Re: [dwm] Issues with border
> Seems I'm one of the few that prefers the no-border option. Bah, not sure on the ... "few" ... "that prefers." > if it does change, please do leave it optional. Optional please, yes. /Roy Lanek (West Sumatra) -- ,, # , (@@ @P # @#@@@ L, ,, ,,,7F ,LL ,,,,,, ,L , LLL ,, ,L,# #@&#@ *...@###@ ###@(* ##*"*#,'#...@###, ""#...@##f#w"7@ # "@@ @ 7E #" "(F 7@ @ #L@ #F @ #" F ,,# @## #L @ @@ #(F # @ #L@ ## #@ #WW B @ @ #@ #L,,@@ #L" ,# 7L@ ,#" 7@, ,@ ##@@L # 7...@#*"##*@@@ *...@m @@@@@E @@@"#L###" 7##W#@ #@,,@+ # #@ #...@l #"#* # #MM Slackware Linux MM
Re: [dwm] Issues with border
I also like the no-border behavior from a clarity point of view. My situation is similar to Julio's in that I also use a very bright color for the focused border and a very dark gray for the unfocused border. This makes it quick and easy to see when a client has focus. When there is only one client in view, however, the bright orange border looks awkward and unnecessary around that single client. There is also the case with low-resolution screens. When I'm using dwm on a small screen I tend to use monocle alone since tiling doesn't always give enough space for several clients. When monocle is active I prefer not to see a border. I suppose a custom function in config.h could be used if this feature is removed. On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Julio Missao wrote: > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 10:41:04AM -0800, David E. Thiel wrote: >> On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 01:34:48PM +, Anselm R Garbe wrote: >> > And then define a key binding for it. >> > >> > Opinions? >> >> Seems I'm one of the few that prefers the no-border option. If there >> aren't any other clients on the screen, I don't see a need to indicate >> focus. And it looks quite nicely minimal, especially on small screens >> like the Eee. So, if it does change, please do leave it optional. >> >> Thanks, >> David >> > > I also prefer having no borders when there's one client in a tag. It > feels kinda weird having a red border (the color in my setup), but I > wouldn't mind patching it as suggested, should this feature be removed. > > >
[dwm] [OT] Wheel designs
I find your current discussion very relevant to what I'm doing with dio[1] now. It would really be great to share ideas and, eventually, join efforts. I will try to explain the different ideas I had with dio development, it's a long history. This is what I have now: The main idea behind dio was a very simple player of items which could be used for music and video. I took dmenu and extensively modified it to display items in scrollable windows and manage button events, depending on the command line options different actions are done when items are clicked, added, etc. Several bash scripts run dio in different ways: The player reads its items from stdin, displays them and launch child proccess to actually play the file. A directory browser is done redirecting ls output to dio stdin and relaunching itself when directories are selected. It is convenient to add files to the player. Keyboard input was already supported from dmenu, it allows to search for items. Giving the option to redirect this input to stdout added the possibility to turn dio into a very basic terminal emulator. I never implemented a ptty or anything, it just redirected a shell stdin/out, but it was pretty usable with simple programs like dc or sic. Smaller applications like the calendar or terminal history were straightforward. In its current state, dio has been a test bed for ui ideas, but its implementation lacks any kind of design, it just came up like this. In particular, the idea of turning command line arguments into a new language sounded like some kind of aberration to me. So, I started to think in how to rewrite dio from scratch. The most difficult decission is where you want to put the line of what it will do and what you will leave to the applications. I thought in several possibilities: 1. Make dio simpler, so that it just displays input and sends output (events are sent as output too). In some way, this is in the path of what Matthias is proposing. All the logic of the player, for example, would be done by external programs and would tell dio that how to represent the list. The problem here is that you would have to kept two different lists of items, and process management can be tricky. Some kind of language for communication would be needed. All the simplicity would be gone. 2. Turn dio into a library and have different applications (which make use of popen()) instead of scripts. It has the advantage you don't need any new language. It could even be the right approach, in fact the biggest problem I found with it was that libgt seemed to me like something similar from the few informantion we have and I was waiting to se what it exactly was. 3. Develope a small language similar to awk (a subset of) and add to it special "patterns" and fields to manage events and make some formating (bg color, fg color and maybe bold font, no more) and turn dio into an interpreter. I don't have any strong fundation to suggest this, new languages should be added only when they are really needed, but I have been looking at yacc and lex documentation these last days and, dude, it would be so funny... 4. Rewrite everything in the acme way. The idea to give dio more text editing capabilities crosses my mind from time to time. acme is almost perfect as an user interface for me, but it is an user interface for programmers and when it comes to play music for example and all those "desktop tasks" it just isn't the right tool. I have grasped the code and I have to admit is too much for me, although it is a great way to learn I'm not the right person to improve Pike's work, it is out of my possibilities. I started to rewrite dio from scatch and what I have now is a small program that displays its stdin in a scrollable window and prints to stdout the clicked items on the form "Button3 Item 1". Just that, no more, but everything can be done from there. As you see, this is a total rambling, but I really think we could have something here, your ideas also look very interesting to me, and every comment will be appreciated. Nacht, [1] http://code.google.com/p/dynamic-io/ -- - yiyus || JGL .
[dwm] Flexible rules
Hi all,
I think it could be useful to incorporate the following to dwm, in
order to achieve more customized rule conditions and actions in the
cases it's needed without compromising the rest.
typedef void (RuleAction)(Client *c, XClassHint* ch);
typedef struct {
.
RuleAction *action;
} Rule;
void
applyrules(Client *c) {
.
for(i = 0; i < LENGTH(rules); i++) {
if (r->action) r->action(c, &ch);
}
One motivation for this change is that I like neither having all
firefox windows floating nor all of them tiled: for javascript popups
and browser dialogs I prefer floats, while for main navigator windows
I prefer to have them maximised in monocle layout or tiled. There is
no way to tell javascript popups and main navigator windows apart:
they share the same class and name, and the title is related to the
browser contents (and it's initialized after manage() is called
anyway, from the tag). The only more or less reliable way to
identify popups windows I can figure out is to check that their
initial requested size is considerably smaller than my screen size;
this works pretty well, in fact. So, using the above, my config.h
would look like:
void
firefoxPopupRule(Client *c, XClassHint *ch) {
XWindowAttributes wa;
XGetWindowAttributes(dpy, c->win, &wa);
if (wa.height > 1000 && wa.width > 1000) {
c->isfloating = False;
}
}
static Rule rules[] = {
/* class instancetitle tags mask
isfloating extraaction */
{ "Gran Paradiso", NULL, NULL, 0,
True,NULL },
{ "Gran Paradiso", "Navigator",NULL, 0,
True,firefoxPopupRule },
};
I'll be glad to hear what you have to say regarding this.
Regards
-Carlos
Re: [dwm] [OT] Personal Website and CSS
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 01:05:36PM -0700, Jack Woehr wrote: > Matthias-Christian Ott wrote: >> What I really like about it is that rendered documents (which used to >> be PostScript or PDF) are now the same as ordinary applications except >> that applications handle input and may modify their window contents. >> > NeWS sort of worked that way, except its virtual machine was, > of course, PostScript. NeWS got beat out by XWindows. Not really, it used a PostScript dialect which included OOP, events, arithmetic etc. Regards, Matthias-Christian
Re: [dwm] [OT] Personal Website and CSS
Matthias-Christian Ott wrote: What I really like about it is that rendered documents (which used to be PostScript or PDF) are now the same as ordinary applications except that applications handle input and may modify their window contents. NeWS sort of worked that way, except its virtual machine was, of course, PostScript. NeWS got beat out by XWindows. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeWS -- Jack J. Woehr# I run for public office from time to time. It's like http://www.well.com/~jax # working out at the gym, you sweat a lot, don't get http://www.softwoehr.com # anywhere, and you fall asleep easily afterwards.
Re: [dwm] Issues with border
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 10:41:04AM -0800, David E. Thiel wrote: > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 01:34:48PM +, Anselm R Garbe wrote: > > And then define a key binding for it. > > > > Opinions? > > Seems I'm one of the few that prefers the no-border option. If there > aren't any other clients on the screen, I don't see a need to indicate > focus. And it looks quite nicely minimal, especially on small screens > like the Eee. So, if it does change, please do leave it optional. > > Thanks, > David > I also prefer having no borders when there's one client in a tag. It feels kinda weird having a red border (the color in my setup), but I wouldn't mind patching it as suggested, should this feature be removed.
Re: [dwm] [OT] Personal Website and CSS
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 11:56:43AM -0700, Jack Woehr wrote: > Matthias-Christian Ott wrote: >> I would really like to throw away X11. So that you have a universal >> hardware-implementable rendering language and system (buffer management >> etc.) and an event layer on top of it. So if you want to browse a >> hyperlinked document you compile it to the rendering language and run >> an event manager, which handles things like scrolling, on top of it. So >> you have a data pipe (model), renderer/compiler (view) and event manager >> (controller). >> > If you are willing to accept Javascript as your universal rendering > language > and the web browser as its implementation, GWT though it needs much more > engineering over the next year or two is actually pretty good. As mentioned in another E-Mail I want to have a graphics processor (which can be also software implemented) which is a register machine with a stack for contexts. Programms for it would look like this: mv x,y; move to (x;y) st %c,#11 ; set color to #11 pt x,y; set point at (x;y) pt x,y rd; render st %b, 2 ; load buffer 0 So you have multiple drawable buffers that you can stack and map. It's much like cairo or PostScript, but fully network transparent. On top of this runs a programme that manages the screen (does input redirection, talks to applications which want to run on screen) and a window manager which arranges the windows. Applications run now on any computer (since it's network transparent via something like 9p) and communicate with the graphics processor and the screen manager. It's basically combining Plan 9 with X11. Except that X11 is not a big monolithic system anymore. So you can compile your nroff document to assembly language for the graphics processor and simply display it. It's basically a simple version of PostScript without scripting capabilities. In MVC terms you could consider the application, which is itself subdivided, to be the model, the screen manager to be the controller and the graphics processor the view, if this helps understanding. I don't know how well this would work, but when trying to design a nroff replacement I thought about the graphics processor as a simple replacement for PostScript and PDF and later added this idea about the screen manager. What I really like about it is that rendered documents (which used to be PostScript or PDF) are now the same as ordinary applications except that applications handle input and may modify their window contents. Additionally this enables you simply pipe data into a compiler and render it to a screen or a bitmap. Regards, Matthias-Christian
Re: [dwm] Issues with border
A patch to remove adjustborder is attached.
2009/2/19, David E. Thiel :
> On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 01:34:48PM +, Anselm R Garbe wrote:
> > And then define a key binding for it.
> >
> > Opinions?
>
>
> Seems I'm one of the few that prefers the no-border option. If there
> aren't any other clients on the screen, I don't see a need to indicate
> focus. And it looks quite nicely minimal, especially on small screens
> like the Eee. So, if it does change, please do leave it optional.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
>
>
--
http://www.gnuffy.org - Real Community Distro
http://www.gnuffy.org/index.php/GnuEm - Gnuffy on Ipaq (Codename Peggy)
diff -r a98f0e8ea6cb dwm.c
--- a/dwm.c Sat Feb 14 11:21:24 2009 +
+++ b/dwm.c Thu Feb 19 20:32:45 2009 +0100
@@ -128,7 +128,6 @@
} Rule;
/* function declarations */
-static void adjustborder(Client *c, unsigned int bw);
static void applyrules(Client *c);
static void arrange(void);
static void attach(Client *c);
@@ -246,16 +245,6 @@
/* function implementations */
void
-adjustborder(Client *c, unsigned int bw) {
- XWindowChanges wc;
-
- if(c->bw != bw) {
- c->bw = wc.border_width = bw;
- XConfigureWindow(dpy, c->win, CWBorderWidth, &wc);
- }
-}
-
-void
applyrules(Client *c) {
unsigned int i;
Rule *r;
@@ -939,12 +928,9 @@
void
monocle(void) {
- unsigned int n;
Client *c;
- for(n = 0, c = nexttiled(clients); c && n < 2; c = nexttiled(c->next),
n++);
for(c = nexttiled(clients); c; c = nexttiled(c->next)) {
- adjustborder(c, n == 1 ? 0 : borderpx);
resize(c, wx, wy, ww - 2 * c->bw, wh - 2 * c->bw, resizehints);
}
}
@@ -1349,8 +1335,6 @@
if(!c)
return;
if(ISVISIBLE(c)) { /* show clients top down */
- if(c->isfloating || ntiled > 1) /* avoid unnecessary border
reverts */
- adjustborder(c, borderpx);
XMoveWindow(dpy, c->win, c->x, c->y);
if(!lt[sellt]->arrange || c->isfloating)
resize(c, c->x, c->y, c->w, c->h, True);
@@ -1414,7 +1398,6 @@
/* master */
c = nexttiled(clients);
mw = mfact * ww;
- adjustborder(c, n == 1 ? 0 : borderpx);
resize(c, wx, wy, (n == 1 ? ww : mw) - 2 * c->bw, wh - 2 * c->bw,
resizehints);
if(--n == 0)
@@ -1429,7 +1412,6 @@
h = wh;
for(i = 0, c = nexttiled(c->next); c; c = nexttiled(c->next), i++) {
- adjustborder(c, borderpx);
resize(c, x, y, w - 2 * c->bw, /* remainder */ ((i + 1 == n)
? wy + wh - y - 2 * c->bw : h - 2 * c->bw), resizehints);
if(h != wh)
@@ -1713,7 +1695,7 @@
die("usage: dwm [-v]\n");
if(!setlocale(LC_CTYPE, "") || !XSupportsLocale())
- fprintf(stderr, "warning: no locale support\n");
+ fputs("warning: no locale support\n", stderr);
if(!(dpy = XOpenDisplay(0)))
die("dwm: cannot open display\n");
Re: [dwm] [OT] Personal Website and CSS
Matthias-Christian Ott wrote: I would really like to throw away X11. So that you have a universal hardware-implementable rendering language and system (buffer management etc.) and an event layer on top of it. So if you want to browse a hyperlinked document you compile it to the rendering language and run an event manager, which handles things like scrolling, on top of it. So you have a data pipe (model), renderer/compiler (view) and event manager (controller). If you are willing to accept Javascript as your universal rendering language and the web browser as its implementation, GWT though it needs much more engineering over the next year or two is actually pretty good. -- Jack J. Woehr# I run for public office from time to time. It's like http://www.well.com/~jax # working out at the gym, you sweat a lot, don't get http://www.softwoehr.com # anywhere, and you fall asleep easily afterwards.
Re: [dwm] [OT] Personal Website and CSS
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 02:19:24PM +, Anselm R Garbe wrote: > 2009/2/19 Matthias-Christian Ott : > > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 12:07:16AM +0100, hiro wrote: > >> > I think the only way is dropping HTML and CSS altogether and going > >> > with something new. I'd be very interested in contributing. I think > >> > the replacement should not only focus on presentation but equally on > >> > forming a base for less suckish applications which are highly network > >> > transparent. > >> > > >> > Kind regards, > >> > --Anselm > >> > >> Not sure if OP really wanted to do this, but such alternatives have > >> always existed. Look at gopher for example. > >> > >> I would export 9p filetrees and mount them in acme. You can use text > >> files and plumbing if you want hyperlinks. > >> I very much enjoy reading 9fans that way. > >> > >> But I admit this not being beauty typesetting. > >> > >> > browsers like Mozilla Firefox have terrible default typographic style > >> > and using text-mode browsers like links often seems to be only solution > >> > when reading longer texts. > >> > >> I don't really get this: Where can we find real typographic style in links? > > > > There's actually none, but it's better to display the text in a fixed-font > > uniform size than in misproportioned text with unsuitable spacing. > > > >> Perhaps we need a combination of Troff's beauty and web browser's dynamics. > > > > What do you mean by dynamic? AJAX? I suppose you mean hyperlinks. > > Well, here is what I realized during the st development and which > emerged into some text (g)ui library which can be seen as graphical > curses at some point and which I'm going to consider forming the base > of replacing HTML+CSS and vt100 and curses and all that stuff (and > which I'm afraid to publish in its current flaky and unfinished state > still but I need to do so anyways sooner or later). I'm eagerly awaiting libgt to write an E-Mail client or text editor. > Apart from presenting information (which can be done in a > terminal-like sense, and a browser is a terminal to some extend) which > used to be HTML in the past, it is very obvious that there is the > demand for so called "web applications" which run as hybrids remotely > and locally and which are simply loaded (instead of physically > installed) on every access time again and again... They can access > local and remote resources in a kind of transparent way and provide > services -- even if it's just about reading a bolg article. Well, you could simply run a remote file server and let your local applications use it (9p is quite suiteable for this). Usually you install your software on your computer and don't load it everytime you use from a remote server, so I don't see the need for web applications. Richard Stallman summed it up quite good [1]. Additionally it's a performance loose and I guess the carbon footprint of such web applications is significantly higher. > There are 3 layers in such an approach: > > - resource access > - resource > - scripting What you propose is the following: data filtering/ manipulation rendering displaying /--^-\ /---^---\ /^\ +-+ ++ ++ +-+ | res | <--> | server | <--> | client | <--> | X11 | +-+ ++ ++ +-+ \--v--/ \-v-/ remoteresource resourceaccess Basically it's a pipe where serveral intermediate data formats are used. > The resource access should be done using a stateful protocol rather than HTTP. > > The resource itself isthe content (could be something that replaces > HTML+CSS+JS and provide extensions such as map() for mapping contents > rendered by server- or client-side code and extensions for scripting). I think the server should only store the data and do no rendering at all. > The scripting layer is also an extension with access to the server and > client environment (not necessarily bound to the resource only). One > can compare it to JS -- though I doubt the DOM-based approach of how > web pages are scriptable nowadays is right. > > In the case of a terminal, the resource is a tty session, the resource > access is the connection to it and the scripting are the commands send > back and forth (which are not restricted to the resource itself, which > could be a shell process, but which could be control sequences as well > (server- and client environment access). > > So if you consider the modern Web as consisting of terminal servers > providing content then we get closer to the idea. I think designing > the HTML+CSS replacement must go hand in hand with the underlying > protocol. Why should server store interactive applications? We should design a text description language (without different appearance for everyone) and simply render it. We already have network transparent user interfaces and file systems. I would really like to throw away
Re: [dwm] Issues with border
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 01:34:48PM +, Anselm R Garbe wrote: > And then define a key binding for it. > > Opinions? Seems I'm one of the few that prefers the no-border option. If there aren't any other clients on the screen, I don't see a need to indicate focus. And it looks quite nicely minimal, especially on small screens like the Eee. So, if it does change, please do leave it optional. Thanks, David
Re: [dwm] Issues with border
On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:53:41 +0100
Antoni Grzymala wrote:
> Anselm R Garbe dixit (2009-02-19, 13:34):
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I dislike the recent addition of the 0 border if only 1 tiled client
> > is in the view, reasons:
> >
> > - gained screen real eastate is very minimal
> > - configure events are increased by n at any view() and
> > toggleview(), if n is the number of clients in the view
> > - corner cases for togglefloating()
> > - I dislike adjustborder() altogether
> >
> > So my proposal is: reverting to old behavior (nonoborder), and for
> > those who like it, use a config.h function like:
> >
> > void toggleborder(const Arg *arg) {
> >borderpx = 1 - borderpx;
> >arrange();
> > }
> >
> > And then define a key binding for it.
> >
> > Opinions?
>
> Agreed. Seems more consistent and elegant. Still, perhaps we can
> rethink the concept of some visual indication if there's more than
> one client in monocle (some kind sould posted a patch showing
> [/] next to the tag bar in monocle mode, perhaps this
> (or something similar) could be integrated right into the monocle
> indicator).
