Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Monday 17 December 2018 09:48:10 pm Steve Litt wrote: > On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 11:10:20 +0100 > > KatolaZ wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 08:19:31PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > > On Wed, 12 Dec 2018 14:36:45 + > > > > > > g4sra via Dng wrote: > > > > Media partitioning, formatting > > > > Configure mountpoints > > > > Install Bootloader > > > > Install Kernel, Modules & Firmware > > > > Install Shell & package management software > > > > Configure console > > > > Configure network > > > > Boot > > > > > > > > Discuss... > > > > > > Above all else, query the user for his/her preferences, and coach > > > the user while making such decisions. Such decisions serve as input > > > to your list, which seems quite complete to me. > > > > Perhaps reframing it would make a difference. Perhaps renaming the > second program "Install Software" (install_software), [snip] :Software Yes, something that separates software into its own screen and also gives much better definition as to what the 'Software' being installed is would be very helpful. 'Web Server' makes sense to most people, but 'Console tools' means nothing to that same group. Further selection into even 'Web Server' would be helpful, especially as most read that as what LAMP stack are you installing for me. Does the user want Apache or nginx? Does the user want MySQL, MariaDB, MongoDB, or ??? Does the user want PHP, Perl, Python, or ??? :Firmware Firmware currently seems to need some work. Non-free won't install even though the packages are on the install media (DVD) and the computer has a hard-wired Ethernet connection. I’m not even sure if the Devuan installer even tries to install graphics drivers. Depending on whose survey you’re using (Steam in this case) NVIDIA has over 50% of the market in ~15 GeForce GTX cards. Add in the next 2 major groups* and it would seem 70-80% of these drivers would be installed ‘out of the box.’ * Maybe just one group? AMD Radon seems about it outside of a few Intel's up to the 90% total usage mark. GPU driver full disclosure: Since there don’t seem to be any Devuan instructions, following Debian instructions I can’t even get the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060, supposedly the most used graphics card, drivers to install. Being butthurt might be biasing my opinion a bit... Humor aside, having the distribution that installs ~75% of people graphics cards ‘out-of-the-box’ would be a pretty major reason for people to install Devuan over anything else. > > > You know what would really be fun? An installer that asks *all* of > > > the necessary questions right at the front, so you can walk away > > > and do something else while it installs itself. I find installers > > > that keep asking me questions every 10 minutes annoying. > > > > You can use preseeding for that. And you are not asked any question at > > all. > > Not the same thing. I want the discoverability of a menu when I define > all aspects. Perhaps the best of both worlds could be obtained by > having a Curses or GUI program providing questions to create the > preseed. Now THAT would be cool! I’ve always wanted this. The downside having always been, you come back 4 hours later and it barfed in the first 10 minutes. Maybe continually flash the screen upon an error or something, since having the old PC speaker standby is iffy now. Best, Michael ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
[let's see if I can send to the list instead of replying to an individual this time...] On Tuesday 18 December 2018 11:30:47 am g4sra via Dng wrote: > [snip] > > > You are confusing a simple config file that is read once and for all > > during boot time (the config file on raspberry pis) with the complete > > installation of a new system. They are not even comparable. There is > > no thing like "oh I re-run the installer configuration to change the > > layout of my partitions". > > No, building a system under the concept I am trying to describe is a two > step procedure. You are still merging both steps into one. > > Even simpler explanation (so simple it is wrong). > > Stage 1) install kernel using program 1 from installation media. > > -- reboot -- > > Stage 2) Install GNOME using program 2 from running built system. Replace TDE for GNOME and this is exactly my install procedure currently. It’s a bit of a pita, because I didn’t know the below, so you have zero desktop and are working in a root shell. On Tuesday 18 December 2018 12:53:11 pm KatolaZ wrote: > Are you familiar with the Debian/Devuan installer? "tasksel" is the > installer component that lets you choose which set of packages you > want to install *after* the base system has been installed. It > includes selections like "XFCE desktop", "KDE Desktop", "Printer > server", "SSH server", "web server", "Console productivity", "Standard > system utilities", etc. You choose what you want, it installs the > corresponding packages. If you change idea after installation, you > just run again "tasksel" (from the installed system) and change your > selections. It's already there. Documenting that you can run "tasksel" (from the installed system) on the initial install screen would be very useful. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Tuesday 18 December 2018 07:19:05 am Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 10:51:53PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 13:28:43 +0100 > > KatolaZ wrote: > > > > Also, Hendrik is right: If the bootable installer > > finds information, it should be saved for the secondary installer to > > use. > > It would be enough if the software the bootable installer used were > still available after the minimal installation to find out the same > information again. And if it were clearly documented how the user > could go about this. Would this be any different from the user’s perspective than them using something like the Synaptic package manager? If not, then some documentation during install would work? Best, Michael ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On 12/21/18, g4sra via Dng wrote: > Thanks for the video, it took me more than three attempts :P. > I had existing partitions on the drive that I needed to keep so did not > go near the 'use entire disk' option. The partitioning in the video does > not encrypt the entire disk, it leaves /boot outside. Kernel and initrd > are exposed giving a potential attack vector. Yes, it's confusing. And yes, I made the video before I knew how to do full disk encryption. I thought d-i did it correctly, but I might be remembering wrong. I know refractainstaller will do full disk encryption and add the cryptodisk line to /etc/default/grub. It won't edit cryptsetup.functions for you to help with shutdown. I've seen a few different fixes for that. If it's not fixed upstream, I guess I should pick one. fsr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On 12/21/18 7:41 AM, g4sra via Dng wrote: > >> Here's a video showing how to create an encrypted partition using the >> manual partitioning step in the installer. You probably did it wrong. >> Don't feel bad - I did it wrong three times before I got it right for >> the video, and I've done this before. >> http://distro.ibiblio.org/refracta/misc/partition_encrypt-4.ogv > > Thanks for the video, it took me more than three attempts :P. > I had existing partitions on the drive that I needed to keep so did not > go near the 'use entire disk' option. The partitioning in the video does > not encrypt the entire disk, it leaves /boot outside. Kernel and initrd > are exposed giving a potential attack vector. If you have a BIOS that will boot from a USB disk then you can encrypt your whole hard drive. You have to protect the USB disk, though, and should probably keep a few in case one fails. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
