Re: [O] NLS/Augment
* Fraga [2019-08-20 11:33]: > On Tuesday, 13 Aug 2019 at 20:39, Jean Louis wrote: > > [...] > > > So is the concept of hierarchical data management or structured data > > management. > > You might be interested in reading about Plan 9: https://9p.io/plan9/ Plan 9 I heard of since longer, great concepts of integration. In the beginning it was proprietary software, I have no tolerance to that. And it probably does not run Emacs... I would lose the present integration. Jean
Re: [O] NLS/Augment
On Tuesday, 13 Aug 2019 at 20:39, Jean Louis wrote: [...] > So is the concept of hierarchical data management or structured data > management. You might be interested in reading about Plan 9: https://9p.io/plan9/ -- Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, Org release_9.2.4-401-gfabd6d
Re: [O] NLS/Augment
a playwright once had a line like "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man". there are not many unreasonable men of the right kind (englebart perhaps), too many of the wrong kind, and too many reasonable men who don't realize the need to become unreasonable until it has become too late for them, even them personally. that last one is why mass human rights violations sneak up on populations and are rejected out of hand until it is too late, and, imo trivially, why computers interfaces in the broad sense are dumb. i don't think there is any intent behind computer dumbness except get it out the door. the dbas of the past could have had no intent to create the y2k problem, just to save space. and with that i am out of this ot discussion :). -- The Kafka Pandemic What is misopathy? https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com/2013/10/why-some-diseases-are-wronged.html The disease DOES progress. MANY people have died from it. And ANYBODY can get it at any time.
Re: [O] NLS/Augment
* Adam Porter [2019-08-12 21:50]: > Thanks for sharing those links, those videos are fascinating. It's > amazing how much some of what he demonstrates resembles features in Org > and Emacs, and even surpasses them, over 50 years ago! Even the > presentation itself, with picture-in-picture videoconferencing with > screen sharing, surpasses most conference presentations on YouTube! I am glad to have found that information as it clarifies what means Internet as from its beginnings. That is definitely the first thing to teach in computer classes when mentioning Internet. It is also sad state that for long time the concepts were not available to people and still are not. The file system concept is somehow unintentionally or intentionally hidden to common people. It is a hierarchy, a data tree, that is well suitable for nice sorting of files, but how to sort files really is not well explained, it is somehow lacking. For example there is not example concept given in books or instructions of operating systems on how to keep files. I think it would be beneficial. So is the concept of hierarchical data management or structured data management. And I remember the concept of entering the links and menus already from the BBS[1], and I do not know why and how, I remember being isolated in former Yugoslavia, without any contact to Internet or outside knowledge, and we were making similar menus like on the demo of Douglas Engelbart[2] on our small replicas of TRS-80 computers. Video conferencing is quite a large need and have been shown in movies so many times, but is still not developed and not in use by large. Sad situation, I was really expecting much more from the 21st century, about 50 years after the inventions of Douglas Engelbart. Org mode is a simple way by which one can build such augmented information systems. But it is not as integrated. Look at "What it offered"[3]: > Doug's lab pioneered progressive work processes while using each > successive version of NLS/Augment for all its own knowledge work, > from drafting, publishing, email, shared screen collaborative > viewing and editing There are packages and possibilities for shared screen and collaborative viewing, publishing on Internet and editing. I am not sure if this is really demanded overall. But in one way or other we have it in GNU Emacs. GNU Emacs basically became what NLS/Augment offered and what Douglas Engelbart envisioned > document cataloging Not sure about that, but software tools exist for this, maybe one such is Orgadoc[4], and document indexers also exist. However, not well integrated and not easily accessible to population. > project management We are lucky that Org mode offers project management features provided the user knows how to start and where to start. But what about the population? Project management shall be introduced in my opinion by every operating system. In fact every operating system shall be given to user with one or other similar information management package. For my biased needs it would be best to improve the GNU Emacs to the level that it can boot and then offer to users options to launch other software. > shared address book, I guess that LDAP[5] and various CRM[6] related software do