where to draw their approval cut-off line, once C enters
the race.
-Terry Bouricius
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(802) 864-8382
- Original Message -
From: Kathy Dopp [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: election-methods@lists.electorama.com
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Election-Methods
problem. That same
hope sometimes allows a spoiler scenario to be avoided under traditional
plurality (FPTP) rules, but the fact remains that both methods are prone
to spoiler problems.
-Terry Bouricius
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(802) 864-8382
- Original Message -
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
of whether representative
democracy should be seen as self-governance, or consent of the
governed.
Sorry if this is too off-topic.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Steve Eppley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Election
On the question of whether electing a subgroup should be proportional or
majoritarian...I often make a distinction on two factors: 1) Is the
association voluntary (in which dissatisfied minorities can easily
withdraw to join or form a different association), and 2) Is the function
of the
before even considering it.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Kathy Dopp [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: election-methods@lists.electorama.com
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Election-Methods] A Better Version of IRV?
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 23:36:32 + (GMT)
From
on you admitted that you were new to this whole topic. That's fine,
you can learn. Just stop puffing up your writing by pretending it has more
credibility than it deserves by miss-using terms like peer-reviewed.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Kathy Dopp [EMAIL PROTECTED
under Condorcet or Borda. IRV advocates
argue (rightly, I think) that it strikes a favorable balance between
seeking first choices (core support) and alternate rankings (broad
support), when compared to methods that disregard whether a candidate
received any first preferences.
Terry Bouricius
Aaron,
Just four little points to what Aaron Armitage wrote...
1. snip
You claim, in short, that using the same inputs differently makes them
different inputs, and that producing the same kind of outcome differently
makes it a different outcome.
snip
I believe James was arguing that while a
districts using alternative voting methods, such as
proportional representation in multi-seat districts, as a way of achieving
both competitive elections and fair representation of both majorities and
minorities within a district.
-Terry Bouricius, Vermont USA
- Original Message -
From
that elections may not be the key to genuinely
representative democracy.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Fred Gohlke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: election-methods@lists.electorama.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: [EM] language/framing quibble
Whoops
(which is more than
can be said of many voting methods discussed on this list), it may not be
so far-fetched.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Aaron Armitage [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: election-methods@lists.electorama.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: [EM
matter or place an item on their agenda.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Raph Frank [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: election-methods@lists.electorama.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: [EM] sortition/random legislature Was: Re:
language
with tallying software and instructions
on how to conduct your own IRV tally using any spread sheet software. You
can see the actual city web site here:
http://www.burlingtonvotes.org/20060307/
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Raph Frank [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED
, regularly elect the wrong candidate. A
bit like obsessing on fixing the rotten clapboard on the back of the barn,
while ignoring that the barn door is wide open and the cows are leaving.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: James Gilmour [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED
in the chance of winning election for each
non-supportive individual approached and successfully bribed.
Cost = years in jail if just one of these people exposes the candidate's
illegal activity.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Raph Frank [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Mike Frank [EMAIL
that aren't
(complying with other criteria that some believe are more crucial). The
issue separating the various Condorcet methods is how you find a winner
when there is no Condorcet winner.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Dave Ketchum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc
proportional than the electoral college makeup.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Kathy Dopp [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: election-methods@lists.electorama.com
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 10:11 PM
Subject: Re: [EM] Making a Bad Thing Worse
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 02:17:14 +0100
From
-ground-state-focus of
presidential elections, Vermont has no felt impact on the presidential
selection process at all. The candidates only appeal to swing voters in
swing states.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Paul Kislanko [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Dave Ketchum' [EMAIL PROTECTED
be). The point is that IRV does NOT always elect
the plurality leader.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Markus Schulze [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [EM] Why I think IRV isn't a serious alternative
Dear Greg,
you wrote
little chance of winning or hurting Z any way, but skip Y, even though
I actually prefer Y to X, so as to not risk hurting Z, and also vote for
Z. You might say this is poor strategy, or illogical, but I am reasonably
certain it is the kind of strategy that would occur all the time.
