Re: [PSES] Listing confusion

2019-07-19 Thread Nyffenegger, Dave 
Doug, There is so much confusion and inaccuracy out there on this topic I could 
write a book on it.  The majority of the OEM spec sheets I deal with do not 
have the compliance information clearly identified and mix up the difference 
between actual NRTL approvals and the standards.  I can only hope when the put 
the NRTL artwork mark on the data sheets that the product is actually 
certified/listed.  Otherwise when they just list a UL standard under 
“approvals” I have to confirm who actually certified it.

Just this week I had to explain to one of my supplier OEM product managers, 
that no, their product is not UL listed, it is ETL certified to a UL standard.  
Their documentation is clear and correct but they’ve been verbally 
communicating it was “UL listed”.  I sometimes act as an intermediary between 
Intertek and my OEM, having pointed them to Intertek.

-Dave

From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 10:43 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Listing confusion

All,

Well actually, I'm not confused. But I'm certain some consumers are.

I ran across an LED lighting fixture product and they were promoting "ETL and 
DLC Listed", of course I became curious. DLC is a consortium about energy 
efficiency and in this company's view DLC gets top billing along with ETL 
safety certification. DLC has been around for some time and possibly this is 
the first time I've seen the two promoted in this manner, but it got my 
attention. Some companies ethically make the distinction that DLC is not a 
safety certification while others do not.

Maybe I'm blowing this all out of proportion and possibly I'm becoming 
territoriality minded, I simply don't want other people treading on my safety 
certs soil and that said we certainly don't have exclusive use of the generic 
word "listed". I simply don't like the phrase DLC Listed. I've seen this sort 
of thing before when acronyms are added to product labeling a little like 
NASCAR racing stickers or all the special labeling for food and shampoo, that 
is when it is used as a sales tool. Of course, the more acronyms and symbols 
you add to a product the better it is, right?  Maybe someday we'll have 
fat-free, range-free, non-GMO, fair trade, gluten free, grass fed, humanely 
handled, made from recycled HDPE lighting products... or maybe not.

Here is that DLC link, https://www.designlights.org/

Happy Friday and best to all, Doug
--
Douglas E Powell
doug...@gmail.com<mailto:doug...@gmail.com>
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01


-


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Re: [PSES] Listing confusion

2019-07-19 Thread Nyffenegger, Dave 
Caveat Emptor I guess.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 11:13 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Listing confusion


Unfortunately, the DLC logos include the L-word:

https://www.designlights.org/terms/logo-guidelines/

Best wishes

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk>

Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2019-07-19 15:43, Doug Powell wrote:
All,

Well actually, I'm not confused. But I'm certain some consumers are.

I ran across an LED lighting fixture product and they were promoting "ETL and 
DLC Listed", of course I became curious. DLC is a consortium about energy 
efficiency and in this company's view DLC gets top billing along with ETL 
safety certification. DLC has been around for some time and possibly this is 
the first time I've seen the two promoted in this manner, but it got my 
attention. Some companies ethically make the distinction that DLC is not a 
safety certification while others do not.

Maybe I'm blowing this all out of proportion and possibly I'm becoming 
territoriality minded, I simply don't want other people treading on my safety 
certs soil and that said we certainly don't have exclusive use of the generic 
word "listed". I simply don't like the phrase DLC Listed. I've seen this sort 
of thing before when acronyms are added to product labeling a little like 
NASCAR racing stickers or all the special labeling for food and shampoo, that 
is when it is used as a sales tool. Of course, the more acronyms and symbols 
you add to a product the better it is, right?  Maybe someday we'll have 
fat-free, range-free, non-GMO, fair trade, gluten free, grass fed, humanely 
handled, made from recycled HDPE lighting products... or maybe not.

Here is that DLC link, https://www.designlights.org/

Happy Friday and best to all, Doug
--
Douglas E Powell
doug...@gmail.com<mailto:doug...@gmail.com>
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01


-


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

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David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>

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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Re: [PSES] Listing confusion

2019-07-19 Thread Doug Powell 
Yes, and it is an especially fancy monogram too.  Multi-color process makes
labels more expensive.

Best, Doug


On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 9:13 AM John Woodgate  wrote:

> Unfortunately, the DLC logos include the L-word:
>
> https://www.designlights.org/terms/logo-guidelines/
>
> Best wishes
> John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
> J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
> Rayleigh, Essex UK
>
> On 2019-07-19 15:43, Doug Powell wrote:
>
> All,
>
> Well actually, I'm not confused. But I'm certain some consumers are.
>
> I ran across an LED lighting fixture product and they were promoting "*ETL
> and DLC Listed*", of course I became curious. DLC is a consortium about
> energy efficiency and in this company's view DLC gets top billing along
> with ETL safety certification. DLC has been around for some time and
> possibly this is the first time I've seen the two promoted in this manner,
> but it got my attention. Some companies ethically make the distinction that
> DLC is not a safety certification while others do not.
>
> Maybe I'm blowing this all out of proportion and possibly I'm becoming
> territoriality minded, I simply don't want other people treading on my
> safety certs soil and that said we certainly don't have exclusive use of
> the generic word "listed". I simply don't like the phrase *DLC Listed*.
> I've seen this sort of thing before when acronyms are added to product
> labeling a little like NASCAR racing stickers or all the special labeling
> for food and shampoo, that is when it is used as a sales tool. Of course,
> the more acronyms and symbols you add to a product the better it is,
> right?  Maybe someday we'll have fat-free, range-free, non-GMO, fair trade,
> gluten free, grass fed, humanely handled, made from recycled HDPE lighting
> products... or maybe not.
>
> Here is that DLC link, https://www.designlights.org/
>
> Happy Friday and best to all, Doug
> --
> Douglas E Powell
> doug...@gmail.com
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
>
>

-- 

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald:

Re: [PSES] Listing confusion

2019-07-19 Thread Doug Powell 
Right.

Its an age old argument about UL Certified.  I've had clients who believe
UL is a government department of some kind.  The other NRTLs do spend some
effort to correct this mistake of their own validity vs UL, usually in the
form of a white paper and UL is nearly silent on the matter. Same kind of
confusion exists over listed vs recognized, etc. I had one person tell me
the recognized is not as good as listed and is inferior in some way. While
there may be some truth in that this part is not in full compliance, he
meant it in a denigrating manner.

Best, Doug


On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 9:07 AM Nyffenegger, Dave <
dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com> wrote:

> Doug, There is so much confusion and inaccuracy out there on this topic I
> could write a book on it.  The majority of the OEM spec sheets I deal with
> do not have the compliance information clearly identified and mix up the
> difference between actual NRTL approvals and the standards.  I can only
> hope when the put the NRTL artwork mark on the data sheets that the product
> is actually certified/listed.  Otherwise when they just list a UL standard
> under “approvals” I have to confirm who actually certified it.
>
>
>
> Just this week I had to explain to one of *my* supplier OEM product
> managers, that no, *their* product is not UL listed, it is ETL certified
> to a UL standard.  Their documentation is clear and correct but they’ve
> been verbally communicating it was “UL listed”.  I sometimes act as an
> intermediary between Intertek and my OEM, having pointed them to Intertek.
>
>
>
> -Dave
>
>
>
> *From:* Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, July 19, 2019 10:43 AM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [PSES] Listing confusion
>
>
>
> All,
>
>
>
> Well actually, I'm not confused. But I'm certain some consumers are.
>
>
>
> I ran across an LED lighting fixture product and they were promoting "*ETL
> and DLC Listed*", of course I became curious. DLC is a consortium about
> energy efficiency and in this company's view DLC gets top billing along
> with ETL safety certification. DLC has been around for some time and
> possibly this is the first time I've seen the two promoted in this manner,
> but it got my attention. Some companies ethically make the distinction that
> DLC is not a safety certification while others do not.
>
>
>
> Maybe I'm blowing this all out of proportion and possibly I'm becoming
> territoriality minded, I simply don't want other people treading on my
> safety certs soil and that said we certainly don't have exclusive use of
> the generic word "listed". I simply don't like the phrase *DLC Listed*.
> I've seen this sort of thing before when acronyms are added to product
> labeling a little like NASCAR racing stickers or all the special labeling
> for food and shampoo, that is when it is used as a sales tool. Of course,
> the more acronyms and symbols you add to a product the better it is,
> right?  Maybe someday we'll have fat-free, range-free, non-GMO, fair trade,
> gluten free, grass fed, humanely handled, made from recycled HDPE lighting
> products... or maybe not.
>
>
>
> Here is that DLC link, https://www.designlights.org/
>
>
>
> Happy Friday and best to all, Doug
>
> --
>
> Douglas E Powell
>
> doug...@gmail.com
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
>


-- 

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

-

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Re: [PSES] Listing confusion

2019-07-19 Thread John Woodgate 

Unfortunately, the DLC logos include the L-word:

https://www.designlights.org/terms/logo-guidelines/

Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2019-07-19 15:43, Doug Powell wrote:

All,

Well actually, I'm not confused. But I'm certain some consumers are.

I ran across an LED lighting fixture product and they were promoting 
"/ETL and DLC Listed/", of course I became curious. DLC is a 
consortium about energy efficiency and in this company's view DLC gets 
top billing along with ETL safety certification. DLC has been around 
for some time and possibly this is the first time I've seen the two 
promoted in this manner, but it got my attention. Some companies 
ethically make the distinction that DLC is not a safety certification 
while others do not.


Maybe I'm blowing this all out of proportion and possibly I'm becoming 
territoriality minded, I simply don't want other people treading on my 
safety certs soil and that said we certainly don't have exclusive use 
of the generic word "listed". I simply don't like the phrase /DLC 
Listed/. I've seen this sort of thing before when acronyms are added 
to product labeling a little like NASCAR racing stickers or all the 
special labeling for food and shampoo, that is when it is used as a 
sales tool. Of course, the more acronyms and symbols you add to a 
product the better it is, right?  Maybe someday we'll have fat-free, 
range-free, non-GMO, fair trade, gluten free, grass fed, humanely 
handled, made from recycled HDPE lighting products... or maybe not.


Here is that DLC link, https://www.designlights.org/

Happy Friday and best to all, Doug
--
Douglas E Powell
doug...@gmail.com 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01


-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your 
e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html


Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities 
site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for 
graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.


Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

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Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

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Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>



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list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

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formats), large files, etc.

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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
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[PSES] Listing confusion

2019-07-19 Thread Doug Powell 
All,

Well actually, I'm not confused. But I'm certain some consumers are.

I ran across an LED lighting fixture product and they were promoting "*ETL
and DLC Listed*", of course I became curious. DLC is a consortium about
energy efficiency and in this company's view DLC gets top billing along
with ETL safety certification. DLC has been around for some time and
possibly this is the first time I've seen the two promoted in this manner,
but it got my attention. Some companies ethically make the distinction that
DLC is not a safety certification while others do not.

Maybe I'm blowing this all out of proportion and possibly I'm becoming
territoriality minded, I simply don't want other people treading on my
safety certs soil and that said we certainly don't have exclusive use of
the generic word "listed". I simply don't like the phrase *DLC Listed*.
I've seen this sort of thing before when acronyms are added to product
labeling a little like NASCAR racing stickers or all the special labeling
for food and shampoo, that is when it is used as a sales tool. Of course,
the more acronyms and symbols you add to a product the better it is,
right?  Maybe someday we'll have fat-free, range-free, non-GMO, fair trade,
gluten free, grass fed, humanely handled, made from recycled HDPE lighting
products... or maybe not.

Here is that DLC link, https://www.designlights.org/

Happy Friday and best to all, Doug
-- 
Douglas E Powell
doug...@gmail.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

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Jim Bacher:  
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