Re: [DNG] Congratulations! and some migration questions (was: Re: Devuan "ASCII" 2.0 Release Candidate)

[Martin Steigerwald]

Hi KatolaZ.

Thank you for your answers.

KatolaZ - 10.05.18, 15:34:
> On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 01:24:01PM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
[…]
> > I´d like to switch over my backup VM first and wonder whether the
> > network device with Devuan ASCII will be called "eth0" again. Thats
> > totally fine with me, however I´d like to know before hand, so I can
[…]
> the default in ASCII is to use the traditional names "eth0", "wlan0"
> etc. You can change it if you want.

Indeed it is. I am fine with that.

So I have my first server, my backup server, with Devuan Ascii + OpenRC. 
:) I will be seeing how that works out in the next weeks.

I understand that default names may cause clashes for device renaming 
via udev if several network drivers initialize network interfaces at the 
same time. However I don´t agree with the complexity of the new systemd 
naming scheme. In RHEL Networking Guide they have a whole chapter + sub 
chapter explaining this mess.

I think something like en0, en1, en2, configurable with persistency 
might be nice, but just don´t overdo this.

[1] Chapter 8. Consistent Network Device Naming, and no this is no joke

https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/red_hat_enterprise_linux/
7/html/networking_guide/ch-consistent_network_device_naming

Thanks,
-- 
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Re: [DNG] Congratulations! and some migration questions

[Olaf Meeuwissen]

Hi Didier,

Didier Kryn writes:

> [... purge Network Manager...]
>
>   BTW, I'm not sure ifupdown and the interfaces file are installed by
> default nowadays. I don't remember which package one must install to
> have all this traditional infrastructure, though, if it's already
> installed, it won't be removed when dist-upgrading.

FYI, ifupdown is (still) installed by default but a simple `apt-get
install ifupdown` will put it in place if necessary.

# I have a habit of marking all installed automatic after the initial
# installation and configure APT to purge any unnecessary packages,
# occasionally even telling it to ignore Recommends:
# If you do that ifupdown may get purged.

>   If you have a wifi interface, it is more complicated. Explained below.
>
> 'apt-get install wpa-supplicant wpa-gui',

FTR, the package names are wpasupplicant and wpagui, without the -

> then write the following two
> lines into /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf:
>
> ctrl_interface=DIR=/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=dialout
> update_config=1
>
>   Make yourself a member of group dialout. Then search the web for a
> tutorial on wifi roaming with wpa_supplicant: it will explain you how to
> write the wifi part of the interfaces file. To finish with,
> 'dpkg-reconfigure ifplugd' to tell it to handle your wifi interface. Use
> wpa_gui everytime you want to connect your laptop to a yet-unknown wifi hub.

Thanks for the above.  Made my take a look at what wicd was doing under
the covers.  Should have done so a lot earlier ;-)

It puts snippets for your wireless interface(s) below
/var/lib/wicd/configurations/ and uses those to run wpa_supplicant like
so

  wpa_supplicant -B -i $if -c /var/lib/wicd/configurations/$mac

where $if is the interface name, typically wlan0.  The $mac is the MAC
address of the wireless access point, lower-cased, no : separators.

You can use the files in /var/lib/wicd/configurations/ to seed your
/etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicaton.conf file.

As for the group, the user that installed the system is a member of the
netdev group by default, I think.  Looks like a good default choice to
me, unless wpa_supplicant has special requirements.
Definitely more nowadaisy than dialout (or dip) :-)
BTW, group "definitions" can be found in

  file://usr/share/doc/base-password/user-and-groups.txt.gz (outdated?)
  https://wiki.debian.org/SystemGroups

I'm off now, reconfiguring my wireless setup.

Hope this helps,
--
Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27
 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13  F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9
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Re: [DNG] Congratulations! and some migration questions

[Olaf Meeuwissen]

Hi,

viverna writes:

> il devuanizzato Didier Kryn  il 10-05-18 17:49:42 ha scritto:
>> does the job as it always did. In case you want your system to
>> deconfigure/reconfigure Ethernet interfaces when you unplug/replug the
>> cables, then 'apt-get install ifplugd'; it's potterware but it just works.
> I prefer to use netplug:
> apt-get install netplug
> it is not potterware.

Battled Network Manager
Fought wicd
Now I have peace!
# At least for my wired interfaces

Documentation is crisp clear.  Functionality is simple.

