Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
> Lightning can’t tell whether something is grounded > because the energy pulse hasn’t gotten that far yet. [Full bottom quote follows reply.] The path for lightning is determined before the main pulse of energy loss happens, and much of the communication involved in determining the path happens at the speed of light. The actual lightning flash is a wave of energy conversion, from electrostatic, to heat (and then to sound and light). The energy to drive it is already there. It is isn't travelling down the growing bolt, but rather being taken from the volume surrounding it. In fact, the main energy conversion doesn't happen until after the complete initial path has been established and actually propagates upwards. Where it happens will be influenced by the distance between grounded conductors and the cloud, so, at the early stages, the presence of grounds (although not necessarily particularly good ones) will have an impact. However, it will also depend on the degree of corona discharge, which will depend on the sharpness of objects, as corona discharges will, effectively extend the effect of the ground into the air above the point. The whole process will be complicated, and there will be a significant random element, but the presence of grounded conductors will have an effect in the very early stages. -- David Woolley On 28/07/2023 22:46, Walter Underwood wrote: Lightning can’t tell whether something is grounded because the energy pulse hasn’t gotten that far yet. Lightning induces a current in every nearby conductor. When that pulse of current reaches a building or electronics, we want to provide a low impedance path to a safe sink (ground rods) and a high impedance path to the equipment (a choke). A lightning arrestor is a temporary low impedance path to ground for conductors that aren’t normally grounded. The best high impedance path is disconnecting your equipment. That won’t stop a direct strike, because that will induce currents in the disconnected equipment. But it will help almost all the time. Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to wun...@wunderwood.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
I have the lightning tracker apps and monitor 3 local radar locations. Also, we keep and eye to the sky and our golden retrievers can sense lightning approaching. My wife and dogs were in the yard under partly cloudy skies and little rumbles 15 to 20 miles away. A strike happened about 500 feet from the house. Pretty much out of "the blue". It was a big one. Wife and puppies came running to the back door. Be careful. 73 Bill K3SV On 7/29/2023 12:18 PM, Gary K9GS wrote: I've found this lightning tracker app to be pretty accurate. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.jrustonapps.mylightningtracker73,Gary K9GS Original message From: Drew AF2Z Date: 7/29/23 10:48 AM (GMT-06:00) To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning I keep a close watch on the weather during lightning season here. Also, I often have the AM broadcast band on and, depending on the distance and power output of various stations, can hear the lightning strikes as they build into the region.In the shack I watch the realtime lightning map at lightningmaps.org which is also a useful tool to let you know when you might want to start shutting down. When lightning activity is getting close you can hear a strike on the radio and see it appear moments later on the map.73,DrewAF2ZOn 07/28/23 18:04, Keith Trinity WE6R wrote:> Please, PLEASE disconnect your COMPUTER from your radio(s) if lightning > is in the area!> > Almost ALWAYS lightning damaged gear that comes in for repair, was hit > _thru the comm port!_> (lightning hits Cable/DSL lines).> > As far as repairs I see, it is not common for it to be damaged from > lightning coming in the antenna.> > It usually gets to your computer, then radio gear.> > A direct hit however, and all bets are off. I've seen it come in/out via > DC, keyer, PTT IN, even the ground lug, IE anything metal.> > Keith WE6R Elecraft K3/K4 Tech> > __> Elecraft mailing list> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html> Message delivered to pubx1@af2z.net__Elecraft mailing listHome: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraftHelp: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htmPost: mailto:elecr...@mailman.qth.netThis list hosted by: http://www.qsl.netPlease help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.htmlMessage delivered to k...@gjschwartz.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to k...@pa.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
I've found this lightning tracker app to be pretty accurate. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.jrustonapps.mylightningtracker73,Gary K9GS Original message From: Drew AF2Z Date: 7/29/23 10:48 AM (GMT-06:00) To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning I keep a close watch on the weather during lightning season here. Also, I often have the AM broadcast band on and, depending on the distance and power output of various stations, can hear the lightning strikes as they build into the region.In the shack I watch the realtime lightning map at lightningmaps.org which is also a useful tool to let you know when you might want to start shutting down. When lightning activity is getting close you can hear a strike on the radio and see it appear moments later on the map.73,DrewAF2ZOn 07/28/23 18:04, Keith Trinity WE6R wrote:> Please, PLEASE disconnect your COMPUTER from your radio(s) if lightning > is in the area!> > Almost ALWAYS lightning damaged gear that comes in for repair, was hit > _thru the comm port!_> (lightning hits Cable/DSL lines).> > As far as repairs I see, it is not common for it to be damaged from > lightning coming in the antenna.> > It usually gets to your computer, then radio gear.> > A direct hit however, and all bets are off. I've seen it come in/out via > DC, keyer, PTT IN, even the ground lug, IE anything metal.> > Keith WE6R Elecraft K3/K4 Tech> > __> Elecraft mailing list> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html> Message delivered to pubx1@af2z.net__Elecraft mailing listHome: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraftHelp: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htmPost: mailto:elecr...@mailman.qth.netThis list hosted by: http://www.qsl.netPlease help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.htmlMessage delivered to k...@gjschwartz.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