offer such possibilites. We still do not have such options from GNU Emacs, I wish we would. It is necessary for any larger organization or remote work stations to have some kind of centralized database from which access to shared address book would be possible. I guess this can be easily implemented in GNU Emacs by creating an SQL database to which Emacs work stations could gain the access. Of course there would be no need for slow motion browsers. > all source code development and maintenance This we surely have within Emacs > -- all in an integrated hyper groupware environment filled with > special features for high performance work. Emacs has this pretty much, but not as much as I would wish and like. Hyperlinking is important feature. We cannot just link everything in Emacs. GNU Hyperbole[7] have given the concept of linking to many information references, but it is not as polished and not as easy to go for common man. > For example, you can create a link to any paragraph or line of code > or email paragraph That would be great. I need this feature, this would be so useful. It should not matter which type of file it is. Not just Org files, it should work like Hyperbole on many other files. > you can see when paragraphs and lines of code were last edited and > by whom Version control systems exist, we have this. > and even view a file filtered by author since a certain date and > time (as in why doesn't the code work this morning, let's see who > was in there changing what when!) This can be known today by using version control systems, including file system ownership. > you can browse with outline views, Many outlines modes exist in GNU Emacs. Org mode is one of them. I wish Org could have some
Re: [O] NLS/Augment
* Carsten Dominik [2019-08-16 23:13]: > > I would like to know if Carsten Dominik came up with idea by > > knowing about Doug Engelbart? > > > > Do you mean with Org-mode in general? No, I learned about Engelbart > later and was amazed. > > Carsten Thanks, good to know if you had inspiration by Engelbart. Jean
Re: [O] NLS/Augment
On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 4:59 PM Jean Louis wrote: > * Samuel Wales [2019-08-14 21:57]: > > org-mouse works well for me and i depend on it frequently. > > > > the main thing i am missing in it is the ability to select a todo kw > > for a header. > > > > i use require. i never understood modules or their purpose. > Yes, not sure if modules was a good idea. I wanted a clickable list of stuff to add, because the parts became so many. Require is a fine replacement. > I would like to know if Carsten Dominik came up with idea by knowing > about Doug Engelbart? > Do you mean with Org-mode in general? No, I learned about Engelbart later and was amazed. Carsten > > Jean > >
Re: [O] NLS/Augment
* Samuel Wales [2019-08-14 21:57]: > org-mouse works well for me and i depend on it frequently. > > the main thing i am missing in it is the ability to select a todo kw > for a header. > > i use require. i never understood modules or their purpose. I would like to know if Carsten Dominik came up with idea by knowing about Doug Engelbart? Jean
Re: [O] NLS/Augment
* John Kitchin [2019-08-16 16:15]: > That is the right thing to do I think. The only differences you > should see is when the mouse pointer is over a star in a headline, > it should highlight with a mouse face, and if you click on the > highlighted region it should cycle the headline open and > closed. Similarly, the [ ] in a checkbox should get highlighted, and > if you click on it, it should toggle its state. There might also be > some right click menus. Now I got it, thank you. Yes, it is good this way, at least for start. I just wish Emacs would have the entry to structural and organized information as Doug Engelbart envisioned it. There are many functions for that, scattered around, not yet integrated. Mouse is explained in Org documentation. But so short that common man cannot quite find it. Only this: == To toggle a checkbox, use ‘C-c C-c’, or use the mouse (thanks to Piotr Zielinski’s ‘org-mouse.el’). and • Piotr Zielinski wrote ‘org-mouse.el’, proposed agenda blocks and contributed various ideas and code snippets. that is scarce description. In fact it should be enabled by default or exist in menu to be toggled. Emacs has all capabilities for information management system, and yet we are so far from what Doug Engelbart[1] envisioned 50 years ago. Jean Footnotes: [1] http://www.dougengelbart.org/templates/bootstrap_template/images/bootstrap-alliance-2.jpg
Re: [O] NLS/Augment
