Re: [PSES] LED Spots in EMC Chamber [General Use]

[Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK)]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

I will pass this information onto the person who raised this query.
>From the information I was provided the LED Spots issue a broadband noise seen 
>as rise in the ambient noise floor over the frequency range 30MHz to 180MHz, 
>there is some minor noise between 18MHz to 30MHz but the rest of the frequency 
>range between 20Hz and 18GHz is clean.
The effect on the 30MHz to 180MHz is a lift in the ambient noise floor 
approx..8-10dB around 40MHz getting less as the frequency increases. The test 
engineer stated that the measurements were still below spec limits but 
apparently during system measurements was enough to cause the unit to fail. 
(Unit passed when the LED Spots switched off.
There is no noise detectable during conducted emissions (20Hz to 150MHz).

Regards
Andy


 Andrew Price
 Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
 Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)

 Leonardo MW Ltd
 Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
 Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
 Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888
 
andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com
 leonardocomapany.com
HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS / SPACE

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Re: [PSES] Safe powering 12V doorlock

[John Woodgate]

There is no definition of PELV because the definition of 'SELV circuit' 
does not prohibit a connection to earth, as other definitions of SELV 
do. Also see Note 2:


NOTE 2 This definition of an SELV CIRCUIT differs from the term "SELV 
system" as used in IEC 61140.


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2017-11-23 04:49, Boštjan Glavič wrote:

Hi Piotr,

I agree with Rich.

According to specification, output also complies with LPS (Limited Power 
Source) therefore output must be SELV.

There is no PELV definition in IEC 60950-1.


About table 5B or 5C, which table you will use does not depend on output from your 
power supply but on mains voltage (main network system). For normal application we 
are using STAR system with 230V L to N voltage with OVC II --> you can use 
table 5B.

Table 5C is used for OVC III applications.

I hope this helps.

Best regards,
Bostjan

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[PSES] calibration of laser power and energy meters

[Boštjan Glavič]

Dear all,

Does anyone knows any calibration laboratory  that can perform traceable 
calibration of laser power and energy meters? Preferable in EU.

Thank you for your support.

Best regards,
Bostjan



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Re: [PSES] Safe powering 12V doorlock

[Boštjan Glavič]

Hi Piotr,

I agree with Rich.

According to specification, output also complies with LPS (Limited Power 
Source) therefore output must be SELV.

There is no PELV definition in IEC 60950-1.


About table 5B or 5C, which table you will use does not depend on output from 
your power supply but on mains voltage (main network system). For normal 
application we are using STAR system with 230V L to N voltage with OVC II --> 
you can use table 5B.

Table 5C is used for OVC III applications.

I hope this helps.

Best regards,
Bostjan 

-Original Message-
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2017 2:28 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Safe powering 12V doorlock

Hi Piotr:

The easy way to answer your questions is to request a copy of the TUV report.

1. I suppose that 12 doorlock manufacturer can use only functional isolation 
betwean 12V and its metal casing as he can assume (I think) that he gets safe 
voltage.
If I'm wrong with it let me know.

Yes, only functional insulation between the 12 volts and the metal casing.

2. Then as doorlock metal casing can be touched by user than 12V have to be 
SELV circuit I think.

Yes.  SELV or PELV; makes no difference.

3. I'm not sure if the 12V output from this supply is SELV - is it enough to 
test the isolation with 3kV.

No, 3 kV alone is not sufficient.  The isolation must also meet creepage and 
clearance distances after being subject to a mechanical test of the isolation 
means and the conductors.  

Best regards,
Rich

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Re: [PSES] Safe powering 12V doorlock

[Richard Nute]

Hi Piotr:

The easy way to answer your questions is to request a copy of the TUV report.

1. I suppose that 12 doorlock manufacturer can use only functional isolation 
betwean 12V and its metal casing as he can assume (I think) that he gets safe 
voltage.
If I'm wrong with it let me know.

Yes, only functional insulation between the 12 volts and the metal casing.

2. Then as doorlock metal casing can be touched by user than 12V have to be 
SELV circuit I think.

Yes.  SELV or PELV; makes no difference.

3. I'm not sure if the 12V output from this supply is SELV - is it enough to 
test the isolation with 3kV.

No, 3 kV alone is not sufficient.  The isolation must also meet creepage and 
clearance distances after being subject to a mechanical test of the isolation 
means and the conductors.  

Best regards,
Rich

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Re: [PSES] Safe powering 12V doorlock

[Richard Nute]

For definitions of ELV, SELV, and PELV, I turn to IEC TC64, Electrical 
installations and protection against electric shock, and its publication 61140, 
Protection against electric shock – Common aspects for installation and 
equipment. TC 64 is “to lay down basic safety requirements for protection 
against electric shock for use by technical committees.” IEC 61140 is “… a 
Basic Safety Publication intended for use by technical committees in the 
preparation of standards in accordance with the principles of IEC Guide 104 and 
ISO/IEC Guide 51.”

IEC 61140 defines ELV, SELV, and PELV:

3.26
extra-low-voltage (ELV)
any voltage not exceeding the relevant voltage limit specified in IEC 61201

3.26.1
SELV system
an electrical system in which the voltage cannot exceed ELV:
– under normal conditions; and
– under single-fault conditions, including earth faults in other circuits

3.26.2
PELV system
an electrical system in which the voltage cannot exceed ELV:
– under normal conditions, and
– under single-fault conditions, except earth faults in other circuits

Most product safety standards prohibit access to ELV on the assumption that ELV 
is not adequately separated from a higher voltage.

I admit that I don't understand the statements about earth faults in other 
circuits.  I don't know how an earth fault in another circuit can increase the 
voltage of SELV or PELV.  

However, in my reading of 61140, I did not find any requirement that either 
SELV or PELV could or could not be connected to earth.  

Rich



-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 2:52 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Safe powering 12V doorlock

The definition of PELV that I have is, I think, from IEC 60364, and it says 
'not electrically separated from earth', which I interpret as meaning 
'connected to earth but not necessarily with a connection that can withstand a 
large fault current'.

You must do as you see fit, but I think that if a potentially fatal fault, 
however improbable, could exist undetected, but could be neutralized by a 
simple earth connection, it would be good practice to provide the earth 
connection.

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] Safe powering 12V doorlock

[John Woodgate]

The definition of PELV that I have is, I think, from IEC 60364, and it 
says 'not electrically separated from earth', which I interpret as 
meaning 'connected to earth but not necessarily with a connection that 
can withstand a large fault current'.


You must do as you see fit, but I think that if a potentially fatal 
fault, however improbable, could exist undetected, but could be 
neutralized by a simple earth connection, it would be good practice to 
provide the earth connection.


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2017-11-22 19:42, Piotr Galka wrote:

John,

If the output is SELV earthed (in other standards PELV) then (as I 
read 60950-1) table 5B applies and test 3kV is ok. If you decide to 
use 5C table then because of earthing you can use one level lower test 
voltage (as I read Annex G) and you end also with 3kV test.
But there is no info about need to earth the 12V output of this 
supply, and I have other reasons to not earth it.
We produce access door controller and we are supposed to specify a 
metal box, power supply, battery to be used with our controller. I am 
just trying to find if I can specify this one (I like it because of 
its small dimensions).


As I understand PELV doesn't mean earthed but only not isolated from 
Earth with basic isolation. It can be isolated with functional 
isolation and it is PELV.


Where to find in 60950-1 how hard have to be earthing of SELV to allow 
for using table 5B. In 5.2.2 there is only word connected. Does that 
mean that any connection of 12V output to earth (even with 100m thin 
wire)  is enough to use table 5B?


Piotr



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Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

[James Pawson (U3C)]

There's also immunity to consider. If you are chucking around 10V/m or more 
then your lights could end up flickering. Could cause problems with remote 
monitoring via camera if monitoring brightness of a display for example. 
Obviously depends partly on cable routing for the lights. When I rebuilt my 
chamber I put the wiring for the lights behind the tiles.

Otherwise some good ideas. I'm looking at buying some cheap LED floods, gutting 
them and feeding them with DC from an external supply.

The light pipe idea is mint but I can imagine it is expensive. Aren't Dyson 
making a light pipe desk light these days?

James

 Brian O'Connell wrote 

>Dear member of the Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division, 
>
>Linear regulators, where the input is the output of a SMPS, are subject to the 
>limitations of the PSRR of the 78xx regulators; typically less than 20dB above 
>40kHz. Even if no SMPS, then the typical 78/79XX does little for the 'ambient' 
>stuff > 100kHz. As efficiency  should not be a principle design factor, avoid 
>SMPS in general, and switching LED drivers in specific; unless you need a 
>wide-spectrum noise source...
>
>Recently, had to replace the incandescents in my employer's humble chamber. My 
>solution was a discrete version of a LDO regulator configured for CC, where 
>the reference voltage was buffered and filtered and the op amp that drove the 
>series-pass mosfet was 2d order filtered. The mains power is from a 
>transformer model chosen for its inherent shielding and capacitive coupling 
>rating, and each bridge diode had a good (class II ceramic) capacitor. Output 
>of Bridge through a pi filter. Essentially no noise, except what CM stuff 
>manages to get coupled into the long DC power lines to the LEDs.
>
>The LEDs themselves can be a bit of a source noise if they get too warm, but 
>this can be decoupled, and seldom a problem if good CC source used (CV sources 
>cause shot noise and perform poorly with LEDs).
>
>An easier solution would be to use one the new LDO regulator designs, but be 
>wary of those using noisy bandgap references. TI and LT have some app notes on 
>linear current sources.
>
>Brian
>Member of the Desert Naval Cacti Offense Division
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK) [mailto:andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com] 
>Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 4:01 AM
>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>Subject: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
>
>Hi all.
>
>Has anyone had experience with using LED Spot lamps in EMC Chambers?
>What types/manufacturers would be recommended?
>
>Would appreciate help in trying to solve someone's problems with noise during 
>radiated emissions.
>Test Facility has just had all their chambers converted to LED Spots and they 
>are suffering broadband noise issues.
>
>Regards
>Andy
>
>
> Andrew Price
> Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
> Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)
>
> Leonardo MW Ltd
> Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
> Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
> Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888
> 
> andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com
> leonardocomapany.com
>
>-
>
>This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
>discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>
>
>All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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>
>Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
>http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
>formats), large files, etc.
>
>Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
>unsubscribe)
>List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
>For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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>Mike Cantwell 
>
>For policy questions, send mail to:
>Jim Bacher:  
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Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

[Ken Javor]

Larry Stillings gave a link:

http://www.panashield.com/emc_hybrid_absorber.asp

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



> From: "Grasso, Charles" 
> Reply-To: "Grasso, Charles" 
> Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 21:51:40 +
> To: 
> Conversation: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
> 
> Hey Ken - Cardboard absorber?
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 12:38 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
> 
> This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by:
> owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org
> 
> The white cardboard absorber does the job in concert with the underlying
> ferrite tile.  I don't know their performance alone, but based on size they
> don't do much below maybe 400 MHz or thereabouts.
> 
> Ken Javor
> Phone: (256) 650-5261
> 
> 
> 
>> From: Ralph McDiarmid 
>> Reply-To: Ralph McDiarmid 
>> Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 17:56:05 +
>> To: 
>> Conversation: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
>> Subject: Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
>> 
>> That's a great solution Ken.  BTW, do those white cardboard pyramids
>> absorb much RF?
>> 
>> Our old 3m chamber uses the blue foam pyramids only and four 60W ceiling
>> lights;  fairly dark inside on a good day.   And, the pyramids are held to
>> ceiling and walls with Velcro which doesn't really hold very well.
>> 
>> Ralph McDiarmid
>> Product Compliance
>> Engineering
>> Solar Business
>> Schneider Electric
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 8:28 AM
>> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> Subject: Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
>> 
>> One really excellent installation relied on the fact that the chamber
>> was ferrite tile-lined with an overlay of the white cardboard
>> pyramids.  Thus didn't need nearly as much light as ferrite tiles
>> alone or blue cones. LEDs were outside the chamber, placed in the end
>> of a plastic light pipe, which in turn penetrated into the chamber through a
>> waveguide-beyond-cutoff pipe.
>> All wiring and all noise outside the chamber.  Brilliant white light within.
>> 
>> Ken Javor
>> Phone: (256) 650-5261
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> From: "Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK)"
>>> 
>>> Reply-To: "Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK)"
>>> 
>>> Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 12:00:46 +
>>> To: 
>>> Conversation: Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
>>> Subject: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
>>> 
>>> Hi all.
>>> 
>>> Has anyone had experience with using LED Spot lamps in EMC Chambers?
>>> What types/manufacturers would be recommended?
>>> 
>>> Would appreciate help in trying to solve someone's problems with
>>> noise during radiated emissions.
>>> Test Facility has just had all their chambers converted to LED Spots
>>> and they are suffering broadband noise issues.
>>> 
>>> Regards
>>> Andy
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  Andrew Price
>>>  Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
>>>  Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)
>>> 
>>>  Leonardo MW Ltd
>>>  Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
>>>  Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
>>>  Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888
>>>  
>>> 
andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com>>
>
>>>  leonardocomapany.com
>>> HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS
>>> / SPACE
>>> 
>>> * Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
>>> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>>> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
>>> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
>>> distribute its contents to any other person.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -
>>> 
>>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
>>> emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
>>> e-mail to 
>>> 
>>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
>>> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>>> 
>>> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online 

Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

[Grasso, Charles]

Hey Ken - Cardboard absorber?

-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 12:38 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: 
owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org

The white cardboard absorber does the job in concert with the underlying 
ferrite tile.  I don't know their performance alone, but based on size they 
don't do much below maybe 400 MHz or thereabouts.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



> From: Ralph McDiarmid 
> Reply-To: Ralph McDiarmid 
> Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 17:56:05 +
> To: 
> Conversation: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
> 
> That's a great solution Ken.  BTW, do those white cardboard pyramids 
> absorb much RF?
> 
> Our old 3m chamber uses the blue foam pyramids only and four 60W ceiling
> lights;  fairly dark inside on a good day.   And, the pyramids are held to
> ceiling and walls with Velcro which doesn't really hold very well.
> 
> Ralph McDiarmid
> Product Compliance
> Engineering
> Solar Business
> Schneider Electric
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 8:28 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
> 
> One really excellent installation relied on the fact that the chamber 
> was ferrite tile-lined with an overlay of the white cardboard 
> pyramids.  Thus didn't need nearly as much light as ferrite tiles 
> alone or blue cones. LEDs were outside the chamber, placed in the end 
> of a plastic light pipe, which in turn penetrated into the chamber through a 
> waveguide-beyond-cutoff pipe.
> All wiring and all noise outside the chamber.  Brilliant white light within.
> 
> Ken Javor
> Phone: (256) 650-5261
> 
> 
> 
>> From: "Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK)"
>> 
>> Reply-To: "Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK)"
>> 
>> Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 12:00:46 +
>> To: 
>> Conversation: Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
>> Subject: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
>> 
>> Hi all.
>> 
>> Has anyone had experience with using LED Spot lamps in EMC Chambers?
>> What types/manufacturers would be recommended?
>> 
>> Would appreciate help in trying to solve someone's problems with 
>> noise during radiated emissions.
>> Test Facility has just had all their chambers converted to LED Spots 
>> and they are suffering broadband noise issues.
>> 
>> Regards
>> Andy
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  Andrew Price
>>  Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
>>  Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)
>> 
>>  Leonardo MW Ltd
>>  Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
>>  Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
>>  Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888
>>  
>> andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com
>>  leonardocomapany.com
>> HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS 
>> / SPACE
>> 
>> * Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended 
>> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended 
>> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
>> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or 
>> distribute its contents to any other person.
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> 
>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
>> emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your 
>> e-mail to 
>> 
>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
>> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>> 
>> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities 
>> site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for 
>> graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.
>> 
>> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
>> unsubscribe)
>> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>> 
>> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
>> Scott Douglas 
>> Mike Cantwell 
>> 
>> For policy questions, send mail to:
>> Jim Bacher:  
>> David Heald: 
> 
> -
> 

Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

[Brian O'Connell]

Dear member of the Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division, 

Linear regulators, where the input is the output of a SMPS, are subject to the 
limitations of the PSRR of the 78xx regulators; typically less than 20dB above 
40kHz. Even if no SMPS, then the typical 78/79XX does little for the 'ambient' 
stuff > 100kHz. As efficiency  should not be a principle design factor, avoid 
SMPS in general, and switching LED drivers in specific; unless you need a 
wide-spectrum noise source...

Recently, had to replace the incandescents in my employer's humble chamber. My 
solution was a discrete version of a LDO regulator configured for CC, where the 
reference voltage was buffered and filtered and the op amp that drove the 
series-pass mosfet was 2d order filtered. The mains power is from a transformer 
model chosen for its inherent shielding and capacitive coupling rating, and 
each bridge diode had a good (class II ceramic) capacitor. Output of Bridge 
through a pi filter. Essentially no noise, except what CM stuff manages to get 
coupled into the long DC power lines to the LEDs.

The LEDs themselves can be a bit of a source noise if they get too warm, but 
this can be decoupled, and seldom a problem if good CC source used (CV sources 
cause shot noise and perform poorly with LEDs).

An easier solution would be to use one the new LDO regulator designs, but be 
wary of those using noisy bandgap references. TI and LT have some app notes on 
linear current sources.

Brian
Member of the Desert Naval Cacti Offense Division


-Original Message-
From: Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK) [mailto:andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 4:01 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

Hi all.

Has anyone had experience with using LED Spot lamps in EMC Chambers?
What types/manufacturers would be recommended?

Would appreciate help in trying to solve someone's problems with noise during 
radiated emissions.
Test Facility has just had all their chambers converted to LED Spots and they 
are suffering broadband noise issues.

Regards
Andy


 Andrew Price
 Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
 Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)

 Leonardo MW Ltd
 Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
 Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
 Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888
 
andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com
 leonardocomapany.com

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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Re: [PSES] Safe powering 12V doorlock

[Piotr Galka]

John,

Reading EN 50491-3 (HBES and BACS safety) it looks that for devices like 
our controller 60950-1 is right choice. I have newer found the better 
fitting standrd.

Meanwell also selected 60950-1 for their supply.
So the only unknown are the standard for doorlock and wires :).

If the connection of SELV to allow for table 5B need not be serious but 
only connection then in power cross I would not be sure if it would just 
not be burn out without other effects and hazard would be unknown.


I am not doing myself the installations but as I know there are some 
rules which have to be followed. I believe the 12V cables can not be put 
together with 230V cables.


Piotr

W dniu 2017-11-22 o 19:51, John Woodgate pisze:


But does 60950-1 apply when the application is a door lock?  In any 
case, I am not suggesting that any particular power supply is 
unreliable, but you never know what happens in installations and 
'power cross' is not an unknown hazard.


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associateswww.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-11-22 18:09, Nyffenegger, Dave wrote:

In order for a power supply to meet SELV requirements it must pass all of the 
tests in the EN60950-1 standard for SELV which means component failure testing 
among other things, not simply isolation testing.  Meanwell power supplies that 
I have researched have been SELV.  Meanwell  has been very responsive if you 
contact technical support and will provide the lab reports showing the power 
supply passed the relevant SELV clauses in the standard.

If the power supply is UL approved the UL certificate available on the UL web 
site may indicate whether or not it's SELV as well as power supply class and 
other basic ratings.

-Dave

-Original Message-
From: Piotr Galka [mailto:piotr.ga...@micromade.pl]
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 12:51 PM
To:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Safe powering 12V doorlock

Dear safety experts,

Help me to make me sure that it is save to use the following power supply:
http://www.meanwell.com/webapp/product/search.aspx?prod=DRC-40
to power 12V doorlock with not earthed 12V supply.

I think that from practical point of view it is save but how it looks formally.

This supply is TUV EN60950-1 approved, and input to output is tested with 
3kVAC. There is no info if output is SELV or ELV.
Before asking them if their output is SELV I'd like to know if it has to be 
SELV, or if from info I have I can find it is SELV. I wont to use this case to 
learn myself more about safety.

Why I'm not sure.
1. I suppose that 12 doorlock manufacturer can use only functional isolation 
betwean 12V and its metal casing as he can assume (I think) that he gets safe 
voltage.
If I'm wrong with it let me know.
2. Then as doorlock metal casing can be touched by user than 12V have to be 
SELV circuit I think.
3. I'm not sure if the 12V output from this supply is SELV - is it enough to 
test the isolation with 3kV.

In EN 60950-1:2006 5.2.2 I understand that if output is not grounded or there 
is no protective screen than table 5C should be used.
I assume not earthing 12V.
I don't know if there is protective screen inside but as I can imagine such 
supply there have to be feedback and it is probably opto feedback - so can 
there be metal screen betwean LED and opto element and opto will work? I'm not 
sure if I understand well what is screen in accordance with 2.6.1 e).
  From Annex G I understand that for Overvoltage Category II transient voltage 
(Europe) will be 2k5V and from table 5C I have 5kV test needed.
So 3kV written in datasheet looks being not enough.

All till now I have written assuming the Overvoltage Category II. But reading 
Annex Z I'm not sure if access control system, as permanently installed, is 
integral building wiring or not. It seems me more like a fuse panel then 
permanently connected electric cooker. If category III then I end with 8kV 
testing - much more than 3kV.

It is TUV approved and under Applications the producer lists Access Systems so 
powering doorlock should be save. If it is true - where is my mistake.

Best Regards
Piotr Galka

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site 
athttp://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/  can be used for graphics (in 
well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website:http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Re: [PSES] Safe powering 12V doorlock

[Piotr Galka]

Dave,

I was thinking if first ask Meanwell or here, and decided to ask here 
believing I will learn more.
Till now from Meanwell reseller in Poland I know that for some supplies 
they specify that output is SELV, but for this one there is no such 
information.