I keep a close watch on the weather during lightning season here. Also, I often have the AM broadcast band on and, depending on the distance and power output of various stations, can hear the lightning strikes as they build into the region. In the shack I watch the realtime lightning map at lightningmaps.org which is also a useful tool to let you know when you might want to start shutting down. When lightning activity is getting close you can hear a strike on the radio and see it appear moments later on the map. 73, Drew AF2Z On 07/28/23 18:04, Keith Trinity WE6R wrote: Please, PLEASE disconnect your COMPUTER from your radio(s) if lightning is in the area! Almost ALWAYS lightning damaged gear that comes in for repair, was hit _thru the comm port!_ (lightning hits Cable/DSL lines). As far as repairs I see, it is not common for it to be damaged from lightning coming in the antenna. It usually gets to your computer, then radio gear. A direct hit however, and all bets are off. I've seen it come in/out via DC, keyer, PTT IN, even the ground lug, IE anything metal. Keith WE6R Elecraft K3/K4 Tech __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to pu...@af2z.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
Just take note the link to the R56 manual is for a manual from 2005. Most of the principals have not changed but there have been changes to it over the last 18 years. (“Lessons learned” applied). 73 Dave wo2x (ex Motorolan) Sent from my iPad > On Jul 29, 2023, at 10:32 AM, Alan Bloom wrote: > > Hi Al, > > The "Bible" on this subject that has been used for many years by the > telecommunications industry is Motorola's "R56, Standards and Guidelines for > Communications Sites": > > https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/Lands_ROW_Motorola_R56_2005_manual.pdf > > It's kind of complicated, but it's what you have to do if you really want to > protect your site. Of special interest are Chapter 4 "External Grounding > (Earthing)", Chapter 5 "Internal Grounding (Earthing)", and Chapter 7 "Surge > Protective Devices". > > Alan N1AL > > >> On 7/28/2023 10:31 PM, Al Lorona wrote: >> Please don't laugh at me; I'm a transplant from a region of the country with >> essentially no lightning to a region where you have to worry about it quite >> a bit. >> >> We had a doozy of a storm last night, with lots of lightning overhead. I >> felt like a sitting duck, even though I had grounded both sides of the >> balanced feedline of the antenna, switched the antenna switch to the middle >> (grounded) position, and even disconnected the coax leading to the K3's >> rear-panel antenna port. >> >> Whenever lightning happens, I always wonder if it really is in fact better >> to ground everything. Because, doesn't that essentially make a lightning rod >> of the antenna? If I simply disconnected the antenna and left it floating, >> wouldn't it be less likely to attract a lightning bolt? >> >> I'm of the belief that it's better to try to avoid a direct hit than to >> attract one and trust your grounding system to do its thing. I'm of the >> belief that no grounding system is perfectly effective. >> >> Al W6LX/4 >> >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> Message delivered to a...@elecraft.com >> > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to rocke...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
Hi Al, The "Bible" on this subject that has been used for many years by the telecommunications industry is Motorola's "R56, Standards and Guidelines for Communications Sites": https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/Lands_ROW_Motorola_R56_2005_manual.pdf It's kind of complicated, but it's what you have to do if you really want to protect your site. Of special interest are Chapter 4 "External Grounding (Earthing)", Chapter 5 "Internal Grounding (Earthing)", and Chapter 7 "Surge Protective Devices". Alan N1AL On 7/28/2023 10:31 PM, Al Lorona wrote: Please don't laugh at me; I'm a transplant from a region of the country with essentially no lightning to a region where you have to worry about it quite a bit. We had a doozy of a storm last night, with lots of lightning overhead. I felt like a sitting duck, even though I had grounded both sides of the balanced feedline of the antenna, switched the antenna switch to the middle (grounded) position, and even disconnected the coax leading to the K3's rear-panel antenna port. Whenever lightning happens, I always wonder if it really is in fact better to ground everything. Because, doesn't that essentially make a lightning rod of the antenna? If I simply disconnected the antenna and left it floating, wouldn't it be less likely to attract a lightning bolt? I'm of the belief that it's better to try to avoid a direct hit than to attract one and trust your grounding system to do its thing. I'm of the belief that no grounding system is perfectly effective. Al W6LX/4 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to a...@elecraft.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
Protecting your equipment goes beyond a direct strike. I had an element in my K3 transmit final wiped out by a lightning strike a good distance away. I wasn't on the air at the time but I remember the strike. This was through a pair of Alpha-Delta switches. Sometimes I miss "the good old days" of vacuum tube rigs when I operated during thunderstorms ;-) Ken WA8JXM On Fri, Jul 28, 2023 at 7:31 PM Ray Maxfield wrote: > I worked a Number of Years as a Broadcast Engineer. > The Broadcast Industry has Put this one to bed years ago. > No Need to re-invent the Wheel. Yes, it will Cost some Dollars > to do it Right, but it can save YOUR Equipment. > Ray WA6VAB K3 > > > On Fri, Jul 28, 2023 at 3:51 PM Rick NK7I wrote: > > > We're in accord on static. Like lightning, give it someplace to go > > OUTSIDE, not via the shack/structure. Not just for noise but the > > voltages can be astoundingly high with enough amperage to cause harm. > > > > [A local puts his feeds in a glass jar then is amused at the glow of > > discharge, contained. But that is FAR from the only wire exposed. > > > > These are complex topics that few can translate well to low dollars > > (hams) and better understanding. > > > > It would have been fun to draw on that lunch crowd discussion. > > > > The only true axiom is that if you don't have enough shunting, lightning > > will be happy to show you what you missed. (Antenna didn't fall over? > > It's not big enough!). > > > > 73 Bill, > > Rick nk7i > > > > > > On 7/28/2023 3:36 PM, Dr. William J. Schmidt wrote: > > > I worked at Honeywell defense systems in the early 80's and I had two > > guys (Ph.D's from MIT) working in the office next to me that were experts > > in Meteorology... specifically the study of lightning. I would eat lunch > > with them because they were "interesting" to say the least. When they > > found out I was a ham and asking them about lightning protection they > > laughed hysterically. Over their tenure they schooled me on my lack of > > knowledge in their area and beat into me immense gravity and consequences > > of a major lightning strike. Imaginable voltages and currents. You can > > prepare but you will never be sure. > > > > > > Static is something else. All of the antennas I design and implement > > have GROUNDED elements or static chokes to ground to reduce static to a > > minimum. You learn this with experience. > > > > > > > > > Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net < > elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net> > > On Behalf Of Rick NK7I > > > Sent: Friday, July 28, 2023 4:42 PM > > > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning > > > > > > Not often (enough) does a ham have a 100'+ tower either. > > > > > > THE standard (of way so many to choose from) is from the cell phone > > industry (Motorola mostly). It's insanely complex but if you're on a > > mountain top and need 100% reliability; ideal. The costs, will be a > second > > mortgage so some compromises will have to happen. > > > > > > Here is a better link to the current (newest edition) of the ARRL book; > > at least a good starting point for a baseline understanding. Direct > hits, > > no matter what system/s used, will always show what you missed or didn't > do > > enough to mitigate. > > > > > > https://a.co/d/01vRC1W > > > > > > Another aspect is static reduction. That comes from wind, rain, dust, > > snow, anything that passes by the structure. Shunt all to ground OUTside > > the building is the best approach. (Base of the tower/mast and again at > > structure entry; make EVERYTHING at the same ground potential, inside and > > out. When you take a hit, that potential rises, equally if all is done > > well; it's the difference in potential that harms.) > > > > > > 73, > > > Rick nk7i > > > > > > On 7/28/2023 2:31 PM, Dr. William J. Schmidt wrote: > > >> Even the methods in that book are considered sub-standard by the > > broadcast industry... The only think that is a sure bet is to completely > > disconnect your radio and put it back in the shipping box. > > >> > > >> > > >> Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ > > >> > > >> email: b...@wjschmidt.com > > >> > > >>
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
Very good point. I fhave a grounded entrance panel with appropriate suppressors for power, rotor, and antenna feeds. Everything metal, including my operating desk is connected to this panel and bonded together. I have installed a wifi-to-ethernet bridge on my desk to establish an air gap between the router and my computer and other equipment that require wired internet service. The idea is to insure that if high voltages are induced on wires connected to my equipment, there won't be big potential DIFFERENCES between (for example) the computer and the radio. 73, Victor, 4X6GP Rehovot, Israel formerly K2VCO CWops no. 5 http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/ On 29/07/2023 1:04, Keith Trinity WE6R wrote: Please, PLEASE disconnect your COMPUTER from your radio(s) if lightning is in the area! Almost ALWAYS lightning damaged gear that comes in for repair, was hit _thru the comm port!_ (lightning hits Cable/DSL lines). As far as repairs I see, it is not common for it to be damaged from lightning coming in the antenna. It usually gets to your computer, then radio gear. A direct hit however, and all bets are off. I've seen it come in/out via DC, keyer, PTT IN, even the ground lug, IE anything metal. Keith WE6R Elecraft K3/K4 Tech __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to k2vco@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
On 7/28/2023 5:46 PM, Tom Doligalski via Elecraft wrote: Turned out when the cable was brought into the house many years ago the installer failed to adequately ground at the entry point In the home I bought here in W6, power, CATV, and telco terminate at the same point. That's a good thing. The only attempt at an earth electrode was about 35 ft of bare (#10?) copper (subsequently painted with the house) that wandered to the outlet for a garden hose, which was fed by PVC pipe. So the system had no ground. They did slightly better in the mother-in-law garage apartment building that now houses my shack. The same bare copper, again painted, ran from that building's sub-panel, up into the attic, across to the other side of the building, where it snaked along framing and a window frame, where it finally was connected to a driven rod, the only one on the property. There were other glaring wiring errors, including 120V outlets in a half-kitchen/laundry room fed between phase and green. There was a generator in a nice little doghouse, with manual transfer switches, but the generator was missing lots of parts, so it could not possibly have run. And a company got paid to inspect the place on my behalf (I lived in Chicago at the time). This turkey found a list of dumb stuff, like dimensions of exterior steps, but nary a word about electrical. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
A very significant thing I remember that's new/significantly expanded in the second edition is to address a shack on a higher floor or otherwise non-ideally located. Other issues like that. A lot of little stuff, like responding to questions Ward had heard when he did talks to clubs and at conventions. And like most good writers, tweaking language to make things more clear. 73, Jim K9YC On 7/28/2023 5:41 PM, Russ Tobolic wrote: I have the first edition of the ARRL book. What is significant about the second edition that is different from the earlier edition? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
FYI.. https://www.repeater-builder.com/tech-info/bonding/amateur-radio-bonding.html wa6vab Ray K3 On Fri, Jul 28, 2023 at 5:59 PM David Gilbert wrote: > > I suspect that is the rule rather than the exception. I have seen > several satellite and cable TV installations where the installer didn't > bother to ground back to the service entrance and instead simply drove a > short rod into the ground at a point closest to the cable gear. > > Dave AB7E > > > > On 7/28/2023 5:46 PM, Tom Doligalski via Elecraft wrote: > > > > Turned out when the cable was brought into the house many years ago the > > installer failed to adequately ground at the entry point > > > > > > Tom W4KX > > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to wa6...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
I suspect that is the rule rather than the exception. I have seen several satellite and cable TV installations where the installer didn't bother to ground back to the service entrance and instead simply drove a short rod into the ground at a point closest to the cable gear. Dave AB7E On 7/28/2023 5:46 PM, Tom Doligalski via Elecraft wrote: Turned out when the cable was brought into the house many years ago the installer failed to adequately ground at the entry point Tom W4KX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
Exactly what happened to me: the strike came in on the cable line, took out the TV, the cable modem, the router, the computer hard-wired to the router (via ethernet), then to my poor K3 via the RS232 line. Turned out when the cable was brought into the house many years ago the installer failed to adequately ground at the entry point Radios and computers in the shack now connect wirelessly... Tom W4KX > -Original Message- > From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net boun...@mailman.qth.net> On Behalf Of Keith Trinity WE6R > Sent: Friday, July 28, 2023 6:05 PM > To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning > > Please, PLEASE disconnect your COMPUTER from your radio(s) if lightning is in > the area! > > Almost ALWAYS lightning damaged gear that comes in for repair, was hit _thru > the comm port!_ (lightning hits Cable/DSL lines). > > As far as repairs I see, it is not common for it to be damaged from lightning > coming in the antenna. > > It usually gets to your computer, then radio gear. > > A direct hit however, and all bets are off. I've seen it come in/out via DC, keyer, > PTT IN, even the ground lug, IE anything metal. > > Keith WE6R Elecraft K3/K4 Tech > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message > delivered to w...@mac.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
I have the first edition of the ARRL book. What is significant about the second edition that is different from the earlier edition? Russ, N3CO Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Fri, Jul 28, 2023 at 7:14 PM, Jim Brown wrote: On 7/28/2023 1:31 PM, Al Lorona wrote: > Please don't laugh at me; I'm a transplant from a region of the country with > essentially no lightning to a region where you have to worry about it quite a > bit. The answer is, as KK9A said, to follow proper grounding and bonding to the letter. N0AX's ARRL Book on the topic, to which I contributed, is excellent. You want the Second Edition, published about a year ago. The book also references the slide deck for my tutorial talks. Don't let "audio" in the link fool you -- it's all about grounding and bonding in the shack for lightning protection and to minimize RFI. http://k9yc.com/GroundingAndAudio.pdf On 7/28/2023 3:04 PM, Keith Trinity WE6R wrote: > Please, PLEASE disconnect your COMPUTER from your radio(s) if lightning > is in the area! > > Almost ALWAYS lightning damaged gear that comes in for repair, was hit > _thru the comm port!_ > (lightning hits Cable/DSL lines). This is the result of failure to follow proper grounding and bonding, and the failure of equipment mfrs to properly bond cable shields to the chassis at the point of entry. That failure to common to all ham mfrs, including Elecraft. This construction error was first addressed in 1994 by a ham working in pro audio, Neil Muncy, ex-W3WJE (SK), and he called it "The Pin One Problem," because Pin 1 of the XLR connectors used to carry balanced audio is the shield contact. I addressed it beginning on page 5 of this RFI tutorial, which started out life in 2007. k9yc.com/RFI-Ham.pdf A major contributor to that lightning damage are the MOV-based surge protectors provide power to interconnected equipment. The MOVs short to the green wire; the IR drop in the green wire from that current spike raises the reference potential for equipment plugged into it, and the difference between that and the chassis of interconnected equipment that's grounded somewhere else fries the interconnected circuitry. We started seeing this in pro audio systems in the early '90s, with no antennas involved. The solution was elimination of those MOV protectors, replacing them with series-mode units that stored surge in a monster inductor, then discharged it slowly as a trickle after the strike had passed. A colleague blew out the Ethernet ports of computers in his small design office from exactly this mechanism. Again, no antennas were involved. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to eru...@yahoo.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
> On Jul 28, 2023, at 17:13, Jim Brown wrote: > > On 7/28/2023 1:31 PM, Al Lorona wrote: >> Please don't laugh at me; I'm a transplant from a region of the country with >> essentially no lightning to a region where you have to worry about it quite >> a bit. > > The answer is, as KK9A said, to follow proper grounding and bonding to the > letter. N0AX's ARRL Book on the topic, to which I contributed, is excellent. > You want the Second Edition, published about a year ago. The book also > references the slide deck for my tutorial talks. Don't let "audio" in the > link fool you -- it's all about grounding and bonding in the shack for > lightning protection and to minimize RFI. > > http://k9yc.com/GroundingAndAudio.pdf Good suggestions, but there is never enough protection. Best to have a “defense in depth” strategy. > > On 7/28/2023 3:04 PM, Keith Trinity WE6R wrote: > > Please, PLEASE disconnect your COMPUTER from your radio(s) if lightning > > is in the area! > > > > Almost ALWAYS lightning damaged gear that comes in for repair, was hit > > _thru the comm port!_ > > (lightning hits Cable/DSL lines). > > This is the result of failure to follow proper grounding and bonding, and the > failure of equipment mfrs to properly bond cable shields to the chassis at > the point of entry. That failure to common to all ham mfrs, including > Elecraft. This construction error was first addressed in 1994 by a ham > working in pro audio, Neil Muncy, ex-W3WJE (SK), and he called it "The Pin > One Problem," because Pin 1 of the XLR connectors used to carry balanced > audio is the shield contact. I addressed it beginning on page 5 of this RFI > tutorial, which started out life in 2007. > > k9yc.com/RFI-Ham.pdf Also good suggestions. Additionally, go to Amazon and get a USB isolator. This breaks the ground connection between the computer and the radio. Again, defense in depth. > > A major contributor to that lightning damage are the MOV-based surge > protectors provide power to interconnected equipment. The MOVs short to the > green wire; the IR drop in the green wire from that current spike raises the > reference potential for equipment plugged into it, and the difference between > that and the chassis of interconnected equipment that's grounded somewhere > else fries the interconnected circuitry. We started seeing this in pro audio > systems in the early '90s, with no antennas involved. The solution was > elimination of those MOV protectors, replacing them with series-mode units > that stored surge in a monster inductor, then discharged it slowly as a > trickle after the strike had passed. > > A colleague blew out the Ethernet ports of computers in his small design > office from exactly this mechanism. Again, no antennas were involved. Yes that is true too. You can also get an ethernet lightning protector which has surge protectors in it (gas discharge tubes, not MOVs). You need to have a ground return for it to be effective so back to the grounding that Jim is talking about. Oh, disconnect the radio. 73, Chuck K0MV > > 73, Jim K9YC > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to k...@altaeng.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
I worked a Number of Years as a Broadcast Engineer. The Broadcast Industry has Put this one to bed years ago. No Need to re-invent the Wheel. Yes, it will Cost some Dollars to do it Right, but it can save YOUR Equipment. Ray WA6VAB K3 On Fri, Jul 28, 2023 at 3:51 PM Rick NK7I wrote: > We're in accord on static. Like lightning, give it someplace to go > OUTSIDE, not via the shack/structure. Not just for noise but the > voltages can be astoundingly high with enough amperage to cause harm. > > [A local puts his feeds in a glass jar then is amused at the glow of > discharge, contained. But that is FAR from the only wire exposed. > > These are complex topics that few can translate well to low dollars > (hams) and better understanding. > > It would have been fun to draw on that lunch crowd discussion. > > The only true axiom is that if you don't have enough shunting, lightning > will be happy to show you what you missed. (Antenna didn't fall over? > It's not big enough!). > > 73 Bill, > Rick nk7i > > > On 7/28/2023 3:36 PM, Dr. William J. Schmidt wrote: > > I worked at Honeywell defense systems in the early 80's and I had two > guys (Ph.D's from MIT) working in the office next to me that were experts > in Meteorology... specifically the study of lightning. I would eat lunch > with them because they were "interesting" to say the least. When they > found out I was a ham and asking them about lightning protection they > laughed hysterically. Over their tenure they schooled me on my lack of > knowledge in their area and beat into me immense gravity and consequences > of a major lightning strike. Imaginable voltages and currents. You can > prepare but you will never be sure. > > > > Static is something else. All of the antennas I design and implement > have GROUNDED elements or static chokes to ground to reduce static to a > minimum. You learn this with experience. > > > > > > Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net > On Behalf Of Rick NK7I > > Sent: Friday, July 28, 2023 4:42 PM > > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning > > > > Not often (enough) does a ham have a 100'+ tower either. > > > > THE standard (of way so many to choose from) is from the cell phone > industry (Motorola mostly). It's insanely complex but if you're on a > mountain top and need 100% reliability; ideal. The costs, will be a second > mortgage so some compromises will have to happen. > > > > Here is a better link to the current (newest edition) of the ARRL book; > at least a good starting point for a baseline understanding. Direct hits, > no matter what system/s used, will always show what you missed or didn't do > enough to mitigate. > > > > https://a.co/d/01vRC1W > > > > Another aspect is static reduction. That comes from wind, rain, dust, > snow, anything that passes by the structure. Shunt all to ground OUTside > the building is the best approach. (Base of the tower/mast and again at > structure entry; make EVERYTHING at the same ground potential, inside and > out. When you take a hit, that potential rises, equally if all is done > well; it's the difference in potential that harms.) > > > > 73, > > Rick nk7i > > > > On 7/28/2023 2:31 PM, Dr. William J. Schmidt wrote: > >> Even the methods in that book are considered sub-standard by the > broadcast industry... The only think that is a sure bet is to completely > disconnect your radio and put it back in the shipping box. > >> > >> > >> Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ > >> > >> email: b...@wjschmidt.com > >> > >> > >> -Original Message- > >> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net > >> > >> Sent: Friday, July 28, 2023 4:14 PM > >> To: j...@kk9a.com > >> Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning > >> > >> > >> https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L=DChcSEwiOk5PAqLKA > >> AxUjEa0GHYmDBJgYABACGgJwdg=2=www.google.com=CAASJORo_AZEA > >> zrEwZh7d0CRaunieFV8dsSC3IDZqsPWbucgX_uNKQ=AOD64_1qxgTjvgwY4_QbQuPW > >> 5KxSnoObmA=2ahUKEwiEsI3AqLKAAxViAjQIHe9mC-UQ0Qx6BAgOEAE > >> > >> Welcome to the Bible of grounding. It’ll take several reads to grasp > what you have to do. > >> > >> 73, > >> Rick NK7I > >> > >> > >>> On Jul 28, 2023, at 2:11 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote: > >>> > >>&
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
On 7/28/2023 1:31 PM, Al Lorona wrote: Please don't laugh at me; I'm a transplant from a region of the country with essentially no lightning to a region where you have to worry about it quite a bit. The answer is, as KK9A said, to follow proper grounding and bonding to the letter. N0AX's ARRL Book on the topic, to which I contributed, is excellent. You want the Second Edition, published about a year ago. The book also references the slide deck for my tutorial talks. Don't let "audio" in the link fool you -- it's all about grounding and bonding in the shack for lightning protection and to minimize RFI. http://k9yc.com/GroundingAndAudio.pdf On 7/28/2023 3:04 PM, Keith Trinity WE6R wrote: > Please, PLEASE disconnect your COMPUTER from your radio(s) if lightning > is in the area! > > Almost ALWAYS lightning damaged gear that comes in for repair, was hit > _thru the comm port!_ > (lightning hits Cable/DSL lines). This is the result of failure to follow proper grounding and bonding, and the failure of equipment mfrs to properly bond cable shields to the chassis at the point of entry. That failure to common to all ham mfrs, including Elecraft. This construction error was first addressed in 1994 by a ham working in pro audio, Neil Muncy, ex-W3WJE (SK), and he called it "The Pin One Problem," because Pin 1 of the XLR connectors used to carry balanced audio is the shield contact. I addressed it beginning on page 5 of this RFI tutorial, which started out life in 2007. k9yc.com/RFI-Ham.pdf A major contributor to that lightning damage are the MOV-based surge protectors provide power to interconnected equipment. The MOVs short to the green wire; the IR drop in the green wire from that current spike raises the reference potential for equipment plugged into it, and the difference between that and the chassis of interconnected equipment that's grounded somewhere else fries the interconnected circuitry. We started seeing this in pro audio systems in the early '90s, with no antennas involved. The solution was elimination of those MOV protectors, replacing them with series-mode units that stored surge in a monster inductor, then discharged it slowly as a trickle after the strike had passed. A colleague blew out the Ethernet ports of computers in his small design office from exactly this mechanism. Again, no antennas were involved. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