>
> Best,
>
There's already a patch for that. It's in the patches section of the
wiki.
--
-BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
Version: 3.12
GCS d- s+:+ a--- C++ UL--- P+ L++
E--- W++ N+ o-- K--- w-- O- M V-
PS++ PE-- Y+ PGP+++ t- 5- X R tv+
b+++ DI+ D++ G e+++ h-- r y+
--END GEEK CODE BLOCK--
Re: [dwm] Issues with border
I agree too. The shimmy going from a one-client tag to a multi-client tag
and back again is very distracting.
Jeremy
On Thu 19 Feb 2009 - 02:57PM, Premysl Hruby wrote:
> On (19/02/09 13:34), Anselm R Garbe wrote:
> > To: dwm mail list
> > From: Anselm R Garbe
> > Subject: [dwm] Issues with border
> > Reply-To: dwm mail list
> > List-Id: dwm mail list
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I dislike the recent addition of the 0 border if only 1 tiled client
> > is in the view, reasons:
> >
> > - gained screen real eastate is very minimal
> > - configure events are increased by n at any view() and toggleview(),
> > if n is the number of clients in the view
> > - corner cases for togglefloating()
> > - I dislike adjustborder() altogether
> >
> > So my proposal is: reverting to old behavior (nonoborder), and for
> > those who like it, use a config.h function like:
> >
> > void toggleborder(const Arg *arg) {
> >borderpx = 1 - borderpx;
> >arrange();
> > }
> >
> > And then define a key binding for it.
> >
> > Opinions?
> >
> > Kind regards,
> > --Anselm
> >
>
> I'm pro too, as I really dislike the noborder.
>
> -Ph
>
> --
> Premysl "Anydot" Hruby, http://www.redrum.cz/
>
Re: [dwm] [OT] Personal Website and CSS
2009/2/19 Matthias-Christian Ott : > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 12:07:16AM +0100, hiro wrote: >> > I think the only way is dropping HTML and CSS altogether and going >> > with something new. I'd be very interested in contributing. I think >> > the replacement should not only focus on presentation but equally on >> > forming a base for less suckish applications which are highly network >> > transparent. >> > >> > Kind regards, >> > --Anselm >> >> Not sure if OP really wanted to do this, but such alternatives have >> always existed. Look at gopher for example. >> >> I would export 9p filetrees and mount them in acme. You can use text >> files and plumbing if you want hyperlinks. >> I very much enjoy reading 9fans that way. >> >> But I admit this not being beauty typesetting. >> >> > browsers like Mozilla Firefox have terrible default typographic style >> > and using text-mode browsers like links often seems to be only solution >> > when reading longer texts. >> >> I don't really get this: Where can we find real typographic style in links? > > There's actually none, but it's better to display the text in a fixed-font > uniform size than in misproportioned text with unsuitable spacing. > >> Perhaps we need a combination of Troff's beauty and web browser's dynamics. > > What do you mean by dynamic? AJAX? I suppose you mean hyperlinks. Well, here is what I realized during the st development and which emerged into some text (g)ui library which can be seen as graphical curses at some point and which I'm going to consider forming the base of replacing HTML+CSS and vt100 and curses and all that stuff (and which I'm afraid to publish in its current flaky and unfinished state still but I need to do so anyways sooner or later). Apart from presenting information (which can be done in a terminal-like sense, and a browser is a terminal to some extend) which used to be HTML in the past, it is very obvious that there is the demand for so called "web applications" which run as hybrids remotely and locally and which are simply loaded (instead of physically installed) on every access time again and again... They can access local and remote resources in a kind of transparent way and provide services -- even if it's just about reading a bolg article. There are 3 layers in such an approach: - resource access - resource - scripting The resource access should be done using a stateful protocol rather than HTTP. The resource itself isthe content (could be something that replaces HTML+CSS+JS and provide extensions such as map() for mapping contents rendered by server- or client-side code and extensions for scripting). The scripting layer is also an extension with access to the server and client environment (not necessarily bound to the resource only). One can compare it to JS -- though I doubt the DOM-based approach of how web pages are scriptable nowadays is right. In the case of a terminal, the resource is a tty session, the resource access is the connection to it and the scripting are the commands send back and forth (which are not restricted to the resource itself, which could be a shell process, but which could be control sequences as well (server- and client environment access). So if you consider the modern Web as consisting of terminal servers providing content then we get closer to the idea. I think designing the HTML+CSS replacement must go hand in hand with the underlying protocol. Kind regards, --Anselm
Re: [dwm] [OT] Personal Website and CSS
