Re: [ECOLOG-L] THE COST OF PUBLISHING RE: [ECOLOG-L] Open Access and Intellectual Imperialism
ESA offers a free, volunteer-based writing service called Author Help (http://esa.org/authorhelp/). Authors can search by discipline (although the search doesn't work very well) or simply scroll through the list of 75 volunteers. Help is not limited to manuscripts destined for ESA journals. Perhaps, rather than bemoan the discrimination that non-English speakers face in getting their often excellent research published, more of us could volunteer to help those authors.
Re: [ECOLOG-L] THE COST OF PUBLISHING RE: [ECOLOG-L] Open Access and Intellectual Imperialism
One snag with this is the language barrier for those writing papers in their second or third language: English. I agree with Cara. I always submit manuscript after being edited by my native English speaker co-workers and a professional editor. Even after those editing, journal reviewers often put low on Readability Criteria, such as * Interest: Captures and holds readers' attention. * Understandable: Uses easy-to-understand language and flows smoothly. * Development: Appropriately sequences and constructs paragraphs and sentences to support the central idea and conclusions. * Mechanics: Uses acceptable standards of spelling and grammar. In my experience, most of my Native English speaking coworkers can correct simple spelling and grammar errors. However, most of them can't correct language flow smoothly, except for them rewriting the entire manuscript, which they would not do. Toshihide Hamachan Hamazaki, PhD : 濱崎俊秀：浜ちゃん Alaska Department of Fish Game Division of Commercial Fisheries 333 Raspberry Rd. Anchorage, Alaska 99518 Ph: 907-267-2158 Fax: 907-267-2442 Cell: 907-440-9934 E-mail: toshihide.hamaz...@alaska.gov CL wrote: One snag with this is the language barrier for those writing papers in their second or third language: English. I'm working hard to get my Taiwanese students to attend and follow directions, but it is an uphill battle. Some authors are just going to need some help. CL malcolm McCallum wrote: we are working to shift most of the formatting to the authors, but this requires VERY GOOD directions! ~~ Cara Lin Bridgman cara@msa.hinet.net P.O. Box 013 Shinjhuang http://megaview.com.tw/~caralin Longjing Township http://www.BugDorm.com Taichung County 43499 TaiwanPhone: 886-4-2632-5484 ~~
Re: [ECOLOG-L] THE COST OF PUBLISHING RE: [ECOLOG-L] Open Access and Intellectual Imperialism
Hello all, I have been translating papers from Portuguese and Spanish, and fixing the English in papers already translated, for around 10 years now. As a biologist, I can usually figure out what the person wished to say in English and how to say it reasonably well. However, I have seen that when translated or reviewed by an English speaker who is NOT a biologist, or a non-native English speaker who speaks English very well, the translations often end up very poorly written. Also, translations are often done by computer and the original author often may not have the ability to recognize poorly written English and all these cause issues with the paper after it is submitted. At the same time, reviewers often seem disinclined to allow for what we might call an accent in the English. I have seen papers with minimal accent that often came after a translation when the original author thought that one or two sentences needed revision, and did so without consulting the translator. Those few sentences caught the eye of the reviewer who then gave a blanket recommendation to review the ENTIRE English. Perhaps reviewers need to be a little more flexible as well. Jim Hamazaki, Hamachan (DFG) wrote on 19-May-09 3:33: One snag with this is the language barrier for those writing papers in their second or third language: English. I agree with Cara. I always submit manuscript after being edited by my native English speaker co-workers and a professional editor. Even after those editing, journal reviewers often put low on Readability Criteria, such as * Interest: Captures and holds readers' attention. * Understandable: Uses easy-to-understand language and flows smoothly. * Development: Appropriately sequences and constructs paragraphs and sentences to support the central idea and conclusions. * Mechanics: Uses acceptable standards of spelling and grammar. In my experience, most of my Native English speaking coworkers can correct simple spelling and grammar errors. However, most of them can't correct language flow smoothly, except for them rewriting the entire manuscript, which they would not do. Toshihide Hamachan Hamazaki, PhD : 濱崎俊秀：浜ちゃん Alaska Department of Fish Game Division of Commercial Fisheries 333 Raspberry Rd. Anchorage, Alaska 99518 Ph: 907-267-2158 Fax: 907-267-2442 Cell: 907-440-9934 E-mail: toshihide.hamaz...