Thanks,
--
Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27
 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13  F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9
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Re: [DNG] Congratulations! and some migration questions

[viverna]

il devuanizzato Didier Kryn  il 11-05-18 08:00:28 ha scritto:
> Le 10/05/2018 à 19:12, viverna a écrit :
> >il devuanizzato Didier Kryn  il 10-05-18 17:49:42 ha scritto:
> >>does the job as it always did. In case you want your system to
> >>deconfigure/reconfigure Ethernet interfaces when you unplug/replug the
> >>cables, then 'apt-get install ifplugd'; it's potterware but it just works.
> >I prefer to use netplug:
> >apt-get install netplug
> >it is not potterware.
> >
>     Happy to learn there's an alternative :-)
In FOSS world this is very important. :-)

-- 
viverna
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Re: [DNG] Congratulations! and some migration questions

[Didier Kryn]

Le 10/05/2018 à 19:12, viverna a écrit :

il devuanizzato Didier Kryn  il 10-05-18 17:49:42 ha scritto:

does the job as it always did. In case you want your system to
deconfigure/reconfigure Ethernet interfaces when you unplug/replug the
cables, then 'apt-get install ifplugd'; it's potterware but it just works.

I prefer to use netplug:
apt-get install netplug
it is not potterware.


    Happy to learn there's an alternative :-)


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Re: [DNG] Congratulations! and some migration questions

[Alessandro Selli]

On 10/05/2018 at 17:56, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 05:49:42PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> 
> [cut]
> 
>>
>>     If you have a wifi interface, it is more complicated. Explained below.
>>
>> 'apt-get install wpa-supplicant wpa-gui', then write the following two lines
>> into /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf:
>>
>> ctrl_interface=DIR=/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=dialout
>> update_config=1
>>
>>     Make yourself a member of group dialout.  Then search the web for a
>> tutorial on wifi roaming with wpa_supplicant: it will explain you how to
>> write the wifi part of the interfaces file. To finish with,
>> 'dpkg-reconfigure ifplugd' to tell it to handle your wifi interface. Use
>> wpa_gui everytime you want to connect your laptop to a yet-unknown wifi hub.
>>
> 
> 
> ...or, you might want to give a try to setnet ;)

  I really should do it.


Alessandro
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Re: [DNG] Congratulations! and some migration questions

[wirelessduck]

> On 11 May 2018, at 03:12, viverna  wrote:
> 
> il devuanizzato Didier Kryn  il 10-05-18 17:49:42 ha scritto:
>> does the job as it always did. In case you want your system to
>> deconfigure/reconfigure Ethernet interfaces when you unplug/replug the
>> cables, then 'apt-get install ifplugd'; it's potterware but it just works.
> I prefer to use netplug:
> apt-get install netplug
> it is not potterware.

Those suggestions are excellent. I am constantly switching network cables in my 
desktop and so had Network Manager installed to do it easily.

I’ve just installed netplug, configured /etc/network/interfaces, and have now 
happily ditched the extra Network Manager bloat running here. Interfaces still 
connect to dhcp automatically when cables are unplugged/plugged :D

Thanks

—Tom
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Re: [DNG] Congratulations! and some migration questions (was: Re: Devuan "ASCII" 2.0 Release Candidate)

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 10 May 2018 18:02:38 +0100, KatolaZ wrote in message 
<20180510170238.gq26...@katolaz.homeunix.net>:

> On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 11:45:21AM -0500, Don Wright wrote:
> > >On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 01:24:01PM +0200, Martin Steigerwald
> > >wrote:  
> >   
> > >> You are still using "apt-get". With Debian Stretch and later I
> > >> switched my habit to using the shorter, newly written "apt"
> > >> command.  
> > 
> > KatolaZ replied:
> >   
> > >You'd be surpried in discovering that there are even people still
> > >using dselect. Newly-written does not always correlate positively
> > >with "better" :)  
> > 
> > 
> > One should note 'apt', like most of the Debian repository, is
> > available in Devuan and appears to work as intended. It was even
> > included in the Devuan live image I used to install ASCII beta a
> > while back. I haven't seen (or searched for) reasons not to use it,
> > would someone provide a reference to that discussion?
> >   
> 
> I guess nobody here has said that apt should not be used, or that it's
> worse or better than apt-get/apt-cache. The fact that apt's developers
> would like apt to become the default command-line interface in all
> deb-based systems does not automatically mean that everybody *must*
> use apt, either. As the fact that apt-get became available did not
> mean that dselect had to be discarded altogether.
> 
> You know, it's always better to have *more* options as time goes on,
> rather than less. If you are "free to choose" among *one single
> option*, can you still call it a choice at all? :)