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 08:51:52AM +0100, Szabolcs Nagy wrote: > On 2/18/09, Matthias-Christian Ott wrote: > > minimalism. What annoyed me then and now was CSS and its implementations > > in modern browsers. > > css cannot be implemented (..in a suckless way) > > > there seems to be no agreed standard for a default CSS stylesheet merely a > > recommendation from the CSS standard [1] (which is incomplete) and a lot > > of people seem to be concerned about resetting the browser CSS defaults - > > even the W3C does so in their stylesheets [2]. Most people seems to have > > installed nearly all popular browsers, test with those and incorporate > > workarounds if necessary. > > don't try to fix the browser, you can't I know. > it leads to a chaos where each website has different versions for each > browser, display media, resolution,.. On my 15.4" WXSGA+ display browsing some sites is really a pain, because the use font sizes measured in pixel and limit their content to 500px or so. > there is no way to do "nice in all browsers" page (or pixel correct > presentation) > (flash is obviously not an option since it's not (and cannot be) > supported by most browsers) Flash is proprietary software and therefore not even worth thinking about. > interactivity has the same issues (no way to do it properly) > > > At the moment I'm just aware of The Anti-web Manifesto [3] that someone > > linked to on this mailing list. Although I mainly subscribe to it, > > http://port70.net/webless suggests a least common denominator > imho this is the most sane approach currently (although limited in many ways) Yes, but have you tried to read a long text (I tend to be verbose) in Mozilla Firefox? > > browsers like Mozilla Firefox have terrible default typographic style > > the user is responsible for changing the default style (or using a sane > browser) Theoretically I agree, but how many users do so? Additionally I don't want to know what happens if you change your stylesheet and view other CSS-styled websites (it will probably break the layout I suppose). Regards, Matthias-Christian
Re: [dwm] [OT] Personal Website and CSS
Good day. Anselm R Garbe schrieb: 2009/2/18 Matthias-Christian Ott : Any ideas? I think the only way is dropping HTML and CSS altogether and going with something new. I'd be very interested in contributing. I think the replacement should not only focus on presentation but equally on forming a base for less suckish applications which are highly network transparent. I'm proposing Dbus for the HTTP replacement and UPnP as a re- placement for DNS. But that's for the easy migration. The end goal should be to use the WS-* standards, because these are made for the people [0] and not just for machines. All hail to the people! Sincerely, Christoph Lohmann [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BPEL4People
Re: [dwm] slock - message over black screen
Delta wrote: Hi list, Hey. Does someone know an easy way to make slock print a message (like "I am on a meeting" or "I'll be back at 17:00") over its black screen? I think nobody talk about this in the list and it seems to me that it would be a good functionality. Well, I did exactly this 2 years ago but as I don't use slock any more I never cared to update that patch to the current version. Anyways, you can find a version including that feature (and also echoing '*' on password input) here: http://gotmor.googlepages.com/slock.tar.bz2 Should be relatively easy to adapt to the current version Regards, Delt Bye, Rob.
Re: [dwm] Issues with border
On (19/02/09 13:34), Anselm R Garbe wrote:
> To: dwm mail list
> From: Anselm R Garbe
> Subject: [dwm] Issues with border
> Reply-To: dwm mail list
> List-Id: dwm mail list
>
> Hi,
>
> I dislike the recent addition of the 0 border if only 1 tiled client
> is in the view, reasons:
>
> - gained screen real eastate is very minimal
> - configure events are increased by n at any view() and toggleview(),
> if n is the number of clients in the view
> - corner cases for togglefloating()
> - I dislike adjustborder() altogether
>
> So my proposal is: reverting to old behavior (nonoborder), and for
> those who like it, use a config.h function like:
>
> void toggleborder(const Arg *arg) {
>borderpx = 1 - borderpx;
>arrange();
> }
>
> And then define a key binding for it.
>
> Opinions?
>
> Kind regards,
> --Anselm
>
I'm pro too, as I really dislike the noborder.
-Ph
--
Premysl "Anydot" Hruby, http://www.redrum.cz/
Re: [dwm] [OT] Personal Website and CSS
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 12:07:16AM +0100, hiro wrote: > > I think the only way is dropping HTML and CSS altogether and going > > with something new. I'd be very interested in contributing. I think > > the replacement should not only focus on presentation but equally on > > forming a base for less suckish applications which are highly network > > transparent. > > > > Kind regards, > > --Anselm > > > > > > Not sure if OP really wanted to do this, but such alternatives have > always existed. Look at gopher for example. > > I would export 9p filetrees and mount them in acme. You can use text > files and plumbing if you want hyperlinks. > I very much enjoy reading 9fans that way. > > But I admit this not being beauty typesetting. > > > browsers like Mozilla Firefox have terrible default typographic style > > and using text-mode browsers like links often seems to be only solution > > when reading longer texts. > > I don't really get this: Where can we find real typographic style in links? There's actually none, but it's better to display the text in a fixed-font uniform size than in misproportioned text with unsuitable spacing. > Perhaps we need a combination of Troff's beauty and web browser's dynamics. What do you mean by dynamic? AJAX? I suppose you mean hyperlinks. Regards, Matthias-Christian
Re: [dwm] Issues with border
Anselm R Garbe dixit (2009-02-19, 13:34):
> Hi,
>
> I dislike the recent addition of the 0 border if only 1 tiled client
> is in the view, reasons:
>
> - gained screen real eastate is very minimal
> - configure events are increased by n at any view() and toggleview(),
> if n is the number of clients in the view
> - corner cases for togglefloating()
> - I dislike adjustborder() altogether
>
> So my proposal is: reverting to old behavior (nonoborder), and for
> those who like it, use a config.h function like:
>
> void toggleborder(const Arg *arg) {
>borderpx = 1 - borderpx;
>arrange();
> }
>
> And then define a key binding for it.