> Here's a video showing how to create an encrypted partition using the > manual partitioning step in the installer. You probably did it wrong. > Don't feel bad - I did it wrong three times before I got it right for > the video, and I've done this before. > http://distro.ibiblio.org/refracta/misc/partition_encrypt-4.ogv Thanks for the video, it took me more than three attempts :P. I had existing partitions on the drive that I needed to keep so did not go near the 'use entire disk' option. The partitioning in the video does not encrypt the entire disk, it leaves /boot outside. Kernel and initrd are exposed giving a potential attack vector. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On 12/17/18, g4sra via Dng wrote: > On 17/12/2018 00:41, Alessandro Selli wrote: >> On 16/12/18 at 13:28, KatolaZ wrote: >>> automagic disk encryption, >> The present impossibility of installing ASCII on an encrypted root is >> a show-stopper to my laptop installs > The most taxing step in my case was getting the partitioner to do what I > wanted. > I could not skip that step and manually partition as I could find no easy > way of > then defining the mount points (tips please, if anyone has any). Here's a video showing how to create an encrypted partition using the manual partitioning step in the installer. You probably did it wrong. Don't feel bad - I did it wrong three times before I got it right for the video, and I've done this before. http://distro.ibiblio.org/refracta/misc/partition_encrypt-4.ogv fsmithred ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 06:28:06PM +, g4sra via Dng wrote: > > > > I still fail understanding what you mean by "Program 2". It's called, > > maybe, just "apt-get" or "synaptic". > > > > OK, um.. > take tasksel, clone it into two. > > In tasksel one [1], keep everything that is NOT optional (and is stateful). > Partitioning, formatting, kernel, bootloader, package manager of choice. > > In tasksel two [2], keep everything that is optional and changeable (and is > stateless). Are you familiar with the Debian/Devuan installer? "tasksel" is the installer component that lets you choose which set of packages you want to install *after* the base system has been installed. It includes selections like "XFCE desktop", "KDE Desktop", "Printer server", "SSH server", "web server", "Console productivity", "Standard system utilities", etc. You choose what you want, it installs the corresponding packages. If you change idea after installation, you just run again "tasksel" (from the installed system) and change your selections. It's already there. However, I cannot see any change in a distribution (i.e., in the set of packages that are installed at a certain time in a system) that is "stateless". dpkg is a stateful package manager. yum is a stateful package manager. xbps is a stateful package manager. tasksel is half-stateful, since it cannot forbid you from uninstalling any of the packages on which the task meta-pakcages depend, and in the end the only master of packages is dpkg. What you seem to want is something like "yast", a central configuration manager. Now, you can have a central configuration manager if you ship just one DE, one http server, one sql server, and so on. This is not the case of Debian/Devuan, where there are nearly 50.000 available packages, and not just a single use-case (e.g., a GNOME desktop with no servers around). Such a centralised configuration manager would require an abnormal amount of work to be kept updated with the latest versions of all the packages available. I personally don't want anything like that, and I really hope that nobody embarks in such a quest, if they want to maintain their mental sanity :P My2cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 06:36:30PM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote: > > Yeah but all the partitioner questions can be asked before the action is > committed. Not that mkfs takes a noticeable amount of time anyway... Can be ... at present I don't think you can start defining partitions in a RAID or LLVM before the RAID and LLVM have actually been created. Of course it *could* be otherwise. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
> > I still fail understanding what you mean by "Program 2". It's called, > maybe, just "apt-get" or "synaptic". > OK, um.. take tasksel, clone it into two. In tasksel one [1], keep everything that is NOT optional (and is stateful). Partitioning, formatting, kernel, bootloader, package manager of choice. In tasksel two [2], keep everything that is optional and changeable (and is stateless). [1] is run once from installation media (USB, cdrom, bootp, ...) gives you a bare minimum bloatless base install Has low maintenance and developer demand once created as it will barely need to change over time. [2] can be run at any time from the built system to change timezone, country, etc There *are* issues that need to be handled, such as language selection, which *may* need to be in [1] and [2] (because apt depends on LANG= in cases) This is how we solve the issue of : VUA's wanting a basic no-bloat install that they can control. Newbies that cannot\dontwant use the command line. And every type of user in-between. Not needing to maintain multiple installation media images. You now maintain fewer smaller simpler easier to test media images. And one second stage installer. No Debian (Devuan) does not have this, I want it, I am prepared to have a crack at hacking [1] even though I am not a developer or programmer, providing there is interest and others willing to contribute testing, input of ideas etc. when I get stuck. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 05:30:47PM +, g4sra via Dng wrote: > [snip] > > > > You are confusing a simple config file that is read once and for all > > during boot time (the config file on raspberry pis) with the complete > > installation of a new system. They are not even comparable. There is > > no thing like "oh I re-run the installer configuration to change the > > layout of my partitions". > > > > No, building a system under the concept I am trying to describe is a two step > procedure. > You are still merging both steps into one. > > Even simpler explanation (so simple it is wrong). > > Stage 1) install kernel using program 1 from installation media. > > -- reboot -- > > Stage 2) Install GNOME using program 2 from running built system. This is just: apt-get install task-gnome-desktop I still fail understanding what you mean by "Program 2". It's called, maybe, just "apt-get" or "synaptic". My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 05:24:10PM +, g4sra via Dng wrote: > I often have difficulty with correct terminology despite having a very > definite > idea. > > The