Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX?
Well Spoken!! Tho I have managed to make the honor roll, some that I need, have not nearly been accessible over the years, as Mt. Athos. And, still are not! Ray K5RPC - Original Message - From: Ron Notarius WN3VAW [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: DX Chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX? Urb, as always, raises some good points, and I find myself pretty much in agreement with his sentiments. However, I don't think that the issue is what is DX? so much as it is what is a DXCC entity? There IS a difference. In other words, if Mt. Athos, SMOM, 4U1UN, 4U1ITU, M-V Island, and so on are removed from the DXCC or WAE or whatever lists... they're still DX, just not additional counters in our specialized little game here. Now, whether or not these, shall we say, unusual entities should have been given their separate recognition (for whatever reason based on the DXCC rules at the time of recognition) is academic; they have the recognition. That other, similar potential entities (such as 4U1VIC and 4U1WB) have not received similar recognition (again, for whatever reason based on the rules at the time recognition was applied for) is also academic; they ain't gonna get it, and won't unless the existing rules are modified. Should they be? That, as they say, is the rub. In other words, the system is as fair as possible considering time, changing politics, and changing rules. But it is not and never will be 100% fair. To get a little more specific for a moment: I do not know if the Powers That Be on SV/A would prefer not having separate recognition for Mt. Athos from Greece for DXCC purposes; but considering that, despite the importance of the SV/A counter in our game to us, it is at best a distraction to them that they could do without. And I think we all forget to some degree sometimes that Monk Apollo is there for many other purposes than giving us all a new DXCC band/mode entity. To that extent, I would agree with Urb that we have sometimes been spoiled by the 20/30/40K QSO DXpeditions of late. Nevertheless, Mt. Athos is a DXCC entity, and so long as it remains so, activity from there will be coveted. And many won't be fortunate enough to work it. So it goes; it is simply something that we will have to learn to accept. Otherwise, we run the risk that the Powers That Be will simply revoke Monk Apollo's permission to operate from SV/A, and will not permit anyone else to do so... and we will all be worse off for it. (Just consider that at least one low-level bureaucrat has allegedly written the ARRL to have Navassa Desecheo removed from the list so that they won't have to deal with all of the amateurs asking for permission to land operate from there -- nice to know it's ok for the illegal fishermen, drug dealers, pirates, and so on to land there but those of us who follow the rules and ask nicely first get the proverbial bureaucratic shaft, but I digress...) Remember too that even if you could make a case for removing SV/A and some of the other oddballs from the list, under the current rules, the entity does NOT move to the Deleted list but disappears for all time as if it never were -- the one portion of the update I did not and do not agree with. You can just imagine the outcry from all of those losing that counter for all time -- I'd bet it would surpass the current grumbling from a few of those of us who haven't worked or confirmed it yet. Finally, to address Urb's last question, taking into consideration that despite the alleged waning interest in and number of licensed / active amateurs in the world today... DX is probably easier for most of us to work and confirm today than it was or would have been 50 years ago. So yes, some of us are a little spoiled. (But I'll tell you, I was amazed at how much fun it was, my first ventures onto 17 and 12 meters, to work some of the common DX entities for the first times on these bands -- and without benefit of linear, beam, net, or cluster either.) So, whaddya think about trying to shift our focus from arguing about the merits of whether or not a particular entity should or should not be on the list to trying to help get those less active entities QRV? 73, ron wn3vaw AJ: Did you ever hear of Evel Kneival? Lev: I never saw Star Wars -- Armageddon - Original Message - From: Urb LeJeune [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 11:34 AM Subject: [DX-CHAT] What is DX? I totally accept the fact that I'm an old fart and that the condition colors (and reduces) my thinking process. Having said that I fail to understand some of the thinking express during the recent new country/ Mt. Athos threads. There is a danger in any discussion that the definitions of key terms may not be universally shared. To wit, what do we mean by DX? To be sure, at one time DX was defined by distance, this is still
Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX?
Its FUN. That's what DX is. The frustrations, the whining, the dx cops and the bad behaviour in the pile ups all mean nothing. The fun is the only part that matters. 73, Alek, VK6APK http://profiles.yahoo.com/vk6apk Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX?
