> Dr. Toby Donaldson:
> There are definitely some who prefer Java,
My friend Gerald would count as one. He wrote close-to-the-metal C for
years, and despaired of finding a language that'd be up to realizing his day
dreams, inspired by Snelson, then Fuller (he called it Elastic Interval
Geometr
> I have in recent years taught Python, Scheme (DrScheme), ML (SML),
> SmallTalk (Squeak), and Prolog (SWI) to college seniors in a
> Programming Languages course. Without any scientific "evidence", I can
> only tell you that they *loved* Python and tolerated the rest. But of
> course, how this wou
>From: Kirby Urner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>> Python had the choice to be case insensitive and in some parallel
>> universemaybe it is. It wouldn't have been a lesser language,
>> just a slightly different one.
And in it, the parallel edu-sig is discussing the fact that
Middle Schoolers are getti
- Original Message -
From: Kirby Urner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Python had the choice to be case insensitive and in some parallel
> universemaybe it is. It wouldn't have been a lesser language,
> just a slightly
> different one.
No argument, believe it or not.
Art
_
> Someone loses.
>
> Art
>
It's possible to have good programming tools which ignore case.
FoxPro ignores case, http ignores case (e.g. wWW.PYthon.ORg works fine).
Note that "case insensitive" doesn't mean the *human reader* has to ignore
case, e.g. I might use all caps for a constant, eve
- Original Message -
From: Scott David Daniels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, October 20, 2005 11:51 am
Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Python as a first language for computer sciencist
> OK, here's the other side of that coin: unit tests are just as
> malleableas the rest
>. The advantage of a case-
> insensitive language is that when we are taught to read, we
> are taught that, for
> example, "f" and "F" are the same letter. Eventually we
> learn that.
I have had problems with that argument. We learn that they are
the same letter, *different cases*.
On 20Oct 2005, at 3:38 PM, Chuck Allison wrote:
>
> RS> A highly intelligent programmer can do better with a dumb
> compiler, than
> RS> a dumb programmer with a highly intelligent compiler.
>
> Great quote! May I reuse it?
Sure. Say no to intelectual property, unless it becomes property of
RS> A highly intelligent programmer can do better with a dumb compiler, than
RS> a dumb programmer with a highly intelligent compiler.
Great quote! May I reuse it?
>> If I were to teach a class to middle-schoolers or high-schoolers
>> (which I hope to do soon), Python probably wouldn't be my fir
Arthur wrote:
>>>[ Mark Engelberg ]:
>>>
2. My teaching experience is limited, but I did teach one programming
class to a group of middle-schoolers. The most common mistake was, by
far, simple misspellings of variable names (usually capitalization
confusion)
>
> BTW, I can pr
Hey Mark, good stuff.
I'll respond to abbreviated versions to your points.
> A few responses:
>
> 1. I'm not saying that Python is infeasible as an introductory
> language.
And in point of fact, it's used in this way by an increasing number of
schools. For many of us, the judgment has alread
Arthur wrote:
> ... I believe students looking to construct a Triangle should *not* be
> thinking about API issues.
>
> You are making them make-believe, solve problems *they* don't have. Let
> them solve the problems they *do* have. Like understanding a triangle, units
> of measure, hundreds o
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Arthur
> > [ Mark Engelberg ]:
> > > 2. My teaching experience is limited, but I did teach one programming
> > > class to a group of middle-schoolers. The most common mistake was, by
> > > far, simple misspellings of variable na
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Rodrigo Senra
> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:26 AM
> To: Mark Engelberg
> Cc: edu-sig@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Python as a first language for computer sci
[ Mark Engelberg ]:
> 2. My teaching experience is limited, but I did teach one programming
> class to a group of middle-schoolers. The most common mistake was, by
> far, simple misspellings of variable names (usually capitalization
> confusion). When a compiler catches this, it's no big deal.
I've had the opposite problem that you mention teaching the grade school
aged. That is to say they greatly prefer a language which does not
raise syntax errors when they mistype variable names to one that does.
They are interested in a language that 'always does something'.
The notion that you h
> Very rigorous of you, but I doubt you will be talking to *them*.
>
> Art
>
We'll see. I need more field experience, to find out what works. I'll let
you know how it goes when I get to Day 4.