Terry Bouricius
winner. I am not
arguing that the concept of Condorcet winner is not a legitimate
criterion, just that its normative value is artificially heightened by
saying the candidate wins by a majority when no such actual solid
majority needs to exist.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message
voters) typical in one of the
rounds of a two election system. I know you have written favorably about
such drop off in voter turnout as an effective method of compromise
(voters who don't care enough stay home). I disagree.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
...What matters is
whether the country uses a form of PR for legislative elections,
regardless of what method is in place for electing single-seat executives.
Terry
- Original Message -
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com
To: Terry Bouricius ter...@burlingtontelecom.net; Election
(using RRONR's standard definition that EXCLUDES
abstentions in determining a majority threshold.)
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com
To: Terry Bouricius ter...@burlingtontelecom.net; Election Methods
Mailing List election-meth
as an abstention as directed by
RRONR.
While I agree that it may not be completely UNresonable to take the view
that Abd and Kathy Dopp favor, I think it is contrary to the most usual
interpretation of RRONR.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Kathy Dopp kathy.d...@gmail.com
a two-round runoff majority and a
possible winner of such an imperfect implementation of IRV. I can not go
back and correct historic claims made by others, but I myself long ago
stopped saying such imperfect implementations assured majority winners.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message
in
majority winners so does IRV.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Dave Ketchum da...@clarityconnect.com
To: Terry Bouricius ter...@burlingtontelecom.net
Cc: election-methods@lists.electorama.com; Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
a...@lomaxdesign.com
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 1:06 AM
?
Robert's Rules and governmental election statutes would describe this
candidate as a majority winner I believe.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com
To: jgilm...@globalnet.co.uk; election-methods@lists.electorama.com
Sent: Friday, January 02
is to discount all abstainers
from the basis, regardless of the manner of their abstention.
Terry
- Original Message -
From: Paul Kislanko kisla...@airmail.net
To: 'Terry Bouricius' ter...@burlingtontelecom.net;
jgilm...@globalnet.co.uk; election-methods@lists.electorama.com; 'Abd
ul
constitutionality.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Markus Schulze markus.schu...@alumni.tu-berlin.de
To: election-meth...@electorama.com
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [EM] IRV and Brown vs. Smallwood
Dear Terry Bouricius,
you wrote (18 Jan 2009):
Do you have
the federal constitution, and would likely defend their constitutionality.
I don't believe Tony Solgard has argued there is any problem with
Condorcet methods with regards to the federal constitution either.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Markus Schulze markus.schu...@alumni.tu
). Again IRV and Condorcet meet this most basic criterion, while
plurality elections fail it -- not only in theory -- but with disturbing
frequency in real-world elections.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Kristofer Munsterhjelm km-el...@broadpark.no
To: kathy.d...@gmail.com
won a huge contract to supply voting machines to the Philippines) has
such a system already federally tested in the U.S.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Raph Frank raph...@gmail.com
To: Kristofer Munsterhjelm km-el...@broadpark.no
Cc: Dave Ketchum da...@clarityconnect.com; EM
of party officials, and can assure
you they are not in control of things.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Fred Gohlke fredgoh...@verizon.net
To: election-methods@lists.electorama.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: [EM] language/framing quibble
Good Morning
progress improving American elections, of the usefulness of Bayesian
Regret as a standard, as well as different interpretations of facts, but I
will attempt to be civil. We could all use a little more of that, I
suspect
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Warren Smith warren
, and determined to have only stray marks in the write-in oval, and
in fact to be valid votes, that were added to the candidate totals during
the recount.
I hope this clarifies the situation.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Warren Smith warren@gmail.com
To: election-methods
them below (I
don't have numbers for the 2007 and 2008 non-mayoral election years --
Burlington switched to a three-year term recently), but I expect they were
lower.
Terry Bouricius
Burlington March voter turnout summary
YEAR TURNOUT
2001 Council only
the best
in use anywhere today. I can't imagine any thoughtful reformer wanting to
throw a monkey wrench into one of the most promising election reform
movements in the world today. Go BC-STV!
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Kathy Dopp kathy.d...@gmail.com
To: election-methods
message already noticed that.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com
To: kathy.d...@gmail.com; Terry Bouricius
ter...@burlingtontelecom.net
Cc: election-methods@lists.electorama.com
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [EM
), but the mayoral election was standard.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Kathy Dopp kathy.d...@gmail.com
To: EM election-methods@lists.electorama.com
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 7:06 PM
Subject: [EM] Fwd: [uscv-voting_activists] Coinkie-dink? Aspen
mayor-1273,Seat 1-1273 Seat 2- 1273
not
particularly interesting).
Terry Bouricius
--
Very quickly:
1. There were no invalid votes for mayor. See
http://www.aspenpitkin.com/pdfs/depts/38/electionresults09.pdf , which
you get to by following the May 2009 Election Results link from middle
of page http
to explain to lay people (unlike many cycle breakers).
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Warren Smith warren@gmail.com
To: election-methods election-meth...@electorama.com
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 3:35 PM
Subject: [EM] Cramster question
Question:
Condorcet’s method has
repeatedly,
rather than asking you to score all the lens options), etc.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Jameson Quinn
To: Kevin Venzke
Cc: election-meth...@electorama.com
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 12:30 AM
Subject: Re: [EM] Score DSV
2009/8/29 Kevin Venzke step
/electionstrategy10b.pdf
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Matthew Welland m...@kiatoa.com
To: Election Methods Mailing List election-meth...@electorama.com
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 3:12 PM
Subject: [EM] Anyone got a good analysis on limitations of approval
andrange
Response to Warren... inserted below each of his points (marked by ***)
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Warren Smith warren@gmail.com
To: election-methods election-meth...@electorama.com
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:00 PM
Subject: [EM] (no subject)
Terry Bouricius
as meaningful input. He actually discusses the concept of range
voting (not by that name) but asserts It is hard not to see that the
suggested assignment of utilities is extremely unsatisfactory. Obviously
Range Voting advocates disagree with his assessment.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message
on this in the past, and I have no
desire to revisit the topic, but I just wanted to indicate that this is
not an open and shut case as Abd suggests.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com
To: Warren Smith warren@gmail.com; election
alone Condorcet winners.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: robert bristow-johnson r...@audioimagination.com
To: EM election-methods@lists.electorama.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 11:28 PM
Subject: [EM] just to let you know ...
... that the anti-IRV folks in Burlington
in the election...He makes the point that political groups that
fail to do this will appropriately be punished by the spoiler dynamic.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: robert bristow-johnson r...@audioimagination.com
To: Warren Smith warren@gmail.com
Cc: election-methods
no candidate reached 40% initially, and IRV replicated
the likely runoff outcome.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Stéphane Rouillon stephane.rouil...@sympatico.ca
To: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com
Cc: kathy.d...@gmail.com; election-methods@lists.electorama.com
Sent
of their ballots.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Juho juho4...@yahoo.co.uk
To: EM Methods election-methods@lists.electorama.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 4:49 AM
Subject: Re: [EM] IRV vs Plurality
On Jan 13, 2010, at 9:14 AM, robert bristow-johnson wrote:
it still
Americans are familiar with and accepting of traditional runoff
systems (TTR), which suffer all of the same non-monotonicity, and other
shortcomings as IRV that Kathy focuses on.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Kathy Dopp kathy.d...@gmail.com
To: robert bristow-johnson r
, but not the only
legitimate, nor ultimate criterion.
Terry Bouricius
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
.
It is PLURALITY voting, which you support, that often DOES elect the
Condorcet-loser, who a majority agree is the worst choice.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Kathy Dopp kathy.d...@gmail.com
To: Chris Benham cbenha...@yahoo.com.au; EM
election-methods@lists.electorama.com
Sent
direction to go there seems to be a
natural for advocates.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Kathy Dopp kathy.d...@gmail.com
To: Terry Bouricius ter...@burlingtontelecom.net
Cc: election-methods@lists.electorama.com
Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: [EM] Fw: Two
what you want it to mean, I don't think you
can make that statement without a caveat to explain that you mean
something different than what any layperson would assume you mean.