In a message dated 7/10/03 6:16:49 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On another front, the new DXCC is clearly the Challenge but by not starting fresh and allowing the OTs to scour their QSL files, the League missed an incentive opportunity for the relatively newer DXers. Not exactly a level playing field. In pushing for a fresh start, I pointed out that W4DR would be the first winner and the next 10 were equally easy to predict. In the Challenge a golden opportunity was missed. 73, Steve WB6RSE There is another 'gotcha' in the DXCC Challenge, namely the inclusion of SIX METERS in the totals. Steve is right, there are NO surprises in the DXCC Challenge Listings. Just look at the I2EOW TOPBANDS List and then add in the 6M DXCC Totals and you can accurately predict the Top DXCC Challenge listees. Note that the Top Guns in the USA on 6M have around 140 'entities' on that band. This means that a Top Gun HF (only) DXer will still be 140 'points' below W4DR, W1JR, K8MFO, and others with high 6M totals after spending hundreds of $$$ to have their 12, 15, 17, 20, and 30M QSL's 'verified' by ARRL. Unfortunately, the DXCC Challenge Listing consists ONLY of the TOTAL number of Band Countries, including SIX Meters. Hopefully they will eventually come out with a TOPBANDS like listing that includes the number of (Current) DXCC Entities by BAND as well as the Total. Using LifeTime numbers for the Single Band DXCC Listings is another 'gotcha'. I grind my teeth when I look at the 40M DXCC Listing for example. I only need TWO entities on that band (BS and P5) but am 16 entities behind the leader, W8AH because AL has another 14 DELETED entities that I will never be able to add to my totals. It's WAY past time to use CURRENT ENTITIES for the DXCC Listings. If the OT's want recognition for their Deleted Totals, I have no objection to showing LifeTime or Deleted Totals following each call in the listing, but lets use Current Countries for the Basis of the Listings! Tom N4KG (with only 48 years of DXing under my belt) Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX?
I hope that everyone who has an ax to grind with the current DXCC country criteria as it relates to Honor Roll status is also composing a well thought out, unemotional letter to their respective ARRL DX Advisory Committee members and not just "venting" here on the reflector. 73 de Bill
Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX?
I can see that there are as many opinions about the DXCC list as there are participants (active or not). My question about Tom's ideas concerns the list of current countries (entities) -- would it be composed of countries that are or could be activated? In other words, SV (Mt. Athos), VU7, VU4, P5 can all be activated and may or may not be in the next decade or two. Certainly there are others as well. If a new entity falls under the criteria for making it to the list or one falls off because of political changes then so be it. DXCC is not like IOTA in terms of defined numbers of islands that qualify because the world is ever changing. There will, however, always be those who will find a loophole to circumvent what was thought to be a perfect system. Even though I operated from CY9 and CY0, I never agreed with my friends who worked so hard to have Sable and St. Paul accepted that their work was worth it. Mind you, I had the time of my life on each of those DXpeditions. But the rules were the rules at that time and a sharp-eyed legal beagle found a pinhole and crawled through it -- Sable and St. Paul counted. I do agree that an all-time total be bracketed after the callsign of the participant if for no other reason than to indicate his/her longevity in the hobby of DXing. That would serve to satisfy some egos and help to correct any decisions that no longer fit with the criteria of the day.. But again, like any government organization, the one that controls DX's supreme award is prone to pressure from lobbyists and agitators and most of us simply sit back and allow it all to happen. Money, when combined with ego, talks. 73 Al, VE1AL ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/10/03 6:16:49 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On another front, the new DXCC is clearly the Challenge but by not starting fresh and allowing the OTs to scour their QSL files, the League missed an incentive opportunity for the relatively newer DXers. Not exactly a level playing field. In pushing for a fresh start, I pointed out that W4DR would be the first winner and the next 10 were equally easy to predict. In the Challenge a golden opportunity was missed. 73, Steve WB6RSE There is another 'gotcha' in the DXCC Challenge, namely the inclusion of SIX METERS in the totals. Steve is right, there are NO surprises in the DXCC Challenge Listings. Just look at the I2EOW TOPBANDS List and then add in the 6M DXCC Totals and you can accurately predict the Top DXCC Challenge listees. Note that the Top Guns in the USA on 6M have around 140 'entities' on that band. This means that a Top Gun HF (only) DXer will still be 140 'points' below W4DR, W1JR, K8MFO, and others with high 6M totals after spending hundreds of $$$ to have their 12, 15, 17, 20, and 30M QSL's 'verified' by ARRL. Unfortunately, the DXCC Challenge Listing consists ONLY of the TOTAL number of Band Countries, including SIX Meters. Hopefully they will eventually come out with a TOPBANDS like listing that includes the number of (Current) DXCC Entities by BAND as well as the Total. Using LifeTime numbers for the Single Band DXCC Listings is another 'gotcha'. I grind my teeth when I look at the 40M DXCC Listing for example. I only need TWO entities on that band (BS and P5) but am 16 entities behind the leader, W8AH because AL has another 14 DELETED entities that I will never be able to add to my totals. It's WAY past time to use CURRENT ENTITIES for the DXCC Listings. If the OT's want recognition for their Deleted Totals, I have no objection to showing LifeTime or Deleted Totals following each call in the listing, but lets use Current Countries for the Basis of the Listings! Tom N4KG (with only 48 years of DXing under my belt) Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
RE: [DX-CHAT] What is DX?