term 'Installer' applies to the first stage actions taken outside of the > package manager such as partitioning, formatting, bootloader and kernel... > which actually make the build host bootable. There 'may' be other steps in > addition (e.g SSH), but that will be up to the individual performing the > build. > > Can anybody identify any issue with chrooting a shell onto the installed media > 'before' reboot to allow for manual changes (e.g. apt-get) should the builder > wish ? > But this is something you can already do from the "Installer" (just select "Run a shell", one of the last items in the main menu). > > But then there is the second stage, language selection, keyboard map > selection, > fit for purpose package selection...any of these may change in the future. > So far I have been using the terms 'customise' and 'configure' but neither > of these terms sit well with me. > > Does anybody have a better suggestion for naming the second stage ? I would call it "initial system configuration", maybe? It looks like you have in mind something like the old "yast" in SuSe. There is nothing like that in Debian, AFAIK. At least not something that is shipped by Debian and tailored around Debian. And there is a very good reason for that: you don't have two Debian systems that look exactly the same, so maintaining such a "universal config manager" which allows you to change the system configuration independently of which packages and components you have decided to use would be an enourmous PITA. Debian/Devuan is not a ready-to-use-out-of-the-box distro like Ubuntu or Mint. It's more a pick-what-you-want-and-carry-on distro. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 06:19:39PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > > It is my view that the configuration program should be capable of being > > run at any time after installation, even multiple times on separate > > occasions as required. > > I am not sure what you exactly mean here. The installer cannot be run > in "demo" mode, because almost any of the steps involved (except > keyboard and language selection) depend on the success of one or > usually several of the previous steps. In other words, the installer > is a *stateful* application. And could not be otherwise. A good part of the questions can be [re-]done after the installation has completed. > You simply can't install the base system if you haven't downloaded the > needed packages I see no benefits from the installer being modular -- ie, udebs loaded on-demand. These days, that's just pointless complication. Note the difference between udebs (installer components) vs debs (the payload, relevant only for target system). Of course d-i can remain modular conceptually or source-wise, but there's no longer any benefit from it being modular at runtime. > and mounted the root filesystem. You cannot mount the > root filesystem if you have not formatted it. You cannot format the > root filesystem if you haven't created a partition for it. Yeah but all the partitioner questions can be asked before the action is committed. Not that mkfs takes a noticeable amount of time anyway... Downloading actual debs that are not found on install media can be done after the human-off cutoff. > You cannot create a partition if you haven't detected the available disks > and decided how to configure them. "Detect the disks" is a read-only action. You don't need to actually write partitions to the disk to answer any remaining questions. > Same for the packages: you cannot download the packages if you haven't > configured the package manager and set a mirror. Configuring the mirror and package selection are prime candidates for dry-run preseeding. > You can't configure a mirror if you haven't a working Internet connection. > You can't have a working Internet connection if you haven't detected the > available network hardware, loaded any needed firmware, fired it up, > assigned to it a valid IP address, configured a default GW, and set up a > DNS. That's mostly valid, but can be done as a read-only action. > > For a simple example of the concept see the Raspberry Pi 'raspi-config' > > utility. > > Differing configuration UI's could potentially be developed over time... > > zsh, then ncurses, Xorg based (QT?)... > You are confusing a simple config file that is read once and for all > during boot time (the config file on raspberry pis) with the complete > installation of a new system. They are not even comparable. There is > no thing like "oh I re-run the installer configuration to change the > layout of my partitions". Parts of raspi-config make sense only once, many others are reconfigurable. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Ivan was a worldly man: born in St. Petersburg, raised in ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Petrograd, lived most of his life in Leningrad, then returned ⠈⠳⣄ to the city of his birth to die. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
[snip] > > You are confusing a simple config file that is read once and for all > during boot time (the config file on raspberry pis) with the complete > installation of a new system. They are not even comparable. There is > no thing like "oh I re-run the installer configuration to change the > layout of my partitions". > No, building a system under the concept I am trying to describe is a two step procedure. You are still merging both steps into one. Even simpler explanation (so simple it is wrong). Stage 1) install kernel using program 1 from installation media. -- reboot -- Stage 2) Install GNOME using program 2 from running built system. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 04:58:00PM +, g4sra via Dng wrote: > On 18/12/2018 03:48, Steve Litt wrote: > > [snip] > > Perhaps reframing it would make a difference. Perhaps renaming the > > second program "Install Software" (install_software), and having it > > boot into install_software, would satisfy all but the most > > windows-phobic that the sum of the two programs are "the installation." > > Adn the first time you run install_software and click OK, it deletes a > > flag file the first installer (the one that boots from DVD or Thumb) > > put there. > > > > Now that I understand what's involved. I don't at all begrudge Windows > > for booting in the middle of an install. > > > It is a real PITA (and can be expensive to companies) to spend an hour > building a system (watching GNOME suck in all its dependencies) only for > it to fail to boot because of an issue with a RAID controller, a graphics > card, EFI etc. These issues are usually better identified early in the > build process. Yeah... but this particular problem can be solved in the installer, and work _better_ than having to do it after installing: * the installer doesn't need to be crash-safe: dpkg fsyncs every file it touches, and rewrites the whole status file after every stage, also fsyncing it. Eatmydata could greatly help, but even then you don't need status file writes at all -- just once at the end would be enough. Adding stuff on a live system can't use this optimization (which isn't implemented). * CD/DVD/BD-ROMs have gone the way of the dodo a decade ago, any modern computer installs from USB/SD (if not network). These media are writeable, thus if you downloaded only netinst, additional packages can get