>
> Opinions?
Agreed. Seems more consistent and elegant. Still, perhaps we can rethink
the concept of some visual indication if there's more than one client in
monocle (some kind sould posted a patch showing [/] next
to the tag bar in monocle mode, perhaps this (or something similar)
could be integrated right into the monocle indicator).
Best,
--
[a]
signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
Re: [dwm] [OT] Personal Website and CSS
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 04:59:06PM -0600, Kurt H Maier wrote: > In my estimation, the web is a lost cause. As time goes on, it's more > and more a tool that is abused by idiots cramming too much broken > "functionality" in them, and most browsers are just platforms from > which to launch bad ideas. The whole thing was never designed for > fine-grained control of how a website was rendered, and you're asking > for a lot of heartache by attempting to make it work that way. Well, I realised that too, but somehow felt the need for communicating these ideas to other people (most people will just believe in something, if it's repeated often enough). I don't want fine-grained control, but to make a website somewhat typographically useable, you need to set the paddings and margins so that they fit thogether with the text. Therefore you have to clear a lot of the default stylesheet definitions. That seems insane to me. > On my website[1], I use very basic html, and include a stylesheet > basically to set colors I like and a maximum width for the main body > of the text. I also use CSS to move some of the navigation stuff off > to the side, but other than that, it's up to the reader to configure > his browser to make things presentable. The more I think about this topic the more I think I will simply test my stylesheet in Firefox, links, dillo and netsurf. I will actually write an essay on the problems I had developing the site, although I think this won't make the Internet better. > 1 - http://www.madleet.net/cgi-bin/blog.sh $ curl http://madleet.net/blog.css 2> /dev/null | wc -l 24 Very minimalistic. > # Kurt H Maier Regards, Matthias-Christian
Re: [dwm] Issues with border
fullack.
2009/2/19, Anselm R Garbe :
> Hi,
>
> I dislike the recent addition of the 0 border if only 1 tiled client
> is in the view, reasons:
>
> - gained screen real eastate is very minimal
> - configure events are increased by n at any view() and toggleview(),
> if n is the number of clients in the view
> - corner cases for togglefloating()
> - I dislike adjustborder() altogether
>
> So my proposal is: reverting to old behavior (nonoborder), and for
> those who like it, use a config.h function like:
>
> void toggleborder(const Arg *arg) {
>borderpx = 1 - borderpx;
>arrange();
> }
>
> And then define a key binding for it.
>
> Opinions?
>
> Kind regards,
>
> --Anselm
>
>
--
http://www.gnuffy.org - Real Community Distro
http://www.gnuffy.org/index.php/GnuEm - Gnuffy on Ipaq (Codename Peggy)
[dwm] Issues with border
Hi,
I dislike the recent addition of the 0 border if only 1 tiled client
is in the view, reasons:
- gained screen real eastate is very minimal
- configure events are increased by n at any view() and toggleview(),
if n is the number of clients in the view
- corner cases for togglefloating()
- I dislike adjustborder() altogether
So my proposal is: reverting to old behavior (nonoborder), and for
those who like it, use a config.h function like:
void toggleborder(const Arg *arg) {
borderpx = 1 - borderpx;
arrange();
}
And then define a key binding for it.
Opinions?
Kind regards,
--Anselm
Re: [dwm] [OT] Personal Website and CSS
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 10:31:47PM +, Anselm R Garbe wrote: > 2009/2/18 Matthias-Christian Ott : > > since several years I have been planed to launch a personal website. I > > used to do quite aesthetical web design before I have subscribed to > > minimalism. What annoyed me then and now was CSS and its implementations > > in modern browsers. > > > > When I tried to design a minimalist website (just some typographic > > enhancements to make texts more read- and printable), I realised that > > there seems to be no agreed standard for a default CSS stylesheet merely a > > recommendation from the CSS standard [1] (which is incomplete) and a lot > > of people seem to be concerned about resetting the browser CSS defaults - > > even the W3C does so in their stylesheets [2]. Most people seems to have > > installed nearly all popular browsers, test with those and incorporate > > workarounds if necessary. > > > > All in all this seems very absurd to me and I would like to know how > > you approached this problem. > > > > At the moment I'm just aware of The Anti-web Manifesto [3] that someone > > linked to on this mailing list. Although I mainly subscribe to it, > > browsers like Mozilla Firefox have terrible default typographic style > > and using text-mode browsers like links often seems to be only solution > > when reading longer texts. > > > > Any ideas? > > I think the only way is dropping HTML and CSS altogether and going > with something new. I'd be very interested in contributing. I think > the replacement should not only focus on presentation but equally on > forming a base for less suckish applications which are highly network > transparent. Although not perfect, I like Display PostScript - at least it's approach of having a text-based drawing language for network-transparent graphics. One could take this idea and implement a register based virtual machine that uses a stack to store their contents. You could then compile arbitrary descriptions (like vector images or programmes) into assembly language for the machine. Another advantage of this would be that you can build hardware (e.g. programme FPGAs) that does all the computation. I recently had to do some quick and dirty vector drawing and was quite content with cairo. I don't know how to incorporate events into this. But I suppose that one could build an event layer on top of this. To replace HTML which is tree-based I propose something scheme-like: (doc (title TITLE) (text (ch CHAPTER (TXT This is in my opinion a quite elegant linear representation. However, I don't think that a tree-model is required for documents, as for example Markdown or nroff demonstrate as counter-examples. But in contrast to nroff I prefer the separation of content and formating. > Kind regards, > --Anselm Regards, Matthias-Christian