Quoting from my current class outline:
===
Day 4: Programming Functions
Now that we have
Lots of interesting comments.
A few responses:
1. I'm not saying that Python is infeasible as an introductory
language. One of the things I really like about the idea of Python
for educational purposes is that you can do complex things fairly
simply, and at the end of the course, you have also
> -Original Message-
> From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> assert 4 == add2(2)
>
> OK, *now* write add2 (write a test *first*!).
>
> I plan to explain to students that this is a purposely extreme philosophy,
> and it grew up in tandem with increased emphasis on runtime chec
> I am certainly not saying it is not important. In fact, in my way, quite
> the opposite.
>
> Art
>
I'm sure you're aware of the XP approach: write a test, just a simple one,
showing what you want your function to do:
assert 4 == add2(2)
OK, *now* write add2 (write a test *first*!).
I plan
> But that's probably a few years in.
>
> Art
>
>
My inclination is to introduce testing pretty early, treating tests like
comments -- a good habit, supporting what in some situations is essential
practice.
Unit testing frameworks tend to be overkill though, on a first pass. I was
thinking mo
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Arthur
> When students have something substantial enough, and intricate enough,
> where
> unit testing is a real solution to a real problem - yes.
>
> But that's probably a few years in.
Just as I
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Arthur
> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:19 PM
> To: 'Kirby Urner'; 'Mark Engelberg'; edu-sig@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Python as a first lan
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:edu-sig-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kirby Urner
> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 7:14 PM
> To: 'Mark Engelberg'; edu-sig@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Python as a first language for comp
Wednesday, October 19, 2005, 5:25:14 PM, you wrote:
CA> Hello Rodrigo,
CA> Wednesday, October 19, 2005, 3:00:34 PM, you wrote:
>>> I'm undecided about how useful Python would be as an educational
>>> tool.
RS>> I, amongst others, have given a speech in the last Europython
RS>> (Sweden 2005)
On 10/19/05, Chuck Allison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have not mentioned it here, but I taught both C++ and Python at
> Symantec this past summer. I wrote an article about it:
> (http://www.artima.com/simple.html). I was amazed at what we
> accomplished with Python. And I'm a C++ guy. And a vet
Hello Rodrigo,
Wednesday, October 19, 2005, 3:00:34 PM, you wrote:
>> I'm undecided about how useful Python would be as an educational
>> tool.
RS> I, amongst others, have given a speech in the last Europython
RS> (Sweden 2005) about that. IMHO, Python allows the students to feel
RS> success
> On 10/19/05, Kirby Urner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Technically speaking, there's no mistake here. The coder created a
> > local variable that went out of scope. He could always say "I meant
> > to do that."
>
> Well, that's the point. Python doesn't recognize it as a mistake.
> Clearly,
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Arthur
> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 6:23 PM
> To: 'Brad Miller'; 'Mark Engelberg'
> >
> > I understand that you see this as a risk, and as a downside to using
> > Python. However, I rarely see
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Brad Miller
>
> I understand that you see this as a risk, and as a downside to using
> Python. However, I rarely see these kinds of errors in the programs
> that my students are writing in CS1 and CS
[ Brad Miller ]
>
> I'm curious to hear from others that use Python for introductory
> computer science. How often do these 'semantic bugs' crop up for
> your students?
Brad,
at the time I was teaching undergraduate courses that was not an issue,
mainly because Python has such wonderful debuggi
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of Mark Engelberg
> Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Python as a first language for computer
sciencist
> In my mind, one important feature of a first programming language is
> that it must
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On Oct 19, 2005, at 3:07 PM, Mark Engelberg wrote:
> On 10/19/05, Kirby Urner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Technically speaking, there's no mistake here. The coder created
>> a local
>> variable that went out of scope. He could always say "I m
Mark writes -
> This is not a desirable trait in a "first programming language" for
> teaching computer science.
Because we need to teach the programmers early on that they are not
responsible for their mistakes? It's the tool's fault.
Not sure why that line of reasoning gets to me the way it
[ Mark Engelberg ]:
> P.S. For what it's worth, Python is the language I choose to use on a
> daily basis, because I mainly write short programs to analyze various
> puzzles I'm working on. It's a great tool for fast and practical
> programming.
Indeed.