saved onto the stick/15mm floppy. This avoids wasting bandwidth if you need multiple installs. > >>> You know what would really be fun? An installer that asks *all* of > >>> the necessary questions right at the front, so you can walk away > >>> and do something else while it installs itself. I find installers > >>> that keep asking me questions every 10 minutes annoying. Hell yeah oh please. Tasksel and popcon need to happen before the human-off phase commences. > Windows NT did this using its 34 Floppy Disk install, first disk booted and > quizzed the installee, whom then just sat there swapping floppy disks... > been there, done that! Did floppy 33 have a bad sector? :p > >> You can use preseeding for that. And you are not asked any question at > >> all. Preseeding is very user unfriendly. What about saving the answers to the install medium (see my remark above about caching packages downloaded from the network)? It'd allow to repeat the install without forcing the user to learn anything. > > Not the same thing. I want the discoverability of a menu when I define > > all aspects. Perhaps the best of both worlds could be obtained by > > having a Curses or GUI program providing questions to create the > > preseed. Now THAT would be cool! Aye. Current interface shares debconf's limitations -- either debconf should be extended or the UI replaced with something dedicated. Tasksel in particular really could learn from kernel's menuconfig. > It should be viable to either strip the UI & questions from the installer > retaining the log\preseed creation or simply set a flag so the installer > does not 'act' on the selected options but still logs as if it did. > I prefer the flag option. Possibly, yeah. This would require asking the questions beforehand rather than at random times strewn around the install process, but -- as I said four sections above... > To clarify further... > It is my view that the configuration program should be capable of being > run at any time after installation, even multiple times on separate > occasions as required. Especially in the ARM world, any board that d-i doesn't have a specific support for requires a manual debootstrap. A separable configuration program would be nice. > For a simple example of the concept see the Raspberry Pi 'raspi-config' > utility. > Differing configuration UI's could potentially be developed over time... > zsh, then ncurses, Xorg based (QT?)... Aye. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Ivan was a worldly man: born in St. Petersburg, raised in ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Petrograd, lived most of his life in Leningrad, then returned ⠈⠳⣄ to the city of his birth to die. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 04:58:00PM +, g4sra via Dng wrote: [cut] > > To clarify further... > It is my view that the configuration program should be capable of being > run at any time after installation, even multiple times on separate > occasions as required. > I am not sure what you exactly mean here. The installer cannot be run in "demo" mode, because almost any of the steps involved (except keyboard and language selection) depend on the success of one or usually several of the previous steps. In other words, the installer is a *stateful* application. And could not be otherwise. You simply can't install the base system if you haven't downloaded the needed packages and mounted the root filesystem. You cannot mount the root filesystem if you have not formatted it. You cannot format the root filesystem if you haven't created a partition for it. You cannot create a partition if you haven't detected the available disks and decided how to configure them. Same for the packages: you cannot download the packages if you haven't configured the package manager and set a mirror. You can't configure a mirror if you haven't a working Internet connection. You can't have a working Internet connection if you haven't detected the available network hardware, loaded any needed firmware, fired it up, assigned to it a valid IP address, configured a default GW, and set up a DNS. What are we talking about, exactly? o_O > For a simple example of the concept see the Raspberry Pi 'raspi-config' > utility. > Differing configuration UI's could potentially be developed over time... > zsh, then ncurses, Xorg based (QT?)... > > You are confusing a simple config file that is read once and for all during boot time (the config file on raspberry pis) with the complete installation of a new system. They are not even comparable. There is no thing like "oh I re-run the installer configuration to change the layout of my partitions". HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On 18/12/2018 03:48, Steve Litt wrote: > [snip] > Perhaps reframing it would make a difference. Perhaps renaming the > second program "Install Software" (install_software), and having it > boot into install_software, would satisfy all but the most > windows-phobic that the sum of the two programs are "the installation." > Adn the first time you run install_software and click OK, it deletes a > flag file the first installer (the one that boots from DVD or Thumb) > put there. > > Now that I understand what's involved. I don't at all begrudge Windows > for booting in the middle of an install. It is a real PITA (and can be expensive to companies) to spend an hour building a system (watching GNOME suck in all its dependencies) only for it to fail to boot because of an issue with a RAID controller, a graphics card, EFI etc. These issues are usually better identified early in the build process. > > [snip] >>> >>> You know what would really be fun? An installer that asks *all* of >>> the necessary questions right at the front, so you can walk away >>> and do something else while it installs itself. I find installers >>> that keep asking me questions every 10 minutes annoying. Windows NT did this using its 34 Floppy Disk install, first disk booted and quizzed the installee, whom then just sat there swapping floppy disks... been there, done that! >>> >> >> You can use preseeding for that. And you are not asked any question at >> all. > > Not the same thing. I want the discoverability of a menu when I define > all aspects. Perhaps the best of both worlds could be obtained by > having a Curses or GUI program providing questions to create the > preseed. Now THAT would be cool! > It should be viable to either strip the UI & questions from the installer retaining the log\preseed creation or simply set a flag so the installer does not 'act' on the selected options but still logs as if it did. I prefer the flag option. To clarify further... It is my view that the configuration program should be capable of being run at any time after installation, even multiple times on separate occasions as required. For a simple example of the concept see the Raspberry Pi 'raspi-config' utility. Differing configuration UI's could potentially be developed over time... zsh, then ncurses, Xorg based (QT?)... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 04:29:25PM +, g4sra via Dng wrote: > On 18/12/2018 13:19, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 10:51:53PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > >> On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 13:28:43 +0100 > >> KatolaZ wrote: > > > >> Also, Hendrik is right: If the bootable installer > >> finds information, it should be saved for the secondary installer to > >> use. > > > > It would be enough if the software the bootable installer used were > > still available after the minimal installation to find out the same > > information again. And if it were clearly documented how the user > > could go about this. > > The concept I have in mind is that the questions answered and steps taken > during install are saved as a dual purpose log\preseed file. > > Both the installer and customiser would support acting upon (unattended) > and generating these files. > > This is nothing new, Red Hat did (still do?) this with Anaconda Installer. That's fine too. But to satisfy those who want complete control of the process, th sysadmin should decide whether to act on those files. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On 18/12/2018 13:19, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 10:51:53PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: >> On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 13:28:43 +0100 >> KatolaZ wrote: > >> Also, Hendrik is right: If the bootable installer >> finds information, it should be saved for the secondary installer to >> use. > > It would be enough if the software the bootable installer used were > still available after the minimal installation to find out the same > information again. And if it were clearly documented how the user > could go about this. The concept I have in mind is that the questions answered and steps taken during install are saved as a dual purpose log\preseed file. Both the installer and customiser would support acting upon (unattended) and generating these files. This is nothing new, Red Hat did (still do?) this with Anaconda Installer. To support your view, the customiser 'could' be written to also parse the installer log\preseed and extract relevant information from it. > >> But no need for the bootable installer to go out of its way to >> find these things out. >> >> SteveT > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 10:51:53PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 13:28:43 +0100 > KatolaZ wrote: > Also, Hendrik is right: If the bootable installer > finds information, it should be saved for the secondary installer to > use. It would be enough if the software the bootable installer used were still available after the minimal installation to find out the same information again. And if it were clearly documented how the user could go about this. > But no need for the bootable installer to go out of its way to > find these things out. > > SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 13:28:43 +0100 KatolaZ wrote: > ...and we end up with something of the same complexity of the current > debian-installer. Of course you do. The same questions must be answered either way. The distinction is that one way you're guaranteed a working kernel and bootable OS with very little BS, and then you can build on *the* OS you'll be using. Also, Hendrik is right: If the bootable installer finds information, it should be saved for the secondary installer to use. But no need for the bootable installer to go out of its way to find these things out. SteveT Steve Litt December 2018 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 11:10:20 +0100 KatolaZ wrote: > On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 08:19:31PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Wed, 12 Dec 2018 14:36:45 + > > g4sra via Dng wrote: > > > > > Media partitioning, formatting > > > Configure mountpoints > > > Install Bootloader > > > Install Kernel, Modules & Firmware > > > Install Shell & package management software > > > Configure console > > > Configure network > > > Boot > > > > > > Discuss... > > > > Above all else, query the user for his/her preferences, and coach > > the user while making such decisions. Such decisions serve as input > > to your list, which seems quite complete to me. > > I would be quite happy to write from scratch an installer that does > *exactly what is reported in that list* and nothing more. I mean, > something that just *installs the base system and a boot loader and > reboots you to the login prompt*. > > However, I am pretty sure that 99.9% of the Devuaners would probably > find the result quite uncomfortable, inconvenient, skinny, and overly > archaic. The main reason being that they (we) are used to perform part > of the system configuration *at install time*, and we just don't > realise how many other different things are done by d-i under the > hood. Perhaps reframing it would make a difference. Perhaps renaming the second program "Install Software" (install_software), and having it boot into install_software, would satisfy all but the most windows-phobic that the sum of the two programs are "the installation." Adn the first time you run install_software and click OK, it deletes a flag file the first installer (the one that boots from DVD or Thumb) put there. Now that I understand what's involved. I don't at all begrudge Windows for booting in the middle of an install. [snip] > > > > You know what would really be fun? An installer that asks *all* of > > the necessary questions right at the front, so you can walk away > > and do something else while it installs itself. I find installers > > that keep asking me questions every 10 minutes annoying. > > > > You can use preseeding for that. And you are not asked any question at > all. Not the same thing. I want the discoverability of a menu when I define all aspects. Perhaps the best of both worlds could be obtained by having a Curses or GUI program providing questions to create the preseed. Now THAT would be cool! SteveT Steve Litt December 2018 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 13:28:43 +0100, KatolaZ wrote in message <20181216122843.2lg34abliiena...@katolaz.homeunix.net>: > On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 07:08:10AM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > g4sra via Dng wrote: > > > > > > > > > Media partitioning, formatting > > > > > Configure mountpoints > > > > > Install Bootloader > > > > > Install Kernel, Modules & Firmware > > > > > Install Shell & package management software > > > > > Configure console > > > > > Configure network > > > > > Boot > > > > > > > > > > Discuss... > > [cut] > > > > > I'm not sure how minimal your preinstall would be, but what I've > > found difficult in the old days was finding the right device > > drivers, figuring out which packages to install to get them, enough > > network configuration to be able to download them, and, in the > > *really* old days, guessing the monitor geometry I need to get X to > > work. > > > > It was annoying to have to have to figure these thing out after > > install time whem the installer had already found answers that > > worked for it. > > :D > > You see: in just two emails we have come from a *minimal* base > installation (a shell with a kernel, a bootloader, and a working > dpkg/apt) to a fully-functioning network server (an ssh server with > configurable keys!) ..you may have missed my installer ssh server purpose: a *minimal* base installation made up by a shell with a kernel, a bootloader, a working dpkg/apt and a ssh server, ready for stage 2: customise the installed OS to purpose. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On 17/12/2018 00:41, Alessandro Selli wrote: > On 16/12/18 at 13:28, KatolaZ wrote: >> automagic disk encryption, > > > Well, if you cannot install on an encrypted root, encrypting it later > is a real PITA. > > The present impossibility of installing ASCII on an encrypted root is > a show-stopper to my laptop installs The most taxing step in my case was getting the partitioner to do what I wanted. I could not skip that step and manually partition as I could find no easy way of then defining the mount points (tips please, if anyone has any). I then had to generate the key /etc/keys/luks-key_for_sdX_crypt and edit /etc/default/grub GRUB_ENABLE_CRYPTODISK=y /etc/crypttab sdX_crypt UUID=1223456 /etc/keys/luks-key_for_sdX_crypt luks,initramfs /etc/cryptsetup-intramfs/conf-hook KEYFILE_PATTERN=/etc/keys/luks-* modify /usr/share/initramfs-tools/hooks/cryptroot # A WARNING is not an ERROR, give me back my FOC if printf '%s' "$OPTIONS" | grep -Eq '^(.*,)?rootdev(,.*)?$'; then #echo "cryptsetup: WARNING: root target $target uses a key file, skipped" >&2 #return 1 echo "cryptsetup: WARNING: root target $target uses a key file" >&2 # test whether a) key file is not on root fs # or b) root fs is not encrypted elif [ "$(stat -c %m -- "$key" 2>/dev/null)" != / ] || ! node_or_pv_is_in_crypttab $rootdevs; then #echo "cryptsetup: WARNING: $target's key file $key is not on an encrypted root FS, skipped" >&2 #return 1 echo "cryptsetup: WARNING: $target's key file $key is not on an encrypted root FS" >&2 fi then reinstall grub and remake the initrd. To fix delays during boot\shutdown I had to totally remove /etc/init.d/cryptdisks and all references to it. Having both cryptdisks-early and cryptdisks caused conflicts due to duplicated actions. Simply disabling cryptdisks left K0cryptdisks references (BUG) that are then invoked on reboot\shutdown. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On 16/12/18 at 13:28, KatolaZ wrote: > automagic disk encryption, Well, if you cannot install on an encrypted root, encrypting it later is a real PITA. The present impossibility of installing ASCII on an encrypted root is a show-stopper to my laptop installs (I install Debian, then, sometime, in the future, when I get enough time to do it, I'll migrate it to Devuan...) -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On 16/12/18 at 11:10, KatolaZ wrote: > However, I am pretty sure that 99.9% of the Devuaners would probably > find the result quite uncomfortable, inconvenient, skinny, and overly > archaic. Not I. What VUA would? -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On 16/12/2018 20:06, KatolaZ wrote: > On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 07:11:25PM +, g4sra via Dng wrote: > > [cut] > >> >> That is my issue, focus has been lost on what an 'Installer' should do. >> A great deal is performed at install time that falls into the domain of >> package manager'. Standard tools such as dpkg, apt-get, synaptec, >> dpkg-reconfigure are not leveraged by the installee as they should be. >> > > o_O > > You can use debootstrap, amend fstab, add a kernel and a boot-loader > and DYI. Or use the standard netinst without running tasksel and > skipping the config menus you don't want. It's already there. Need a running kernel and shell, need debootstrap, the package management and base packages on available media. > > [cut] > >> For convenience there is no reason additional but *separate* utilities >> could not be made available. Do not omit the simplicity and potential of >> a command such as >> >> apt-get install -y @group > > But this is exactly what tasksel does, if you want to use it. Which > "additional utilities" do you have in mind here, exactly? tasksel does too much, and doing too much requires more developer and maintenance resources than doing enough. Doing enough reduces the corner cases that cant be tested for which otherwise result in getting it plain wrong. > >> >> The base installer should be the lowest common denominator of all >> installs ranging from a Non-GUI Non-Networked Flash only Embedded Device >> to a Cloud Server Node. >> > > The lowest common denominator of all those installs is just the > base-system installed via debootstrap, plus a kernel and a bootloader. > It contains about 200 packages, has just a shell, a minimal > environment (which is not even POSIX-compliant), no network config, no > additional modules, no repos set, no l10n, no i18n, and so on. Again, > this is still what I use in many situations, That is a good approximation to what an installer should do. but my little experience > suggests that the vast majority of the readers of this list would be > pretty dissatisfied with this definition of "standard installation".What you > are referring to is a 'standard customisation'. The most effective way of building a standard customisation is to Boot a Live CD, and when you find one you like, clone to HDD. Building a system is a two stage process.. Install OS Customise OS to purpose Embedding the customisation in the installer is a mistake. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 07:11:25PM +, g4sra via Dng wrote: [cut] > > That is my issue, focus has been lost on what an 'Installer' should do. > A great deal is performed at install time that falls into the domain of > package manager'. Standard tools such as dpkg, apt-get, synaptec, > dpkg-reconfigure are not leveraged by the installee as they should be. > o_O You can use debootstrap, amend fstab, add a kernel and a boot-loader and DYI. Or use the standard netinst without running tasksel and skipping the config menus you don't want. It's already there. [cut] > For convenience there is no reason additional but *separate* utilities > could not be made available. Do not omit the simplicity and potential of > a command such as > > apt-get install -y @group But this is exactly what tasksel does, if you want to use it. Which "additional utilities" do you have in mind here, exactly? > > The base installer should be the lowest common denominator of all > installs ranging from a Non-GUI Non-Networked Flash only Embedded Device > to a Cloud Server Node. > The lowest common denominator of all those installs is just the base-system installed via debootstrap, plus a kernel and a bootloader. It contains about 200 packages, has just a shell, a minimal environment (which is not even POSIX-compliant), no network config, no additional modules, no repos set, no l10n, no i18n, and so on. Again, this is still what I use in many situations, but my little experience suggests that the vast majority of the readers of this list would be pretty dissatisfied with this definition of "standard installation". HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On 16/12/2018 12:28, KatolaZ wrote: > On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 07:08:10AM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > [cut] > > > You see: in just two emails we have come from a *minimal* base > installation (a shell with a kernel, a bootloader, and a working > dpkg/apt) to a fully-functioning network server (an ssh server with > configurable keys!) and a working X config. Another three emails and > we get requests for automatic partitioning, automagic disk encryption, > remote shell during install, choice between different mirror > configurations, localisation, choice of meta-packages for typical > use-cases and. > > ...and we end up with something of the same complexity of the current > debian-installer. > > We keep saying we crave for minimalism. But the same concept of > *minimalism* has become quite bloated in the last 20 years :) > That is my issue, focus has been lost on what an 'Installer' should do. A great deal is performed at install time that falls into the domain of package manager'. Standard tools such as dpkg, apt-get, synaptec, dpkg-reconfigure are not leveraged by the installee as they should be. Also restraints fallaciously imposed toward functionality or security (e.g. GUI on a server, or forced creation of a User which must have a password) just get in the way. Without fully knowing the system *and* the end purpose rational judgement calls cannot be made (how many installers on a Raspberry Pi actually use the HWRNG, the quality of which exceeds all but the most expensive of random number devices to generate keys for SSH and the like). For convenience there is no reason additional but *separate* utilities could not be made available. Do not omit the simplicity and potential of a command such as apt-get install -y @group The base installer should be the lowest common denominator of all installs ranging from a Non-GUI Non-Networked Flash only Embedded Device to a Cloud Server Node. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 01:28:43PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 07:08:10AM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > g4sra via Dng wrote: > > > > > > > > > Media partitioning, formatting > > > > > Configure mountpoints > > > > > Install Bootloader > > > > > Install Kernel, Modules & Firmware > > > > > Install Shell & package management software > > > > > Configure console > > > > > Configure network > > > > > Boot > > > > > > > > > > Discuss... > > [cut] > > > > > I'm not sure how minimal your preinstall would be, but what I've found > > difficult in the old days was finding the right device drivers, > > figuring out which packages to install to get them, enough network > > configuration to be able to download them, and, in the *really* old > > days, guessing the monitor geometry I need to get X to work. > > > > It was annoying to have to have to figure these thing out after install > > time whem the installer had already found answers that worked for it. > > > > :D > > You see: in just two emails we have come from a *minimal* base > installation (a shell with a kernel, a bootloader, and a working > dpkg/apt) to a fully-functioning network server (an ssh server with > configurable keys!) and a working X config. Another three emails and > we get requests for automatic partitioning, automagic disk encryption, > remote shell during install, choice between different mirror > configurations, localisation, choice of meta-packages for typical > use-cases and. > > ...and we end up with something of the same complexity of the current > debian-installer. > > We keep saying we crave for minimalism. But the same concept of > *minimalism* has become quite bloated in the last 20 years :) Most of the things I want are already there in the installer itself. Which means, if I could just install the installer ... And X seems to be able to figure out the monitor timings itself nowadays. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 07:08:10AM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: [cut] > > > g4sra via Dng wrote: > > > > > > > Media partitioning, formatting > > > > Configure mountpoints > > > > Install Bootloader > > > > Install Kernel, Modules & Firmware > > > > Install Shell & package management software > > > > Configure console > > > > Configure network > > > > Boot > > > > > > > > Discuss... [cut] > > I'm not sure how minimal your preinstall would be, but what I've found > difficult in the old days was finding the right device drivers, > figuring out which packages to install to get them, enough network > configuration to be able to download them, and, in the *really* old > days, guessing the monitor geometry I need to get X to work. > > It was annoying to have to have to figure these thing out after install > time whem the installer had already found answers that worked for it. > :D You see: in just two emails we have come from a *minimal* base installation (a shell with a kernel, a bootloader, and a working dpkg/apt) to a fully-functioning network server (an ssh server with configurable keys!) and a working X config. Another three emails and we get requests for automatic partitioning, automagic disk encryption, remote shell during install, choice between different mirror configurations, localisation, choice of meta-packages for typical use-cases and. ...and we end up with something of the same complexity of the current debian-installer. We keep saying we crave for minimalism. But the same concept of *minimalism* has become quite bloated in the last 20 years :) HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 11:10:20AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 08:19:31PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Wed, 12 Dec 2018 14:36:45 + > > g4sra via Dng wrote: > > > > > Media partitioning, formatting > > > Configure mountpoints > > > Install Bootloader > > > Install Kernel, Modules & Firmware > > > Install Shell & package management software > > > Configure console > > > Configure network > > > Boot > > > > > > Discuss... > > > > Above all else, query the user for his/her preferences, and coach the > > user while making such decisions. Such decisions serve as input to your > > list, which seems quite complete to me. > > I would be quite happy to write from scratch an installer that does > *exactly what is reported in that list* and nothing more. I mean, > something that just *installs the base system and a boot loader and > reboots you to the login prompt*. > > However, I am pretty sure that 99.9% of the Devuaners would probably > find the result quite uncomfortable, inconvenient, skinny, and overly > archaic. The main reason being that they (we) are used to perform part > of the system configuration *at install time*, and we just don't > realise how many other different things are done by d-i under the > hood. I'm not sure how minimal your preinstall would be, but what I've found difficult in the old days was finding the right device drivers, figuring out which packages to install to get them, enough network configuration to be able to download them, and, in the *really* old days, guessing the monitor geometry I need to get X to work. It was annoying to have to have to figure these thing out after install time whem the installer had already found answers that worked for it. If these things are taken care of, I'd be happy with that. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 11:10:20 +0100, KatolaZ wrote in message <20181216101020.h6zmiomznqqpm...