@alaska.gov CL wrote: One snag with this is the language barrier for those writing papers in their second or third language: English. I'm working hard to get my Taiwanese students to attend and follow directions, but it is an uphill battle. Some authors are just going to need some help. CL malcolm McCallum wrote: we are working to shift most of the formatting to the authors, but this requires VERY GOOD directions! ~~ Cara Lin Bridgman cara@msa.hinet.net P.O. Box 013 Shinjhuang http://megaview.com.tw/~caralin Longjing Township http://www.BugDorm.com Taichung County 43499 TaiwanPhone: 886-4-2632-5484 ~~ -- James J. Roper Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute Bocas del Toro Marine Research Station MRC 0580-03 Unit 9100, Box 0948 DPO AA 34002-9998 Skype-in (USA):+1 706 5501064 Skype-in (Brazil):+55 41 39415715 E-mail - personal: jjro...@gmail.com E-mail - consulting: arsart...@gmail.com STRI Bocas del Toro http://www.stri.org/english/research/facilities/marine/bocas_del_toro/index.php Programa de Po's-graduac,a~o em Ecologia e Conservac,a~o http://www.bio.ufpr.br/ecologia/ Educational Pages http://jjroper.googlepages.com/ Ars Artium Consulting http://arsartium.googlepages.com/ 9^o 21.122' N, and 82^o 15.390' W In Google Earth, copy and paste - 9 21.122' N, 82 15.390' W
Re: [ECOLOG-L] THE COST OF PUBLISHING RE: [ECOLOG-L] Open Access and Intellectual Imperialism
True, non-english speakers may have problems with this and many other things. Typically, some help must be given in this case. Also, folks who are not computer savy will find it difficult. But if you knock off say 50% of the submissions to author formatting, it cuts the workload of a volunteer layout person a lot! So its still worth the effort! We have tested author formatting a few times and then Vista replaced XP so we had to start all over writing the instructions! 2009/5/19 Hamazaki, Hamachan (DFG) toshihide.hamaz...@alaska.gov: One snag with this is the language barrier for those writing papers in their second or third language: English. I agree with Cara. I always submit manuscript after being edited by my native English speaker co-workers and a professional editor. Even after those editing, journal reviewers often put low on Readability Criteria, such as * Interest: Captures and holds readers' attention. * Understandable: Uses easy-to-understand language and flows smoothly. * Development: Appropriately sequences and constructs paragraphs and sentences to support the central idea and conclusions. * Mechanics: Uses acceptable standards of spelling and grammar. In my experience, most of my Native English speaking coworkers can correct simple spelling and grammar errors. However, most of them can't correct language flow smoothly, except for them rewriting the entire manuscript, which they would not do. Toshihide Hamachan Hamazaki, PhD : 濱崎俊秀：浜ちゃん Alaska Department of Fish Game Division of Commercial Fisheries 333 Raspberry Rd. Anchorage, Alaska 99518 Ph: 907-267-2158 Fax: 907-267-2442 Cell: 907-440-9934 E-mail: toshihide.hamaz...@alaska.gov CL wrote: One snag with this is the language barrier for those writing papers in their second or third language: English. I'm working hard to get my Taiwanese students to attend and follow directions, but it is an uphill battle. Some authors are just going to need some help. CL malcolm McCallum wrote: we are working to shift most of the formatting to the authors, but this requires VERY GOOD directions! ~~ Cara Lin Bridgman cara@msa.hinet.net P.O. Box 013 Shinjhuang http://megaview.com.tw/~caralin Longjing Township http://www.BugDorm.com Taichung County 43499 TaiwanPhone: 886-4-2632-5484 ~~ -- Malcolm L. McCallum Associate Professor of Biology Texas AM University-Texarkana Editor, Herpetological Conservation and Biology http://www.herpconbio.org http://www.twitter.com/herpconbio Fall Teaching Schedule Office Hours: Landscape Ecology: T,R 10-11:40 pm Environmental Physiology: MW 1-2:40 pm Seminar: T 2:30-3:30pm Genetics: M 6-10pm Office Hours: M 3-6, T: 12-2, W: 3-4 1880's: There's lots of good fish in the sea W.S. Gilbert 1990's: Many fish stocks depleted due to overfishing, habitat loss, and pollution. 2000: Marine reserves, ecosystem restoration, and pollution reduction MAY help restore populations. 2022: Soylent Green is People! Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.