Morning to all, I've been reading all of this DX totals stuff and I guess maybe my question is too simple, but here it is: Is it REALLY that important to any one of you that you be NUMBER ONE? I just don't get it I guess.there are so many more important things in life. Just my 2 centsno clue as to my Total Total Total...I just know I need VU4 and VU7. I hope I get them, but then if I don't just put this on my headstone: Here lies Tony, he never worked VU4 and VU7 R.I.P. grins Tony, W4FOA Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habits. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny. -Frank Outlaw -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 7:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX? In a message dated 7/10/03 6:16:49 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On another front, the new DXCC is clearly the Challenge but by not starting fresh and allowing the OTs to scour their QSL files, the League missed an incentive opportunity for the relatively newer DXers. Not exactly a level playing field. In pushing for a fresh start, I pointed out that W4DR would be the first winner and the next 10 were equally easy to predict. In the Challenge a golden opportunity was missed. 73, Steve WB6RSE There is another 'gotcha' in the DXCC Challenge, namely the inclusion of SIX METERS in the totals. Steve is right, there are NO surprises in the DXCC Challenge Listings. Just look at the I2EOW TOPBANDS List and then add in the 6M DXCC Totals and you can accurately predict the Top DXCC Challenge listees. Note that the Top Guns in the USA on 6M have around 140 'entities' on that band. This means that a Top Gun HF (only) DXer will still be 140 'points' below W4DR, W1JR, K8MFO, and others with high 6M totals after spending hundreds of $$$ to have their 12, 15, 17, 20, and 30M QSL's 'verified' by ARRL. Unfortunately, the DXCC Challenge Listing consists ONLY of the TOTAL number of Band Countries, including SIX Meters. Hopefully they will eventually come out with a TOPBANDS like listing that includes the number of (Current) DXCC Entities by BAND as well as the Total. Using LifeTime numbers for the Single Band DXCC Listings is another 'gotcha'. I grind my teeth when I look at the 40M DXCC Listing for example. I only need TWO entities on that band (BS and P5) but am 16 entities behind the leader, W8AH because AL has another 14 DELETED entities that I will never be able to add to my totals. It's WAY past time to use CURRENT ENTITIES for the DXCC Listings. If the OT's want recognition for their Deleted Totals, I have no objection to showing LifeTime or Deleted Totals following each call in the listing, but lets use Current Countries for the Basis of the Listings! Tom N4KG (with only 48 years of DXing under my belt) Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
RE: [DX-CHAT] What is DX?
