Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

2016-12-02 Thread Jim Hulbert 
For high current bonding tests I have an Electronic Measurement Inc., EMs 
10-250 power supply.  10V/250A with integrated current and voltage drop meters.

Jim Hulbert
Pitney Bowes

From: IBM Ken [mailto:ibm...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 6:43 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

I too can vouch for doing the Bonding test to a few hundred amps using a 
Sorensen DC supply (and calibrated V and I meters and stopwatch...)

-Ken

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 5:07 PM, Scott Aldous 
<0220f70c299a-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org<mailto:0220f70c299a-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>>
 wrote:
I've done this test at several hundred amps before (not to 60950-1, but 
similar). I used an old 
Sorensen<http://www.programmablepower.com/brands/sorensen.htm> DC power supply 
(low voltage, high current), with external calibrated measurement for both 
current and voltage drop. Care must also be taken in connecting the power 
supply to the EUT to make sure it is low resistance.

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 1:52 PM, John Woodgate 
mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com>> wrote:
Reminds me of an amusing argument between a student and a 5 V 1000 A MG set, 
observed from a safe distance.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk<http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> J M Woodgate and Associates 
Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Ted Eckert 
[mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org<mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>]
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 7:11 PM

To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

The test of 2.6.3.4 does get interesting for high current equipment. I have 
personally run this test only on equipment rated up to 50 A. Even then, it 
required applying a 100 A test current for 4 minutes. For the 130 A rated 
product, you would have a test current of 260 A applied for 8 minutes.

It may not be easy to find a ground bond tester capable of supplying this 
current. I did my testing at 100 A using a transformer salvaged from a large 
scrap uninterruptible power supply. It allowed me to step down a 15 A, 120 V 
circuit to provide the necessary current at a voltage below the 12 V limit. 
With this transformer, only a calibrated volt-meter and current-meter were 
required.

One significant issue with this test setup is that additional care must be 
taken to ensure operator safety. Purchased equipment often has sensors to 
detect a faulty connection or other error that triggers the equipment to shut 
off power quickly. You likely won’t have this in equipment you build yourself 
for such testing. Proper PPE and safety precautions should be used when using 
any high-power equipment, but it may be necessary to talk with your facility 
safety staff as home-built equipment doesn’t come with a user manual telling 
you what is required for safety.

The lower voltage used should provide some safety benefit. However, a loose 
connection that comes in contact with an earth-grounded circuit may result in 
significant arcing. Even low voltages should be treated with respect when you 
have high current available.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Scott Aldous [mailto:0220f70c299a-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 9:04 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

Ken alluded to this before - alternately, 2.6.4.2 allows you to run the test of 
2.6.3.4 for constructions that don't meet the requirements of Table 3E.

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 8:42 PM, IBM Ken 
mailto:ibm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Bostjan;

That is my understanding; use the table to determine the cross-sectional area 
(as wire) required, and then ensure that the stud&nut arrangement provides at 
least triple that contact area.

-Ken

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Boštjan Glavič 
mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si>> wrote:
Hi Ken,

Thanks.
So on short, if table 3B brings requirement of 50mm2 conductor, you would 
accept terminal if it brings contact area of 150mm2?

Best regards,
Bostjan



From: IBM Ken [mailto:ibm...@gmail.com<mailto:ibm...@gmail.com>]
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 5:24 AM
To: Boštjan Glavič mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si>>
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

Hi Bostjan!
Can note (c) in Table 3E be applied to this product?

I think it is justifiable to extend the protective bonding rules to the PE 
connection; i.e. to pass the bonding test or to verify via inspection that the 
PE conductor is "not smaller" than the mains supply - but that's just my 
opinion.

-Ken

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Boštjan Glavič

Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

2016-12-01 Thread ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen 
What I did:

Bought the largest toroidal transformer available (2200 VA), and
used  copper tube (water pipe) or lightning conductors   to create 
one or 2 windings as a temporary
 secondary.  This gives you several volts at 400-500 A  (AC!) before
the primary gets overloaded.

Switch the primary with a solid state relay with ample capacity
 (as ring cores may/will have excessive inrush current), and
appropriate fuse. Use a 9V battery, a resistor and a momentary switch
to feed the SSR.