Re: [ECOLOG-L] THE COST OF PUBLISHING RE: [ECOLOG-L] Open Access and Intellectual Imperialism
James makes a good point about familiarity with subject matter. Even in a language reasonably close to English, such as Spanish, word-by-word translation can turn elegant Spanish into gibberish in English. I have found the computer translations to be comically bad. He makes another good point about the accent. As an editor I receive papers with said accent from non-native speakers, and many from native speakers with fistsful of grade-school language errors. The former deserve more of that flexibility. Don On May 19, 2009, at 6:51 AM, James J. Roper wrote: Hello all, I have been translating papers from Portuguese and Spanish, and fixing the English in papers already translated, for around 10 years now. As a biologist, I can usually figure out what the person wished to say in English and how to say it reasonably well. However, I have seen that when translated or reviewed by an English speaker who is NOT a biologist, or a non-native English speaker who speaks English very well, the translations often end up very poorly written. Also, translations are often done by computer and the original author often may not have the ability to recognize poorly written English and all these cause issues with the paper after it is submitted. At the same time, reviewers often seem disinclined to allow for what we might call an accent in the English. I have seen papers with minimal accent that often came after a translation when the original author thought that one or two sentences needed revision, and did so without consulting the translator. Those few sentences caught the eye of the reviewer who then gave a blanket recommendation to review the ENTIRE English. Perhaps reviewers need to be a little more flexible as well. Jim Hamazaki, Hamachan (DFG) wrote on 19-May-09 3:33: One snag with this is the language barrier for those writing papers in their second or third language: English. I agree with Cara. I always submit manuscript after being edited by my native English speaker co-workers and a professional editor. Even after those editing, journal reviewers often put low on Readability Criteria, such as * Interest: Captures and holds readers' attention. * Understandable: Uses easy-to-understand language and flows smoothly. * Development: Appropriately sequences and constructs paragraphs and sentences to support the central idea and conclusions. * Mechanics: Uses acceptable standards of spelling and grammar. In my experience, most of my Native English speaking coworkers can correct simple spelling and grammar errors. However, most of them can't correct language flow smoothly, except for them rewriting the entire manuscript, which they would not do. Toshihide Hamachan Hamazaki, PhD : 濱崎俊秀：浜ちゃん Alaska Department of Fish Game Division of Commercial Fisheries 333 Raspberry Rd. Anchorage, Alaska 99518 Ph: 907-267-2158 Fax: 907-267-2442 Cell: 907-440-9934 E-mail: toshihide.hamaz...@alaska.gov CL wrote: One snag with this is the language barrier for those writing papers in their second or third language: English. I'm working hard to get my Taiwanese students to attend and follow directions, but it is an uphill battle. Some authors are just going to need some help. CL malcolm McCallum wrote: we are working to shift most of the formatting to the authors, but this requires VERY GOOD directions! ~~ Cara Lin Bridgman cara@msa.hinet.net P.O. Box 013 Shinjhuang http://megaview.com.tw/~caralin Longjing Township http://www.BugDorm.com Taichung County 43499 TaiwanPhone: 886-4-2632-5484 ~~ -- -- -- James J. Roper Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute Bocas del Toro Marine Research Station MRC 0580-03 Unit 9100, Box 0948 DPO AA 34002-9998 Skype-in (USA):+1 706 5501064 Skype-in (Brazil):+55 41 39415715 E-mail - personal: jjro...@gmail.com E-mail - consulting: arsart...@gmail.com STRI Bocas del Toro http://www.stri.org/english/research/facilities/marine/ bocas_del_toro/index.php Programa de Po's-graduac,a~o em Ecologia e Conservac,a~o http://www.bio.ufpr.br/ecologia/ Educational Pages http://jjroper.googlepages.com/ Ars Artium Consulting http://arsartium.googlepages.com/ 9^o 21.122' N, and 82^o 15.390' W In Google Earth, copy and paste - 9 21.122' N, 82 15.390' W -- -- Don McKenzie Research Ecologist Pacific Wildland Fire Sciences Lab US Forest Service Affiliate Professor College of Forest Resources and CSES Climate Impacts Group University of Washington phone: 206-732-7824 cell: 206-321-5966 d...@u.washington.edu
Re: [ECOLOG-L] THE COST OF PUBLISHING RE: [ECOLOG-L] Open Access and Intellectual Imperialism
