subject:"Re\: \[PSES\] Dual antenna during RE test \?"

Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

2022-05-11 Thread Ken Javor

Electro-Metrics used to, but they don’t show on their web site.  Eaton/Ailtech 
used to, but not in the business anymore. I have log-spirals from EMCO and 
Eaton spanning 100 MHz to 10 GHz.  Never saw any spec’d below 100 MHz.

 

-- 

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261

 

From: "James Pawson (U3C)" 
Reply-To: "James Pawson (U3C)" 
Date: Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:43 AM
To: 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

Hi Ken, all,

 

The conversation about log spiral antennas has got me thinking and searching. 
Apart from the Emco / ETS 3100 series, are there any other antennas covering 
the 200MHz to 1GHz band that one could consider?

 

Has anyone seen log spiral antennas that work down below 80MHz (I appreciate 
that size starts to become a limiting factor)?

 

Thanks in advance and all the best

James

 

 

James Pawson

Managing Director & EMC Problem Solver

 

Unit 3 Compliance Ltd

EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA : Consultancy

 

www.unit3compliance.co.uk  |  ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk 

+44(0)1274 911747  |  +44(0)7811 139957

2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL

Registered in England and Wales # 10574298

 

 

 

From: Ken Javor  
Sent: 06 May 2022 19:26
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

For RE, the single biggest improvement for schedule is to use a time domain or 
FFT EMI receiver.  Basically that is 1 second for each multi-MHz sweep.  If 
your platform has a limited number of microwave uplinks, the entire RE test 
will take a few seconds. A log-spiral eliminates the need for dual polarization 
measurements, but the time savings will all be in the changeover, not the 
actual reduced number of sweeps.

 

Also, no RE test outside receiver bands. At low frequencies (10/150 kHz to say 
200 MHz) control cable common mode currents to control crosstalk. This is 
paired with a BCI-type requirement like a tailored CS114.  Cables that meet the 
BCE (bulk cable emissions) and BCI requirement may be laid side-by-side with no 
concern for separation.

 

RS is where time savings need to be found.  No RS outside of transmitter bands. 
 You need to account for off-platform transmitters if your platform is 
operational when such might be in operation.  But only those 
equipments/subsystems that would be active at those times.  

 

Log-spirals are a must in this situation.  They will cut test time in half.  
And that is significant for RS.  They are available 100/200 MHz to 10 GHz, 
which covers most needs.  With any of today’s broadband instantaneous bandwidth 
amplifiers, as many signal generators may be combined as desired to further 
reduce test time.  The frequencies would have to be close together, because you 
need the field calibration device response as well as the transmit antenna gain 
to be flat over the range of simultaneously transmitted frequencies.  Depending 
on the item tested, if the response is immediate (don’t need a 1 or 3 second 
dwell time) you could consider wideband frequency modulation using a single 
signal generator to accomplish the same thing. If the FM deviation were say 1%, 
you could step in 1% steps, instead of the much smaller ones typically 
prescribed at microwave frequencies.

 

 

-- 

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261

From: Patrick 
Reply-To: Patrick 
Date: Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:50 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

Ken - once again, I agree with you.

 

I don't see any path where dual antenna or dual tone can be used for 
thresholding and debug

Finding any susceptibility moves a test to "normal" mode.

 

My motivation comes from the last RS test I was in... (really, every RS test 
I've ever been in!)

It was 8 to 10 hours of boredom with one or two minutes of excitement.

 

As an engineer, I can't help but ask, how can I make this more efficient?

Or... 

Why spend 10 hours in test, when 2.5 hours might provide the same result?

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 9:20 AM Ken Javor  wrote:

If the signal generators are inexpensive enough, more signals is more 
efficient. Rather than two antennas, I again suggest a log-spiral, where you 
get both polarizations at once.

 

With any of these “hurry up” schemes, if you see a susceptibility, you will 
need to step back and use the traditional technique.

 

-- 

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261

 

From: Patrick 
Reply-To: Patrick 
Date: Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:14 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

yes, agree.

two tones and single antenna is promoted by AR.  So what is next level 
improvement?

 

Can we speed tests even more with two antennas, simultaneous V ?

 

Wondering if 2x antenna plus 2x tone will cut test time by 4x.   

 

On Fri, May 6, 2022, 09:08 Ken Javor  wrote:

The AR approach of multiple frequencies at the same time from a single antenna 
seems simpler.

 

-- 

K

Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

2022-05-11 Thread James Pawson (U3C)

Hi Ken, all,



The conversation about log spiral antennas has got me thinking and searching. 
Apart from the Emco / ETS 3100 series, are there any other antennas covering 
the 200MHz to 1GHz band that one could consider?



Has anyone seen log spiral antennas that work down below 80MHz (I appreciate 
that size starts to become a limiting factor)?



Thanks in advance and all the best

James





James Pawson

Managing Director & EMC Problem Solver



Unit 3 Compliance Ltd

EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA : Consultancy



 <http://www.unit3compliance.co.uk/> www.unit3compliance.co.uk  |   
<mailto:ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk> ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk

+44(0)1274 911747  |  +44(0)7811 139957

2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL

Registered in England and Wales # 10574298







From: Ken Javor 
Sent: 06 May 2022 19:26
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?



For RE, the single biggest improvement for schedule is to use a time domain or 
FFT EMI receiver.  Basically that is 1 second for each multi-MHz sweep.  If 
your platform has a limited number of microwave uplinks, the entire RE test 
will take a few seconds. A log-spiral eliminates the need for dual polarization 
measurements, but the time savings will all be in the changeover, not the 
actual reduced number of sweeps.



Also, no RE test outside receiver bands. At low frequencies (10/150 kHz to say 
200 MHz) control cable common mode currents to control crosstalk. This is 
paired with a BCI-type requirement like a tailored CS114.  Cables that meet the 
BCE (bulk cable emissions) and BCI requirement may be laid side-by-side with no 
concern for separation.



RS is where time savings need to be found.  No RS outside of transmitter bands. 
 You need to account for off-platform transmitters if your platform is 
operational when such might be in operation.  But only those 
equipments/subsystems that would be active at those times.



Log-spirals are a must in this situation.  They will cut test time in half.  
And that is significant for RS.  They are available 100/200 MHz to 10 GHz, 
which covers most needs.  With any of today’s broadband instantaneous bandwidth 
amplifiers, as many signal generators may be combined as desired to further 
reduce test time.  The frequencies would have to be close together, because you 
need the field calibration device response as well as the transmit antenna gain 
to be flat over the range of simultaneously transmitted frequencies.  Depending 
on the item tested, if the response is immediate (don’t need a 1 or 3 second 
dwell time) you could consider wideband frequency modulation using a single 
signal generator to accomplish the same thing. If the FM deviation were say 1%, 
you could step in 1% steps, instead of the much smaller ones typically 
prescribed at microwave frequencies.





--

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261

From: Patrick mailto:conwa...@gmail.com> >
Reply-To: Patrick mailto:conwa...@gmail.com> >
Date: Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:50 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:emc-p...@listserv.ieee.orge>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?



Ken - once again, I agree with you.



I don't see any path where dual antenna or dual tone can be used for 
thresholding and debug

Finding any susceptibility moves a test to "normal" mode.



My motivation comes from the last RS test I was in... (really, every RS test 
I've ever been in!)

It was 8 to 10 hours of boredom with one or two minutes of excitement.



As an engineer, I can't help but ask, how can I make this more efficient?

Or...

Why spend 10 hours in test, when 2.5 hours might provide the same result?













On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 9:20 AM Ken Javor mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com> > wrote:

If the signal generators are inexpensive enough, more signals is more 
efficient. Rather than two antennas, I again suggest a log-spiral, where you 
get both polarizations at once.



With any of these “hurry up” schemes, if you see a susceptibility, you will 
need to step back and use the traditional technique.



--

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261



From: Patrick mailto:conwa...@gmail.com> >
Reply-To: Patrick mailto:conwa...@gmail.com> >
Date: Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:14 PM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> >
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?



yes, agree.

two tones and single antenna is promoted by AR.  So what is next level 
improvement?



Can we speed tests even more with two antennas, simultaneous V ?



Wondering if 2x antenna plus 2x tone will cut test time by 4x.



On Fri, May 6, 2022, 09:08 Ken Javor mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com> > wrote:

The AR approach of multiple frequencies at the same time from a single antenna 
seems simpler.