Feed it with an adjustable power transformer if you want 
to regulate the secundary current.
Most of us do own such a device in the voltage DIP immunity setup,
mine has 4000VA output and can be digitally controlled.
(or use the amplifier of a  Harmonics / Flicker set-up)


Regards,

Ing. Gert Gremmen
Approvals manager



+ ce marking of electrical/electronic equipment
+ Independent Consultancy Services
+ Compliance Testing and Design for CE marking according to EC-directives:
  - Electro Magnetic Compatibility 2014/30/EC
- Electrical Safety 2014/35/EC
- Radio & Telecommunication Terminal Equipment 99/5/EC

Web:    www.cetest.nl  (English) www.ce-test.nl (Dutch) www.cetest.fr (under 
construction)
Phone :  +31 10 415 24 26
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recipient(s) is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, 
please notify the sender either by telephone or by e-mail and 
delete the material from any computer. 
Thank you for your co-operation.

From: IBM Ken [mailto:ibm...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday 2 December 2016 00:43
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

I too can vouch for doing the Bonding test to a few hundred amps using a 
Sorensen DC supply (and calibrated V and I meters and stopwatch...)

-Ken

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 5:07 PM, Scott Aldous 
<0220f70c299a-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> wrote:
I've done this test at several hundred amps before (not to 60950-1, but 
similar). I used an old Sorensen DC power supply (low voltage, high current), 
with external calibrated measurement for both current and voltage drop. Care 
must also be taken in connecting the power supply to the EUT to make sure it is 
low resistance.

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 1:52 PM, John Woodgate  wrote:
Reminds me of an amusing argument between a student and a 5 V 1000 A MG set, 
observed from a safe distance.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 7:11 PM

To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE
 
The test of 2.6.3.4 does get interesting for high current equipment. I have 
personally run this test only on equipment rated up to 50 A. Even then, it 
required applying a 100 A test current for 4 minutes. For the 130 A rated 
product, you would have a test current of 260 A applied for 8 minutes. 
 
It may not be easy to find a ground bond tester capable of supplying this 
current. I did my testing at 100 A using a transformer salvaged from a large 
scrap uninterruptible power supply. It allowed me to step down a 15 A, 120 V 
circuit to provide the necessary current at a voltage below the 12 V limit. 
With this transformer, only a calibrated volt-meter and current-meter were 
required. 
 
One significant issue with this test setup is that additional care must be 
taken to ensure operator safety. Purchased equipment often has sensors to 
detect a faulty connection or other error that triggers the equipment to shut 
off power quickly. You likely won’t have this in equipment you build yourself 
for such testing. Proper PPE and safety precautions should be used when using 
any high-power equipment, but it may be necessary to talk with your facility 
safety staff as home-built equipment doesn’t come with a user manual telling 
you what is required for safety.
 
The lower voltage used should provide some safety benefit. However, a loose 
connection that comes in contact with an earth-grounded circuit may result in 
significant arcing. Even low voltages should be treated with respect when you 
have high current available. 
 
Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation
 
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.
 
From: Scott Aldous [mailto:0220f70c299a-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Thursday, December

Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

2016-12-01 Thread IBM Ken 
I too can vouch for doing the Bonding test to a few hundred amps using a
Sorensen DC supply (and calibrated V and I meters and stopwatch...)

-Ken

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 5:07 PM, Scott Aldous <
0220f70c299a-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> wrote:

> I've done this test at several hundred amps before (not to 60950-1, but
> similar). I used an old Sorensen
> <http://www.programmablepower.com/brands/sorensen.htm> DC power supply
> (low voltage, high current), with external calibrated measurement for both
> current and voltage drop. Care must also be taken in connecting the power
> supply to the EUT to make sure it is low resistance.
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 1:52 PM, John Woodgate 
> wrote:
>
>> Reminds me of an amusing argument between a student and a 5 V 1000 A MG
>> set, observed from a safe distance.
>>
>>
>>
>> With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
>>
>> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England
>>
>>
>>
>> Sylvae in aeternum manent.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Ted Eckert [mailto:000007cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 1, 2016 7:11 PM
>>
>> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE
>>
>>
>>
>> The test of 2.6.3.4 does get interesting for high current equipment. I
>> have personally run this test only on equipment rated up to 50 A. Even
>> then, it required applying a 100 A test current for 4 minutes. For the 130
>> A rated product, you would have a test current of 260 A applied for 8
>> minutes.
>>
>>
>>
>> It may not be easy to find a ground bond tester capable of supplying this
>> current. I did my testing at 100 A using a transformer salvaged from a
>> large scrap uninterruptible power supply. It allowed me to step down a 15
>> A, 120 V circuit to provide the necessary current at a voltage below the 12
>> V limit. With this transformer, only a calibrated volt-meter and
>> current-meter were required.
>>
>>
>>
>> One significant issue with this test setup is that additional care must
>> be taken to ensure operator safety. Purchased equipment often has sensors
>> to detect a faulty connection or other error that triggers the equipment to
>> shut off power quickly. You likely won’t have this in equipment you build
>> yourself for such testing. Proper PPE and safety precautions should be used
>> when using any high-power equipment, but it may be necessary to talk with
>> your facility safety staff as home-built equipment doesn’t come with a user
>> manual telling you what is required for safety.
>>
>>
>>
>> The lower voltage used should provide some safety benefit. However, a
>> loose connection that comes in contact with an earth-grounded circuit may
>> result in significant arcing. Even low voltages should be treated with
>> respect when you have high current available.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ted Eckert
>>
>> Microsoft Corporation
>>
>>
>>
>> The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of
>> my employer.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Scott Aldous [mailto:0220f70c299a-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org
>> <0220f70c299a-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>]
>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 1, 2016 9:04 AM
>> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE
>>
>>
>>
>> Ken alluded to this before - alternately, 2.6.4.2 allows you to run the
>> test of 2.6.3.4 for constructions that don't meet the requirements of Table
>> 3E.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 8:42 PM, IBM Ken  wrote:
>>
>> Bostjan;
>>
>>
>>
>> That is my understanding; use the table to determine the cross-sectional
>> area (as wire) required, and then ensure that the stud&nut
>> arrangement provides at least triple that contact area.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Ken
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Boštjan Glavič 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Ken,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> So on short, if table 3B brings requirement of 50mm2 conductor, you would
>> accept terminal if it brings contact area of 150mm2?
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Bostjan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* IBM Ken [mailto:ibm...@gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 1, 2016 5:24 AM
>> *To:* Boštjan Glavič 
>> *Cc:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>

Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

2016-12-01 Thread Scott Aldous 
I've done this test at several hundred amps before (not to 60950-1, but
similar). I used an old Sorensen
<http://www.programmablepower.com/brands/sorensen.htm> DC power supply (low
voltage, high current), with external calibrated measurement for both
current and voltage drop. Care must also be taken in connecting the power
supply to the EUT to make sure it is low resistance.

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 1:52 PM, John Woodgate 
wrote:

> Reminds me of an amusing argument between a student and a 5 V 1000 A MG
> set, observed from a safe distance.
>
>
>
> With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
>
> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England
>
>
>
> Sylvae in aeternum manent.
>
>
>
> *From:* Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 1, 2016 7:11 PM
>
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE
>
>
>
> The test of 2.6.3.4 does get interesting for high current equipment. I
> have personally run this test only on equipment rated up to 50 A. Even
> then, it required applying a 100 A test current for 4 minutes. For the 130
> A rated product, you would have a test current of 260 A applied for 8
> minutes.
>
>
>
> It may not be easy to find a ground bond tester capable of supplying this
> current. I did my testing at 100 A using a transformer salvaged from a
> large scrap uninterruptible power supply. It allowed me to step down a 15
> A, 120 V circuit to provide the necessary current at a voltage below the 12
> V limit. With this transformer, only a calibrated volt-meter and
> current-meter were required.
>
>
>
> One significant issue with this test setup is that additional care must be
> taken to ensure operator safety. Purchased equipment often has sensors to
> detect a faulty connection or other error that triggers the equipment to
> shut off power quickly. You likely won’t have this in equipment you build
> yourself for such testing. Proper PPE and safety precautions should be used
> when using any high-power equipment, but it may be necessary to talk with
> your facility safety staff as home-built equipment doesn’t come with a user
> manual telling you what is required for safety.
>
>
>
> The lower voltage used should provide some safety benefit. However, a
> loose connection that comes in contact with an earth-grounded circuit may
> result in significant arcing. Even low voltages should be treated with
> respect when you have high current available.
>
>
>
> Ted Eckert
>
> Microsoft Corporation
>
>
>
> The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of
> my employer.
>
>
>
> *From:* Scott Aldous [mailto:0220f70c299a-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org
> <0220f70c299a-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>]
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 1, 2016 9:04 AM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE
>
>
>
> Ken alluded to this before - alternately, 2.6.4.2 allows you to run the
> test of 2.6.3.4 for constructions that don't meet the requirements of Table
> 3E.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 8:42 PM, IBM Ken  wrote:
>
> Bostjan;
>
>
>
> That is my understanding; use the table to determine the cross-sectional
> area (as wire) required, and then ensure that the stud&nut
> arrangement provides at least triple that contact area.
>
>
>
> -Ken
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Boštjan Glavič 
> wrote:
>
> Hi Ken,
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> So on short, if table 3B brings requirement of 50mm2 conductor, you would
> accept terminal if it brings contact area of 150mm2?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Bostjan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* IBM Ken [mailto:ibm...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 1, 2016 5:24 AM
> *To:* Boštjan Glavič 
> *Cc:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE
>
>
>
> Hi Bostjan!
>
> Can note (c) in Table 3E be applied to this product?
>
>
>
> I think it is justifiable to extend the protective bonding rules to the PE
> connection; i.e. to pass the bonding test or to verify via inspection that
> the PE conductor is "not smaller" than the mains supply - but that's just
> my opinion.
>
>
>
> -Ken
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Boštjan Glavič 
> wrote:
>
> Dear experts
>
>
>
> I hope there are some experts dealing with IEC 60950-1 standard. We have a
> product that has rated input current 130A. Unit is intended for permanent
> connection to mains and provide special terminals for 3 phases an

Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

2016-12-01 Thread John Woodgate 
Reminds me of an amusing argument between a student and a 5 V 1000 A MG set, 
observed from a safe distance.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 7:11 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE
 
The test of 2.6.3.4 does get interesting for high current equipment. I have 
personally run this test only on equipment rated up to 50 A. Even then, it 
required applying a 100 A test current for 4 minutes. For the 130 A rated 
product, you would have a test current of 260 A applied for 8 minutes. 
 
It may not be easy to find a ground bond tester capable of supplying this 
current. I did my testing at 100 A using a transformer salvaged from a large 
scrap uninterruptible power supply. It allowed me to step down a 15 A, 120 V 
circuit to provide the necessary current at a voltage below the 12 V limit. 
With this transformer, only a calibrated volt-meter and current-meter were 
required. 
 
One significant issue with this test setup is that additional care must be 
taken to ensure operator safety. Purchased equipment often has sensors to 
detect a faulty connection or other error that triggers the equipment to shut 
off power quickly. You likely won’t have this in equipment you build yourself 
for such testing. Proper PPE and safety precautions should be used when using 
any high-power equipment, but it may be necessary to talk with your facility 
safety staff as home-built equipment doesn’t come with a user manual telling 
you what is required for safety.
 
The lower voltage used should provide some safety benefit. However, a loose 
connection that comes in contact with an earth-grounded circuit may result in 
significant arcing. Even low voltages should be treated with respect when you 
have high current available. 
 
Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation
 
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.
 
From: Scott Aldous [mailto:0220f70c299a-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 9:04 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE
 
Ken alluded to this before - alternately, 2.6.4.2 allows you to run the test of 
2.6.3.4 for constructions that don't meet the requirements of Table 3E.
 
On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 8:42 PM, IBM Ken mailto:ibm...@gmail.com> > wrote:
Bostjan;
 
That is my understanding; use the table to determine the cross-sectional area 
(as wire) required, and then ensure that the stud&nut arrangement provides at 
least triple that contact area.  
 
-Ken
 
On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Boštjan Glavič mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si> > wrote:
Hi Ken,
 
Thanks.
So on short, if table 3B brings requirement of 50mm2 conductor, you would 
accept terminal if it brings contact area of 150mm2?
 
Best regards,
Bostjan
 
 
 
From: IBM Ken [mailto:ibm...@gmail.com <mailto:ibm...@gmail.com> ] 
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 5:24 AM
To: Boštjan Glavič mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si> >
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE
 
Hi Bostjan!
Can note (c) in Table 3E be applied to this product?  
 
I think it is justifiable to extend the protective bonding rules to the PE 
connection; i.e. to pass the bonding test or to verify via inspection that the 
PE conductor is "not smaller" than the mains supply - but that's just my 
opinion.  
 
-Ken
 
On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Boštjan Glavič mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si> > wrote:
Dear experts
 
I hope there are some experts dealing with IEC 60950-1 standard. We have a 
product that has rated input current 130A. Unit is intended for permanent 
connection to mains and provide special terminals for 3 phases and bolt with 
stud for PE connectio.
 