I can sympathise with Hamachan Hamazaki on this, and would like to add my own two bits. I'm a native English speaker with a pretty good writing background, and experiences with reviewers often drive me up the wall. First of all, some reviewers insist on the use of jargon - I once wrote a paper on how scientists could better promote a general understanding of biodiversity in which I pointed out that protecting biodiversity does not involve just saving cute fuzzy seals and pands, but also ugly worms in the mud - the reviewer complained that this language did not belong in a scientific paper and I should refer to charismatic megafauna instead. I have also been accused of writing like a journalist, even in the style of Scientific American. So much for professional training in writing! In an artcle presenting a general theory of optimal management of a two-species fishery I was told that the species had to have Latin names. Hey, this was a general theory! So I called the species Quid pro Quo and Dolus fictus, but jokes are not allowed either, so the editor finally settled on the exciting Species A and Species B. Readability is seldom an issue. As for acceptable standards, when I am working on an EU project I use British spelling and usage, but many reviewers insist on American English. In fact, when I was living in Canada as a Canadian citizen employed by the government of Canada, I sometimes had reviewers complain about my using Canadian spelling in submissions to Canadian journals! Plus many reviewers are pretty arrogant about correcting spelling they don't understand. I once had a reviewer meticulously correct my use of weighted, as in weighted average, and replaced every occurence with weighed. I feel strongly that dealing with the language is primarily a job for th editor, not the reviewer. Of course the reviewer should point out serious problems, but I consider my responsibility as a reviewer is to evaluate the science, not the language. Of course the language has to be clear in the final version, and it is best to check it with someone fluent in the language or with a scientific editor (disclaimer, I do scientific editing so this is not a disinerested comment), but I think we should make every effort not to discriminate against colleagues who were not brought up speaking English. Bill Silvert Portugal - Original Message - From: Hamazaki, Hamachan (DFG) toshihide.hamaz...@alaska.gov To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] THE COST OF PUBLISHING RE: [ECOLOG-L] Open Access and Intellectual Imperialism I always submit manuscript after being edited by my native English speaker co-workers and a professional editor. Even after those editing, journal reviewers often put low on Readability Criteria, such as * Interest: Captures and holds readers' attention. * Understandable: Uses easy-to-understand language and flows smoothly. * Development: Appropriately sequences and constructs paragraphs and sentences to support the central idea and conclusions. * Mechanics: Uses acceptable standards of spelling and grammar.
Re: [ECOLOG-L] THE COST OF PUBLISHING RE: [ECOLOG-L] Open Access and Intellectual Imperialism
The cover letter accompanying one paper read We hope this paper will be excepted. It was. Original message From: William Silvert cien...@silvert.org I once had a reviewer meticulously correct my use of weighted, as in weighted average, and replaced every occurence with weighed.
Re: [ECOLOG-L] THE COST OF PUBLISHING RE: [ECOLOG-L] Open Access and Intellectual Imperialism
Cara and others, Have you heard of the American Journal Experts? They are an organization to which non-native English speakers can submit manuscripts to for review by graduate students and retired professors before they finally submit to journals. http://www.journalexperts.com/ I don't intend to promote that site in particular; I'm sure they are many others that serve similar purposes. Might help your students with a final draft. Best, Jennie Jennie Miller Research Assistant Smithsonian Institution National Museum of Natural History Department of Vertebrate Zoology P.O. Box 37012, MRC 108 Washington, DC 20013-7012 Tel: 202-633-1250 Fax: 202-786-2979 miller...@si.edu Street location: 10th Street and Constitution Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20560 -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ecolo...@listserv.umd.edu] On Behalf Of Cara Lin Bridgman Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 5:34 AM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] THE COST OF PUBLISHING RE: [ECOLOG-L] Open Access and Intellectual Imperialism One snag with this is the language barrier for those writing papers in their second or third language: English. I'm working hard to get my Taiwanese students to attend and follow directions, but it is an uphill battle. Some authors are just going to need some help. CL malcolm McCallum wrote: we are working to shift most of the formatting to the authors, but this requires VERY GOOD directions! ~~ Cara Lin Bridgman cara@msa.hinet.net P.O. Box 013 Shinjhuang http://megaview.com.tw/~caralin Longjing Township http://www.BugDorm.com Taichung County 43499 TaiwanPhone: 886-4-2632-5484 ~~
Re: [ECOLOG-L] THE COST OF PUBLISHING RE: [ECOLOG-L] Open Access and Intellectual Imperialism
Actually, I'm running into another problem. My name can look Chinese, especially my middle name: Lin. When my Taiwanese colleagues and I co-author a paper and send it off for review, it's almost as though the default comment of reviewers is that, since the authors are all Taiwanese, the English must need improving or 'the manuscript ... is extremely rough.' Like James Roper, I've spent much of my time over the past 20 years revising and editing my colleagues' papers. This can include a lot of rewriting, even second-guessing the authors' intended meaning. In many cases, I have to discuss things with the authors (usually via email). I, too, have noticed that revisions by non-biologists or non-native English speakers tend to be poor. To my students, I routinely have to emphasize that computer generated translations are garbage--sometimes, however, this is because of fuzzy thinking in the original Chinese. CL who routinely gets email notices from Chinese (PROC) translation companies offering to help translate her papers into English:) ~~ Cara Lin Bridgman cara@msa.hinet.net P.O. Box 013 Shinjhuang http://megaview.com.tw/~caralin Longjing Township http://www.BugDorm.com Taichung County 43499 TaiwanPhone: 886-4-2632-5484 ~~
