Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Hi Eduardo,

Eduardo Mercovich  writes:

> Going back to think about some user testing, we should talk a bit about
> the test objectives to determine the sample screening, starting context
> and tasks...

Here are a the two main goals I see for https://orgmode.org:

- Answer the 3 top questions newbies ask themselves about Org.

- Answer the 3 top questions willing contributors ask themselves on
  how to contribute.

But you'll probably have many more ideas on how to use this space
effectively.  Perhaps you can discuss this off-list with Timothy and
come back with a plan (depending on the time/energy you both have for
this, of course)?

Let us know how it goes!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Eduardo Mercovich]

Hello Bastien! So long... :)

Pleasure to meet you Timothy. :)


IMHO if someone with UX/UI experience can/wants to interview real Org
newcomers, that will help us a lot for deciding about such tiny changes.



Unfortunately, it can be quite hard to find such people on the ML etc. (funny
about that ).



I'm copying Eduardo who volunteered in the past for this kind of work.


I would love to do this, maybe we can plan a bit for it... 


For what it’s worth, when doing the original website re-design I went to some
effort to get the thoughts of people who don’t use Org to make sure it did a
decent job communicating the essentials.



Definitely an ingredient of why your work improved the situation a lot!


Absolutely so! Congratulation and much thanks for your work with the
website. :)

Going back to think about some user testing, we should talk a bit about
the test objectives to determine the sample screening, starting context
and tasks...

I'll continue with the threads.


--
eduardo mercovich

Donde se cruzan tus talentos 
con las necesidades del mundo, 
ahí está tu vocación. 
(Anónimo)

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Timothy  writes:

> Done :)

Thanks!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Timothy]

Hi Bastien,

> Please go ahead with what seems better to you (especially since it
> matches Ihor’s preferences too), but if Eduardo has some time to help,
> it be great to really stabilize what kind of info is expected on this
> banner.

Done :)

All the best,
Timothy

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Ihor Radchenko  writes:

> So, we may create a badge with an icon representing src code (maybe
> " | source code"?) that will point to
> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/

+1

-- 
 Bastien

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Hi Timothy,

Timothy  writes:

>> IMHO if someone with UX/UI experience can/wants to interview real Org
>> newcomers, that will help us a lot for deciding about such tiny changes.
>
> Unfortunately, it can be quite hard to find such people on the ML etc. (funny
> about that ).

I'm copying Eduardo who volunteered in the past for this kind of work.

> For what it’s worth, when doing the original website re-design I went to some
> effort to get the thoughts of people who don’t use Org to make sure it did a
> decent job communicating the essentials.

Definitely an ingredient of why your work improved the situation a lot!

> With regards to the current banner, I’m inclined to remove the report bug 
> text:
> having that as well as the badge-link is simply confusing, and the badge-link 
> to
> the feedback page is better.

> We can also add a source code badge using the git icon and linking to
> , and I’d then be 
> inclined
> to remove the “Repository …” text for similar reasons.

I'd definitely love to get more feedback on this: I don't think the
current banner is *that* cluttered, and the info about the repo and
the way to send bug reports seems really useful - but perhaps that's
just me.

Please go ahead with what seems better to you (especially since it
matches Ihor's preferences too), but if Eduardo has some time to help,
it be great to really stabilize what kind of info is expected on this
banner.

Thanks!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Timothy]

Hi Bastien,

> IMHO if someone with UX/UI experience can/wants to interview real Org
> newcomers, that will help us a lot for deciding about such tiny changes.

Unfortunately, it can be quite hard to find such people on the ML etc. (funny
about that ).

For what it’s worth, when doing the original website re-design I went to some
effort to get the thoughts of people who don’t use Org to make sure it did a
decent job communicating the essentials.

With regards to the current banner, I’m inclined to remove the report bug text:
having that as well as the badge-link is simply confusing, and the badge-link to
the feedback page is better.

We can also add a source code badge using the git icon and linking to
, and I’d then be 
inclined
to remove the “Repository …” text for similar reasons.

All the best,
Timothy

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Hi Timothy,

Timothy  writes:

> I think we’d want people to see this, and so I’d actually be inclined to make
> the “bug report” button link to this page, and the feedback button just be a
> `mailto:' link.

Done!

> For what it’s worth, I personally consider stuffing lines of “important!” text
> into that “what is Org?” banner ultimately counterproductive. I think it fails
> to provide the information with enough context (e.g. `M-x 
> org-submit-bug-report
> RET' doesn’t provide the information provided on the Feedback.html page), and 
> it
> also muddies the structure of the page while making it appear more cluttered.