..me, I prefer aptitude, "apt-get install aptitude ;aptitude " 
and go play around in the menus etc, if you don't like it, 8o)
"apt-get purge aptitude" and it's gone. :o)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Congratulations! and some migration questions

[viverna]

il devuanizzato Didier Kryn  il 10-05-18 17:49:42 ha scritto:
> does the job as it always did. In case you want your system to
> deconfigure/reconfigure Ethernet interfaces when you unplug/replug the
> cables, then 'apt-get install ifplugd'; it's potterware but it just works.
I prefer to use netplug:
apt-get install netplug
it is not potterware.

-- 
viverna
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Re: [DNG] Congratulations! and some migration questions (was: Re: Devuan "ASCII" 2.0 Release Candidate)

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 11:45:21AM -0500, Don Wright wrote:
> >On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 01:24:01PM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> 
> >> You are still using "apt-get". With Debian Stretch and later I switched 
> >> my habit to using the shorter, newly written "apt" command.
> 
> KatolaZ replied:
> 
> >You'd be surpried in discovering that there are even people still
> >using dselect. Newly-written does not always correlate positively with
> >"better" :)
> 
> 
> One should note 'apt', like most of the Debian repository, is available in
> Devuan and appears to work as intended. It was even included in the Devuan
> live image I used to install ASCII beta a while back. I haven't seen (or
> searched for) reasons not to use it, would someone provide a reference to
> that discussion?
> 

I guess nobody here has said that apt should not be used, or that it's
worse or better than apt-get/apt-cache. The fact that apt's developers
would like apt to become the default command-line interface in all
deb-based systems does not automatically mean that everybody *must*
use apt, either. As the fact that apt-get became available did not
mean that dselect had to be discarded altogether.

You know, it's always better to have *more* options as time goes on,
rather than less. If you are "free to choose" among *one single
option*, can you still call it a choice at all? :)

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


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Re: [DNG] Congratulations! and some migration questions

[Didier Kryn]

Le 10/05/2018 à 17:56, KatolaZ a écrit :

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 05:49:42PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:

[cut]


     If you have a wifi interface, it is more complicated. Explained below.

'apt-get install wpa-supplicant wpa-gui', then write the following two lines
into /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf:

ctrl_interface=DIR=/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=dialout
update_config=1

     Make yourself a member of group dialout.  Then search the web for a
tutorial on wifi roaming with wpa_supplicant: it will explain you how to
write the wifi part of the interfaces file. To finish with,
'dpkg-reconfigure ifplugd' to tell it to handle your wifi interface. Use
wpa_gui everytime you want to connect your laptop to a yet-unknown wifi hub.



...or, you might want to give a try to setnet ;)


    I promise I'll try it on my next install.

    Didier

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Re: [DNG] Congratulations! and some migration questions

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 05:49:42PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:

[cut]

> 
>     If you have a wifi interface, it is more complicated. Explained below.
> 
> 'apt-get install wpa-supplicant wpa-gui', then write the following two lines
> into /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf:
> 
> ctrl_interface=DIR=/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=dialout
> update_config=1
> 
>     Make yourself a member of group dialout.  Then search the web for a
> tutorial on wifi roaming with wpa_supplicant: it will explain you how to
> write the wifi part of the interfaces file. To finish with,
> 'dpkg-reconfigure ifplugd' to tell it to handle your wifi interface. Use
> wpa_gui everytime you want to connect your laptop to a yet-unknown wifi hub.
> 


...or, you might want to give a try to setnet ;)

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


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Re: [DNG] Congratulations! and some migration questions

[Didier Kryn]

    Hi Martin.

Le 10/05/2018 à 13:24, Martin Steigerwald a écrit :

Especially I wonder about network without Network Manager


    The first thing I've done as from at least a dozen years, after 
installing a new version of Debian, was to 'apt-get remove --purge 
network-manager'. This f. crap is always in your way to 
deconfigure/misconfigure the network. ifupdown with a simple interfaces 
file does the job as it always did. In case you want your system to 
deconfigure/reconfigure Ethernet interfaces when you unplug/replug the 
cables, then 'apt-get install ifplugd'; it's potterware but it just works.


    BTW, I'm not sure ifupdown and the interfaces file are installed by 
default nowadays. I don't remember which package one must install to 
have all this traditional infrastructure, though, if it's already 
installed, it won't be removed when dist-upgrading.