I also have been reading most of this thread with limited interest, and Tony said it all. Yes, working them all is probably a little more important to me than Tony. I need BS7, VU4, E3, and ZL9. At almost 65, I Might have a shot at the last 2. However, if I don't work them all, so be it. I had my chances at the last two in 1999 and wasn't paying attention, and in my lifetime I have had a shot at all four. Shame on me, not the system. Quit whining and leave the system alone. It has it's problems, but don't we all? It has served us well since I started chasing DX in 1958. Get your shorts out of a wad and wait like the rest of us. 73, Mike, W5UC At 08:50 AM 7/11/2003 -0400, Tony Martin wrote: Morning to all, I've been reading all of this DX totals stuff and I guess maybe my question is too simple, but here it is: Is it REALLY that important to any one of you that you be NUMBER ONE? I just don't get it I guess.there are so many more important things in life. Just my 2 centsno clue as to my Total Total Total...I just know I need VU4 and VU7. I hope I get them, but then if I don't just put this on my headstone: Here lies Tony, he never worked VU4 and VU7 R.I.P. grins Tony, W4FOA Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habits. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny. -Frank Outlaw -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 7:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX? In a message dated 7/10/03 6:16:49 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On another front, the new DXCC is clearly the Challenge but by not starting fresh and allowing the OTs to scour their QSL files, the League missed an incentive opportunity for the relatively newer DXers. Not exactly a level playing field. In pushing for a fresh start, I pointed out that W4DR would be the first winner and the next 10 were equally easy to predict. In the Challenge a golden opportunity was missed. 73, Steve WB6RSE There is another 'gotcha' in the DXCC Challenge, namely the inclusion of SIX METERS in the totals. Steve is right, there are NO surprises in the DXCC Challenge Listings. Just look at the I2EOW TOPBANDS List and then add in the 6M DXCC Totals and you can accurately predict the Top DXCC Challenge listees. Note that the Top Guns in the USA on 6M have around 140 'entities' on that band. This means that a Top Gun HF (only) DXer will still be 140 'points' below W4DR, W1JR, K8MFO, and others with high 6M totals after spending hundreds of $$$ to have their 12, 15, 17, 20, and 30M QSL's 'verified' by ARRL. Unfortunately, the DXCC Challenge Listing consists ONLY of the TOTAL number of Band Countries, including SIX Meters. Hopefully they will eventually come out with a TOPBANDS like listing that includes the number of (Current) DXCC Entities by BAND as well as the Total. Using LifeTime numbers for the Single Band DXCC Listings is another 'gotcha'. I grind my teeth when I look at the 40M DXCC Listing for example. I only need TWO entities on that band (BS and P5) but am 16 entities behind the leader, W8AH because AL has another 14 DELETED entities that I will never be able to add to my totals. It's WAY past time to use CURRENT ENTITIES for the DXCC Listings. If the OT's want recognition for their Deleted Totals, I have no objection to showing LifeTime or Deleted Totals following each call in the listing, but lets use Current Countries for the Basis of the Listings! Tom N4KG (with only 48 years of DXing under my belt) Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill Outbound mail checked by Norton Anti-Virus 2003
Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX?
On 7/11/2003 Mike, W5UC, wrote: Quit whining and leave the system alone. It has it's problems, but don't we all? It has served us well since I started chasing DX in 1958. Get your shorts out of a wad and wait like the rest of us. BRAVO ZULU!!! Well put Mike! 73, Charlie, W0YG.. Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX?
Carl wrote: Monk Apollo is not going to live forever...then what ? Food for thought. 73, de Carl K8AV Change entity of Mount Athos to that of Monk Apollo. Then when he dies it goes into the goodby list as the entity has ceased to exist. There! 73, de John N6JM Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX
ve7kb wrote: How long is this going to go on,sure glad my delete key is still working Heck, OM, it's a DX forum. If not interested, yes do use your delete key. But, please let those who are interested to continue on. de John N6JM Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX
My delete keyis working finebut surely getting a work out lately. Getting a little tired of the same 4 or 5 guys always trying to explain their views no matter what the subject is.There must be more out there excluding this inner core? Randy WX5L - Original Message - From: ve7kb To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 10:32 AM Subject: [DX-CHAT] What is DX How long is this going to go on,sure glad my delete key is still working
Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX?