--

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261



From: Patrick mailto:conwa...@gmail.com> >
Reply-To: Patric

Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

2022-05-07 Thread Cortland Richmond

When Tandy sold out to another one gone [AST Research], I was working on a 
midnight emissions site trying to find how a computer's RF was getting "out" on 
our outdoor site with  a LOT of broadcast RF.

I added another antenna to the test equipment coax with caox, a "T" connector, 
and an adjustable attenuator to move the "stranger"  to null and until I got a 
low broadcast spur on the screen and got down under the broadcaster's RF. 
Interesting, but very useful, if only to see if any of the product's failing RF 
was anything under the BC noise.

It turned out to be a too-thin conductive paint on the plastic "floor" -- and I 
had to write up how to fix it of course -- with a better way to put on the 
spray applied paint, this time, all  axis sprayed.


Cortland Richmond
Retired from the Grand Rapids GE at 67 
Some Belcan contracts  til' age 70 or so.
 
-Original Message-
From: Brent DeWitt 
Sent: May 6, 2022 9:49 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?
 
Brings back memories!  MANY moons ago, I ran an OATS in the foothills of 
Colorado with lots of radio and TV ambients.  Thought I'd give the two antenna 
cancellation thing a quick experiment.  I had one antenna on out 10 meter test 
mast and put a second one on the edge of our 3 meter diameter turntable with a 
preamp and attenuator on one of them.  With that arrangement, I could adjust 
both the relative amplitude and phase of FM and TV signals over a pretty good 
range, to get the best null.  After a day or so of playing around, I found that 
I could poke a 15-20 dB hole in some signals, but barely change some others.  
After scratching my head for a while, I realized that the ones I could cancel 
were almost line-of-sight from Cheyenne, and the ones I couldn't were from 
Denver.  The light went on.  I was in a narrow mountain canyon, so the signals 
from Denver had so much multi-path reflection, that whatever one you canceled 
stll left three or four others with different phase relationship.  With that 
realization, I went down to Lyons and had a beer.

On 5/6/2022 1:57 AM, Bill Owsley wrote:
Tried the dual antennas to subtract out the ambients, several times since the 
explanation was good.
About 20 years ago.  Unsat !!!



 

On Monday, May 2, 2022, 02:23:26 PM EDT, Ken Javor  
(mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com) wrote:
 
 
Likely a totally different application than yours, but a long time ago on OATS 
measurements, there was development of a two-antenna test where one was for the 
actual measurement, but the other was pointed away to pick up the ambient, and 
the idea was to subtract the ambient out, and leave only the EUT emissions.
 
It was controversial.
 
MIL-STD-826 (1964 – 1967) had radiated emission antenna set-up drawings showing 
all antennas deployed simultaneously. In the days when each antenna had its own 
receiver, if you had enough techs that could speed up the test significantly. 
It should be noted that was unique to MIL-STD-826 and it did not survive into 
MIL-STD-461.
 
I’m thinking in your specific application, the antennas should be separated by 
some distance, so that they don’t affect each other. What that separation needs 
to be will depend on the desired uncertainty in the measurement.
 
-- 
Ken Javor


(256) 650-5261
 
From: Patrick  (mailto:conwa...@gmail.com)Reply-To: Patrick  
(mailto:conwa...@gmail.com)Date: Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:00 PMTo:  
(mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG)Subject: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

Hi All -

 

I'm wondering if there is any academic or practical literature on the use of 
two antennas during an emissions test.  For example, research or experiments on 
the use of two DRH's above 1.0 GHz, side-by-side, one vertical, the other 
horizontal.

 

Have any researchers looked at this?  

Are there any experimental studies?

 

Thank you.

-Patrick


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Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

2022-05-06 Thread Bill Owsley

 Generally apply reciprocity, if it does not emit, it is not susceptible !
So far the immunity tests have been boring, no issues ! 
Ps. for emissions, I do not play margin games.  I kill (reduce) the sources to 
the noise floor !
It follows that immunity should follow, and to date it has.
Lucky guy !


On Friday, May 6, 2022, 11:03:32 AM EDT, Patrick  
wrote:  
 
 Hi Bill and everyone-I am grateful for the insights.  

I have two goals- first is two antennas for radiated emissions.  
Second goal is dual antenna for radiated susceptibility(i.e. immunity ).The 
insights on emissions are a great start.  

Has anyone attempted dual antennas for susceptibility/immunity?
-Patrick.

On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 10:52 PM Bill Owsley 
<00f5a03f18eb-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:

 No clue as to what your thinking is about using multiple antennas in testing.
We used 4 masts, high band and low band at 3 m and 10 m..
NSA came out fine.  Been doing it for about 3 or more decades.
If ya gots the money, spend it on more hardware.
One radiated run in about 30 minutes cover high and low band at 3m and 10m.
All interesting freq noted for followup.
ps. Even tho' all document the azimuth and altitude, no one uses it later.
Useless info to fill out.  Every test setup is different, even using the same 
equipment.


On Monday, May 2, 2022, 06:10:34 PM EDT, David Schaefer 
<12867effceb4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:  
 
 
Prescans you could do vertical and horizontal at the same time, but the problem 
with final data is you need to maximize. The worst turntable angle for V and H 
is probably different, so you can’t maximize the antenna height at the same 
time. 
 
  
 
There is also the issue of NSA – was NSA data taken with the 2nd antenna and 
mast in the chamber? And with them both moving how will that affect results?
 
  
 
I heard the Keysight team in California was planning on taking some data to 
investigate, but that was pre-covid so it probably got put on the back burner.
 
  
 


 
 
  
 
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From: Paasche, Dieter [mailto:dieter.paas...@christiedigital.com]
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 3:59 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?
 
  
 
CAUTION:This email originated from outside of Element Materials Technology. DO 
NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know 
the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if you are in any doubt 
about this email.
 
Hi,
 
  
 
I have seen that too at HP in Sacramento, CA. One antenna was in Vertical 
polarization and the other in Vertical. In my personal opinion, it is Ok for 
pre-scan, but I think it is complicated for the final scan. I think you still 
have to test each frequency and polarization one by one.
 
  
 
Sincerely,
 
  
 
Dieter Paasche
 
  
 
This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is confidential.  Any 
unauthorized use, distribution or disclosure is prohibited.  If you have 
received this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail 
or telephone and delete it and any attachments from your computer system and 
records.
 
  
 
From: Manny Barron 
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2022 4:46 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?
 
  
 
|  | 
CAUTION:This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.
  |


  
 
Back around 1998 when I worked for Tandem Computers (purchased by Compaq in 
1998, then purchased by HP in 2001), I visited the HP EMC Lab in Washington 
state (I went to see their 10m chamber since we were thinking of getting a 2nd 
10m chamber, which we did). 
 
  
 
Well they used two antennas connected to two separate receivers for their RE 
tests. Can't remember if it was horizontal and vertical OR if it was two 
frequency ranges (30-300MHz and 300-1000MHz), but it was definitely two 
antennas and two receivers.  At that time they were also experimenting with 4 
antennas but I think still 2 receivers, but don't know if that was actually 
implemented. They wrote their own custom test software to handle the multiple 
antenna / receiver combinations.  The guy who ran that HP EMC test lab was Bob 
Dockey who later went to Philips Medical, if you can find him maybe he can 
elaborate on their RE test system of the time.
 
  
 
A year later we (now Compaq) purchased a new 10m chamber (now we had two), so I

Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

2022-05-06 Thread Bill Owsley

 In general ... proper design upfront and before testing anomalies, should 
prevent all these considerations, and that is why we are here, to prevent the 
extra work.
But when all our efforts don't get all the problems, roll up our sleeves and 
get to work.



On Friday, May 6, 2022, 12:50:40 PM EDT, Patrick  
wrote:  
 
 Ken - once again, I agree with you.
I don't see any path where dual antenna or dual tone can be used for 
thresholding and debug
Finding any susceptibility moves a test to "normal" mode.
My motivation comes from the last RS test I was in... (really, every RS test 
I've ever been in!)
It was 8 to 10 hours of boredom with one or two minutes of excitement.
As an engineer, I can't help but ask, how can I make this more efficient?Or... 
Why spend 10 hours in test, when 2.5 hours might provide the same result?






On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 9:20 AM Ken Javor  wrote:


If the signal generators are inexpensive enough, more signals is more 
efficient. Rather than two antennas, I again suggest a log-spiral, where you 
get both polarizations at once.