That is the right thing to do I think. The only differences you should see is when the mouse pointer is over a star in a headline, it should highlight with a mouse face, and if you click on the highlighted region it should cycle the headline open and closed. Similarly, the [ ] in a checkbox should get highlighted, and if you click on it, it should toggle its state. There might also be some right click menus. John --- Professor John Kitchin Doherty Hall A207F Department of Chemical Engineering Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh, PA 15213 412-268-7803 @johnkitchin http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 10:05 AM Jean Louis wrote: > * John Kitchin [2019-08-14 15:53]: > > strange. It has always worked fine for me. It turns out in the long run I > > don't use it much, C-c C-c does the same thing on check boxes, and speed > > commands on headings end up being easier to use for me. YMMV of course. > > Please tell me how do you use it? How do you invoke mouse to work in > Org mode? > > I do this: > > emacs -Q > > in scratch: > > (require 'org-mouse) > > Then I open Org file, nothing I can see nor change with mouse. > > So tell me how do you do it that it works. > > Thank you, > Jean >
Re: [O] NLS/Augment
* John Kitchin [2019-08-14 15:53]: > strange. It has always worked fine for me. It turns out in the long run I > don't use it much, C-c C-c does the same thing on check boxes, and speed > commands on headings end up being easier to use for me. YMMV of course. Please tell me how do you use it? How do you invoke mouse to work in Org mode? I do this: emacs -Q in scratch: (require 'org-mouse) Then I open Org file, nothing I can see nor change with mouse. So tell me how do you do it that it works. Thank you, Jean
Re: [O] NLS/Augment
org-mouse works well for me and i depend on it frequently. the main thing i am missing in it is the ability to select a todo kw for a header. i use require. i never understood modules or their purpose. -- The Kafka Pandemic What is misopathy? https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com/2013/10/why-some-diseases-are-wronged.html The disease DOES progress. MANY people have died from it. And ANYBODY can get it at any time.
Re: [O] NLS/Augment
strange. It has always worked fine for me. It turns out in the long run I don't use it much, C-c C-c does the same thing on check boxes, and speed commands on headings end up being easier to use for me. YMMV of course. John --- Professor John Kitchin Doherty Hall A207F Department of Chemical Engineering Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh, PA 15213 412-268-7803 @johnkitchin http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 9:35 AM Jean Louis wrote: > * John Kitchin [2019-08-12 15:05]: > > > > Jean Louis writes: > > > > > * Steve Quezadas [2019-08-12 05:59]: > > >> Guys, > > >> > > >> This is a slightly offtopic, but I've been using org-mode and I love > love > > >> loveit. Was the writing of org-mode related in any way to Douglas > > >> Engelbart's NLS/Augment system? A lot of the features seem to > crossover. Or > > >> is this simply coincidence? > > > > > > I have been watching the demonstration on these pages: > > > http://dougengelbart.org/content/view/216/000/#Augment > > > > > > and videos by Christina Engelbart, > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLCGFadV4FqU15vunAfsTDzeEPnHDaf7n0=STRuciV6L38 > > > > > > Org mode look similar to that Augment browser, definitely. With > > > differences. But it looks as nice information management system. > > > > > > It would be good that Org mode gets some kind of buttons follow the > > > mouse feature upon turning it on, just as shown on this video: > > > https://vimeo.com/81238285 > > > > > > > I think (require 'org-mouse) provides lots of mouse support for > > opening/closing outlines, checking/unchecking checkboxes, etc. > > I have tried it, but it does not turn on at all times. Documentation > is vague. It is unclear how should it turn on. > > Jean >
Re: [O] NLS/Augment
* John Kitchin [2019-08-12 15:05]: > > Jean Louis writes: > > > * Steve Quezadas [2019-08-12 05:59]: > >> Guys, > >> > >> This is a slightly offtopic, but I've been using org-mode and I love love > >> loveit. Was the writing of org-mode related in any way to Douglas > >> Engelbart's NLS/Augment system? A lot of the features seem to crossover. Or > >> is this simply coincidence? > > > > I have been watching the demonstration on these pages: > > http://dougengelbart.org/content/view/216/000/#Augment > > > > and videos by Christina Engelbart, > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLCGFadV4FqU15vunAfsTDzeEPnHDaf7n0=STRuciV6L38 > > > > Org mode look similar to that Augment browser, definitely. With > > differences. But it looks as nice information management system. > > > > It would be good that Org mode gets some kind of buttons follow the > > mouse feature upon turning it on, just as shown on this video: > > https://vimeo.com/81238285 > > > > I think (require 'org-mouse) provides lots of mouse support for > opening/closing outlines, checking/unchecking checkboxes, etc. I have tried it, but it does not turn on at all times. Documentation is vague. It is unclear how should it turn on. Jean
Re: [O] NLS/Augment
Thanks for sharing those links, those videos are fascinating. It's amazing how much some of what he demonstrates resembles features in Org and Emacs, and even surpasses them, over 50 years ago! Even the presentation itself, with picture-in-picture videoconferencing with screen sharing, surpasses most conference presentations on YouTube!