Question is how should we evaluate dimension of this PE stud according to 
clause 2.6.4.2, 3.3.5 and table 3E of IEC 60950-1 since values in the table go 
only up to 80A rated current.
 
Thank you for your support.
 
Best regards,
Bostjan
 
 
-

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Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/

Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

2016-12-01 Thread Ted Eckert 
The test of 2.6.3.4 does get interesting for high current equipment. I have 
personally run this test only on equipment rated up to 50 A. Even then, it 
required applying a 100 A test current for 4 minutes. For the 130 A rated 
product, you would have a test current of 260 A applied for 8 minutes.

It may not be easy to find a ground bond tester capable of supplying this 
current. I did my testing at 100 A using a transformer salvaged from a large 
scrap uninterruptible power supply. It allowed me to step down a 15 A, 120 V 
circuit to provide the necessary current at a voltage below the 12 V limit. 
With this transformer, only a calibrated volt-meter and current-meter were 
required.

One significant issue with this test setup is that additional care must be 
taken to ensure operator safety. Purchased equipment often has sensors to 
detect a faulty connection or other error that triggers the equipment to shut 
off power quickly. You likely won’t have this in equipment you build yourself 
for such testing. Proper PPE and safety precautions should be used when using 
any high-power equipment, but it may be necessary to talk with your facility 
safety staff as home-built equipment doesn’t come with a user manual telling 
you what is required for safety.

The lower voltage used should provide some safety benefit. However, a loose 
connection that comes in contact with an earth-grounded circuit may result in 
significant arcing. Even low voltages should be treated with respect when you 
have high current available.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Scott Aldous [mailto:0220f70c299a-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 9:04 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

Ken alluded to this before - alternately, 2.6.4.2 allows you to run the test of 
2.6.3.4 for constructions that don't meet the requirements of Table 3E.

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 8:42 PM, IBM Ken 
mailto:ibm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Bostjan;

That is my understanding; use the table to determine the cross-sectional area 
(as wire) required, and then ensure that the stud&nut arrangement provides at 
least triple that contact area.

-Ken

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Boštjan Glavič 
mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si>> wrote:
Hi Ken,

Thanks.
So on short, if table 3B brings requirement of 50mm2 conductor, you would 
accept terminal if it brings contact area of 150mm2?

Best regards,
Bostjan



From: IBM Ken [mailto:ibm...@gmail.com<mailto:ibm...@gmail.com>]
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 5:24 AM
To: Boštjan Glavič mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si>>
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

Hi Bostjan!
Can note (c) in Table 3E be applied to this product?

I think it is justifiable to extend the protective bonding rules to the PE 
connection; i.e. to pass the bonding test or to verify via inspection that the 
PE conductor is "not smaller" than the mains supply - but that's just my 
opinion.

-Ken

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Boštjan Glavič 
mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si>> wrote:
Dear experts

I hope there are some experts dealing with IEC 60950-1 standard. We have a 
product that has rated input current 130A. Unit is intended for permanent 
connection to mains and provide special terminals for 3 phases and bolt with 
stud for PE connectio.

Question is how should we evaluate dimension of this PE stud according to 
clause 2.6.4.2, 3.3.5 and table 3E of IEC 60950-1 since values in the table go 
only up to 80A rated current.

Thank you for your support.

Best regards,
Bostjan


-


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-


T

Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

2016-12-01 Thread Boštjan Glavič 
Hello Rich,

Thank you for your comment.

What you wrote is a good general approach however in this particular case phase 
conductors will be attached directly to terminal of the mains switch and PE 
conductor will be fixed to a stud terminal. So I cannot compare dimensions 
directly.

Do you maybe know why table is limited to 80A?

Best regards,
Bostjan

On 1. dec. 2016, at 19.37, Richard Nute mailto:ri...@ieee.org>> 
wrote:


As a general rule, the PE hardware should be the same as the phase hardware.  
Since, under worst-case fault, the PE will carry the maximum phase current from 
the wall, construction should be the same as phase construction.

Bonding conductor (internal earthing conductor) hardware depends on fault 
current within the equipment, usually depending on the internal overcurrent 
protective device rating.

Rich



From: Scott Aldous [mailto:0220f70c299a-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 9:04 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

Ken alluded to this before - alternately, 2.6.4.2 allows you to run the test of 
2.6.3.4 for constructions that don't meet the requirements of Table 3E.