 

With any of these “hurry up” schemes, if you see a susceptibility, you will 
need to step back and use the traditional technique.

 

-- 

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261

 

From: Patrick 
Reply-To: Patrick 
Date: Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:14 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

yes, agree.

two tones and single antenna is promoted by AR.  So what is next level 
improvement?

 

Can we speed tests even more with two antennas, simultaneous V ?

 

Wondering if 2x antenna plus 2x tone will cut test time by 4x.   

 

On Fri, May 6, 2022, 09:08 Ken Javor  wrote:


The AR approach of multiple frequencies at the same time from a single antenna 
seems simpler.

 

-- 

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261

 

From: Patrick 
Reply-To: Patrick 
Date: Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:01 AM
To: 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

Hi Bill and everyone-

I am grateful for the insights.  

 

I have two goals- first is two antennas for radiated emissions.  

Second goal is dual antenna for radiated susceptibility(i.e. immunity ).

The insights on emissions are a great start.  

 

Has anyone attempted dual antennas for susceptibility/immunity?

 

-Patrick.

 

On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 10:52 PM Bill Owsley 
<00f5a03f18eb-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:


No clue as to what your thinking is about using multiple antennas in testing.
We used 4 masts, high band and low band at 3 m and 10 m..
NSA came out fine.  Been doing it for about 3 or more decades.
If ya gots the money, spend it on more hardware.
One radiated run in about 30 minutes cover high and low band at 3m and 10m.
All interesting freq noted for followup.


ps. Even tho' all document the azimuth and altitude, no one uses it later.
Useless info to fill out.  Every test setup is different, even using the same 
equipment.

 

 

 

On Monday, May 2, 2022, 06:10:34 PM EDT, David Schaefer 
<12867effceb4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: 

 

 

Prescans you could do vertical and horizontal at the same time, but the problem 
with final data is you need to maximize. The worst turntable angle for V and H 
is probably different, so you can’t maximize the antenna height at the same 
time. 

 

There is also the issue of NSA – was NSA data taken with the 2nd antenna and 
mast in the chamber? And with them both moving how will that affect results?

 

I heard the Keysight team in California was planning on taking some data to 
investigate, but that was pre-covid so it probably got put on the back burner. 

 

 

 

| 
| 
| 

 |

 |

 |
| 
| 
| 
| 
| 
| 
| 
| 
David Schaefer
 |

 |

 |

 |

 |
| 
| 
Technical Manager
 |

 |
| 
| 
| 
Element Materials Technology
 |

 |

 |
| 
| 
9349 W Broadway Ave
 |

 |
| 
| 
| 
Brooklyn Park
 |

 | 
| 
, 
 |

 | 
| 
| 
MN
 |

 |

 | 
| 
55445
 |

 | 
| 
, 
 |

 | 
| 
United States
 |

 |

 |

 |
| 
| 
| 
| 
| 
O +1 612 638 5136
 |

 |

 | 
| 
ext. 10461
 |

 |

 |
| 
| 
david.schae...@element.com
 |

 |
| 
| 
www.element.com
 |

 |

 |
| 
| 
| 
| 

 |

 | 
| 

 |

 | 

 |

 |

 |

 |

 |


From: Paasche, Dieter [mailto:dieter.paas...@christiedigital.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 3:59 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

CAUTION:This email originated from outside of Element Materials Technology. DO 
NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know 
the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if you are in any doubt 
about this email.

Hi, 

 

I have seen that too at HP in Sacramento, CA. One antenna was in Vertical 
polarization and the other in Vertical. In my personal opinion, it is Ok for 
pre-scan, but I think it is complicated for the final scan. I think you still 
have to test each frequency and polarization one by one. 

 

Sincerely, 

 

Dieter Paasche

 

This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is confidenti

Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

2022-05-06 Thread Bill Owsley

 Multi-path emissions from the same source !
Weird stuff !
On Friday, May 6, 2022, 09:49:31 PM EDT, Brent DeWitt 
 wrote:  
 
  Brings back memories!  MANY moons ago, I ran an OATS in the foothills of 
Colorado with lots of radio and TV ambients.  Thought I'd give the two antenna 
cancellation thing a quick experiment.  I had one antenna on out 10 meter test 
mast and put a second one on the edge of our 3 meter diameter turntable with a 
preamp and attenuator on one of them.  With that arrangement, I could adjust 
both the relative amplitude and phase of FM and TV signals over a pretty good 
range, to get the best null.  After a day or so of playing around, I found that 
I could poke a 15-20 dB hole in some signals, but barely change some others.  
After scratching my head for a while, I realized that the ones I could cancel 
were almost line-of-sight from Cheyenne, and the ones I couldn't were from 
Denver.  The light went on.  I was in a narrow mountain canyon, so the signals 
from Denver had so much multi-path reflection, that whatever one you canceled 
stll left three or four others with different phase relationship.  With that 
realization, I went down to Lyons and had a beer.
 
 On 5/6/2022 1:57 AM, Bill Owsley wrote:
  
 
 Tried the dual antennas to subtract out the ambients, several times since the 
explanation was good.
 About 20 years ago.  Unsat !!!
 
 
  
  On Monday, May 2, 2022, 02:23:26 PM EDT, Ken Javor 
 wrote:  
  
  
Likely a totally different application than yours, but a long time ago on OATS 
measurements, there was development of a two-antenna test where one was for the 
actual measurement, but the other was pointed away to pick up the ambient, and 
the idea was to subtract the ambient out, and leave only the EUT emissions.
 
  
 
It was controversial.
 
  
 
MIL-STD-826 (1964 – 1967) had radiated emission antenna set-up drawings showing 
all antennas deployed simultaneously. In the days when each antenna had its own 
receiver, if you had enough techs that could speed up the test significantly. 
It should be noted that was unique to MIL-STD-826 and it did not survive into 
MIL-STD-461.
 
  
 
I’m thinking in your specific application, the antennas should be separated by 
some distance, so that they don’t affect each other. What that separation needs 
to be will depend on the desired uncertainty in the measurement.
 
  
  
-- 
  
Ken Javor
   
(256) 650-5261
 
  
   
From: Patrick 
 Reply-To: Patrick 
 Date: Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:00 PM
 To: 
 Subject: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?
   
  

Hi All - 
   
  
   
I'm wondering if there is any academic or practical literature on the use of 
two antennas during an emissions test.  For example, research or experiments on 
the use of two DRH's above 1.0 GHz, side-by-side, one vertical, the other 
horizontal.
   
  
   
Have any researchers looked at this?   
   
Are there any experimental studies? 
   
  
   
Thank you.
   
-Patrick
   
-

 
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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
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 Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
 List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 
 
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Attachments are not

Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

2022-05-06 Thread Brent DeWitt

Brings back memories!  MANY moons ago, I ran an OATS in the foothills of 
Colorado with lots of radio and TV ambients.  Thought I'd give the two 
antenna cancellation thing a quick experiment.  I had one antenna on out 
10 meter test mast and put a second one on the edge of our 3 meter 
diameter turntable with a preamp and attenuator on one of them.  With 
that arrangement, I could adjust both the relative amplitude and phase 
of FM and TV signals over a pretty good range, to get the best null.  
After a day or so of playing around, I found that I could poke a 15-20 
dB hole in some signals, but barely change some others.  After 
scratching my head for a while, I realized that the ones I could cancel 
were almost line-of-sight from Cheyenne, and the ones I couldn't were 
from Denver.  The light went on.  I was in a narrow mountain canyon, so 
the signals from Denver had so much multi-path reflection, that whatever 
one you canceled stll left three or four others with different phase 
relationship.  With that realization, I went down to Lyons and had a beer.


On 5/6/2022 1:57 AM, Bill Owsley wrote:
Tried the dual antennas to subtract out the ambients, several times 
since the explanation was good.

About 20 years ago.  Unsat !!!



On Monday, May 2, 2022, 02:23:26 PM EDT, Ken Javor 
 wrote:



Likely a totally different application than yours, but a long time ago 
on OATS measurements, there was development of a two-antenna test 
where one was for the actual measurement, but the other was pointed 
away to pick up the ambient, and the idea was to subtract the ambient 
out, and leave only the EUT emissions.


It was controversial.