> But I think it would be very hard to w
On 10/19/05, Mark Engelberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This is not a desirable trait in a "first programming language" for
> teaching computer science.
There are many desirable and undesirable traits for "first programming
languages'. I doubt you'll find a language without undesirable traits.
Is
On 10/19/05, Kirby Urner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Technically speaking, there's no mistake here. The coder created a local
> variable that went out of scope. He could always say "I meant to do that."
Well, that's the point. Python doesn't recognize it as a mistake.
Clearly, in my example,
> I have not told them about Jython, mainly because my own impression
> was that Jython was not really going anywhere. I tried a couple of
> simple graphics programs that didn't work
>
Re Jython etc., in a pure CS context we don't have to care if the language
is dead, e.g. Algol might still
> Python falls short in this respect. Consider this program:
>
> def plus2(realNumber):
> raelNumber = realNumber+2
> return realNumber
>
IDLE 1.1
>>> def plus2(realNumber):
raelNumber = realNumber+2
return realNumber
>>> gimme = plus2(10)
>>> gimme
10
I seem to recall some externa
> Python falls short in this respect. Consider this program:
>
> def plus2(realNumber):
> raelNumber = realNumber+2
> return realNumber
>
IDLE 1.1
>>> def plus2(realNumber):
raelNumber = realNumber+2
return realNumber
>>> gimme = plus2(10)
>>> gimme
10
I seem to recall some externa
In my mind, one important feature of a first programming language is
that it must provide meaningful error messages for every common error
a student might make. Bugs that are easy to make and hard to track
down are a surefire way to turn kids off of programming.
Python falls short in this respect
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Brad Miller
> I have not told them about Jython, mainly because my own impression
> was that Jython was not really going anywhere. I tried a couple of
> simple graphics programs that didn't work
On Tue, 2005-10-18 at 15:31 -0500, Brad Miller wrote:
> I have not told them about Jython, mainly because my own impression
> was that Jython was not really going anywhere. I tried a couple of
> simple graphics programs that didn't work
>
> After reading your message I went to www.jython.
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On Oct 18, 2005, at 2:57 PM, Beni Cherniavsky wrote:
> On Mon, 2005-10-17 at 13:00 -0500, Brad Miller wrote:
>
>> [...Luther College using Python for CS1, CS2 and data structures...]
>>
>> Of course we also teach and use Java but we don't introduce o
On Mon, 2005-10-17 at 13:00 -0500, Brad Miller wrote:
> [...Luther College using Python for CS1, CS2 and data structures...]
>
> Of course we also teach and use Java but we don't introduce our
> students to Java until the third course in our introductory sequence.
> The nice thing about holding of
On Mon, 2005-10-17 at 12:11 -0700, Toby Donaldson wrote:
[snip]
> [Python]'s not so good for talking about "programming as exploiting your
> computer", i.e. when it comes time to implement an algorithm
> *efficiently*.
I know what you mean, but I think that this point can be misinterpreted
by th
> Incidentally, I think Python is a marvelous tool throughout the CS
> curriculum. It's a language that gets out of your way so that you can
> concentrate on fundamental concepts. I even use Python in my Op Systems
> class, something I'm frequently told Python isn't good for. Not true.
> Python is
Python's a good choice of language when you want to talk about
"programming as computation" to people who don't have a lot of CS or
math background. It's also good for talking about algorithm
correctness. And I use it all the time as pseudocode and one-shot
scripts.
It's not so good for talking ab
On Oct 17, 2005, at 12:45 PM, John Zelle wrote:Carlos,I doubt that you'll get much disagreement on this list about Python being an excellent first language choice. Hence, there is unlikely to be much of a "discussion." I wrote a paper titled "Python as a First Language" back in 1998, you can find
Carlos,
I doubt that you'll get much disagreement on this list about Python
being an excellent first language choice. Hence, there is unlikely to be
much of a "discussion." I wrote a paper titled "Python as a First
Language" back in 1998, you can find it at:
http://mcsp.wartburg.edu/zelle/pyt
Hi people
i was making a researching about python for computer
science students as a first language, and it coul be
good in Peruvian Universities and Colleges, may you
have some experiences, or articles or ideas about it.
Coul you send me to my personal email address.
Also I propose to you to bega
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