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 8:42 PM, IBM Ken 
mailto:ibm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Bostjan;

That is my understanding; use the table to determine the cross-sectional area 
(as wire) required, and then ensure that the stud&nut arrangement provides at 
least triple that contact area.

-Ken

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Boštjan Glavič 
mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si>> wrote:
Hi Ken,

Thanks.
So on short, if table 3B brings requirement of 50mm2 conductor, you would 
accept terminal if it brings contact area of 150mm2?

Best regards,
Bostjan



From: IBM Ken [mailto:ibm...@gmail.com<mailto:ibm...@gmail.com>]
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 5:24 AM
To: Boštjan Glavič mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si>>
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

Hi Bostjan!
Can note (c) in Table 3E be applied to this product?

I think it is justifiable to extend the protective bonding rules to the PE 
connection; i.e. to pass the bonding test or to verify via inspection that the 
PE conductor is "not smaller" than the mains supply - but that's just my 
opinion.

-Ken

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Boštjan Glavič 
mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si>> wrote:
Dear experts

I hope there are some experts dealing with IEC 60950-1 standard. We have a 
product that has rated input current 130A. Unit is intended for permanent 
connection to mains and provide special terminals for 3 phases and bolt with 
stud for PE connectio.

Question is how should we evaluate dimension of this PE stud according to 
clause 2.6.4.2, 3.3.5 and table 3E of IEC 60950-1 since values in the table go 
only up to 80A rated current.

Thank you for your support.

Best regards,
Bostjan


-


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-


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Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

2016-12-01 Thread Richard Nute 
 

As a general rule, the PE hardware should be the same as the phase hardware.  
Since, under worst-case fault, the PE will carry the maximum phase current from 
the wall, construction should be the same as phase construction.  

 

Bonding conductor (internal earthing conductor) hardware depends on fault 
current within the equipment, usually depending on the internal overcurrent 
protective device rating.

 

Rich

 

 

 

From: Scott Aldous [mailto:0220f70c299a-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 9:04 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

 

Ken alluded to this before - alternately, 2.6.4.2 allows you to run the test of 
2.6.3.4 for constructions that don't meet the requirements of Table 3E.

 

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 8:42 PM, IBM Ken mailto:ibm...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Bostjan;

 

That is my understanding; use the table to determine the cross-sectional area 
(as wire) required, and then ensure that the stud&nut arrangement provides at 
least triple that contact area.  

 

-Ken

 

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Boštjan Glavič mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si> > wrote:

Hi Ken,

 

Thanks.

So on short, if table 3B brings requirement of 50mm2 conductor, you would 
accept terminal if it brings contact area of 150mm2?

 

Best regards,

Bostjan

 

 

 

From: IBM Ken [mailto:ibm...@gmail.com <mailto:ibm...@gmail.com> ] 
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 5:24 AM
To: Boštjan Glavič mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si> >
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

 

Hi Bostjan!

Can note (c) in Table 3E be applied to this product?  

 

I think it is justifiable to extend the protective bonding rules to the PE 
connection; i.e. to pass the bonding test or to verify via inspection that the 
PE conductor is "not smaller" than the mains supply - but that's just my 
opinion.  

 

-Ken

 

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Boštjan Glavič mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si> > wrote:

Dear experts

 

I hope there are some experts dealing with IEC 60950-1 standard. We have a 
product that has rated input current 130A. Unit is intended for permanent 
connection to mains and provide special terminals for 3 phases and bolt with 
stud for PE connectio.

 

Question is how should we evaluate dimension of this PE stud according to 
clause 2.6.4.2, 3.3.5 and table 3E of IEC 60950-1 since values in the table go 
only up to 80A rated current.

 

Thank you for your support.

 

Best regards,

Bostjan

 

 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

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David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > 





 

-- 

Scott Aldous | Regulatory Compliance

Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

2016-12-01 Thread Scott Aldous 
Ken alluded to this before - alternately, 2.6.4.2 allows you to run the
test of 2.6.3.4 for constructions that don't meet the requirements of Table
3E.