@katolaz.homeunix.net>: > On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 08:19:31PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Wed, 12 Dec 2018 14:36:45 + > > g4sra via Dng wrote: > > > > > Media partitioning, formatting > > > Configure mountpoints > > > Install Bootloader > > > Install Kernel, Modules & Firmware > > > Install Shell & package management software > > > Configure console > > > Configure network > > > Boot > > > > > > Discuss... > > > > Above all else, query the user for his/her preferences, and coach > > the user while making such decisions. Such decisions serve as input > > to your list, which seems quite complete to me. > > I would be quite happy to write from scratch an installer that does > *exactly what is reported in that list* and nothing more. I mean, > something that just *installs the base system and a boot loader and ...a ssh server and then... > reboots you to the login prompt*. ...would be perfect. ..maybe have the installer fire up a ssh server if we tell it to with e.g. " --ssh --ssh-keys-from-boot-server"? I find ssh is handy while installing, even on the few boxes I set up without ssh servers years ago. > However, I am pretty sure that 99.9% of the Devuaners would probably > find the result quite uncomfortable, inconvenient, skinny, and overly > archaic. The main reason being that they (we) are used to perform part > of the system configuration *at install time*, and we just don't > realise how many other different things are done by d-i under the > hood. > > I am not debating on whether this is good or bad (I personally found > d-i a great leap forward, when it was first made available in Sarge). > I am just saying that no installer in any major distro since Anaconda > has done just that. Perhaps the only remaining one is the Void > installer, which I am again pretty sure 95% of the readers here will > consider "antiquate". > > Be careful of what you wish: your wishes could become true... :) > > > > > You know what would really be fun? An installer that asks *all* of > > the necessary questions right at the front, so you can walk away > > and do something else while it installs itself. I find installers > > that keep asking me questions every 10 minutes annoying. > > > > You can use preseeding for that. And you are not asked any question at > all. > > HND > > KatolaZ > -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 08:19:31PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > On Wed, 12 Dec 2018 14:36:45 + > g4sra via Dng wrote: > > > Media partitioning, formatting > > Configure mountpoints > > Install Bootloader > > Install Kernel, Modules & Firmware > > Install Shell & package management software > > Configure console > > Configure network > > Boot > > > > Discuss... > > Above all else, query the user for his/her preferences, and coach the > user while making such decisions. Such decisions serve as input to your > list, which seems quite complete to me. I would be quite happy to write from scratch an installer that does *exactly what is reported in that list* and nothing more. I mean, something that just *installs the base system and a boot loader and reboots you to the login prompt*. However, I am pretty sure that 99.9% of the Devuaners would probably find the result quite uncomfortable, inconvenient, skinny, and overly archaic. The main reason being that they (we) are used to perform part of the system configuration *at install time*, and we just don't realise how many other different things are done by d-i under the hood. I am not debating on whether this is good or bad (I personally found d-i a great leap forward, when it was first made available in Sarge). I am just saying that no installer in any major distro since Anaconda has done just that. Perhaps the only remaining one is the Void installer, which I am again pretty sure 95% of the readers here will consider "antiquate". Be careful of what you wish: your wishes could become true... :) > > You know what would really be fun? An installer that asks *all* of the > necessary questions right at the front, so you can walk away and do > something else while it installs itself. I find installers that keep > asking me questions every 10 minutes annoying. > You can use preseeding for that. And you are not asked any question at all. HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 17:29:21 -0800, Rick wrote in message <20181216012921.ga24...@linuxmafia.com>: > Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > > > You know what would really be fun? An installer that asks *all* of > > the necessary questions right at the front, so you can walk away > > and do something else while it installs itself. > > https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Preseed > > As the page says, start with a known good, default preseed file, such > as the one linked to. ..I prefer using ssh on my installs, can also be preseeded, and since that invites messing around with installer boot menus, you might as well set up your preferences as the installer's default boot and let it install whatever you want installed, e.g. automagically: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Preseed#Autoloading_the_preseeding_file_from_a_webserver_via_DHCP -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On 2018-12-15 19:19, Steve Litt wrote: On Wed, 12 Dec 2018 14:36:45 + g4sra via Dng wrote: Media partitioning, formatting Configure mountpoints Install Bootloader Install Kernel, Modules & Firmware Install Shell & package management software Configure console Configure network Boot Discuss... Above all else, query the user for his/her preferences, and coach the user while making such decisions. Such decisions serve as input to your list, which seems quite complete to me. You know what would really be fun? An installer that asks *all* of the necessary questions right at the front, so you can walk away and do something else while it installs itself. I find installers that keep asking me questions every 10 minutes annoying. That is way beyond what the users we are targeting need. We just want to get them up and running with a graphical DE. Besides, information already exists in pages accessed from a README.html on the disks that use the debian-installer if anyone cares to look. I should know because I was part of the team that got that together for ASCII. And of course there are dev1fanboy's wiki pages. To me, the problem seems not to be lack of information but lack of RTFM to which too many users today seem allergic. golinux SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > You know what would really be fun? An installer that asks *all* of the > necessary questions right at the front, so you can walk away and do > something else while it installs itself. https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Preseed As the page says, start with a known good, default preseed file, such as the one linked to. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On Wed, 12 Dec 2018 14:36:45 + g4sra via Dng wrote: > Media partitioning, formatting > Configure mountpoints > Install Bootloader > Install Kernel, Modules & Firmware > Install Shell & package management software > Configure console > Configure network > Boot > > Discuss... Above all else, query the user for his/her preferences, and coach the user while making such decisions. Such decisions serve as input to your list, which seems quite complete to me. You know what would really be fun? An installer that asks *all* of the necessary questions right at the front, so you can walk away and do something else while it installs itself. I find installers that keep asking me questions every 10 minutes annoying. SteveT Steve Litt December 2018 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