Re: [dwm] slock - message over black screen
Antoni Grzymala dixit (2009-02-19, 14:14): > Delta dixit (2009-02-19, 14:09): > > > Does someone know an easy way to make slock print a message (like "I > > am on a meeting" or "I'll be back at 17:00") over its black screen? I > > think nobody talk about this in the list and it seems to me that it > > would be a good functionality. > > AFAIK, there's a bug in slock resulting in showing newly-created windows > on *top* of the black overlay. So, unless someone has fixed this bug, > you can just slock your screen and then, fire up, say, xmessage with > your message. Nah, just tested, seems to be fixed, you may try an older slock release. See the "slock bug/misfeature?" thread from Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:37:45 +0100. There are more ideas on the matter. Best, -- [a] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [dwm] slock - message over black screen
Delta dixit (2009-02-19, 14:09): > Does someone know an easy way to make slock print a message (like "I > am on a meeting" or "I'll be back at 17:00") over its black screen? I > think nobody talk about this in the list and it seems to me that it > would be a good functionality. AFAIK, there's a bug in slock resulting in showing newly-created windows on *top* of the black overlay. So, unless someone has fixed this bug, you can just slock your screen and then, fire up, say, xmessage with your message. -- [a] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
[dwm] slock - message over black screen
Hi list, Does someone know an easy way to make slock print a message (like "I am on a meeting" or "I'll be back at 17:00") over its black screen? I think nobody talk about this in the list and it seems to me that it would be a good functionality. Regards, Delta
Re: [dwm] [dwm+ow...@suckless.org: Messages from dwm@suckless.org to you have been bouncing]
2009/2/19 Joerg van den Hoff :
> hi there,
>
> some days ago I've started to receive mails
> like the attached one (about 3 up to now).
>
> so I have a few questions:
>
> -- does anybody else see this?
> -- what exactly does the message mean ("list of bounced messages: 7257")?
> -- is this a problem upstream on the mailing list machine or
> a local problem of my mail server? what can I do about it?
Looks like a local problem of your mail server. The dwm list has tried
to send you messages, but somewhere on the way (maybe your mail
server) they have been bounced back to the mailing list server.
Do you have some spam filters that bounce messages back? Maybe that's
what has happened.. (spam filters that bounce are quite evil, they
spam themselves too!)
--
Daniel
>
>
> thanks a lot
>
> joerg
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: dwm+ow...@suckless.org
> To: j.van_den_h...@fzd.de
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 00:00:08 +
> Subject: Messages from dwm@suckless.org to you have been bouncing
> Hi, this is the mlmmj program managing the mailinglist
>
> dwm@suckless.org
>
> Some messages to you could not be delivered. If you're seeing this
> message it means things are back to normal, and it's merely for your
> information.
>
> Here is the list of the bounced messages:
>
>7527
>
>
>
>
>
[dwm] [dwm+ow...@suckless.org: Messages from dwm@suckless.org to you have been bouncing]
hi there,
some days ago I've started to receive mails
like the attached one (about 3 up to now).
so I have a few questions:
-- does anybody else see this?
-- what exactly does the message mean ("list of bounced messages: 7257")?
-- is this a problem upstream on the mailing list machine or
a local problem of my mail server? what can I do about it?
thanks a lot
joerg
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, this is the mlmmj program managing the mailinglist
dwm@suckless.org
Some messages to you could not be delivered. If you're seeing this
message it means things are back to normal, and it's merely for your
information.
Here is the list of the bounced messages:
7527
--- End Message ---
Re: [dwm] [OT] Personal Website and CSS
[2009-02-19 08:51] Szabolcs Nagy > > don't try to fix the browser, you can't > it leads to a chaos where each website has different versions for each > browser, display media, resolution,.. > > there is no way to do "nice in all browsers" page (or pixel correct > presentation) I agree here. If you go this direction, you'll definately fail. Use a simple and tolerant layout instead and don't care too much about how it is actually displayed in the clients. > (flash is obviously not an option since it's not (and cannot be) > supported by most browsers) Additionally, Flash is a pain as no deep-linking is possible. meillo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [dwm] [OT] Personal Website and CSS
[2009-02-18 22:31] Anselm R Garbe > 2009/2/18 Matthias-Christian Ott : > > I think the only way is dropping HTML and CSS altogether and going > with something new. It's still good enough ... so it is likely to stay for many more years. :-( meillo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