MIL-STD-826 (1964 – 1967) had radiated emission antenna set-up 
drawings showing all antennas deployed simultaneously. In the days 
when each antenna had its own receiver, if you had enough techs that 
could speed up the test significantly. It should be noted that was 
unique to MIL-STD-826 and it did not survive into MIL-STD-461.


I’m thinking in your specific application, the antennas should be 
separated by some distance, so that they don’t affect each other. What 
that separation needs to be will depend on the desired uncertainty in 
the measurement.


--

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261

*From: *Patrick 
*Reply-To: *Patrick 
*Date: *Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:00 PM
*To: *
*Subject: *[PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

Hi All -

I'm wondering if there is any academic or practical literature on the 
use of two antennas during an emissions test.  For example, research 
or experiments on the use of two DRH's above 1.0 GHz, side-by-side, 
one vertical, the other horizontal.


Have any researchers looked at this?

Are there any experimental studies?

Thank you.

-Patrick

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your 
e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities 
site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for 
graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.


Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe) 

List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher 
David Heald 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your 
e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities 
site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for 
graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.


Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe) 

List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

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Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher 
David Heald 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your 
e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html


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site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for 
graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.


Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/

Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

2022-05-06 Thread Ken Javor

For RE, the single biggest improvement for schedule is to use a time domain or 
FFT EMI receiver.  Basically that is 1 second for each multi-MHz sweep.  If 
your platform has a limited number of microwave uplinks, the entire RE test 
will take a few seconds. A log-spiral eliminates the need for dual polarization 
measurements, but the time savings will all be in the changeover, not the 
actual reduced number of sweeps.

 

Also, no RE test outside receiver bands. At low frequencies (10/150 kHz to say 
200 MHz) control cable common mode currents to control crosstalk. This is 
paired with a BCI-type requirement like a tailored CS114.  Cables that meet the 
BCE (bulk cable emissions) and BCI requirement may be laid side-by-side with no 
concern for separation.

 

RS is where time savings need to be found.  No RS outside of transmitter bands. 
 You need to account for off-platform transmitters if your platform is 
operational when such might be in operation.  But only those 
equipments/subsystems that would be active at those times.  

 

Log-spirals are a must in this situation.  They will cut test time in half.  
And that is significant for RS.  They are available 100/200 MHz to 10 GHz, 
which covers most needs.  With any of today’s broadband instantaneous bandwidth 
amplifiers, as many signal generators may be combined as desired to further 
reduce test time.  The frequencies would have to be close together, because you 
need the field calibration device response as well as the transmit antenna gain 
to be flat over the range of simultaneously transmitted frequencies.  Depending 
on the item tested, if the response is immediate (don’t need a 1 or 3 second 
dwell time) you could consider wideband frequency modulation using a single 
signal generator to accomplish the same thing. If the FM deviation were say 1%, 
you could step in 1% steps, instead of the much smaller ones typically 
prescribed at microwave frequencies.

 

 

-- 

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261

From: Patrick 
Reply-To: Patrick 
Date: Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:50 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

Ken - once again, I agree with you.

 

I don't see any path where dual antenna or dual tone can be used for 
thresholding and debug

Finding any susceptibility moves a test to "normal" mode.

 

My motivation comes from the last RS test I was in... (really, every RS test 
I've ever been in!)

It was 8 to 10 hours of boredom with one or two minutes of excitement.

 

As an engineer, I can't help but ask, how can I make this more efficient?

Or... 

Why spend 10 hours in test, when 2.5 hours might provide the same result?

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 9:20 AM Ken Javor  wrote:

If the signal generators are inexpensive enough, more signals is more 
efficient. Rather than two antennas, I again suggest a log-spiral, where you 
get both polarizations at once.

 

With any of these “hurry up” schemes, if you see a susceptibility, you will 
need to step back and use the traditional technique.

 

-- 

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261

 

From: Patrick 
Reply-To: Patrick 
Date: Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:14 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

yes, agree.

two tones and single antenna is promoted by AR.  So what is next level 
improvement?

 

Can we speed tests even more with two antennas, simultaneous V ?

 

Wondering if 2x antenna plus 2x tone will cut test time by 4x.   

 

On Fri, May 6, 2022, 09:08 Ken Javor  wrote:

The AR approach of multiple frequencies at the same time from a single antenna 
seems simpler.

 

-- 

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261

 

From: Patrick 
Reply-To: Patrick 
Date: Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:01 AM
To: 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

Hi Bill and everyone-

I am grateful for the insights.  

 

I have two goals- first is two antennas for radiated emissions.  

Second goal is dual antenna for radiated susceptibility(i.e. immunity ).

The insights on emissions are a great start.  

 

Has anyone attempted dual antennas for susceptibility/immunity?

 

-Patrick.

 

On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 10:52 PM Bill Owsley 
<00f5a03f18eb-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:

No clue as to what your thinking is about using multiple antennas in testing.
We used 4 masts, high band and low band at 3 m and 10 m..
NSA came out fine.  Been doing it for about 3 or more decades.
If ya gots the money, spend it on more hardware.
One radiated run in about 30 minutes cover high and low band at 3m and 10m.
All interesting freq noted for followup.


ps. Even tho' all document the azimuth and altitude, no one uses it later.
Useless info to fill out.  Every test setup is different, even using the same 
equipment.

 

 

 

On Monday, May 2, 2022, 06:10:34 PM EDT, David Schaefer 
<12867effceb4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: 

 

 

Prescans you could do vertical and horizontal at the same time, but the problem 
with

Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

2022-05-06 Thread Patrick

Ken - once again, I agree with you.

I don't see any path where dual antenna or dual tone can be used for
thresholding and debug
Finding any susceptibility moves a test to "normal" mode.

My motivation comes from the last RS test I was in... (really, every RS
test I've ever been in!)
It was 8 to 10 hours of boredom with one or two minutes of excitement.

As an engineer, I can't help but ask, how can I make this more efficient?
Or...
Why spend 10 hours in test, when 2.5 hours might provide the same result?






On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 9:20 AM Ken Javor 
wrote:

> If the signal generators are inexpensive enough, more signals is more
> efficient. Rather than two antennas, I again suggest a log-spiral, where
> you get both polarizations at once.
>
>
>
> With any of these “hurry up” schemes, if you see a susceptibility, you
> will need to step back and use the traditional technique.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Ken Javor
>
> (256) 650-5261
>
>
>
> *From: *Patrick 
> *Reply-To: *Patrick 
> *Date: *Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:14 PM
> *To: *
> *Subject: *Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?
>
>
>
> yes, agree.
>
> two tones and single antenna is promoted by AR.  So what is next level
> improvement?
>
>
>
> Can we speed tests even more with two antennas, simultaneous V ?
>
>
>
> Wondering if 2x antenna plus 2x tone will cut test time by 4x.
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 6, 2022, 09:08 Ken Javor  wrote:
>
> The AR approach of multiple frequencies at the same time from a single
> antenna seems simpler.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Ken Javor
>
> (256) 650-5261
>
>
>
> *From: *Patrick 
> *Reply-To: *Patrick 
> *Date: *Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:01 AM
> *To: *
> *Subject: *Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?
>
>
>
> Hi Bill and everyone-
>
> I am grateful for the insights.
>
>
>
> I have two goals- first is two antennas for radiated emissions.
>
> Second goal is dual antenna for radiated susceptibility(i.e. immunity ).
>
> The insights on emissions are a great start.
>
>
>
> Has anyone attempted dual antennas for susceptibility/immunity?
>
>
>
> -Patrick.
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 10:52 PM Bill Owsley <
> 00f5a03f18eb-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:
>
> No clue as to what your thinking is about using multiple antennas in
> testing.
> We used 4 masts, high band and low band at 3 m and 10 m..
> NSA came out fine.  Been doing it for about 3 or more decades.
> If ya gots the money, spend it on more hardware.
> One radiated run in about 30 minutes cover high and low band at 3m and 10m.
> All interesting freq noted for followup.
>
>
> ps. Even tho' all document the azimuth and altitude, no one uses it later.
> Useless info to fill out.  Every test setup is different, even using the
> same equipment.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, May 2, 2022, 06:10:34 PM EDT, David Schaefer <
> 12867effceb4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Prescans you could do vertical and horizontal at the same time, but the
> problem with final data is you need to maximize. The worst turntable angle
> for V and H is probably different, so you can’t maximize the antenna height
> at the same time.
>
>
>
> There is also the issue of NSA – was NSA data taken with the 2nd antenna
> and mast in the chamber? And with them both moving how will that affect
> results?
>
>
>
> I heard the Keysight team in California was planning on taking some data
> to investigate, but that was pre-covid so it probably got put on the back
> burner.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [image: cid:18099e0080c99d407143]
>
> *David Schaefer***
>
> Technical Manager
>
> Element Materials Technology
>
> 9349 W Broadway Ave
>
> Brooklyn Park
>
> ,
>
> MN
>
> 55445
>
> ,
>
> United States
>
> O *+1 612 638 5136*
>
> ext. 10461
>
> *david.schae...@element.com* 
>
> www.element.com
>
> [image: cid:18099e0080ce3bbe0cd4]
> <https://www.linkedin.com/organization-guest/company/element-materials-technology?challengeId=AQFf9AemZ4SobwAAAXOQwivOsnkHiTt2ByoCkOxVQjOGOjRlivicVgYlN1dz5QXjId9bpa0keWzfVxhl8KPj78uD6-S6nfqRsg=e49e0dc0-96a3-2516-27fa-ee2e8c42b177>
>
> [image: cid:18099e0080cd97345b81] <https://twitter.com/ElementTesting/>
>
> [image: cid:18099e0080c8926e77f2]
> <https://elementmaterials.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_3xQqm84s6IydI5D>
>
> *From:* Paasche, Dieter [mailto:dieter.paas...@christiedigital.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, May 2, 2022 3:59 PM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during R

Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

2022-05-06 Thread Ken Javor

If the signal generators are inexpensive enough, more signals is more 
efficient. Rather than two antennas, I again suggest a log-spiral, where you 
get both polarizations at once.

 

With any of these “hurry up” schemes, if you see a susceptibility, you will 
need to step back and use the traditional technique.

 

-- 

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261

 

From: Patrick 
Reply-To: Patrick 
Date: Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:14 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

yes, agree.

two tones and single antenna is promoted by AR.  So what is next level 
improvement?

 

Can we speed tests even more with two antennas, simultaneous V ?

 

Wondering if 2x antenna plus 2x tone will cut test time by 4x.   

 

On Fri, May 6, 2022, 09:08 Ken Javor  wrote:

The AR approach of multiple frequencies at the same time from a single antenna 
seems simpler.

 

-- 

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261

 

From: Patrick 
Reply-To: Patrick 
Date: Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:01 AM
To: 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

Hi Bill and everyone-

I am grateful for the insights.  

 

I have two goals- first is two antennas for radiated emissions.  

Second goal is dual antenna for radiated susceptibility(i.e. immunity ).

The insights on emissions are a great start.  

 

Has anyone attempted dual antennas for susceptibility/immunity?

 

-Patrick.

 

On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 10:52 PM Bill Owsley 
<00f5a03f18eb-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:

No clue as to what your thinking is about using multiple antennas in testing.
We used 4 masts, high band and low band at 3 m and 10 m..
NSA came out fine.  Been doing it for about 3 or more decades.
If ya gots the money, spend it on more hardware.
One radiated run in about 30 minutes cover high and low band at 3m and 10m.
All interesting freq noted for followup.


ps. Even tho' all document the azimuth and altitude, no one uses it later.
Useless info to fill out.  Every test setup is different, even using the same 
equipment.

 

 

 

On Monday, May 2, 2022, 06:10:34 PM EDT, David Schaefer 
<12867effceb4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: 

 

 

Prescans you could do vertical and horizontal at the same time, but the problem 
with final data is you need to maximize. The worst turntable angle for V and H 
is probably different, so you can’t maximize the antenna height at the same 
time. 

 

There is also the issue of NSA – was NSA data taken with the 2nd antenna and 
mast in the chamber? And with them both moving how will that affect results?

 

I heard the Keysight team in California was planning on taking some data to 
investigate, but that was pre-covid so it probably got put on the back burner. 

 

 

 

David Schaefer
Technical Manager
Element Materials Technology
9349 W Broadway Ave
Brooklyn Park
, 
MN
55445
, 
United States
O +1 612 638 5136
ext. 10461
david.schae...@element.com
www.element.com
From: Paasche, Dieter [mailto:dieter.paas...@christiedigital.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 3:59 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

CAUTION:This email originated from outside of Element Materials Technology. DO 
NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know 
the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if you are in any doubt 
about this email.

Hi, 

 

I have seen that too at HP in Sacramento, CA. One antenna was in Vertical 
polarization and the other in Vertical. In my personal opinion, it is Ok for 
pre-scan, but I think it is complicated for the final scan. I think you still 
have to test each frequency and polarization one by one. 

 

Sincerely, 

 

Dieter Paasche

 

This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is confidential.  Any 
unauthorized use, distribution or disclosure is prohibited.  If you have 
received this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail 
or telephone and delete it and any attachments from your computer system and 
records.

 

From: Manny Barron  
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2022 4:46 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

CAUTION:This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.

 

Back around 1998 when I worked for Tandem Computers (purchased by Compaq in 
1998, then purchased by HP in 2001), I visited the HP EMC Lab in Washington 
state (I went to see their 10m chamber since we were thinking of getting a 2nd 
10m chamber, which we did). 

 

Well they used two antennas connected to two separate receivers for their RE 
tests. Can't remember if it was horizontal and vertical OR if it was two 
frequency ranges (30-300MHz and 300-1000MHz), but it was definitely two 
antennas and two receivers.  At that time they were also experimenting with 4 
antennas but I think still 2 receivers, but don't know if that was actually 
implemented

Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

2022-05-06 Thread Patrick

yes, agree.
two tones and single antenna is promoted by AR.  So what is next level
improvement?

Can we speed tests even more with two antennas, simultaneous V ?

Wondering if 2x antenna plus 2x tone will cut test time by 4x.

On Fri, May 6, 2022, 09:08 Ken Javor  wrote:

> The AR approach of multiple frequencies at the same time from a single
> antenna seems simpler.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Ken Javor
>
> (256) 650-5261
>
>
>
> *From: *Patrick 
> *Reply-To: *Patrick 
> *Date: *Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:01 AM
> *To: *
> *Subject: *Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?
>
>
>
> Hi Bill and everyone-
>
> I am grateful for the insights.
>
>
>
> I have two goals- first is two antennas for radiated emissions.
>
> Second goal is dual antenna for radiated susceptibility(i.e. immunity ).
>
> The insights on emissions are a great start.
>
>
>
> Has anyone attempted dual antennas for susceptibility/immunity?
>
>
>
> -Patrick.
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 10:52 PM Bill Owsley <
> 00f5a03f18eb-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:
>
> No clue as to what your thinking is about using multiple antennas in
> testing.
> We used 4 masts, high band and low band at 3 m and 10 m..
> NSA came out fine.  Been doing it for about 3 or more decades.
> If ya gots the money, spend it on more hardware.
> One radiated run in about 30 minutes cover high and low band at 3m and 10m.
> All interesting freq noted for followup.
>
>
> ps. Even tho' all document the azimuth and altitude, no one uses it later.
> Useless info to fill out.  Every test setup is different, even using the
> same equipment.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, May 2, 2022, 06:10:34 PM EDT, David Schaefer <
> 12867effceb4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Prescans you could do vertical and horizontal at the same time, but the
> problem with final data is you need to maximize. The worst turntable angle
> for V and H is probably different, so you can’t maximize the antenna height
> at the same time.
>
>
>
> There is also the issue of NSA – was NSA data taken with the 2nd antenna
> and mast in the chamber? And with them both moving how will that affect
> results?
>
>
>
> I heard the Keysight team in California was planning on taking some data
> to investigate, but that was pre-covid so it probably got put on the back
> burner.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [image: cid:18099e0080c99d407143]
>
> *David Schaefer***
>
> Technical Manager
>
> Element Materials Technology
>
> 9349 W Broadway Ave
>
> Brooklyn Park
>
> ,
>
> MN
>
> 55445
>
> ,
>
> United States
>
> O *+1 612 638 5136*
>
> ext. 10461
>
> *david.schae...@element.com* 
>
> www.element.com
>
> [image: cid:18099e0080ce3bbe0cd4]
> <https://www.linkedin.com/organization-guest/company/element-materials-technology?challengeId=AQFf9AemZ4SobwAAAXOQwivOsnkHiTt2ByoCkOxVQjOGOjRlivicVgYlN1dz5QXjId9bpa0keWzfVxhl8KPj78uD6-S6nfqRsg=e49e0dc0-96a3-2516-27fa-ee2e8c42b177>
>
> [image: cid:18099e0080cd97345b81] <https://twitter.com/ElementTesting/>
>
> [image: cid:18099e0080c8926e77f2]
> <https://elementmaterials.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_3xQqm84s6IydI5D>
>
> *From:* Paasche, Dieter [mailto:dieter.paas...@christiedigital.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, May 2, 2022 3:59 PM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?
>
>
>
> *CAUTION:*This email originated from outside of Element Materials
> Technology. *DO NOT* click links or open attachments unless you recognize
> the sender and know the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if
> you are in any doubt about this email.
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I have seen that too at HP in Sacramento, CA. One antenna was in Vertical
> polarization and the other in Vertical. In my personal opinion, it is Ok
> for pre-scan, but I think it is complicated for the final scan. I think you
> still have to test each frequency and polarization one by one.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> Dieter Paasche
>
>
>
> This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is confidential.  Any
> unauthorized use, distribution or disclosure is prohibited.  If you have
> received this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender by reply
> e-mail or telephone and delete it and any attachments from your computer
> system and records.
>
>
>
> *From:* Manny Barron 
> *Sent:* Monday, May 02, 2022 4:46 PM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?
>
>
>
> *CAUTION:*This e

Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

2022-05-06 Thread Ken Javor

The AR approach of multiple frequencies at the same time from a single antenna 
seems simpler.

 

-- 

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261

 

From: Patrick 
Reply-To: Patrick 
Date: Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:01 AM
To: 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

Hi Bill and everyone-

I am grateful for the insights.  

 

I have two goals- first is two antennas for radiated emissions.  

Second goal is dual antenna for radiated susceptibility(i.e. immunity ).

The insights on emissions are a great start.  

 

Has anyone attempted dual antennas for susceptibility/immunity?

 

-Patrick.

 

On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 10:52 PM Bill Owsley 
<00f5a03f18eb-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:

No clue as to what your thinking is about using multiple antennas in testing.
We used 4 masts, high band and low band at 3 m and 10 m..
NSA came out fine.  Been doing it for about 3 or more decades.
If ya gots the money, spend it on more hardware.
One radiated run in about 30 minutes cover high and low band at 3m and 10m.
All interesting freq noted for followup.


ps. Even tho' all document the azimuth and altitude, no one uses it later.
Useless info to fill out.  Every test setup is different, even using the same 
equipment.

 

 

 

On Monday, May 2, 2022, 06:10:34 PM EDT, David Schaefer 
<12867effceb4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: 

 

 

Prescans you could do vertical and horizontal at the same time, but the problem 
with final data is you need to maximize. The worst turntable angle for V and H 
is probably different, so you can’t maximize the antenna height at the same 
time. 

 

There is also the issue of NSA – was NSA data taken with the 2nd antenna and 
mast in the chamber? And with them both moving how will that affect results?

 

I heard the Keysight team in California was planning on taking some data to 
investigate, but that was pre-covid so it probably got put on the back burner. 

 

 

 

David Schaefer
Technical Manager
Element Materials Technology
9349 W Broadway Ave
Brooklyn Park
, 
MN
55445
, 
United States
O +1 612 638 5136
ext. 10461
david.schae...@element.com
www.element.com
From: Paasche, Dieter [mailto:dieter.paas...@christiedigital.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 3:59 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

CAUTION:This email originated from outside of Element Materials Technology. DO 
NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know 
the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if you are in any doubt 
about this email.

Hi, 

 

I have seen that too at HP in Sacramento, CA. One antenna was in Vertical 
polarization and the other in Vertical. In my personal opinion, it is Ok for 
pre-scan, but I think it is complicated for the final scan. I think you still 
have to test each frequency and polarization one by one. 

 

Sincerely, 

 

Dieter Paasche

 

This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is confidential.  Any 
unauthorized use, distribution or disclosure is prohibited.  If you have 
received this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail 
or telephone and delete it and any attachments from your computer system and 
records.

 

From: Manny Barron  
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2022 4:46 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

CAUTION:This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.

 

Back around 1998 when I worked for Tandem Computers (purchased by Compaq in 
1998, then purchased by HP in 2001), I visited the HP EMC Lab in Washington 
state (I went to see their 10m chamber since we were thinking of getting a 2nd 
10m chamber, which we did). 

 

Well they used two antennas connected to two separate receivers for their RE 
tests. Can't remember if it was horizontal and vertical OR if it was two 
frequency ranges (30-300MHz and 300-1000MHz), but it was definitely two 
antennas and two receivers.  At that time they were also experimenting with 4 
antennas but I think still 2 receivers, but don't know if that was actually 
implemented. They wrote their own custom test software to handle the multiple 
antenna / receiver combinations.  The guy who ran that HP EMC test lab was Bob 
Dockey who later went to Philips Medical, if you can find him maybe he can 
elaborate on their RE test system of the time.

 

A year later we (now Compaq) purchased a new 10m chamber (now we had two), so I 
was thinking about the two antenna RE test method as well.  But then in 2002 
(now HP), HP shut down two full EMC labs with three 10m chambers (all within 1 
mi area in Cupertino, CA), and laid off almost all EMC personnel, something 
about too many labs and equipment after the corporate merger.  They ended up 
taking equipment to be tested to their Roseville, CA EMC test lab, about 100 
miles north.

 

So

Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

2022-05-06 Thread Patrick

Hi Bill and everyone-
I am grateful for the insights.

I have two goals- first is two antennas for radiated emissions.
Second goal is dual antenna for radiated susceptibility(i.e. immunity ).
The insights on emissions are a great start.

Has anyone attempted dual antennas for susceptibility/immunity?

-Patrick.

On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 10:52 PM Bill Owsley <
00f5a03f18eb-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:

> No clue as to what your thinking is about using multiple antennas in
> testing.
> We used 4 masts, high band and low band at 3 m and 10 m..
> NSA came out fine.  Been doing it for about 3 or more decades.
> If ya gots the money, spend it on more hardware.
> One radiated run in about 30 minutes cover high and low band at 3m and 10m.
> All interesting freq noted for followup.
>
> ps. Even tho' all document the azimuth and altitude, no one uses it later.
> Useless info to fill out.  Every test setup is different, even using the
> same equipment.
>
>
>
> On Monday, May 2, 2022, 06:10:34 PM EDT, David Schaefer <
> 12867effceb4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:
>
>
> Prescans you could do vertical and horizontal at the same time, but the
> problem with final data is you need to maximize. The worst turntable angle
> for V and H is probably different, so you can’t maximize the antenna height
> at the same time.
>
>
>
> There is also the issue of NSA – was NSA data taken with the 2nd antenna
> and mast in the chamber? And with them both moving how will that affect
> results?
>
>
>
> I heard the Keysight team in California was planning on taking some data
> to investigate, but that was pre-covid so it probably got put on the back
> burner.
>
>
>
> <https://bit.ly/3gt02wc>
>
>
> David Schaefer
> Technical Manager
> Element Materials Technology
> 9349 W Broadway Ave
> Brooklyn Park
> ,
> MN
> 55445
> ,
> United States
> O *+1 612 638 5136*
> ext. 10461
> *david.schae...@element.com* 
> www.element.com
>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/organization-guest/company/element-materials-technology?challengeId=AQFf9AemZ4SobwAAAXOQwivOsnkHiTt2ByoCkOxVQjOGOjRlivicVgYlN1dz5QXjId9bpa0keWzfVxhl8KPj78uD6-S6nfqRsg=e49e0dc0-96a3-2516-27fa-ee2e8c42b177>
> <https://twitter.com/ElementTesting/>
> <https://elementmaterials.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_3xQqm84s6IydI5D>
>
> *From:* Paasche, Dieter [mailto:dieter.paas...@christiedigital.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, May 2, 2022 3:59 PM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?
>
>
>
> *CAUTION:*This email originated from outside of Element Materials
> Technology. *DO NOT* click links or open attachments unless you recognize
> the sender and know the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if
> you are in any doubt about this email.
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I have seen that too at HP in Sacramento, CA. One antenna was in Vertical
> polarization and the other in Vertical. In my personal opinion, it is Ok
> for pre-scan, but I think it is complicated for the final scan. I think you
> still have to test each frequency and polarization one by one.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> Dieter Paasche
>
>
>
> This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is confidential.  Any
> unauthorized use, distribution or disclosure is prohibited.  If you have
> received this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender by reply
> e-mail or telephone and delete it and any attachments from your computer
> system and records.
>
>
>
> *From:* Manny Barron 
> *Sent:* Monday, May 02, 2022 4:46 PM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?
>
>
>
> *CAUTION:*This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
> the content is safe.
>
>
>
> Back around 1998 when I worked for Tandem Computers (purchased by Compaq
> in 1998, then purchased by HP in 2001), I visited the HP EMC Lab in
> Washington state (I went to see their 10m chamber since we were thinking
> of getting a 2nd 10m chamber, which we did).
>
>
>
> Well they used two antennas connected to two separate receivers for their
> RE tests. Can't remember if it was horizontal and vertical OR if it was two
> frequency ranges (30-300MHz and 300-1000MHz), but it was definitely two
> antennas and two receivers.  At that time they were also experimenting with
> 4 antennas but I think still 2 receivers, but don't know if that was
> actually implemented. They wrote their own custom test software to handle
> the multiple antenna / receiver combinations.  The guy who ran t

Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

2022-05-05 Thread Bill Owsley

 Tried the dual antennas to subtract out the ambients, several times since the 
explanation was good.
About 20 years ago.  Unsat !!!



On Monday, May 2, 2022, 02:23:26 PM EDT, Ken Javor 
 wrote:  
 
 
Likely a totally different application than yours, but a long time ago on OATS 
measurements, there was development of a two-antenna test where one was for the 
actual measurement, but the other was pointed away to pick up the ambient, and 
the idea was to subtract the ambient out, and leave only the EUT emissions.

  

It was controversial.

  

MIL-STD-826 (1964 – 1967) had radiated emission antenna set-up drawings showing 
all antennas deployed simultaneously. In the days when each antenna had its own 
receiver, if you had enough techs that could speed up the test significantly. 
It should be noted that was unique to MIL-STD-826 and it did not survive into 
MIL-STD-461.

  

I’m thinking in your specific application, the antennas should be separated by 
some distance, so that they don’t affect each other. What that separation needs 
to be will depend on the desired uncertainty in the measurement.

  

-- 

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261

  

From: Patrick 
Reply-To: Patrick 
Date: Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:00 PM
To: 
Subject: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

  

Hi All - 

  

I'm wondering if there is any academic or practical literature on the use of 
two antennas during an emissions test.  For example, research or experiments on 
the use of two DRH's above 1.0 GHz, side-by-side, one vertical, the other 
horizontal.

  

Have any researchers looked at this?   

Are there any experimental studies? 

  

Thank you.

-Patrick

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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For policy questions, send mail to:
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-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web 
at:http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher 
David Heald 
  

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald:

Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

2022-05-05 Thread Bill Owsley

 No clue as to what your thinking is about using multiple antennas in testing.
We used 4 masts, high band and low band at 3 m and 10 m..
NSA came out fine.  Been doing it for about 3 or more decades.
If ya gots the money, spend it on more hardware.
One radiated run in about 30 minutes cover high and low band at 3m and 10m.
All interesting freq noted for followup.
ps. Even tho' all document the azimuth and altitude, no one uses it later.
Useless info to fill out.  Every test setup is different, even using the same 
equipment.


On Monday, May 2, 2022, 06:10:34 PM EDT, David Schaefer 
<12867effceb4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:  
 
 
Prescans you could do vertical and horizontal at the same time, but the problem 
with final data is you need to maximize. The worst turntable angle for V and H 
is probably different, so you can’t maximize the antenna height at the same 
time. 
 
  
 
There is also the issue of NSA – was NSA data taken with the 2nd antenna and 
mast in the chamber? And with them both moving how will that affect results?
 
  
 
I heard the Keysight team in California was planning on taking some data to 
investigate, but that was pre-covid so it probably got put on the back burner.
 
  
 


 
 
  
 
| 
| 
|  |

 |

 |
| 
| 
| 
| 
| 
| 
| 
| David Schaefer |

 |

 |

 |

 |
| 
| Technical Manager |

 |
| 
| 
| Element Materials Technology |

 |

 |
| 
| 9349 W Broadway Ave |

 |
| 
| 
| Brooklyn Park |

 | 
| ,  |

 | 
| 
| MN |

 |

 | 
| 55445 |

 | 
| ,  |

 | 
| United States |

 |

 |

 |
| 
| 
| 
| 
| O +1 612 638 5136 |

 |

 | 
| ext. 10461 |

 |

 |
| 
| david.schae...@element.com |

 |
| 
| www.element.com |

 |

 |
| 
| 
| 
|  |

 | 
|  |

 |  |

 |

 |

 |

 |


From: Paasche, Dieter [mailto:dieter.paas...@christiedigital.com]
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 3:59 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?
 
  
 
CAUTION:This email originated from outside of Element Materials Technology. DO 
NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know 
the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if you are in any doubt 
about this email.
 
Hi,
 
  
 
I have seen that too at HP in Sacramento, CA. One antenna was in Vertical 
polarization and the other in Vertical. In my personal opinion, it is Ok for 
pre-scan, but I think it is complicated for the final scan. I think you still 
have to test each frequency and polarization one by one.
 
  
 
Sincerely,
 
  
 
Dieter Paasche
 
  
 
This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is confidential.  Any 
unauthorized use, distribution or disclosure is prohibited.  If you have 
received this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail 
or telephone and delete it and any attachments from your computer system and 
records.
 
  
 
From: Manny Barron 
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2022 4:46 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?
 
  
 
|  | 
CAUTION:This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.
  |


  
 
Back around 1998 when I worked for Tandem Computers (purchased by Compaq in 
1998, then purchased by HP in 2001), I visited the HP EMC Lab in Washington 
state (I went to see their 10m chamber since we were thinking of getting a 2nd 
10m chamber, which we did). 
 
  
 
Well they used two antennas connected to two separate receivers for their RE 
tests. Can't remember if it was horizontal and vertical OR if it was two 
frequency ranges (30-300MHz and 300-1000MHz), but it was definitely two 
antennas and two receivers.  At that time they were also experimenting with 4 
antennas but I think still 2 receivers, but don't know if that was actually 
implemented. They wrote their own custom test software to handle the multiple 
antenna / receiver combinations.  The guy who ran that HP EMC test lab was Bob 
Dockey who later went to Philips Medical, if you can find him maybe he can 
elaborate on their RE test system of the time.
 
  
 
A year later we (now Compaq) purchased a new 10m chamber (now we had two), so I 
was thinking about the two antenna RE test method as well.  But then in 2002 
(now HP), HP shut down two full EMC labs with three 10m chambers (all within 1 
mi area in Cupertino, CA), and laid off almost all EMC personnel, something 
about too many labs and equipment after the corporate merger.  They ended up 
taking equipment to be tested to their Roseville, CA EMC test lab, about 100 
miles north.
 
  
 
So I never got a chance to research and implement the 2 antenna RE test system. 
Had all the equipment,  but it was too late.
 
  
 
Manny Barron
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 11:00 AM Patrick  wrote:
 

Hi All - 
 
  
 
I'm wondering if there is any academic or practical literature on the use of 
two antennas during an emissions test.  For example, research or exper

Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

2022-05-02 Thread David Schaefer

Prescans you could do vertical and horizontal at the same time, but the problem 
with final data is you need to maximize. The worst turntable angle for V and H 
is probably different, so you can’t maximize the antenna height at the same 
time.

There is also the issue of NSA – was NSA data taken with the 2nd antenna and 
mast in the chamber? And with them both moving how will that affect results?

I heard the Keysight team in California was planning on taking some data to 
investigate, but that was pre-covid so it probably got put on the back burner.





[cid:image046668.jpg@0FE011DE.083332D3]
David Schaefer
Technical Manager
Element Materials Technology
9349 W Broadway Ave
Brooklyn Park
,
MN
55445
,
United States
O +1 612 638 5136
ext. 10461
david.schae...@element.com<mailto:david.schae...@element.com>
www.element.com
[cid:image896062.png@4924F526.E988FDD0]<https://www.linkedin.com/organization-guest/company/element-materials-technology?challengeId=AQFf9AemZ4SobwAAAXOQwivOsnkHiTt2ByoCkOxVQjOGOjRlivicVgYlN1dz5QXjId9bpa0keWzfVxhl8KPj78uD6-S6nfqRsg=e49e0dc0-96a3-2516-27fa-ee2e8c42b177>
[cid:image667603.png@15C9F75A.BABE84ED]<https://twitter.com/ElementTesting/>
[cid:image614060.jpg@CAD9988F.B52C73EC]<https://elementmaterials.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_3xQqm84s6IydI5D>
From: Paasche, Dieter [mailto:dieter.paas...@christiedigital.com]
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 3:59 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?