IMHO if someone with UX/UI experience can/wants to interview real Org
newcomers, that will help us a lot for deciding about such tiny changes.

Best,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Hi Max,

Max Nikulin  writes:

> "Install from ELPA" without "GNU".

Fixed, thanks.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Ihor Radchenko]

Timothy  writes:

>> My impression is that this change is against Timothy’s attempt to make the 
>> top
>> banner cleaner.
>
> For what it’s worth, I personally consider stuffing lines of “important!” text
> into that “what is Org?” banner ultimately counterproductive. I think it fails
> to provide the information with enough context (e.g. `M-x 
> org-submit-bug-report
> RET' doesn’t provide the information provided on the Feedback.html page), and 
> it
> also muddies the structure of the page while making it appear more cluttered.

I am slightly in favour of reducing the clutter.

Also, Bastien mentioned (AFAIU) an idea to have a badge for source
code. Maybe instead of git clone? I was previously reluctant to use
savannah link instead of copy-pasteable "git clone ..." text, but I now
notice that https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/ works
with git clone and the page even lists tarballs for the Org releases.

So, we may create a badge with an icon representing src code (maybe
" | source code"?) that will point to
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Timothy]

Hi Max,

>> Agreed – I removed this mailto: link as suggestion in a previous
>> reply to Tim…
>
> I am not against mailto: link, my intention was to improve message template.

Looking at , that seems like it’s much
better than just a mailto link or `M-x org-submit-bug-report RET' as it gives 
some
(IMO, rather crucial) surrounding information/instructions.

I think we’d want people to see this, and so I’d actually be inclined to make
the “bug report” button link to this page, and the feedback button just be a
`mailto:' link.

> My impression is that this change is against Timothy’s attempt to make the top
> banner cleaner.

For what it’s worth, I personally consider stuffing lines of “important!” text
into that “what is Org?” banner ultimately counterproductive. I think it fails
to provide the information with enough context (e.g. `M-x org-submit-bug-report
RET' doesn’t provide the information provided on the Feedback.html page), and it
also muddies the structure of the page while making it appear more cluttered.

All the best,
Timothy

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Max Nikulin]

On 23/09/2022 00:23, Bastien wrote:

Max Nikulin writes:


The updated page has

 alt="Install from ELPA"

that likely should be "Install from GNU ELPA".


Fixed, thanks.


However Firefox does not show tooltips (unlike for the Librepay link)
when mouse cursor is over new SVG images. I have no idea if
screenreaders will use value of the alt attributes.


I added title="" properties.


"Install from ELPA" without "GNU".


I expect that some fraction of messages at this list will have "[BUG]
" subject literally. Perhaps "=..." may be
added with a template like "Org version: ___, Emacs version: ___" with
a note requesting subject more specific to the particular
problem. Some people still will not read it.


Agreed -- I removed this mailto: link as suggestion in a previous
reply to Tim...


I am not against mailto: link, my intention was to improve message template.


An unrelated to the latest changes question. What is the supposed way
to reach https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html from site main page
(to become aware of M-x `org-submit-bug-report'?


... and placed the https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html link as
the target of the "feedback" svg icon.

I also added the M-x org-submit-bug-report RET exlpicitely, as it is
something we want users to discover very soon.


My impression is that this change is against Timothy's attempt to make 
the top banner cleaner. I would consider adding a paragraph with 
org-submit-bug-reports and Feedback.html link close to the "Joining the 
mailing list" section and would make "report bug" badge leading to this 
paragraph. "Feedback" badge link may point to "Joining the mailing list".

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Ihor Radchenko  writes:

> Bastien  writes:
>
>> Would it be okay to
>>
>> 1. replace both "report bug" and "feedback" buttons by a "feedback"
>>button, pointing to manual https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html ?
>
> I feel like it is good idea to keep both "report bug" and "feedback"
> buttons, even if they point to the same link. 

Done.

I'd also argue that a button with a link to
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/ would be good.

Timothy, what do you think?

Would you be able to provide a svg associated with the idea of "source
code" (or browsing the source code)?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien  writes:

> Would it be okay to
>
> 1. replace both "report bug" and "feedback" buttons by a "feedback"
>button, pointing to manual https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html ?

I feel like it is good idea to keep both "report bug" and "feedback"
buttons, even if they point to the same link. "report bug" is not always
associated with "feedback". Having both links may be easier for users to
navigate where they are aiming to.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Hi Max,

Max Nikulin  writes:

> The updated page has
>
> alt="Install from ELPA"
>
> that likely should be "Install from GNU ELPA". 