    If you have a wifi interface, it is more complicated. Explained below.

'apt-get install wpa-supplicant wpa-gui', then write the following two 
lines into /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf:


ctrl_interface=DIR=/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=dialout
update_config=1

    Make yourself a member of group dialout.  Then search the web for a 
tutorial on wifi roaming with wpa_supplicant: it will explain you how to 
write the wifi part of the interfaces file. To finish with, 
'dpkg-reconfigure ifplugd' to tell it to handle your wifi interface. Use 
wpa_gui everytime you want to connect your laptop to a yet-unknown wifi hub.


    Didier


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Re: [DNG] Congratulations! and some migration questions (was: Re: Devuan "ASCII" 2.0 Release Candidate)

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 10 May 2018 13:24:01 +0200, Martin wrote in message 
<1817275.jr5NbVVTY5@merkaba>:

> Another thing is audio: Similar to Network Manager I meanwhile also
> use Pulseaudio for everything. I think I had even more install and
> purge cycles with that one. It was total crap for me till about
> Pulseaudio 7 or so.

..when was that?

..which version PA do you run now?

..do you have apulse? (As in:'dpkg -l apulse |fmt ')

> It is now mostly working nicely. 

..5.0-13+devuan2 is the latest Devuan version PA, AFAICS, Debian
offers 10.0-1+deb9u1 on my "ascii+experimental" laptop.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Congratulations! and some migration questions (was: Re: Devuan "ASCII" 2.0 Release Candidate)

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 01:24:01PM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:

[cut]

> 
> I´d like to switch over my backup VM first and wonder whether the 
> network device with Devuan ASCII will be called "eth0" again. Thats 
> totally fine with me, however I´d like to know before hand, so I can 

[cut]

Hi,

the default in ASCII is to use the traditional names "eth0", "wlan0"
etc. You can change it if you want. 

[cut]

> 
> > Upgrade paths from Debian Jessie, Devuan Jessie, and Debian Stretch
> > are available. Please see the instructions at:
> > https://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/
> 
> You are still using "apt-get". With Debian Stretch and later I switched 
> my habit to using the shorter, newly written "apt" command.
>

You'd be surpried in discovering that there are even people still
using dselect. Newly-written does not always correlate positively with
"better" :)

[cut]

> 
> 
> Especially I wonder about network without Network Manager, but on a 
> Plasma desktop – no, I won´t switch to something else. I have the 
> following scenarios for the laptop:

You can still use network-manager. It'a available in ASCII. Or wicd.

[cut]

> 
> Another thing is audio: Similar to Network Manager I meanwhile also use 
> Pulseaudio for everything. I think I had even more install and purge 
> cycles with that one. It was total crap for me till about Pulseaudio 7 
> or so. It is now mostly working nicely. Everything means:
>

Pulseaudio is still around, if you want/need it.

HTH

KatolaZ

-- 
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[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
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Re: [DNG] Congratulations! and some migration questions (was: Re: Devuan "ASCII" 2.0 Release Candidate)

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 01:24:01PM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> 
> I also wonder about migrating my main laptop. I think I first will give 
> myself some time to have experiences with the server VMs, before 
> attempting to do anything with the laptop. There is a huger complexity 
> involved for migrating a laptop with a ton of applications and usage 
> scenarios.
> 
> 
> Especially I wonder about network without Network Manager, but on a 
> Plasma desktop – no, I won´t switch to something else. I have the 
> following scenarios for the laptop:

I'm using a package called "wicd" on ascii.  It identifies itself as 
"Wicd Network Manager" when I activate its window.

I seem to have trouble getting it to recognise a wired 
ethernet connection when a wifi one is available but unreliable.
That may just be a configuraton issue I haven't worried about yet.

-- hendrik

> 
> - Cable based network with DHCP, but at one place with 801.x.
> 
> - Different, mostly WPA2 based, WLAN
> 
> - OpenVPN connection for employer network access 
> 
> I meanwhile – after a long time of installing and purging Network 
> Manager out of frustration – use Network Manager for all of this.
> 
> How would this play out with Devuan ASCII? Or well Ceres, as I am 
> currently using Debian GNU/Linux Sid on that machine. For OpenVPN I bet 
> I would be fine using a text based configuration file + some script to 
> set up some routes again. But the other stuff should work with some kind 
> of GUI that is working with Plasma desktop. I bet I may be out of luck 
> with that.
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