Very wise statements, Urb. I agree 100%. I've commented on other reflectors about DXing on VHF. Seems the VHF+ ops I know are a whole different breed of cat than the HF DXers. Skill with and knowledge of conditions, luck and equipment are everything there. There are usually no pileups on 2304 MHz to contend with. It's you against Mother Nature, not you against other ops. And for some reason, no one that I know ever lies about the grid square or location he's actually in and no one questions it. Maybe that honesty comes about because the competitiveness isn't against one another as a rule. DX does refer to distance. It's a LOT harder to work someone 300 miles away on 2304 MHz than to work someone 100 miles away. As far as countries or entities go, I don't care what's added to the list. The only thing about withdrawing entities is that people get upset when something gets taken away from them without their full consent. They feel like they are losing something. So there are going to be some people who complain about that, probably more so than those who would complain about adding an entity. I don't have a kW or big antennas but I do have what I consider a superb rig (TS-850). So in some ways I guess most of us have been spoiled in one way or another by modern technology. What would it be like using a Viking transmitter, Hammarlund HQ-180 receiver and wire antennas, no packet, etc once again? 73, Zack W9SZ On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, Urb LeJeune wrote: I totally accept the fact that I'm an old fart and that the condition colors (and reduces) my thinking process. Having said that I fail to understand some of the thinking express during the recent new country/ Mt. Athos threads. There is a danger in any discussion that the definitions of key terms may not be universally shared. To wit, what do we mean by DX? To be sure, at one time DX was defined by distance, this is still a valid criterion on VHF and especially UHF bands. I don't think that defination is valid any longer. I have a converted CB SSB rig on ten meters. There is no question that at some point I have put a S9 signal at an point on this planet. If someone was there, and listening for me, I could have easily worked them. The same holds for anyone reading this message. So the distance test fails for DX as we know it. I would hope we would all agree that our attraction to DXing has at it's base the element of difficulty. The difficulty can take many form, competition, propagation, and lack of activity from a particular DX entity. Since there is a competitive element, a measurement metric is involved. Many of us have chosen a country count as that metric. If that's true, why difference does it make what the countries are as long as we all share a common list. Why should it make any difference if the country is an office building in NYC or a small group of buildings surrounded by Greece? Indeed, why should on-the-air activity make any difference in the recognition of country status? It seem to me this thread (and I contributed to a portion of it) really is about how to create a new country and how to remove a country that is already there. It the first case, we already have a set of rules. If you don't like the rules, lobby to change them but there are rules. In the later case it would seem to me that any country not meeting the test of the current rules should be removed. We are then left with something approaching what we have now. An all time score and I score base on the currently available countries. If you live long enough you may well become number one on the first list. I started DXing in the late 50s and things have changed. I'm not necessarily saying the old way was better (although I really do believe it was.) Back then few DXers ran a KW, many didn't have a beam, and there were no packet clusters, lists, and DXpeditions (as we now know them) were relatively rare. At gatherings of DXers that talk center on how to work some station that show up about twice a year for about an hour each time (AC5PN) or who would once in a while show up in a French speaking phone net in the then DX portion on the upper end of 20 meter phone (FW8AA.) Can it be that we have become spoiled by high power, big antennas, packet clusters, and DXpeditions having 40K contact in a few day? Urb, W2DEC Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX?
In a message dated 7/10/03 5:16:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Monk Apollo is not going to live forever...then what ? Food for thought. 73, de Carl K8AV How about P5 which didn't count for a long time, then counted, then ordered off the air? Dave, WT8R
Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX?
And never DID provide the documentation everyone else has to provide??? Al/W8FAX
Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX?
In a message dated 7/10/2003 4:44:49 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One tangential thought: If there are several entities that for political oradministrative reasons are off-limits for amateur operating, and have beenfor a significant (minimum 10 years) period of time, would you consider notcounting them in the Honor Roll totals? Think this through carefully... wehave VU4, VU7, P5, KP1, and KP5 in that category right now. We get a fewmore, and it becomes close to impossible for amateurs licensed in the last10 years or so to ever achieve HR unless this situation should change. Other than in the light of the current thread, I don't consider this a "tangential" thought at all. But, GFL in getting anyone to listen to the argument - other than tangentially I proposed this very idea a number of years ago and never got past the first person: the idea of a "suspended" list - or whatever word you wish to choose - for those countries/entities not on the air for a certain reasonable period of time. Perhaps 10 years is not long enough, but someone above my pay grade can decide those sorts of things. Your list, even minus P5, might be too long for a large number of people to accept. Oh sure, I received a polite "Thank You" letter, but that's where it died. You'll get all sorts of people who will say things along the lines of "Well, that's the game." or "Look at BY and ZA. We waited 40 years, and they're a piece of cake now." Unfortunately, the thing these people fail to realize is only those people who are alive can make these comments. The other thing you'll find is that the group that immediately and vehemently disagrees with this concept generally consists of those who have their "#1" plaque already. (I'd reallybe curiousto know how many holders of that award still have them "all" worked - at least before the P5 popped up?) My basic difficultyis with the concept of an unattainable goal - and I don't mean unattainable only by me. I'm to the point of needing only VU4, and there's nothing to suggest there's a snowball's chance for that to be active. I certainlyno longerhave my reply letter from the ARRL (it was probably 7-8 years ago), but the gist of the answer was, "Don't fret. We're coming out with a new DXCC structure, and the 'Top of the Honor Roll' will lose it's significance. You'll be chasing band/countries from now on." Hmmm. You'll have no trouble finding the application for your #1 plaque on the ARRL web site in July 2003. Is this the end of the world? Hardlyof DXCC? Clearly not. I'm simply a bit baffled by having an award that no one can possibly earn. Steve
Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX?