Fixed, thanks.

> I like that new link
> leads directly to the Org package at GNU ELPA, earlier version had a
> link to the site top page.

+1!

> However Firefox does not show tooltips (unlike for the Librepay link)
> when mouse cursor is over new SVG images. I have no idea if
> screenreaders will use value of the alt attributes.

I added title="" properties.

> I expect that some fraction of messages at this list will have "[BUG]
> " subject literally. Perhaps "=..." may be
> added with a template like "Org version: ___, Emacs version: ___" with
> a note requesting subject more specific to the particular
> problem. Some people still will not read it.

Agreed -- I removed this mailto: link as suggestion in a previous
reply to Tim...

> An unrelated to the latest changes question. What is the supposed way
> to reach https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html from site main page
> (to become aware of M-x `org-submit-bug-report'?

... and placed the https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html link as
the target of the "feedback" svg icon.  

I also added the M-x org-submit-bug-report RET exlpicitely, as it is
something we want users to discover very soon.

Thanks!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Max Nikulin]

On 20/09/2022 12:41, Timothy wrote:

Hi Bastien,

The whole top banner has become a bit messy, IMO. I’ll have a go at cleaning it
up later today. See Matrix for a preview I put together by just editing the
in-browser HTML. Also let me know if you don’t use Matrix at all, I just thought
I’d send you a message since you’re on there .


Timothy, thank you for improvements. Earlier edits in response to 
various requests resulted in some inconsistencies.


The updated page has

alt="Install from ELPA"

that likely should be "Install from GNU ELPA". I like that new link 
leads directly to the Org package at GNU ELPA, earlier version had a 
link to the site top page.


However Firefox does not show tooltips (unlike for the Librepay link) 
when mouse cursor is over new SVG images. I have no idea if 
screenreaders will use value of the alt attributes.


I expect that some fraction of messages at this list will have "[BUG] 
" subject literally. Perhaps "=..." may be added 
with a template like "Org version: ___, Emacs version: ___" with a note 
requesting subject more specific to the particular problem. Some people 
still will not read it.


An unrelated to the latest changes question. What is the supposed way to 
reach https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html from site main page (to 
become aware of M-x `org-submit-bug-report'?

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Hi Timothy,

Timothy  writes:

> The whole top banner has become a bit messy, IMO. I’ll have a go at cleaning 
> it
> up later today. See Matrix for a preview I put together by just editing the
> in-browser HTML. Also let me know if you don’t use Matrix at all, I just 
> thought

Thank you for the https://orgmode.org homepage enhancements!

One nitpick: using a mailto:emacs-orgmode@gnu.org?subject="...; : I'd
rather advertize M-x org-submit-bug-report RET than making it easier
to send just an email: the `org-submit-bug-report' function comes with
more information, and casual users might not know it.

Would it be okay to

1. replace both "report bug" and "feedback" buttons by a "feedback"
   button, pointing to manual https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html ?

2. Add a line above the Repository explicitely exposing the command
   M-x org-submit-bug-report RET ?

Let me know and I'll do it, thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Timothy  writes:

> The whole top banner has become a bit messy, IMO. I’ll have a go at cleaning 
> it
> up later today. 

As discussed on Matrix, please go ahead -- for future suggestions on
the website, it's fine to discuss them on this list.

Thanks a lot !

-- 
 Bastien

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Timothy]

Hi Bastien,

The whole top banner has become a bit messy, IMO. I’ll have a go at cleaning it
up later today. See Matrix for a preview I put together by just editing the
in-browser HTML. Also let me know if you don’t use Matrix at all, I just thought
I’d send you a message since you’re on there .

All the best,
Timothy

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Ihor Radchenko  writes:

> The only idea coming to my mind is turning "GNU ELPA" into a link.

Done, thanks the suggestion!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien  writes:

> Let us know if there is still something I can do to make it more
> obvious that this is GNU ELPA and not GNU MELPA.  Many users may
> make this confusion but I'm short of ideas.

The only idea coming to my mind is turning "GNU ELPA" into a link.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92

Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done

[Bastien]

Hi David,

David Ventimiglia via "General discussions about Org-mode."
 writes:

> Sorry, nevermind.

Done.  :)

Let us know if there is still something I can do to make it more
obvious that this is GNU ELPA and not GNU MELPA.  Many users may
make this confusion but I'm short of ideas.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien