus-update-activation-environment: systemd --user not found, ignoring --systemd argument

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 09:33:38AM -0800, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):
> 
> > Urban, back in 2013 I faced a sort of mini-systemd situation: I kicked
> > every KDE executable and library off my system, on the theory that if
> > any KDE code got run, it could do heaven knows what to my system,
> > because KDE is a hairball of monolithic entanglement. I was lucky for
> > KDE's self-imposed naming scheme that taught me to be careful of
> > anything starting with k. Still, it would be very nice to run a program
> > whose output is a list of KDE components remaining on the computer, so
> > if I find one, I can de-install its package and/or delete its files.
> 
> STEP 1:  Type 'apt-get install [foo]'  Command will wait for
> your confirmation if there are dependencies.
> 
> STEP 2:  Review those dependencies to ensure they are not excessive or
> unreasonable.
> 
> STEP 3:  If dependencies are excessive or unreasonable, type 'n'.  
> Otherwise, type 'y'.
> 
> 
> Oh, and spend some time determining what you deem unreasonable.
> 

or, just use debfoster :P

HND

KatolaZ


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Re: [DNG] dbus-update-activation-environment: systemd --user not found, ignoring --systemd argument

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> Urban, back in 2013 I faced a sort of mini-systemd situation: I kicked
> every KDE executable and library off my system, on the theory that if
> any KDE code got run, it could do heaven knows what to my system,
> because KDE is a hairball of monolithic entanglement. I was lucky for
> KDE's self-imposed naming scheme that taught me to be careful of
> anything starting with k. Still, it would be very nice to run a program
> whose output is a list of KDE components remaining on the computer, so
> if I find one, I can de-install its package and/or delete its files.

STEP 1:  Type 'apt-get install [foo]'  Command will wait for
your confirmation if there are dependencies.

STEP 2:  Review those dependencies to ensure they are not excessive or
unreasonable.

STEP 3:  If dependencies are excessive or unreasonable, type 'n'.  
Otherwise, type 'y'.


Oh, and spend some time determining what you deem unreasonable.

There, fixed it for you.

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Re: [DNG] dbus-update-activation-environment: systemd --user not found, ignoring --systemd argument

[Luciano Mannucci]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 14:39:26 +
KatolaZ  wrote:

> Unless you really believe in *ghosts*, and accept as an act of faith
We believe in zombies, don't we?
We even *rely* on daemons... ;-)

(Sorry, I could'nt resist :)

Luciano.
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Re: [DNG] dbus-update-activation-environment: systemd --user not found, ignoring --systemd argument

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 15:35:42 +0100
Irrwahn  wrote:

> J. Fahrner wrote on 13.02.2018 14:55:
> > Am 2018-02-13 13:50, schrieb Irrwahn:  

> > But wouldn't it be nice to have a patch-script,
> > which locates all known files containing "systemd" and patches them
> > to remove this systemd stuff after installation?
> >   
> 
> Please feel free to correct me, but I don't believe it's that simple.
> First off, someone would have to locate all these instances, and
> verify it's safe to patch them, and how, and keep that list up to
> date and operational on each iteration of every affected package, all
> while taking into account any possible cross-package side effects.
> Secondly, that script would have to be run after every system
> upgrade, no matter how minor or trivial.

The program probably wouldn't take long to run.
 
> But for the sake of argument let's assume some volunteer (maybe
> you? :-)) stepped up to maintain such a beast: What would be the
> benefit gained by it? Avoiding some benign informational log
> messages? 

Urban, back in 2013 I faced a sort of mini-systemd situation: I kicked
every KDE executable and library off my system, on the theory that if
any KDE code got run, it could do heaven knows what to my system,
because KDE is a hairball of monolithic entanglement. I was lucky for
KDE's self-imposed naming scheme that taught me to be careful of
anything starting with k. Still, it would be very nice to run a program
whose output is a list of KDE components remaining on the computer, so
if I find one, I can de-install its package and/or delete its files.

This would be even more handy with systemd, because systemd's a worse
problem, and because systemd hasn't named programs and components for
easy extermination.

The original poster suggested the program also uninstall found systemd
components. I think that's better done manually, after thoughtful
reflection.
 
SteveT
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Re: [DNG] dbus-update-activation-environment: systemd --user not found, ignoring --systemd argument

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 02:55:12PM +0100, J. Fahrner wrote:
> Am 2018-02-13 13:50, schrieb Irrwahn:
> >That message can safely be ignored.
> >
> >This is caused by the dbus startup from script(s) /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ .
> >It basically means that dbus did not find systemd upon launch, which is
> >to be expected on a Devuan system that by definition comes w/o systemd.
> 
> I know most scripts and config files come from Debian, and the Devuan devs
> don't want to touch every package containing such systemd directives. But
> wouldn't it be nice to have a patch-script, which locates all known files
> containing "systemd" and patches them to remove this systemd stuff after
> installation?
> 

I genuinely don't understand how can something be harmful if it relies
on a software that is not running, is not even installed, and cannot
be installed ever. But yet, people keep complaining about "systemd
stuff" lingering around in their hard disks :\

Again, this "systemd stuff" amounts to actions that are aiming at
determining if systemd is present or not, or to scripts that can be
run only by a working systemd installation. If you use only Devuan
repos, systemd *cannot* be present anywhere in your system, cannot be
installed, cannot run, cannot talk with any other software, cannot run
any external script, and cannot do any harm at all.

Unless you really believe in *ghosts*, and accept as an act of faith
(i.e., something that does not need a logical and technological
explanation) that when a software makes a dbus call on your laptop,
trying to see if systemd is running by any chance, it can indeed
remotely "activate" a systemd daemon running on another machine, in
another country, and spy over your shoulders... o_O

Now, if we had infinite resources and a larger number of developers,
we could also consider removing even the *totally* *harmless* scripts
that contain the word "systemd" anywhere. But seriously, to what
avail?

If I had more time to dedicate to Devuan, I would rather spend 1% of
the time needed to remove *totally* *harmless* "systemd stuff" to work
on supporting other alternative init/monitor systems, alternative
cgroup management utils, etc. This would really add to freedom and
diversity, in a concrete way. 

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


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Re: [DNG] dbus-update-activation-environment: systemd --user not found, ignoring --systemd argument

[Irrwahn]

J. Fahrner wrote on 13.02.2018 14:55:
> Am 2018-02-13 13:50, schrieb Irrwahn:
>> That message can safely be ignored.
>>
>> This is caused by the dbus startup from script(s) /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ 
>> .
>> It basically means that dbus did not find systemd upon launch, which is
>> to be expected on a Devuan system that by definition comes w/o systemd.

[ Nota bene: *Every* *single* Devuan installation in existence that has 
  the dbus-x11 package installed will throw this info message. ]
 
> I know most scripts and config files come from Debian, and the Devuan 
> devs don't want to touch every package containing such systemd 
> directives. But wouldn't it be nice to have a patch-script, which 
> locates all known files containing "systemd" and patches them to remove 
> this systemd stuff after installation?
> 

Please feel free to correct me, but I don't believe it's that simple.
First off, someone would have to locate all these instances, and verify 
it's safe to patch them, and how, and keep that list up to date and 
operational on each iteration of every affected package, all while taking 
into account any possible cross-package side effects. Secondly, that 
script would have to be run after every system upgrade, no matter how 
minor or trivial.

But for the sake of argument let's assume some volunteer (maybe you? :-)) 
stepped up to maintain such a beast: What would be the benefit gained by 
it? Avoiding some benign informational log messages? Sorry, but that 
makes a spurious argument:  If I've received even only the fraction of a 
penny for each bogus message cluttering up ~/.xsession-errors, or any other 
log file for that matter, my only worry in life would be how to defend my 
then-own private island against the rising sea level. ;-)  Or, attacking 
from another angle, if I were to file a bug report for every such incident 
I'd already be blacklisted for flooding the bug trackers.

AIUI(!) it's Devuan's mission to provide an universal operating system 
offering its users as much freedom of choice as _reasonably_ feasible, not 
to eradicate each and every verbatim reference to some specific software 
package. 

Heck, going by my observations there isn't ATM even enough manpower to 
strip all affected packages from 'real' dependencies on libsystemd0! (And, 
at least to me, it's not yet crystal clear if in the end that would even 
be desirable - go figure!)