I plan to ask them following discussion here.

Regards
Piotr


W dniu 2017-11-22 o 19:09, Nyffenegger, Dave pisze:

In order for a power supply to meet SELV requirements it must pass all of the 
tests in the EN60950-1 standard for SELV which means component failure testing 
among other things, not simply isolation testing.  Meanwell power supplies that 
I have researched have been SELV.  Meanwell  has been very responsive if you 
contact technical support and will provide the lab reports showing the power 
supply passed the relevant SELV clauses in the standard.

If the power supply is UL approved the UL certificate available on the UL web 
site may indicate whether or not it's SELV as well as power supply class and 
other basic ratings.

-Dave

-Original Message-
From: Piotr Galka [mailto:piotr.ga...@micromade.pl]
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 12:51 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Safe powering 12V doorlock

Dear safety experts,

Help me to make me sure that it is save to use the following power supply:
http://www.meanwell.com/webapp/product/search.aspx?prod=DRC-40
to power 12V doorlock with not earthed 12V supply.

I think that from practical point of view it is save but how it looks formally.

This supply is TUV EN60950-1 approved, and input to output is tested with 
3kVAC. There is no info if output is SELV or ELV.
Before asking them if their output is SELV I'd like to know if it has to be 
SELV, or if from info I have I can find it is SELV. I wont to use this case to 
learn myself more about safety.

Why I'm not sure.
1. I suppose that 12 doorlock manufacturer can use only functional isolation 
betwean 12V and its metal casing as he can assume (I think) that he gets safe 
voltage.
If I'm wrong with it let me know.
2. Then as doorlock metal casing can be touched by user than 12V have to be 
SELV circuit I think.
3. I'm not sure if the 12V output from this supply is SELV - is it enough to 
test the isolation with 3kV.

In EN 60950-1:2006 5.2.2 I understand that if output is not grounded or there 
is no protective screen than table 5C should be used.
I assume not earthing 12V.
I don't know if there is protective screen inside but as I can imagine such 
supply there have to be feedback and it is probably opto feedback - so can 
there be metal screen betwean LED and opto element and opto will work? I'm not 
sure if I understand well what is screen in accordance with 2.6.1 e).
  From Annex G I understand that for Overvoltage Category II transient voltage 
(Europe) will be 2k5V and from table 5C I have 5kV test needed.
So 3kV written in datasheet looks being not enough.

All till now I have written assuming the Overvoltage Category II. But reading 
Annex Z I'm not sure if access control system, as permanently installed, is 
integral building wiring or not. It seems me more like a fuse panel then 
permanently connected electric cooker. If category III then I end with 8kV 
testing - much more than 3kV.

It is TUV approved and under Applications the producer lists Access Systems so 
powering doorlock should be save. If it is true - where is my mistake.

Best Regards
Piotr Galka

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 



-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

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http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
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Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: 

Re: [PSES] Safe powering 12V doorlock

[Piotr Galka]

John,

If the output is SELV earthed (in other standards PELV) then (as I read 
60950-1) table 5B applies and test 3kV is ok. If you decide to use 5C 
table then because of earthing you can use one level lower test voltage 
(as I read Annex G) and you end also with 3kV test.
But there is no info about need to earth the 12V output of this supply, 
and I have other reasons to not earth it.
We produce access door controller and we are supposed to specify a metal 
box, power supply, battery to be used with our controller. I am just 
trying to find if I can specify this one (I like it because of its small 
dimensions).


As I understand PELV doesn't mean earthed but only not isolated from 
Earth with basic isolation. It can be isolated with functional isolation 
and it is PELV.


Where to find in 60950-1 how hard have to be earthing of SELV to allow 
for using table 5B. In 5.2.2 there is only word connected. Does that 
mean that any connection of 12V output to earth (even with 100m thin 
wire)  is enough to use table 5B?


Piotr


W dniu 2017-11-22 o 19:13, John Woodgate pisze:


We need to be very careful here. There is not a single definition of 
'SELV'. Some definitions allow the LV circuit to be earthed, some do 
not, and refer to 'Protected Extra-Low Voltage (PELV)' for SELV which 
is earthed. Non-earthed SELV is OK for some purposes, but  I don't 
like it for situations where an insulation failure (which might not be 
in the parts that are tested to 3 kV) allows the LV circuit to become 
live and for that fault to persist indefinitely undetected, which I 
think is your situation. For such applications I prefer PELV, and I 
think your 3 kV test may be acceptable for PELV, depending on which 
safety standard applies.


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associateswww.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-11-22 17:50, Piotr Galka wrote:

Dear safety experts,

Help me to make me sure that it is save to use the following power 
supply:

http://www.meanwell.com/webapp/product/search.aspx?prod=DRC-40
to power 12V doorlock with not earthed 12V supply.

I think that from practical point of view it is save but how it looks 
formally.


This supply is TUV EN60950-1 approved, and input to output is tested 
with 3kVAC. There is no info if output is SELV or ELV.
Before asking them if their output is SELV I'd like to know if it has 
to be SELV, or if from info I have I can find it is SELV. I wont to 
use this case to learn myself more about safety.


Why I'm not sure.
1. I suppose that 12 doorlock manufacturer can use only functional 
isolation betwean 12V and its metal casing as he can assume (I think) 
that he gets safe voltage.

If I'm wrong with it let me know.
2. Then as doorlock metal casing can be touched by user than 12V have 
to be SELV circuit I think.
3. I'm not sure if the 12V output from this supply is SELV - is it 
enough to test the isolation with 3kV.


In EN 60950-1:2006 5.2.2 I understand that if output is not grounded 
or there is no protective screen than table 5C should be used.

I assume not earthing 12V.
I don't know if there is protective screen inside but as I can 
imagine such supply there have to be feedback and it is probably opto 
feedback - so can there be metal screen betwean LED and opto element 
and opto will work? I'm not sure if I understand well what is screen 
in accordance with 2.6.1 e).
From Annex G I understand that for Overvoltage Category II transient 
voltage (Europe) will be 2k5V and from table 5C I have 5kV test 
needed. So 3kV written in datasheet looks being not enough.


All till now I have written assuming the Overvoltage Category II. But 
reading Annex Z I'm not sure if access control system, as permanently 
installed, is integral building wiring or not. It seems me more like 
a fuse panel then permanently connected electric cooker. If category 
III then I end with 8kV testing - much more than 3kV.


It is TUV approved and under Applications the producer lists Access 
Systems so powering doorlock should be save. If it is true - where is 
my mistake.


Best Regards
Piotr Galka

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your 
e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities 
site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for 
graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.


Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)

List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher: 
David 

Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

[Ken Javor]

The white cardboard absorber does the job in concert with the underlying
ferrite tile.  I don't know their performance alone, but based on size they
don't do much below maybe 400 MHz or thereabouts.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



> From: Ralph McDiarmid 
> Reply-To: Ralph McDiarmid 
> Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 17:56:05 +
> To: 
> Conversation: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
> 
> That's a great solution Ken.  BTW, do those white cardboard pyramids absorb
> much RF?
> 
> Our old 3m chamber uses the blue foam pyramids only and four 60W ceiling
> lights;  fairly dark inside on a good day.   And, the pyramids are held to
> ceiling and walls with Velcro which doesn't really hold very well.
> 
> Ralph McDiarmid
> Product Compliance
> Engineering
> Solar Business
> Schneider Electric
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 8:28 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
> 
> One really excellent installation relied on the fact that the chamber was
> ferrite tile-lined with an overlay of the white cardboard pyramids.  Thus
> didn't need nearly as much light as ferrite tiles alone or blue cones. LEDs
> were outside the chamber, placed in the end of a plastic light pipe, which in
> turn penetrated into the chamber through a waveguide-beyond-cutoff pipe.
> All wiring and all noise outside the chamber.  Brilliant white light within.
> 
> Ken Javor
> Phone: (256) 650-5261
> 
> 
> 
>> From: "Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK)"
>> 
>> Reply-To: "Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK)"
>> 
>> Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 12:00:46 +
>> To: 
>> Conversation: Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
>> Subject: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
>> 
>> Hi all.
>> 
>> Has anyone had experience with using LED Spot lamps in EMC Chambers?
>> What types/manufacturers would be recommended?
>> 
>> Would appreciate help in trying to solve someone's problems with noise
>> during radiated emissions.
>> Test Facility has just had all their chambers converted to LED Spots
>> and they are suffering broadband noise issues.
>> 
>> Regards
>> Andy
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  Andrew Price
>>  Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
>>  Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)
>> 
>>  Leonardo MW Ltd
>>  Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
>>  Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
>>  Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888
>>  
>> andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com
>>  leonardocomapany.com
>> HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS
>> / SPACE
>> 
>> * Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
>> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
>> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
>> distribute its contents to any other person.
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> 
>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
>> emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
>> e-mail to 
>> 
>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
>> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>> 
>> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities
>> site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for
>> graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.
>> 
>> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
>> unsubscribe)
>> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>> 
>> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
>> Scott Douglas 
>> Mike Cantwell 
>> 
>> For policy questions, send mail to:
>> Jim Bacher:  
>> David Heald: 
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are 

Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

[Patrick]

We purchased these for a 10 m chamber.  They are floods, not spots, but I
thought it worthwhile to forward.

They have an option for suspended mount, but we chose to mount them flush
to the ceiling.  The emissions are so low that we can not detect any change
to the ambient (commercial freq range, 30MHz - 40 GHz) with power on or
off.

We liked them so much we bought another set for our second chamber.  Very
pleased with the product.  No affiliation

Cree CXB-A-UV-H-40K-8-UL-10V


-Patrick


On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 5:01 AM Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK) <
andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com> wrote:

> Hi all.
>
> Has anyone had experience with using LED Spot lamps in EMC Chambers?
> What types/manufacturers would be recommended?
>
> Would appreciate help in trying to solve someone's problems with noise
> during radiated emissions.
> Test Facility has just had all their chambers converted to LED Spots and
> they are suffering broadband noise issues.
>
> Regards
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>  Andrew Price
>  Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
>  Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)
>
>  Leonardo MW Ltd
>  Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
>  Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
>  Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888
>  andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com>
>  leonardocomapany.com
> HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS /
> SPACE
>
> * Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
>
>
>
> 
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> 
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> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
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> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
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> well-used formats), large files, etc.
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-- 
//
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Re: [PSES] Safe powering 12V doorlock

[John Woodgate]

But does 60950-1 apply when the application is a door lock?  In any 
case, I am not suggesting that any particular power supply is 
unreliable, but you never know what happens in installations and 'power 
cross' is not an unknown hazard.


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2017-11-22 18:09, Nyffenegger, Dave wrote:

In order for a power supply to meet SELV requirements it must pass all of the 
tests in the EN60950-1 standard for SELV which means component failure testing 
among other things, not simply isolation testing.  Meanwell power supplies that 
I have researched have been SELV.  Meanwell  has been very responsive if you 
contact technical support and will provide the lab reports showing the power 
supply passed the relevant SELV clauses in the standard.

If the power supply is UL approved the UL certificate available on the UL web 
site may indicate whether or not it's SELV as well as power supply class and 
other basic ratings.

-Dave

-Original Message-
From: Piotr Galka [mailto:piotr.ga...@micromade.pl]
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 12:51 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Safe powering 12V doorlock

Dear safety experts,

Help me to make me sure that it is save to use the following power supply:
http://www.meanwell.com/webapp/product/search.aspx?prod=DRC-40
to power 12V doorlock with not earthed 12V supply.

I think that from practical point of view it is save but how it looks formally.

This supply is TUV EN60950-1 approved, and input to output is tested with 
3kVAC. There is no info if output is SELV or ELV.
Before asking them if their output is SELV I'd like to know if it has to be 
SELV, or if from info I have I can find it is SELV. I wont to use this case to 
learn myself more about safety.

Why I'm not sure.
1. I suppose that 12 doorlock manufacturer can use only functional isolation 
betwean 12V and its metal casing as he can assume (I think) that he gets safe 
voltage.
If I'm wrong with it let me know.
2. Then as doorlock metal casing can be touched by user than 12V have to be 
SELV circuit I think.
3. I'm not sure if the 12V output from this supply is SELV - is it enough to 
test the isolation with 3kV.

In EN 60950-1:2006 5.2.2 I understand that if output is not grounded or there 
is no protective screen than table 5C should be used.
I assume not earthing 12V.
I don't know if there is protective screen inside but as I can imagine such 
supply there have to be feedback and it is probably opto feedback - so can 
there be metal screen betwean LED and opto element and opto will work? I'm not 
sure if I understand well what is screen in accordance with 2.6.1 e).
  From Annex G I understand that for Overvoltage Category II transient voltage 
(Europe) will be 2k5V and from table 5C I have 5kV test needed.
So 3kV written in datasheet looks being not enough.

All till now I have written assuming the Overvoltage Category II. But reading 
Annex Z I'm not sure if access control system, as permanently installed, is 
integral building wiring or not. It seems me more like a fuse panel then 
permanently connected electric cooker. If category III then I end with 8kV 
testing - much more than 3kV.

It is TUV approved and under Applications the producer lists Access Systems so 
powering doorlock should be save. If it is true - where is my mistake.

Best Regards
Piotr Galka

-

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list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

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list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

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http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
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Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: 

Re: [PSES] Safe powering 12V doorlock

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

In order for a power supply to meet SELV requirements it must pass all of the 
tests in the EN60950-1 standard for SELV which means component failure testing 
among other things, not simply isolation testing.  Meanwell power supplies that 
I have researched have been SELV.  Meanwell  has been very responsive if you 
contact technical support and will provide the lab reports showing the power 
supply passed the relevant SELV clauses in the standard.

If the power supply is UL approved the UL certificate available on the UL web 
site may indicate whether or not it's SELV as well as power supply class and 
other basic ratings.  

-Dave

-Original Message-
From: Piotr Galka [mailto:piotr.ga...@micromade.pl] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 12:51 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Safe powering 12V doorlock

Dear safety experts,

Help me to make me sure that it is save to use the following power supply:
http://www.meanwell.com/webapp/product/search.aspx?prod=DRC-40
to power 12V doorlock with not earthed 12V supply.

I think that from practical point of view it is save but how it looks formally.

This supply is TUV EN60950-1 approved, and input to output is tested with 
3kVAC. There is no info if output is SELV or ELV.
Before asking them if their output is SELV I'd like to know if it has to be 
SELV, or if from info I have I can find it is SELV. I wont to use this case to 
learn myself more about safety.

Why I'm not sure.
1. I suppose that 12 doorlock manufacturer can use only functional isolation 
betwean 12V and its metal casing as he can assume (I think) that he gets safe 
voltage.
If I'm wrong with it let me know.
2. Then as doorlock metal casing can be touched by user than 12V have to be 
SELV circuit I think.
3. I'm not sure if the 12V output from this supply is SELV - is it enough to 
test the isolation with 3kV.

In EN 60950-1:2006 5.2.2 I understand that if output is not grounded or there 
is no protective screen than table 5C should be used.
I assume not earthing 12V.
I don't know if there is protective screen inside but as I can imagine such 
supply there have to be feedback and it is probably opto feedback - so can 
there be metal screen betwean LED and opto element and opto will work? I'm not 
sure if I understand well what is screen in accordance with 2.6.1 e).
 From Annex G I understand that for Overvoltage Category II transient voltage 
(Europe) will be 2k5V and from table 5C I have 5kV test needed. 
So 3kV written in datasheet looks being not enough.

All till now I have written assuming the Overvoltage Category II. But reading 
Annex Z I'm not sure if access control system, as permanently installed, is 
integral building wiring or not. It seems me more like a fuse panel then 
permanently connected electric cooker. If category III then I end with 8kV 
testing - much more than 3kV.

It is TUV approved and under Applications the producer lists Access Systems so 
powering doorlock should be save. If it is true - where is my mistake.

Best Regards
Piotr Galka

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

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http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

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Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

-

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http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

[Ralph McDiarmid]

Series-pass regulator with a simple bridge rectifier is not zero emission, but 
negligible compared to a well-filtered switch-mode PSU.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 7:44 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

78 series regulators (except 78Sx which are switchers) do produce a little 
noise but I expect you have them well shielded. There are, of course, 'quieter' 
regulators.
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates http://www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-11-22 14:49, john.mcauley wrote:
We use LED spots in our anechoic chambers. They are running now for several 
years. 

However we replaced the switcher with a linear PSU. We installed a transformer, 
bridge rectifier and constant current source using an LM7805 in each one. Works 
a treat and they are zero emission. We have had to do a small amount of EMI 
suppression on noise from the diodes. 

The LED is OK. It is DC. 

We never tried the unmodified unit with the cheap and nasty switching constant 
current drive. We assumed they would be totally unsuitable. 

John McAuley
Compliance Engineering International

Sent from my phone.

 Original message 
From: John Allen mailto:09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org 
Date: 22/11/2017 2:03 PM (GMT+01:00) 
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use] 

Could there also be various high frequency sources within the lamps themselves 
which would are not filtered by the filters external to the chamber (and the 
lamps may not have properly shielded bodies and/or lenses)?
 
John E Allen
W.London, UK
 
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 12:10 PM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
 
It's hardly surprising, is it? These lamps are not designed for the very 
special EMC environment of test chambers.  Lamps using a DC supply are 
indicated, but the DC supply itself must be specially filtered and installed 
outside the chamber.
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates http://www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-11-22 12:00, Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK) wrote:
Hi all.
 
Has anyone had experience with using LED Spot lamps in EMC Chambers?
What types/manufacturers would be recommended?
 
Would appreciate help in trying to solve someone's problems with noise during 
radiated emissions.
Test Facility has just had all their chambers converted to LED Spots and they 
are suffering broadband noise issues.
 
Regards
Andy
 
 
 
 
 Andrew Price
 Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
     Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)
 
 Leonardo MW Ltd
 Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
 Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
 Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888
 
mailto:andrew.p.price@leonardocompany.commailto:andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com
 leonardocomapany.com
HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS / SPACE
 
* Please consider the environment before printing this email.
 
 
 
 

This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.

 
-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org
 
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
 
Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
 
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-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

Re: [PSES] Safe powering 12V doorlock

[John Woodgate]

We need to be very careful here. There is not a single definition of 
'SELV'. Some definitions allow the LV circuit to be earthed, some do 
not, and refer to 'Protected Extra-Low Voltage (PELV)' for SELV which is 
earthed. Non-earthed SELV is OK for some purposes, but  I don't like it 
for situations where an insulation failure (which might not be in the 
parts that are tested to 3 kV) allows the LV circuit to become live and 
for that fault to persist indefinitely undetected, which I think is your 
situation. For such applications I prefer PELV, and I think your 3 kV 
test may be acceptable for PELV, depending on which safety standard 
applies.


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2017-11-22 17:50, Piotr Galka wrote:

Dear safety experts,

Help me to make me sure that it is save to use the following power 
supply:

http://www.meanwell.com/webapp/product/search.aspx?prod=DRC-40
to power 12V doorlock with not earthed 12V supply.

I think that from practical point of view it is save but how it looks 
formally.


This supply is TUV EN60950-1 approved, and input to output is tested 
with 3kVAC. There is no info if output is SELV or ELV.
Before asking them if their output is SELV I'd like to know if it has 
to be SELV, or if from info I have I can find it is SELV. I wont to 
use this case to learn myself more about safety.


Why I'm not sure.
1. I suppose that 12 doorlock manufacturer can use only functional 
isolation betwean 12V and its metal casing as he can assume (I think) 
that he gets safe voltage.

If I'm wrong with it let me know.
2. Then as doorlock metal casing can be touched by user than 12V have 
to be SELV circuit I think.
3. I'm not sure if the 12V output from this supply is SELV - is it 
enough to test the isolation with 3kV.


In EN 60950-1:2006 5.2.2 I understand that if output is not grounded 
or there is no protective screen than table 5C should be used.

I assume not earthing 12V.
I don't know if there is protective screen inside but as I can imagine 
such supply there have to be feedback and it is probably opto feedback 
- so can there be metal screen betwean LED and opto element and opto 
will work? I'm not sure if I understand well what is screen in 
accordance with 2.6.1 e).
From Annex G I understand that for Overvoltage Category II transient 
voltage (Europe) will be 2k5V and from table 5C I have 5kV test 
needed. So 3kV written in datasheet looks being not enough.


All till now I have written assuming the Overvoltage Category II. But 
reading Annex Z I'm not sure if access control system, as permanently 
installed, is integral building wiring or not. It seems me more like a 
fuse panel then permanently connected electric cooker. If category III 
then I end with 8kV testing - much more than 3kV.


It is TUV approved and under Applications the producer lists Access 
Systems so powering doorlock should be save. If it is true - where is 
my mistake.


Best Regards
Piotr Galka

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your 
e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities 
site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for 
graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.


Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)

List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 



-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

[PSES] Safe powering 12V doorlock

[Piotr Galka]

Dear safety experts,

Help me to make me sure that it is save to use the following power supply:
http://www.meanwell.com/webapp/product/search.aspx?prod=DRC-40
to power 12V doorlock with not earthed 12V supply.

I think that from practical point of view it is save but how it looks 
formally.


This supply is TUV EN60950-1 approved, and input to output is tested 
with 3kVAC. There is no info if output is SELV or ELV.
Before asking them if their output is SELV I'd like to know if it has to 
be SELV, or if from info I have I can find it is SELV. I wont to use 
this case to learn myself more about safety.


Why I'm not sure.
1. I suppose that 12 doorlock manufacturer can use only functional 
isolation betwean 12V and its metal casing as he can assume (I think) 
that he gets safe voltage.

If I'm wrong with it let me know.
2. Then as doorlock metal casing can be touched by user than 12V have to 
be SELV circuit I think.
3. I'm not sure if the 12V output from this supply is SELV - is it 
enough to test the isolation with 3kV.


In EN 60950-1:2006 5.2.2 I understand that if output is not grounded or 
there is no protective screen than table 5C should be used.

I assume not earthing 12V.
I don't know if there is protective screen inside but as I can imagine 
such supply there have to be feedback and it is probably opto feedback - 
so can there be metal screen betwean LED and opto element and opto will 
work? I'm not sure if I understand well what is screen in accordance 
with 2.6.1 e).
From Annex G I understand that for Overvoltage Category II transient 
voltage (Europe) will be 2k5V and from table 5C I have 5kV test needed. 
So 3kV written in datasheet looks being not enough.


All till now I have written assuming the Overvoltage Category II. But 
reading Annex Z I'm not sure if access control system, as permanently 
installed, is integral building wiring or not. It seems me more like a 
fuse panel then permanently connected electric cooker. If category III 
then I end with 8kV testing - much more than 3kV.


It is TUV approved and under Applications the producer lists Access 
Systems so powering doorlock should be save. If it is true - where is my 
mistake.


Best Regards
Piotr Galka

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

[Ralph McDiarmid]

That's a great solution Ken.  BTW, do those white cardboard pyramids absorb 
much RF?

Our old 3m chamber uses the blue foam pyramids only and four 60W ceiling 
lights;  fairly dark inside on a good day.   And, the pyramids are held to 
ceiling and walls with Velcro which doesn't really hold very well.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 8:28 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

One really excellent installation relied on the fact that the chamber was 
ferrite tile-lined with an overlay of the white cardboard pyramids.  Thus 
didn't need nearly as much light as ferrite tiles alone or blue cones. LEDs 
were outside the chamber, placed in the end of a plastic light pipe, which in 
turn penetrated into the chamber through a waveguide-beyond-cutoff pipe.
All wiring and all noise outside the chamber.  Brilliant white light within.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



> From: "Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK)" 
> 
> Reply-To: "Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK)" 
> 
> Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 12:00:46 +
> To: 
> Conversation: Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
> Subject: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
> 
> Hi all.
> 
> Has anyone had experience with using LED Spot lamps in EMC Chambers?
> What types/manufacturers would be recommended?
> 
> Would appreciate help in trying to solve someone's problems with noise 
> during radiated emissions.
> Test Facility has just had all their chambers converted to LED Spots 
> and they are suffering broadband noise issues.
> 
> Regards
> Andy
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Andrew Price
>  Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
>  Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)
> 
>  Leonardo MW Ltd
>  Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
>  Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
>  Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888
>  
> andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com
>  leonardocomapany.com
> HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS 
> / SPACE
> 
> * Please consider the environment before printing this email.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended 
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended 
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or 
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> 
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
> emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your 
> e-mail to 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities 
> site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for 
> graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.
> 
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Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

[Ken Javor]

One really excellent installation relied on the fact that the chamber was
ferrite tile-lined with an overlay of the white cardboard pyramids.  Thus
didn't need nearly as much light as ferrite tiles alone or blue cones. LEDs
were outside the chamber, placed in the end of a plastic light pipe, which
in turn penetrated into the chamber through a waveguide-beyond-cutoff pipe.
All wiring and all noise outside the chamber.  Brilliant white light within.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



> From: "Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK)" 
> Reply-To: "Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK)" 
> Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 12:00:46 +
> To: 
> Conversation: Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
> Subject: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]
> 
> Hi all.
> 
> Has anyone had experience with using LED Spot lamps in EMC Chambers?
> What types/manufacturers would be recommended?
> 
> Would appreciate help in trying to solve someone's problems with noise during
> radiated emissions.
> Test Facility has just had all their chambers converted to LED Spots and they
> are suffering broadband noise issues.
> 
> Regards
> Andy
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Andrew Price
>  Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
>  Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)
> 
>  Leonardo MW Ltd
>  Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
>  Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
>  Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888
>  
> andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com
>  leonardocomapany.com
> HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS / SPACE
> 
> * Please consider the environment before printing this email.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> 
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used
> formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe)
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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> Mike Cantwell 
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
> David Heald: 

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Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

[John Woodgate]

78 series regulators (except 78Sx which are switchers) do produce a 
little noise but I expect you have them well shielded. There are, of 
course, 'quieter' regulators.


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2017-11-22 14:49, john.mcauley wrote:
We use LED spots in our anechoic chambers. They are running now for 
several years.


However we replaced the switcher with a linear PSU. We installed a 
transformer, bridge rectifier and constant current source using an 
LM7805 in each one. Works a treat and they are zero emission. We have 
had to do a small amount of EMI suppression on noise from the diodes.


The LED is OK. It is DC.

We never tried the unmodified unit with the cheap and nasty switching 
constant current drive. We assumed they would be totally unsuitable.


John McAuley
Compliance Engineering International

Sent from my phone.

 Original message 
From: John Allen <09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>
Date: 22/11/2017 2:03 PM (GMT+01:00)
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

Could there also be various high frequency sources within the lamps 
themselves which would are not filtered by the filters external to the 
chamber (and the lamps may not have properly shielded bodies and/or 
lenses)?


John E Allen

W.London, UK

*From:*John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 22, 2017 12:10 PM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

It's hardly surprising, is it? These lamps are not designed for the 
very special EMC environment of test chambers.  Lamps using a DC 
supply are indicated, but the DC supply itself must be specially 
filtered and installed outside the chamber.


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associateswww.woodjohn.uk 
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2017-11-22 12:00, Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK) wrote:

Hi all.

Has anyone had experience with using LED Spot lamps in EMC Chambers?

What types/manufacturers would be recommended?

Would appreciate help in trying to solve someone's problems with noise 
during radiated emissions.

Test Facility has just had all their chambers converted to LED Spots and 
they are suffering broadband noise issues.

Regards

Andy

  Andrew Price

  Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division

      Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)

  Leonardo MW Ltd

  Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK

  Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308

  Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888

  andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com




  leonardocomapany.com

HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS / 
SPACE

* Please consider the environment before printing this email.



This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended

recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended

recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.

You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or

distribute its contents to any other person.



-



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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your 
e-mail to >

Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

[john.mcauley]

We use LED spots in our anechoic chambers. They are running now for several 
years. 
However we replaced the switcher with a linear PSU. We installed a transformer, 
bridge rectifier and constant current source using an LM7805 in each one. Works 
a treat and they are zero emission. We have had to do a small amount of EMI 
suppression on noise from the diodes. 
The LED is OK. It is DC. 
We never tried the unmodified unit with the cheap and nasty switching constant 
current drive. We assumed they would be totally unsuitable. 
John McAuleyCompliance Engineering International
Sent from my phone.
 Original message From: John Allen 
<09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> Date: 22/11/2017  2:03 PM  
(GMT+01:00) To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots 
in EMC Chambers [General Use] 
Could there also be various high frequency sources within the lamps themselves 
which would are not filtered by the filters external to the chamber (and the 
lamps may not have properly shielded bodies and/or lenses)? John E 
AllenW.London, UK From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 12:10 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use] It's hardly 
surprising, is it? These lamps are not designed for the very special EMC 
environment of test chambers.  Lamps using a DC supply are indicated, but the 
DC supply itself must be specially filtered and installed outside the 
chamber.John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions OnlyJ M Woodgate and Associates 
www.woodjohn.ukRayleigh, Essex UKOn 2017-11-22 12:00, Price, Andrew (Leonardo, 
UK) wrote:Hi all. Has anyone had experience with using LED Spot lamps in EMC 
Chambers?What types/manufacturers would be recommended? Would appreciate help 
in trying to solve someone's problems with noise during radiated emissions.Test 
Facility has just had all their chambers converted to LED Spots and they are 
suffering broadband noise issues. RegardsAndy Andrew Price  
   Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division     Prinicpal 
Environmental Engineer (EMC)  Leonardo MW Ltd Sigma 
House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK Tel  EMC LAB : 
+44 (0)1268 883308 Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888 
andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com   
  leonardocomapany.comHELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE 
AND SECURITY SYSTEMS / SPACE * Please consider the environment before printing 
this email.
This email 
and any attachments are confidential to the intendedrecipient and may also be 
privileged. If you are not the intendedrecipient please delete it from your 
system and notify the sender.You should not copy it or use it for any purpose 
nor disclose ordistribute its contents to any other 
person. 
-This message 
is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. 
To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to  All 
emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web 
at:http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the 
IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can 
be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website:  
http://www.ieee-pses.org/Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html 
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from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To 
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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 

Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

[Kunde, Brian]

We just had our metal halide light fixtures replaced with LED fixtures in our 
large 10 meter Semi Anechoic Chamber and they are GREAT!!!  I have requested 
the Make and Model Number information from our Maintenance Department which 
I'll pass on when I get it. This is a holiday weekend for us so most are on 
vacation right now.

Anyway, every two to three years we had to have our metal halide bulbs changed 
because they would start arcing and messing up our Radiated Emissions results. 
We have a local rep. for All-Phase Electric who helps our maintenance 
department choose new energy saving light fixture technologies for our company. 
The rep. would bring in samples of the newest light fixtures and we would test 
them in our chamber for Emissions. Most were absolutely terrible due to noise 
from the internal switching power supplies. So I didn't have much hope when he 
dropped off the latest sample of an LED array light fixture for us to try out 
this past summer.

It was amazing!! Initially, we only picked up a little hump between 100Mhz and 
200Mhz where our noise floor is the lowest. The LED Light has an interface 
(about 2ft of wire coming out of a strain relief) for a Dimming Feature which 
we are not going to use. This pigtail wire was radiating a little and a little 
was coming off the power cord. So the Dimmer pigtail can be cut off if not 
needed or I just bundled it real short and put a cable tie around it.  I also 
put two snap-on ferrite beads on the power cord and all detectible emissions 
were gone.  Simple fixes.

I took the new LED fixture apart and found it be well built and well shielded. 
Inside, I found a MeanWell power supply completely encased in a metal chassis. 
I think the fixture is waterproof and could be used outside.  In any case, I 
was impressed.

When we installed the new lights, I had the two farthest from the antenna 
installed first. Then we ran a baseline and all we saw was noise-floor. Then we 
installed the remaining six with the same results. I was concerned about the 
fixture that is directly over the antenna which gets close when raised to 4 
meter off the floor, but again, nothing but noise floor.

Needless to say we have been very happy with these new lights. The only issue 
is that LED lights are very directional and shines mostly straight down. On one 
half of our chamber where the light fixtures are mounted a little farther 
apart, there is a shadow on the floor right in the down the middle, which is no 
big deal.

Like I said, when I get the model information, I'll pass it on.

Happy Holidays and God Bless.

The Other Brian

-Original Message-
From: Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK) [mailto:andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 7:01 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

Hi all.

Has anyone had experience with using LED Spot lamps in EMC Chambers?
What types/manufacturers would be recommended?

Would appreciate help in trying to solve someone's problems with noise during 
radiated emissions.
Test Facility has just had all their chambers converted to LED Spots and they 
are suffering broadband noise issues.

Regards
Andy




 Andrew Price
 Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
 Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)

 Leonardo MW Ltd
 Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
 Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
 Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888
 
andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com
 leonardocomapany.com
HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS / SPACE

* Please consider the environment before printing this email.





This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and 
may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it 
from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its 
contents to any other person.


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For help, send mail to the list 

Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

[John Allen]

Could there also be various high frequency sources within the lamps
themselves which would are not filtered by the filters external to the
chamber (and the lamps may not have properly shielded bodies and/or lenses)?

 

John E Allen

W.London, UK

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 12:10 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

 

It's hardly surprising, is it? These lamps are not designed for the very
special EMC environment of test chambers.  Lamps using a DC supply are
indicated, but the DC supply itself must be specially filtered and installed
outside the chamber.

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk  
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2017-11-22 12:00, Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK) wrote:

Hi all.
 
Has anyone had experience with using LED Spot lamps in EMC Chambers?
What types/manufacturers would be recommended?
 
Would appreciate help in trying to solve someone's problems with noise
during radiated emissions.
Test Facility has just had all their chambers converted to LED Spots and
they are suffering broadband noise issues.
 
Regards
Andy
 
 
 
 
 Andrew Price
 Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
 Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)
 
 Leonardo MW Ltd
 Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
 Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
 Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888
 andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com



 leonardocomapany.com
HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS /
SPACE
 
* Please consider the environment before printing this email.
 
 
 
 

This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.

 
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 >

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[PSES] personel lifting equipment

[Kim Boll Jensen]

Hi

 

I have trouble finding requirements for a baby cradle rocker. The rocker is
at the same time the cradle fixing. The rocker have 2 hooks one for hanging
it from eg. a hook in sealing and the other hook is used to hang the cradle
on. (The cradle is made mostly of fabric and is CE marked).

 

The rocker do not lift the baby but keep it at same level and according to
the machinery Directive it is therefore not a lifting equipment.

 

What will be the correct standards and requirements for the hooks??

 

I would like to tell the manufacturer that they shall use hooks with safety
latch, but I can't find the argument. I know the standards EN 1677-xx but
how can I find a reference that state that the hooks need to comply with
these requirements??

 

Best regards,

 

Kim Boll


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Re: [PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

[John Woodgate]

It's hardly surprising, is it? These lamps are not designed for the very 
special EMC environment of test chambers.  Lamps using a DC supply are 
indicated, but the DC supply itself must be specially filtered and 
installed outside the chamber.


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2017-11-22 12:00, Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK) wrote:

Hi all.

Has anyone had experience with using LED Spot lamps in EMC Chambers?
What types/manufacturers would be recommended?

Would appreciate help in trying to solve someone's problems with noise during 
radiated emissions.
Test Facility has just had all their chambers converted to LED Spots and they 
are suffering broadband noise issues.

Regards
Andy




  Andrew Price
  Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
  Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)

  Leonardo MW Ltd
  Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
  Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
  Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888
  
andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com
  leonardocomapany.com
HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS / SPACE

* Please consider the environment before printing this email.





This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.


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Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

[PSES] Use of LED Spots in EMC Chambers [General Use]

[Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK)]

Hi all.

Has anyone had experience with using LED Spot lamps in EMC Chambers?
What types/manufacturers would be recommended?

Would appreciate help in trying to solve someone's problems with noise during 
radiated emissions.
Test Facility has just had all their chambers converted to LED Spots and they 
are suffering broadband noise issues.

Regards
Andy




 Andrew Price
 Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
 Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)

 Leonardo MW Ltd
 Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
 Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
 Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888
 
andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com
 leonardocomapany.com
HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS / SPACE

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