We're in accord on static. Like lightning, give it someplace to go OUTSIDE, not via the shack/structure. Not just for noise but the voltages can be astoundingly high with enough amperage to cause harm. [A local puts his feeds in a glass jar then is amused at the glow of discharge, contained. But that is FAR from the only wire exposed. These are complex topics that few can translate well to low dollars (hams) and better understanding. It would have been fun to draw on that lunch crowd discussion. The only true axiom is that if you don't have enough shunting, lightning will be happy to show you what you missed. (Antenna didn't fall over? It's not big enough!). 73 Bill, Rick nk7i On 7/28/2023 3:36 PM, Dr. William J. Schmidt wrote: I worked at Honeywell defense systems in the early 80's and I had two guys (Ph.D's from MIT) working in the office next to me that were experts in Meteorology... specifically the study of lightning. I would eat lunch with them because they were "interesting" to say the least. When they found out I was a ham and asking them about lightning protection they laughed hysterically. Over their tenure they schooled me on my lack of knowledge in their area and beat into me immense gravity and consequences of a major lightning strike. Imaginable voltages and currents. You can prepare but you will never be sure. Static is something else. All of the antennas I design and implement have GROUNDED elements or static chokes to ground to reduce static to a minimum. You learn this with experience. Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net On Behalf Of Rick NK7I Sent: Friday, July 28, 2023 4:42 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning Not often (enough) does a ham have a 100'+ tower either. THE standard (of way so many to choose from) is from the cell phone industry (Motorola mostly). It's insanely complex but if you're on a mountain top and need 100% reliability; ideal. The costs, will be a second mortgage so some compromises will have to happen. Here is a better link to the current (newest edition) of the ARRL book; at least a good starting point for a baseline understanding. Direct hits, no matter what system/s used, will always show what you missed or didn't do enough to mitigate. https://a.co/d/01vRC1W Another aspect is static reduction. That comes from wind, rain, dust, snow, anything that passes by the structure. Shunt all to ground OUTside the building is the best approach. (Base of the tower/mast and again at structure entry; make EVERYTHING at the same ground potential, inside and out. When you take a hit, that potential rises, equally if all is done well; it's the difference in potential that harms.) 73, Rick nk7i On 7/28/2023 2:31 PM, Dr. William J. Schmidt wrote: Even the methods in that book are considered sub-standard by the broadcast industry... The only think that is a sure bet is to completely disconnect your radio and put it back in the shipping box. Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ email: b...@wjschmidt.com -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, July 28, 2023 4:14 PM To: j...@kk9a.com Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L=DChcSEwiOk5PAqLKA AxUjEa0GHYmDBJgYABACGgJwdg=2=www.google.com=CAASJORo_AZEA zrEwZh7d0CRaunieFV8dsSC3IDZqsPWbucgX_uNKQ=AOD64_1qxgTjvgwY4_QbQuPW 5KxSnoObmA=2ahUKEwiEsI3AqLKAAxViAjQIHe9mC-UQ0Qx6BAgOEAE Welcome to the Bible of grounding. It’ll take several reads to grasp what you have to do. 73, Rick NK7I On Jul 28, 2023, at 2:11 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote: I would recommend that you follow proper lightning bonding/grounding techniques, these are the only methods that work. My tower has taken a number of lighting strikes. You cannot prevent a lightning strike. Simply disconnecting your feedling will not prevent damage inside your house as the voltage from a strike will be induced into your home's electrical wires. John KK9A Al Lorona W6LX wrote: Please don't laugh at me; I'm a transplant from a region of the country with essentially no lightning to a region where you have to worry about it quite a bit. We had a doozy of a storm last night, with lots of lightning overhead. I felt like a sitting duck, even though I had grounded both sides of the balanced feedline of the antenna, switched the antenna switch to the middle (grounded) position, and even disconnected the coax leading to the K3's rear-panel antenna port. Whenever lightning happens, I always wonder if it really is in fact better to ground everything. Because, doesn't that essentially make a lightning rod of the antenna? If I simply disconnected the antenna and left it floating, wouldn't it be less likely to attract a lightning bolt? I'm of
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
I worked at Honeywell defense systems in the early 80's and I had two guys (Ph.D's from MIT) working in the office next to me that were experts in Meteorology... specifically the study of lightning. I would eat lunch with them because they were "interesting" to say the least. When they found out I was a ham and asking them about lightning protection they laughed hysterically. Over their tenure they schooled me on my lack of knowledge in their area and beat into me immense gravity and consequences of a major lightning strike. Imaginable voltages and currents. You can prepare but you will never be sure. Static is something else. All of the antennas I design and implement have GROUNDED elements or static chokes to ground to reduce static to a minimum. You learn this with experience. Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net On Behalf Of Rick NK7I Sent: Friday, July 28, 2023 4:42 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning Not often (enough) does a ham have a 100'+ tower either. THE standard (of way so many to choose from) is from the cell phone industry (Motorola mostly). It's insanely complex but if you're on a mountain top and need 100% reliability; ideal. The costs, will be a second mortgage so some compromises will have to happen. Here is a better link to the current (newest edition) of the ARRL book; at least a good starting point for a baseline understanding. Direct hits, no matter what system/s used, will always show what you missed or didn't do enough to mitigate. https://a.co/d/01vRC1W Another aspect is static reduction. That comes from wind, rain, dust, snow, anything that passes by the structure. Shunt all to ground OUTside the building is the best approach. (Base of the tower/mast and again at structure entry; make EVERYTHING at the same ground potential, inside and out. When you take a hit, that potential rises, equally if all is done well; it's the difference in potential that harms.) 73, Rick nk7i On 7/28/2023 2:31 PM, Dr. William J. Schmidt wrote: > Even the methods in that book are considered sub-standard by the broadcast > industry... The only think that is a sure bet is to completely disconnect > your radio and put it back in the shipping box. > > > Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ > > email: b...@wjschmidt.com > > > -Original Message- > From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net > > Sent: Friday, July 28, 2023 4:14 PM > To: j...