Of course all that 2ct worth drivel reflects just my personal point of view, 
YMMV, and all the other usual disclaimers apply.

HAND, with best regards

Urban

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Re: [DNG] dbus-update-activation-environment: systemd --user not found, ignoring --systemd argument

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 13:41:40 +0100, J. wrote in message 
<022bc517b4f405d3419202c35b0b1...@fahrner.name>:

> Am 2018-02-13 13:30, schrieb J. Fahrner:
> > My .xsession-errors has the following warning
> > 
> > dbus-update-activation-environment: systemd --user not found,
> > ignoring --systemd
> >  argument
> > 
> > Any ideas what's causing this? Is there some wrong config file
> > around?  
> 
> Found 2 files in /etc/X11/Xsession.d which call 
> dbus-update-activation-environment with --systemd argument
> 

..I found one:  root@d44:~# cat /etc/X11/Xsession.d/90qt-a11y 
# -*- sh -*-
# Xsession.d script to set the env variables to enable accessibility
for Qt #
# This file is sourced by Xsession(5), not executed.

QT_ACCESSIBILITY=1
QT_LINUX_ACCESSIBILITY_ALWAYS_ON=1

export QT_ACCESSIBILITY QT_LINUX_ACCESSIBILITY_ALWAYS_ON

if [ -x "/usr/bin/dbus-update-activation-environment" ]; then \
dbus-update-activation-environment --verbose --systemd \
QT_ACCESSIBILITY QT_LINUX_ACCESSIBILITY_ALWAYS_ON 
fi

..I take it we need to watch dbus too.


..my recommendation now, is install _both_ apt-listchanges _and_
apt-listdifferences _and_ chk the output of _both_ until we come 
up with a better way to keep systemd etc tricks out of our boxes.
 

..apt-listchanges only shows whatever our true friends over at Debian
adds to the Changelogs, apt-listdifferences will fetch source packages
and diff those against the previous version so we can search and find
whatever made it into the source packages.  

..this above of course leaves the binary blob and Ken Thompson style
compiler hack etc attacks, but we'll inch one wee step closer to where
we need to go.


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Re: [DNG] dbus-update-activation-environment: systemd --user not found, ignoring --systemd argument

[J. Fahrner]

Am 2018-02-13 13:50, schrieb Irrwahn:

That message can safely be ignored.

This is caused by the dbus startup from script(s) /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ 
.

It basically means that dbus did not find systemd upon launch, which is
to be expected on a Devuan system that by definition comes w/o systemd.


I know most scripts and config files come from Debian, and the Devuan 
devs don't want to touch every package containing such systemd 
directives. But wouldn't it be nice to have a patch-script, which 
locates all known files containing "systemd" and patches them to remove 
this systemd stuff after installation?


Jochen
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Re: [DNG] dbus-update-activation-environment: systemd --user not found, ignoring --systemd argument

[Irrwahn]

J. Fahrner wrote on 13.02.2018 13:30:
> My .xsession-errors has the following warning
> 
> dbus-update-activation-environment: systemd --user not found, ignoring 
> --systemd
>   argument
> 
> Any ideas what's causing this? Is there some wrong config file around?

That message can safely be ignored.

This is caused by the dbus startup from script(s) /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ .
It basically means that dbus did not find systemd upon launch, which is 
to be expected on a Devuan system that by definition comes w/o systemd.

HTH
Best regards

Urban

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Re: [DNG] dbus-update-activation-environment: systemd --user not found, ignoring --systemd argument

[J. Fahrner]

Am 2018-02-13 13:30, schrieb J. Fahrner:

My .xsession-errors has the following warning

dbus-update-activation-environment: systemd --user not found, ignoring 
--systemd

 argument

Any ideas what's causing this? Is there some wrong config file around?


Found 2 files in /etc/X11/Xsession.d which call 
dbus-update-activation-environment with --systemd argument

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[DNG] dbus-update-activation-environment: systemd --user not found, ignoring --systemd argument

[J. Fahrner]

My .xsession-errors has the following warning

dbus-update-activation-environment: systemd --user not found, ignoring 
--systemd

 argument

Any ideas what's causing this? Is there some wrong config file around?

Jochen
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