I proposed almost the exact same thing (even to the 10 year period of no activity) several years ago but I wasn't taken seriously. I still think it's a good idea. 73, Zack W9SZ On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, Ron Notarius WN3VAW wrote: Good point. Another reason why it behooves us to be on our best behavior in dealing with the Powers That Be. One tangential thought: If there are several entities that for political or administrative reasons are off-limits for amateur operating, and have been for a significant (minimum 10 years) period of time, would you consider not counting them in the Honor Roll totals? Think this through carefully... we have VU4, VU7, P5, KP1, and KP5 in that category right now. We get a few more, and it becomes close to impossible for amateurs licensed in the last 10 years or so to ever achieve HR unless this situation should change. ...and I sure hope that it does, but bureaucrats have long memories, and it's easier to say no than to grant permission... 73, ron wn3vaw Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX?
I too floated the idea of a suspended list many years ago and it met the same fate. Now that I revisit it: Imagine that a suspended country became active and worked, say, only three stations. It could take another 10 years or whatever the inactivity period to suspend before it was suspended again. This would knock the guys on the lowest rung of the HR off. So we'd need an activity criteria to be reinstated as a country from the suspended list. How many Qs would be enough? 1, 10, 100, 1000? What if the Qs were all JAs? Clearly a no-win situation. On another front, the new DXCC is clearly the Challenge but by not starting fresh and allowing the OTs to scour their QSL files, the League missed an incentive opportunity for the relatively newer DXers. Not exactly a level playing field. In pushing for a fresh start, I pointed out that W4DR would be the first winner and the next 10 were equally easy to predict. In the Challenge a golden opportunity was missed. 73, Steve WB6RSE (Self admitted OT) On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 03:22 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I proposed this very idea a number of years ago and never got past the first person: the idea of a suspended list - or whatever word you wish to choose - for those countries/entities not on the air for a certain reasonable period of time. Perhaps 10 years is not long enough, but someone above my pay grade can decide those sorts of things. Your list, even minus P5, might be too long for a large number of people to accept. Oh sure, I received a polite Thank You letter, but that's where it died. Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX?
Steve N3SL wrote: My basic difficulty is with the concept of an unattainable goal - and I don't mean unattainable only by me. I'm to the point of needing only VU4, and there's nothing to suggest there's a snowball's chance for that to be active. I must respectfully disagree with that thinking. VU4 will become active. I have no idea when or how, but it will, just like XY and ZA. It may take 5 years, 10 years, or more - but it will. That's what makes DXCC so great. Eventually you'll succeed at what you thought was IMPOSSIBLE. That's a real high! Early in my HF career (late-80s I think), I struggled to complete a QSO with VK0HI on Heard Is. I could never quite pull out my report, and had to give up. It wasn't too many more years during that pre-P5 era before VK0(H) was the only one I needed for Top of Honor Roll. But I had to wait about 10 more years before VK0IR went there. Top of Honor Roll at last, right? No way! Two years before the VK0IR DXpedition, P5 was added to the list, and that one was REALLY impossible. It finally took me about 13 years from missing VK0HI until I worked Ed P5/4L4FN to make Top of Honor Roll, but boy were those 13 years fun. Relax Steve! 73, and GL with VU4, John, NT5C. Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX?
I guess I have mixed feelings, since I still need several of the non-workable entities. On the other hand, there was a long period when BY and ZA were not possible to work and I don't recall any serious movement to remove them from the list. Maybe folks were more patient a few years back. 73, Bob, N7XY Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX?