@kk9a.com > Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning > > > https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L=DChcSEwiOk5PAqLKA > AxUjEa0GHYmDBJgYABACGgJwdg=2=www.google.com=CAASJORo_AZEA > zrEwZh7d0CRaunieFV8dsSC3IDZqsPWbucgX_uNKQ=AOD64_1qxgTjvgwY4_QbQuPW > 5KxSnoObmA=2ahUKEwiEsI3AqLKAAxViAjQIHe9mC-UQ0Qx6BAgOEAE > > Welcome to the Bible of grounding. It’ll take several reads to grasp what > you have to do. > > 73, > Rick NK7I > > >> On Jul 28, 2023, at 2:11 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote: >> >> I would recommend that you follow proper lightning bonding/grounding >> techniques, these are the only methods that work. My tower has taken >> a number of lighting strikes. You cannot prevent a lightning strike. >> Simply disconnecting your feedling will not prevent damage inside >> your house as the voltage from a strike will be induced into your home's >> electrical wires. >> >> John KK9A >> >> >> Al Lorona W6LX wrote: >> >> >> Please don't laugh at me; I'm a transplant from a region of the >> country with essentially no lightning to a region where you have to >> worry about it quite a bit. >> >> We had a doozy of a storm last night, with lots of lightning overhead. >> I felt like a sitting duck, even though I had grounded both sides of >> the balanced feedline of the antenna, switched the antenna switch to >> the middle >> (grounded) position, and even disconnected the coax leading to the >> K3's rear-panel antenna port. >> >> Whenever lightning happens, I always wonder if it really is in fact >> better to ground everything. Because, doesn't that essentially make a >> lightning rod of the antenna? If I simply disconnected the antenna >> and left it floating, wouldn't it be less likely to attract a lightning bolt? >> >> I'm of the belief that it's better to try to avoid a direct hit than >> to attract one and trust your grounding system to do its thing. I'm >> of the belief that no grounding system is perfectly effective. >> >> Al W6LX/4 >> >> __
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
I run fiber from my ISP’s box to my router and then to the switches. 73, Bill WE5P Comfortably Numb > On Jul 28, 2023, at 18:06, Keith Trinity WE6R wrote: > > Please, PLEASE disconnect your COMPUTER from your radio(s) if lightning is > in the area! > > Almost ALWAYS lightning damaged gear that comes in for repair, was hit _thru > the comm port!_ > (lightning hits Cable/DSL lines). > > As far as repairs I see, it is not common for it to be damaged from lightning > coming in the antenna. > > It usually gets to your computer, then radio gear. > > A direct hit however, and all bets are off. I've seen it come in/out via DC, > keyer, PTT IN, even the ground lug, IE anything metal. > > Keith WE6R Elecraft K3/K4 Tech > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to weave...@usermail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
Please, PLEASE disconnect your COMPUTER from your radio(s) if lightning is in the area! Almost ALWAYS lightning damaged gear that comes in for repair, was hit _thru the comm port!_ (lightning hits Cable/DSL lines). As far as repairs I see, it is not common for it to be damaged from lightning coming in the antenna. It usually gets to your computer, then radio gear. A direct hit however, and all bets are off. I've seen it come in/out via DC, keyer, PTT IN, even the ground lug, IE anything metal. Keith WE6R Elecraft K3/K4 Tech __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
Lightning can’t tell whether something is grounded because the energy pulse hasn’t gotten that far yet. Lightning induces a current in every nearby conductor. When that pulse of current reaches a building or electronics, we want to provide a low impedance path to a safe sink (ground rods) and a high impedance path to the equipment (a choke). A lightning arrestor is a temporary low impedance path to ground for conductors that aren’t normally grounded. The best high impedance path is disconnecting your equipment. That won’t stop a direct strike, because that will induce currents in the disconnected equipment. But it will help almost all the time. wunder K6WRU Walter Underwood CM87wj http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog) > On Jul 28, 2023, at 1:31 PM, Al Lorona wrote: > > Please don't laugh at me; I'm a transplant from a region of the country with > essentially no lightning to a region where you have to worry about it quite a > bit. > > We had a doozy of a storm last night, with lots of lightning overhead. I felt > like a sitting duck, even though I had grounded both sides of the balanced > feedline of the antenna, switched the antenna switch to the middle (grounded) > position, and even disconnected the coax leading to the K3's rear-panel > antenna port. > > Whenever lightning happens, I always wonder if it really is in fact better to > ground everything. Because, doesn't that essentially make a lightning rod of > the antenna? If I simply disconnected the antenna and left it floating, > wouldn't it be less likely to attract a lightning bolt? > > I'm of the belief that it's better to try to avoid a direct hit than to > attract one and trust your grounding system to do its thing. I'm of the > belief that no grounding system is perfectly effective. > > Al W6LX/4 > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to wun...@wunderwood.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
Not often (enough) does a ham have a 100'+ tower either. THE standard (of way so many to choose from) is from the cell phone industry (Motorola mostly). It's insanely complex but if you're on a mountain top and need 100% reliability; ideal. The costs, will be a second mortgage so some compromises will have to happen. Here is a better link to the current (newest edition) of the ARRL book; at least a good starting point for a baseline understanding. Direct hits, no matter what system/s used, will always show what you missed or didn't do enough to mitigate. https://a.co/d/01vRC1W Another aspect is static reduction. That comes from wind, rain, dust, snow, anything that passes by the structure. Shunt all to ground OUTside the building is the best approach. (Base of the tower/mast and again at structure entry; make EVERYTHING at the same ground potential, inside and out. When you take a hit, that potential rises, equally if all is done well; it's the difference in potential that harms.) 73, Rick nk7i On 7/28/2023 2:31 PM, Dr. William J. Schmidt wrote: Even the methods in that book are considered sub-standard by the broadcast industry... The only think that is a sure bet is to completely disconnect your radio and put it back in the shipping box. Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ email: b...@wjschmidt.com -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, July 28, 2023 4:14 PM To: j...@kk9a.com Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L=DChcSEwiOk5PAqLKAAxUjEa0GHYmDBJgYABACGgJwdg=2=www.google.com=CAASJORo_AZEAzrEwZh7d0CRaunieFV8dsSC3IDZqsPWbucgX_uNKQ=AOD64_1qxgTjvgwY4_QbQuPW5KxSnoObmA=2ahUKEwiEsI3AqLKAAxViAjQIHe9mC-UQ0Qx6BAgOEAE Welcome to the Bible of grounding. It’ll take several reads to grasp what you have to do. 73, Rick NK7I On Jul 28, 2023, at 2:11 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote: I would recommend that you follow proper lightning bonding/grounding techniques, these are the only methods that work. My tower has taken a number of lighting strikes. You cannot prevent a lightning strike. Simply disconnecting your feedling will not prevent damage inside your house as the voltage from a strike will be induced into your home's electrical wires. John KK9A Al Lorona W6LX wrote: Please don't laugh at me; I'm a transplant from a region of the country with essentially no lightning to a region where you have to worry about it quite a bit. We had a doozy of a storm last night, with lots of lightning overhead. I felt like a sitting duck, even though I had grounded both sides of the balanced feedline of the antenna, switched the antenna switch to the middle (grounded) position, and even disconnected the coax leading to the K3's rear-panel antenna port. Whenever lightning happens, I always wonder if it really is in fact better to ground everything. Because, doesn't that essentially make a lightning rod of the antenna? If I simply disconnected the antenna and left it floating, wouldn't it be less likely to attract a lightning bolt? I'm of the belief that it's better to try to avoid a direct hit than to attract one and trust your grounding system to do its thing. I'm of the belief that no grounding system is perfectly effective. Al W6LX/4 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to rick.n...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to b...@wjschmidt.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to rick.n...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
Even the methods in that book are considered sub-standard by the broadcast industry... The only think that is a sure bet is to completely disconnect your radio and put it back in the shipping box. Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ email: b...@wjschmidt.com -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, July 28, 2023 4:14 PM To: j...@kk9a.com Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L=DChcSEwiOk5PAqLKAAxUjEa0GHYmDBJgYABACGgJwdg=2=www.google.com=CAASJORo_AZEAzrEwZh7d0CRaunieFV8dsSC3IDZqsPWbucgX_uNKQ=AOD64_1qxgTjvgwY4_QbQuPW5KxSnoObmA=2ahUKEwiEsI3AqLKAAxViAjQIHe9mC-UQ0Qx6BAgOEAE Welcome to the Bible of grounding. It’ll take several reads to grasp what you have to do. 73, Rick NK7I > On Jul 28, 2023, at 2:11 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote: > > I would recommend that you follow proper lightning bonding/grounding > techniques, these are the only methods that work. My tower has taken a > number of lighting strikes. You cannot prevent a lightning strike. > Simply disconnecting your feedling will not prevent damage inside your > house as the voltage from a strike will be induced into your home's > electrical wires. > > John KK9A > > > Al Lorona W6LX wrote: > > > Please don't laugh at me; I'm a transplant from a region of the > country with essentially no lightning to a region where you have to > worry about it quite a bit. > > We had a doozy of a storm last night, with lots of lightning overhead. > I felt like a sitting duck, even though I had grounded both sides of > the balanced feedline of the antenna, switched the antenna switch to > the middle > (grounded) position, and even disconnected the coax leading to the > K3's rear-panel antenna port. > > Whenever lightning happens, I always wonder if it really is in fact > better to ground everything. Because, doesn't that essentially make a > lightning rod of the antenna? If I simply disconnected the antenna and > left it floating, wouldn't it be less likely to attract a lightning bolt? > > I'm of the belief that it's better to try to avoid a direct hit than > to attract one and trust your grounding system to do its thing. I'm of > the belief that no grounding system is perfectly effective. > > Al W6LX/4 > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email > list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to > rick.n...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to b...@wjschmidt.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L=DChcSEwiOk5PAqLKAAxUjEa0GHYmDBJgYABACGgJwdg=2=www.google.com=CAASJORo_AZEAzrEwZh7d0CRaunieFV8dsSC3IDZqsPWbucgX_uNKQ=AOD64_1qxgTjvgwY4_QbQuPW5KxSnoObmA=2ahUKEwiEsI3AqLKAAxViAjQIHe9mC-UQ0Qx6BAgOEAE Welcome to the Bible of grounding. It’ll take several reads to grasp what you have to do. 73, Rick NK7I > On Jul 28, 2023, at 2:11 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote: > > I would recommend that you follow proper lightning bonding/grounding > techniques, these are the only methods that work. My tower has taken a > number of lighting strikes. You cannot prevent a lightning strike. Simply > disconnecting your feedling will not prevent damage inside your house as the > voltage from a strike will be induced into your home's electrical wires. > > John KK9A > > > Al Lorona W6LX wrote: > > > Please don't laugh at me; I'm a transplant from a region of the country with > essentially no lightning to a region where you have to worry about it quite > a bit. > > We had a doozy of a storm last night, with lots of lightning overhead. I > felt like a sitting duck, even though I had grounded both sides of the > balanced feedline of the antenna, switched the antenna switch to the middle > (grounded) position, and even disconnected the coax leading to the K3's > rear-panel antenna port. > > Whenever lightning happens, I always wonder if it really is in fact better > to ground everything. Because, doesn't that essentially make a lightning rod > of the antenna? If I simply disconnected the antenna and left it floating, > wouldn't it be less likely to attract a lightning bolt? > > I'm of the belief that it's better to try to avoid a direct hit than to > attract one and trust your grounding system to do its thing. I'm of the > belief that no grounding system is perfectly effective. > > Al W6LX/4 > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to rick.n...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] A dumb question about lightning
I would recommend that you follow proper lightning bonding/grounding techniques, these are the only methods that work. My tower has taken a number of lighting strikes. You cannot prevent a lightning strike. Simply disconnecting your feedling will not prevent damage inside your house as the voltage from a strike will be induced into your home's electrical wires. John KK9A Al Lorona W6LX wrote: Please don't laugh at me; I'm a transplant from a region of the country with essentially no lightning to a region where you have to worry about it quite a bit. We had a doozy of a storm last night, with lots of lightning overhead. I felt like a sitting duck, even though I had grounded both sides of the balanced feedline of the antenna, switched the antenna switch to the middle (grounded) position, and even disconnected the coax leading to the K3's rear-panel antenna port. Whenever lightning happens, I always wonder if it really is in fact better to ground everything. Because, doesn't that essentially make a lightning rod of the antenna? If I simply disconnected the antenna and left it floating, wouldn't it be less likely to attract a lightning bolt? I'm of the belief that it's better to try to avoid a direct hit than to attract one and trust your grounding system to do its thing. I'm of the belief that no grounding system is perfectly effective. Al W6LX/4 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