Re: [O] NLS/Augment
Jean Louis writes: > * Steve Quezadas [2019-08-12 05:59]: >> Guys, >> >> This is a slightly offtopic, but I've been using org-mode and I love love >> loveit. Was the writing of org-mode related in any way to Douglas >> Engelbart's NLS/Augment system? A lot of the features seem to crossover. Or >> is this simply coincidence? > > I have been watching the demonstration on these pages: > http://dougengelbart.org/content/view/216/000/#Augment > > and videos by Christina Engelbart, > https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLCGFadV4FqU15vunAfsTDzeEPnHDaf7n0=STRuciV6L38 > > Org mode look similar to that Augment browser, definitely. With > differences. But it looks as nice information management system. > > It would be good that Org mode gets some kind of "buttons follow the > mouse" feature upon turning it on, just as shown on this video: > https://vimeo.com/81238285 > I think (require 'org-mouse) provides lots of mouse support for opening/closing outlines, checking/unchecking checkboxes, etc. > as that would then easy mouse actions to open outlines, close > outlines. > > The Augment hierarchy reminds more on Koutline from GNU Hyperbole: > https://www.gnu.org/software/hyperbole/ and remind more to > Hyperbole type of explicit buttons, which can be used together with > Org mode. > > As I understand Internet and hyperlinks owe much to Doug Engelbert, as > he apparently invented many computing features that we use today. > > HyperScope is free software that works in browsers: > http://hyperscope.org/ > > > Jean -- Professor John Kitchin Doherty Hall A207F Department of Chemical Engineering Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh, PA 15213 412-268-7803 @johnkitchin http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu
Re: [O] NLS/Augment
* Steve Quezadas [2019-08-12 05:59]: > Guys, > > This is a slightly offtopic, but I've been using org-mode and I love love > loveit. Was the writing of org-mode related in any way to Douglas > Engelbart's NLS/Augment system? A lot of the features seem to crossover. Or > is this simply coincidence? I have been watching the demonstration on these pages: http://dougengelbart.org/content/view/216/000/#Augment and videos by Christina Engelbart, https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLCGFadV4FqU15vunAfsTDzeEPnHDaf7n0=STRuciV6L38 Org mode look similar to that Augment browser, definitely. With differences. But it looks as nice information management system. It would be good that Org mode gets some kind of "buttons follow the mouse" feature upon turning it on, just as shown on this video: https://vimeo.com/81238285 as that would then easy mouse actions to open outlines, close outlines. The Augment hierarchy reminds more on Koutline from GNU Hyperbole: https://www.gnu.org/software/hyperbole/ and remind more to Hyperbole type of explicit buttons, which can be used together with Org mode. As I understand Internet and hyperlinks owe much to Doug Engelbert, as he apparently invented many computing features that we use today. HyperScope is free software that works in browsers: http://hyperscope.org/ Jean
[O] NLS/Augment
Guys, This is a slightly offtopic, but I've been using org-mode and I love love loveit. Was the writing of org-mode related in any way to Douglas Engelbart's NLS/Augment system? A lot of the features seem to crossover. Or is this simply coincidence?