Well I got news for you about VU4. It will be active again, only a matter of time. Let me relate a story about VU4. It point out that things happen overnight that we cannot foresee. Here is the story. An Indian citizen, Mani, VU2ANI, was in Port Blair on the Andaman and Nicobar Islands within the last 7 or so years. However there was a lot of moaning about why he had a VU2 license instead of a VU7 (should be VU4 I think). However Mani was very active. Mani had built everything in his shack, homebrewed everything! It was a real credit to him to have built all his own equipment, well not exactly copy book homebrewing but nevertheless it worked and he was quite active. However it was sometimes unreliable and Mani would suddenly for no apparent reason disappear. An amateur radio license in India is linked to an address. If you move to a new house, your license must be re-indorsed for that new location. Mani worked for All India Radio as a junior engineer and was posted to Port Blair. Once he had moved, he sent his license in for re-issue which it was and it clearly showed his Port Blair address, Government House, Port Blair, duly issued by the Indian WPC in New Delhi. Government House in Port Blair is a compound for All India Radio. Mani's license was also endorsed by the Senior Engineer in Charge of All India Radio, a component of the Indian government. Mani enjoyed his initial posting to VU4 and subsequently decided to extend his stay. When that happened a sponsor came forward to donate used equipment to him so he could perhaps enjoy a bit more reliability and work the world. An import license was duly issued by WPC in New Delhi and equipment was flown into Mani post haste. Mani was soon on the air with the new equipment and his Indian Government approved re-issued license for Port Blair. However the controversy about him using a VU2 license, which was his call, from VU4 just would not disappear. So, Mani decided to go again to the WPC and request a new license with VU4 as the prefix. This apparently woke someone in WPC (I don't know what this stands for-perhaps Wireless Postal Commission- I don't have a clue) and once that re-issue application hit someone's desk in New Delhi, they suddenly realized that they had issued a modification to a license that allowed someone to operate from Port Blair without realizing it and duly canceled Mani's license. The bottom line, ARRL did not allow VU2ANI contacts from VU4 to count even though he had what certainly was a valid license, no question! Mani had done everything legal and above board and his contacts should have been legal and count. But alas, this was not the case. Needless to say, Mani did not extend his stay and the rest is history. The moral of this story is that nobody can predict what will happen. As others have said, Mt. Athos' status will change at some point with a new operator, new equipment, guest operator or all three. P5 will be active again. The same for VU7. In this changing world, anything is possible, even the Israelis making peace with the Palestinians! Who would have thought that? Delete a country from the DXCC list because it is inactive? Get serious. All us gray headed geezers need something to look at after all these years of climbing the ladder. This proposal has been floated lots of times and perhaps at some time, it might fly. However count me as a negative vote when this comes up. Lets all keep our fingers crossed these extremely rare countries come on sooner than later. It will happen!!! 73, Charlie, W0YG.. Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX?
Yes, Bob, patience is what it is all about and you're right, it is in short supply these days. To brighten your day: I have a QSLs from VK0HM on Heard Is. (worked on Dec. 26, 1969) and from ZM1AAT/K on Raoul Is. in the Kermadecs (worked less than a week later on Jan. 2, 1970). I had only a few VK and ZL cards in my collection at the time and was using an R4B and an FL-100B to a 20M dipole at 30 feet at the time I worked them. Mind you, I have lots more (well a few) with both since then but I still basically run 100W although a tri-band beam makes a huge difference. There's always hope. 73, Al, VE1AL __ Bob Nielsen wrote: I guess I have mixed feelings, since I still need several of the non-workable entities. On the other hand, there was a long period when BY and ZA were not possible to work and I don't recall any serious movement to remove them from the list. Maybe folks were more patient a few years back. 73, Bob, N7XY Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems http://njdxa.org/dx-chat To post a message, DX related items only, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX?
In a message dated 7/10/2003 7:36:57 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My basic difficulty is with the concept of an unattainable goal - and I don't mean unattainable only by me. I'm to the point of needing only VU4, and there's nothing to suggest there's a snowball's chance for that to be active.I must respectfully disagree with that thinking.VU4 will become active. I have no idea when or how, but it will, just like XY and ZA. It may take 5 years, 10 years, or more - but it will. That's what makes DXCC so great. Eventually you'll succeed at what you thought was IMPOSSIBLE. That's a real high! John, et al, I don't want to belabor the point, because nothing is going to change anyway, but I obviously did not make my point clearly. "It may take 5 years, 10 years, or more ..." is precisely why I would propose the concept in the first place. On July 10, 2003, it is absolutely impossible - and has been for 10+ years - to work them all and achieve that "real high." So, what is the purpose? Top of the Honor Roll is no longer an operating achievement at this level. It is simply a matter of longevity. There's not a whole lot of interest- or value - in being stuck at T minus 1. Besides, the proposal I made to the League was for a "suspended" status, with immediate reversion to full active statusthe minute a single (valid) QSO took place. So, if/when VU4 becomes active before I kick the bucket, I would need it. I really don't need to relax, as my not getting that last entity hardlykeeps me awake. Certainly, it would be nice, and if I ever get there, I'm guessingit eventually would evolve to a "ho-hum, now what?" frame of mind. I'm simply saying it is not at all logical to me to have an award that cannot be achieved - or, to grant you a point, can only be achieved if you're aDXer 40 or 50 years. Hardly qualifies for an "instant gratification" label 73, Steve
Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX?