Re: [ECOLOG-L] THE COST OF PUBLISHING RE: [ECOLOG-L] Open Access and Intellectual Imperialism
One snag with this is the language barrier for those writing papers in their second or third language: English. I'm working hard to get my Taiwanese students to attend and follow directions, but it is an uphill battle. Some authors are just going to need some help. CL malcolm McCallum wrote: we are working to shift most of the formatting to the authors, but this requires VERY GOOD directions! ~~ Cara Lin Bridgman cara@msa.hinet.net P.O. Box 013 Shinjhuang http://megaview.com.tw/~caralin Longjing Township http://www.BugDorm.com Taichung County 43499 TaiwanPhone: 886-4-2632-5484 ~~
[ECOLOG-L] THE COST OF PUBLISHING RE: [ECOLOG-L] Open Access and Intellectual Imperialism
Regarding the open access issue recently covered in Ecolog-L, let's go back to square one. Consider a tenure-track field-oriented research scientist in the USA. How many times does he/she pay for the paper published in a peer-review journal? Let's follow the basic steps.Assuming the federal research grant/s were written, submitted, and against all odds (considering the current funding situation) funded. Out of the research grant monies, you have to: 1) pay your own salary, so you can do the research and submit the publications.2) pay salary/ies to postdocs/grad students to do fieldwork, and part of research and publications3) pay fieldwork expenses (including instruments, equipment, etc)4) pay overhead to university, so among other things, university can afford institutional subscription to scientific journals and provide journal access to faculty and students5) pay submission costs to journals if printing in color, for open access availability (for those journals that are not open access) or pay for submission in open access journal that requires fee.6) in many cases, pay additional fee so you can have your own pdf of your own publication Of course, this is just an example of many possible alternatives. However, there is an interesting trend. From conceptual research idea to final publication in peer-review journal, tax dollars pay the process many times over...Perhaps we should re-think the whole process.Am I the only one who thinks we can do better than this? Sarah Frias-Torres, Ph.D. Marine Conservation Biologist
Re: [ECOLOG-L] THE COST OF PUBLISHING RE: [ECOLOG-L] Open Access and Intellectual Imperialism
You can. Duplicate our effort http:/www.herpconbio.org but it means someone has to do the work that the publishers do, we are working to shift most of the formatting to the authors, but this requires VERY GOOD directions! On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Sarah Frias-Torres sfrias_tor...@hotmail.com wrote: Regarding the open access issue recently covered in Ecolog-L, let's go back to square one. Consider a tenure-track field-oriented research scientist in the USA. How many times does he/she pay for the paper published in a peer-review journal? Let's follow the basic steps.Assuming the federal research grant/s were written, submitted, and against all odds (considering the current funding situation) funded. Out of the research grant monies, you have to: 1) pay your own salary, so you can do the research and submit the publications.2) pay salary/ies to postdocs/grad students to do fieldwork, and part of research and publications3) pay fieldwork expenses (including instruments, equipment, etc)4) pay overhead to university, so among other things, university can afford institutional subscription to scientific journals and provide journal access to faculty and students5) pay submission costs to journals if printing in color, for open access availability (for those journals that are not open access) or pay for submission in open access journal that requires fee.6) in many cases, pay additional fee so you can have your own pdf of your own publication Of course, this is just an example of many possible alternatives. However, there is an interesting trend. From conceptual research idea to final publication in peer-review journal, tax dollars pay the process many times over...Perhaps we should re-think the whole process.Am I the only one who thinks we can do better than this? Sarah Frias-Torres, Ph.D. Marine Conservation Biologist -- Malcolm L. McCallum Associate Professor of Biology Texas AM University-Texarkana Editor, Herpetological Conservation and Biology http://www.herpconbio.org http://www.twitter.com/herpconbio Fall Teaching Schedule Office Hours: Landscape Ecology: T,R 10-11:40 pm Environmental Physiology: MW 1-2:40 pm Seminar: T 2:30-3:30pm Genetics: M 6-10pm Office Hours: M 3-6, T: 12-2, W: 3-4 1880's: There's lots of good fish in the sea W.S. Gilbert 1990's: Many fish stocks depleted due to overfishing, habitat loss, and pollution. 2000: Marine reserves, ecosystem restoration, and pollution reduction MAY help restore populations. 2022: Soylent Green is People! Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.