CAUTION:This email originated from outside of Element Materials Technology. DO 
NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know 
the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if you are in any doubt 
about this email.
Hi,

I have seen that too at HP in Sacramento, CA. One antenna was in Vertical 
polarization and the other in Vertical. In my personal opinion, it is Ok for 
pre-scan, but I think it is complicated for the final scan. I think you still 
have to test each frequency and polarization one by one.

Sincerely,

Dieter Paasche

This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is confidential.  Any 
unauthorized use, distribution or disclosure is prohibited.  If you have 
received this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail 
or telephone and delete it and any attachments from your computer system and 
records.

From: Manny Barron mailto:mbar...@ieee.org>>
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2022 4:46 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

CAUTION:This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.

Back around 1998 when I worked for Tandem Computers (purchased by Compaq in 
1998, then purchased by HP in 2001), I visited the HP EMC Lab in Washington 
state (I went to see their 10m chamber since we were thinking of getting a 2nd 
10m chamber, which we did).

Well they used two antennas connected to two separate receivers for their RE 
tests. Can't remember if it was horizontal and vertical OR if it was two 
frequency ranges (30-300MHz and 300-1000MHz), but it was definitely two 
antennas and two receivers.  At that time they were also experimenting with 4 
antennas but I think still 2 receivers, but don't know if that was actually 
implemented. They wrote their own custom test software to handle the multiple 
antenna / receiver combinations.  The guy who ran that HP EMC test lab was Bob 
Dockey who later went to Philips Medical, if you can find him maybe he can 
elaborate on their RE test system of the time.

A year later we (now Compaq) purchased a new 10m chamber (now we had two), so I 
was thinking about the two antenna RE test method as well.  But then in 2002 
(now HP), HP shut down two full EMC labs with three 10m chambers (all within 1 
mi area in Cupertino, CA), and laid off almost all EMC personnel, something 
about too many labs and equipment after the corporate merger.  They ended up 
taking equipment to be tested to their Roseville, CA EMC test lab, about 100 
miles north.

So I never got a chance to research and implement the 2 antenna RE test system. 
Had all the equipment,  but it was too late.

Manny Barron



On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 11:00 AM Patrick 
mailto:conwa...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi All -

I'm wondering if there is any academic or practical literature on the use of 
two antennas during an emissions test.  For example, research or experiments on 
the use of two DRH's above 1.0 GHz, side-by-side, one vertical, the other 
horizontal.

Have any researchers looked at this?
Are there any experimental studies?

Thank you.
-Patrick
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
emc-p...@ieee.org<mai

Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

2022-05-02 Thread Paasche, Dieter

Hi,

I have seen that too at HP in Sacramento, CA. One antenna was in Vertical 
polarization and the other in Vertical. In my personal opinion, it is Ok for 
pre-scan, but I think it is complicated for the final scan. I think you still 
have to test each frequency and polarization one by one.

Sincerely,

Dieter Paasche

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From: Manny Barron 
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2022 4:46 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

CAUTION:This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.

Back around 1998 when I worked for Tandem Computers (purchased by Compaq in 
1998, then purchased by HP in 2001), I visited the HP EMC Lab in Washington 
state (I went to see their 10m chamber since we were thinking of getting a 2nd 
10m chamber, which we did).

Well they used two antennas connected to two separate receivers for their RE 
tests. Can't remember if it was horizontal and vertical OR if it was two 
frequency ranges (30-300MHz and 300-1000MHz), but it was definitely two 
antennas and two receivers.  At that time they were also experimenting with 4 
antennas but I think still 2 receivers, but don't know if that was actually 
implemented. They wrote their own custom test software to handle the multiple 
antenna / receiver combinations.  The guy who ran that HP EMC test lab was Bob 
Dockey who later went to Philips Medical, if you can find him maybe he can 
elaborate on their RE test system of the time.

A year later we (now Compaq) purchased a new 10m chamber (now we had two), so I 
was thinking about the two antenna RE test method as well.  But then in 2002 
(now HP), HP shut down two full EMC labs with three 10m chambers (all within 1 
mi area in Cupertino, CA), and laid off almost all EMC personnel, something 
about too many labs and equipment after the corporate merger.  They ended up 
taking equipment to be tested to their Roseville, CA EMC test lab, about 100 
miles north.

So I never got a chance to research and implement the 2 antenna RE test system. 
Had all the equipment,  but it was too late.

Manny Barron



On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 11:00 AM Patrick 
mailto:conwa...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi All -

I'm wondering if there is any academic or practical literature on the use of 
two antennas during an emissions test.  For example, research or experiments on 
the use of two DRH's above 1.0 GHz, side-by-side, one vertical, the other 
horizontal.

Have any researchers looked at this?
Are there any experimental studies?

Thank you.
-Patrick
-


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Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

2022-05-02 Thread Manny Barron

Back around 1998 when I worked for Tandem Computers (purchased by Compaq in
1998, then purchased by HP in 2001), I visited the HP EMC Lab in Washington
state (I went to see their 10m chamber since we were thinking
of getting a 2nd 10m chamber, which we did).

Well they used two antennas connected to two separate receivers for their
RE tests. Can't remember if it was horizontal and vertical OR if it was two
frequency ranges (30-300MHz and 300-1000MHz), but it was definitely two
antennas and two receivers.  At that time they were also experimenting with
4 antennas but I think still 2 receivers, but don't know if that was
actually implemented. They wrote their own custom test software to handle
the multiple antenna / receiver combinations.  The guy who ran that HP EMC
test lab was Bob Dockey who later went to Philips Medical, if you can find
him maybe he can elaborate on their RE test system of the time.

A year later we (now Compaq) purchased a new 10m chamber (now we had two),
so I was thinking about the two antenna RE test method as well.  But then
in 2002 (now HP), HP shut down two full EMC labs with three 10m chambers
(all within 1 mi area in Cupertino, CA), and laid off almost all EMC
personnel, something about too many labs and equipment after the corporate
merger.  They ended up taking equipment to be tested to their Roseville, CA
EMC test lab, about 100 miles north.

So I never got a chance to research and implement the 2 antenna RE test
system. Had all the equipment,  but it was too late.

Manny Barron

On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 11:00 AM Patrick  wrote:

> Hi All -
>
> I'm wondering if there is any academic or practical literature on the use
> of two antennas during an emissions test.  For example, research or
> experiments on the use of two DRH's above 1.0 GHz, side-by-side, one
> vertical, the other horizontal.
>
> Have any researchers looked at this?
> Are there any experimental studies?
>
> Thank you.
> -Patrick
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> emc-p...@ieee.org
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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> unsubscribe) 
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-

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Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

2022-05-02 Thread Ken Javor

Likely a totally different application than yours, but a long time ago on OATS 
measurements, there was development of a two-antenna test where one was for the 
actual measurement, but the other was pointed away to pick up the ambient, and 
the idea was to subtract the ambient out, and leave only the EUT emissions.

 

It was controversial.

 

MIL-STD-826 (1964 – 1967) had radiated emission antenna set-up drawings showing 
all antennas deployed simultaneously. In the days when each antenna had its own 
receiver, if you had enough techs that could speed up the test significantly. 
It should be noted that was unique to MIL-STD-826 and it did not survive into 
MIL-STD-461.

 

I’m thinking in your specific application, the antennas should be separated by 
some distance, so that they don’t affect each other. What that separation needs 
to be will depend on the desired uncertainty in the measurement.

 

-- 

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261

 

From: Patrick 
Reply-To: Patrick 
Date: Monday, May 2, 2022 at 2:00 PM
To: 
Subject: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

Hi All - 

 

I'm wondering if there is any academic or practical literature on the use of 
two antennas during an emissions test.  For example, research or experiments on 
the use of two DRH's above 1.0 GHz, side-by-side, one vertical, the other 
horizontal.

 

Have any researchers looked at this?   

Are there any experimental studies? 

 

Thank you.

-Patrick

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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Mike Cantwell  

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Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

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Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

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Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

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