Terry
- Original Message -
From: Kathy Dopp kathy.d...@gmail.com
To: Terry Bouricius ter
NOT consider IRV unacceptable (If you ask him, I believe he
will say he favors it in real world implementations). To set the record
straight, I will paste the rebuttal I sent to this list when Warren Smith
made the same mistake last year.
Terry Bouricius
On page 238 [in his book _Collective
the plurality leader.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Jonathan Lundell jlund...@pobox.com
To: Juho juho4...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: EM Methods election-methods@lists.electorama.com
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: [EM] I need an example of Condorcet method being subjected
the majority discussion, as that is off topic.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Kathy Dopp kathy.d...@gmail.com
To: election-methods@lists.electorama.com
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [EM] I need an example of Condorcet method being subjected
From: Terry
.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Kathy Dopp kathy.d...@gmail.com
To: Terry Bouricius ter...@burlingtontelecom.net
Cc: election-methods@lists.electorama.com
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: [EM] I need an example of Condorcet method being subjected
Start telling
Jonathan,
Yes and no...You are correct that Arrow never uses the term
monotonicity, but the concept is embodied in his second condition,
called positive association.
Terry
- Original Message -
From: Jonathan Lundell jlund...@pobox.com
To: kathy.d...@gmail.com
Cc:
.
Alternatively, the threat of assigning all offices by lot might be used as a
stick to prompt all voters to come to a unanimous agreement using an iterative
or bidding process.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Juho
To: election-methods Mailing List
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 5
turnout Ward 2).
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: robert bristow-johnson r...@audioimagination.com
To: Election Methods election-meth...@electorama.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: [EM] Burlington Vermont repeals IRV 52% to 48%
On Mar 2, 2010, at 9:58
true of single seat elections. I may
want my candidate to win, but be disappointed if she wins despite the fact
that a majority of voters preferred another candidate (due to a feature of
the voting method)...My preference for majority rule may trump my
candidate preference.
Terry Bouricius
Kathy,
Ralph is describing the open list system used in such places as the
Netherlands (nation-wide) and Finland (regionally).
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Raph Frank raph...@gmail.com
To: kathy.d...@gmail.com
Cc: election-methods@lists.electorama.com
Sent: Sunday, March
their
own party? Would parties put up with that from candidates they nominate,
or wouldn't they insist on that level of party loyalty to receive the
party's nomination?
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Raph Frank raph...@gmail.com
To: kathy.d...@gmail.com
Cc: election-methods
dumb things the anti-IRV side said that should have been pounced
on and was let go.
Terry Bouricius is also a Burlington resident and is known in
Burlington for being the primary promoter of IRV (i think that's
right, ain't it Terry?). i didn't see him at the debate, but Rep.
Mark Larson and someone
.). IRV is merely
the single-seat variant of FairVotes' preferred PR system. As happened in
the Australia national Senate elections, which transitioned from IRV to
STV-PR, once IRV was adopted, a huge barrier (the use of ranked ballots)
to adopting STV PR is removed.
Terry Bouricius
outcomes from that action (since
each vote has virtually zero impact on the outcome.)
This is a fascinating topic, that makes the debates about methods, or
ordinal vs. cardinal voting seem a bit lacking.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Michael Allan m...@zelea.com
Jameson,
Abd has made much of a proposal of Charles Dodgson tweaking STV by allowing
candidates to assign exhausted ballots...but that is NOT the system that
Dodgson's name is normally attached to. His name is attached to a Condorcet
method (but not knowing of Condorcet's prior invention)
representation.
Terry Bouricius
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
, by a unanimous vote, but not otherwise; if such election be
not made within a fortnight after the vacancy has occurred, the
appointment shall devolve upon the Committee.
Terry Bouricius
Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
, diversity
and proportional representation may not be beneficial to the organization.
Including minority perspectives who lost the battle at the convention may
prompt this faction to prove they were right by under-cutting the
workplan.
Terry Bouricius
- Original Message -
From: Raph Frank
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