I see we stirred up some good thinking on this thread... I must agree with Steve N3SL on one point. For Honor Roll to have any meaning to recent DX'ers, it must be obtainable. Difficult? Certainly -- no argument, because in order to be worthwhile, it must be earned. But impossible? That's another story. My original point was that there are currently at least 5 entities that have been silent for over 10 years for various military, political, or other non-amateur reasons. And I'm not even counting several that became active only for a short time but hopefully won't be silent for long --P5 and E4 are in this category. Now, I am NOT suggesting nor do I mean to suggest that these entities should be removed from the general DXCC list. But I am suggesting that some consideration be given to how to consider entities for HR counts. Deleted entities (of which under current rules there will be no more) aren't counted towards HR because they are now impossible to work. Is it reasonable to also not consider non-deleted but long-term (10 years? 15 years? 25 years?) inactive entities from the HR counts? Obtaining Honor Roll as it currently stands holdsno interest for me at present. It's not because it's difficult (which it should be). Difficult doesn't scare me.I never thought I'd get Extra, but it was possible, I worked at it, and I got it. I never thought I'd ever approach 5BDXCC, but earlier this year I worked the last few on 80 I needed for that (and now just need 10 more cards in to confirm it).Obtaining these goals was long, hard, and a struggle at times, but they were obtainable I succeeded. But Honor Roll? I just don't see it, not with the significant virtually insurmountable number of unworkable entities at present. Yes, things could change overnight, but they might not, too. Add in stinkers like what happened to Thor 4W6MM -- specifically, his finding out, almost a year after the fact, that his ticket officially expired with the UNAET, but no one told him, so that's a worked/confirmed entity that goes down the tubes -- and the legal beagles trying to find loopholes to remove entities (the aforementioned 4W) and re-add them so that only THEIR op will count -- and it just ain't worth it gang. But let me throw this one at you: What if HR only counted entities worked in thelast (fill in a large but reasonable number) years? In other words, let's say, for the sake of argumentof the 335 odd active entities today, only 315 had been QRV since 1988 (15 years). So only those 315 would count towards HR. Count changes on 1 January or some other arbitrary annual date. Yes, this would "force" active DX'ers to re-work some entities once every 10 years, but I'd bet that the active ones would have been doing so anyway. No, I don't expect it to happen, but it is a thought... 73, ron wn3vaw AJ: "Did you ever hear of Evel Kneival?"Lev: "I never saw Star Wars" -- Armageddon - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:47 PM Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] What is DX? In a message dated 7/10/2003 7:36:57 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My basic difficulty is with the concept of an unattainable goal - and I don't mean unattainable only by me. I'm to the point of needing only VU4, and there's nothing to suggest there's a snowball's chance for that to be active.I must respectfully disagree with that thinking.VU4 will become active. I have no idea when or how, but it will, just like XY and ZA. It may take 5 years, 10 years, or more - but it will. That's what makes DXCC so great. Eventually you'll succeed at what you thought was IMPOSSIBLE. That's a real high! John, et al, I don't want to belabor the point, because nothing is going to change anyway, but I obviously did not make my point clearly. "It may take 5 years, 10 years, or more ..." is precisely why I would propose the concept in the first place. On July 10, 2003, it is absolutely impossible - and has been for 10+ years - to work them all and achieve that "real high." So, what is the purpose? Top of the Honor Roll is no longer an operating achievement at this level. It is simply a matter of longevity. There's not a whole lot of interest- or value - in being stuck at T minus 1. Besides, the proposal I made to the League was for a "suspended" status, with immediate reversion to full active statusthe minute a single (valid) QSO took place. So, if/when VU4 becomes active before I kick the bucket, I would need it. I really don't need to relax, as my not getting that last entity hardlykeeps me awake. Certainly, it would be nice, and if I ever get there, I'm guessingit eventually would evolve to a "ho-hum, now what?" frame of mind. I'm simply