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 8:42 PM, IBM Ken  wrote:

> Bostjan;
>
> That is my understanding; use the table to determine the cross-sectional
> area (as wire) required, and then ensure that the stud&nut
> arrangement provides at least triple that contact area.
>
> -Ken
>
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Boštjan Glavič 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Ken,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> So on short, if table 3B brings requirement of 50mm2 conductor, you would
>> accept terminal if it brings contact area of 150mm2?
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Bostjan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* IBM Ken [mailto:ibm...@gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 1, 2016 5:24 AM
>> *To:* Boštjan Glavič 
>> *Cc:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Bostjan!
>>
>> Can note (c) in Table 3E be applied to this product?
>>
>>
>>
>> I think it is justifiable to extend the protective bonding rules to the
>> PE connection; i.e. to pass the bonding test or to verify via inspection
>> that the PE conductor is "not smaller" than the mains supply - but
>> that's just my opinion.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Ken
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Boštjan Glavič 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear experts
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope there are some experts dealing with IEC 60950-1 standard. We have
>> a product that has rated input current 130A. Unit is intended for permanent
>> connection to mains and provide special terminals for 3 phases and bolt
>> with stud for PE connectio.
>>
>>
>>
>> Question is how should we evaluate dimension of this PE stud according to
>> clause 2.6.4.2, 3.3.5 and table 3E of IEC 60950-1 since values in the table
>> go only up to 80A rated current.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you for your support.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Bostjan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> 
>>
>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
>> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
>> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>>
>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
>> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>>
>> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site
>> at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
>> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>>
>> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
>> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
>> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>>
>> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
>> Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org>
>> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org>
>>
>> For policy questions, send mail to:
>> Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org>
>> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org>
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org>
> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com>
>



-- 
Scott Aldous | Regulatory Compliance Program Manager |
scottald...@google.com | 650-253-1994

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Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

2016-11-30 Thread IBM Ken 
Bostjan;

That is my understanding; use the table to determine the cross-sectional
area (as wire) required, and then ensure that the stud&nut
arrangement provides at least triple that contact area.

-Ken

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Boštjan Glavič 
wrote:

> Hi Ken,
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> So on short, if table 3B brings requirement of 50mm2 conductor, you would
> accept terminal if it brings contact area of 150mm2?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Bostjan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* IBM Ken [mailto:ibm...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 1, 2016 5:24 AM
> *To:* Boštjan Glavič 
> *Cc:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE
>
>
>
> Hi Bostjan!
>
> Can note (c) in Table 3E be applied to this product?
>
>
>
> I think it is justifiable to extend the protective bonding rules to the PE
> connection; i.e. to pass the bonding test or to verify via inspection that
> the PE conductor is "not smaller" than the mains supply - but that's just
> my opinion.
>
>
>
> -Ken
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Boštjan Glavič 
> wrote:
>
> Dear experts
>
>
>
> I hope there are some experts dealing with IEC 60950-1 standard. We have a
> product that has rated input current 130A. Unit is intended for permanent
> connection to mains and provide special terminals for 3 phases and bolt
> with stud for PE connectio.
>
>
>
> Question is how should we evaluate dimension of this PE stud according to
> clause 2.6.4.2, 3.3.5 and table 3E of IEC 60950-1 since values in the table
> go only up to 80A rated current.
>
>
>
> Thank you for your support.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Bostjan
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org>
> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org>
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org>
> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com>
>
>
>

-

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Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

2016-11-30 Thread Boštjan Glavič 
Hi Ken,

Thanks.
So on short, if table 3B brings requirement of 50mm2 conductor, you would 
accept terminal if it brings contact area of 150mm2?

Best regards,
Bostjan



From: IBM Ken [mailto:ibm...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 5:24 AM
To: Boštjan Glavič 
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

Hi Bostjan!
Can note (c) in Table 3E be applied to this product?

I think it is justifiable to extend the protective bonding rules to the PE 
connection; i.e. to pass the bonding test or to verify via inspection that the 
PE conductor is "not smaller" than the mains supply - but that's just my 
opinion.

-Ken

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Boštjan Glavič 
mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si>> wrote:
Dear experts

I hope there are some experts dealing with IEC 60950-1 standard. We have a 
product that has rated input current 130A. Unit is intended for permanent 
connection to mains and provide special terminals for 3 phases and bolt with 
stud for PE connectio.

Question is how should we evaluate dimension of this PE stud according to 
clause 2.6.4.2, 3.3.5 and table 3E of IEC 60950-1 since values in the table go 
only up to 80A rated current.

Thank you for your support.

Best regards,
Bostjan


-


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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Jim Bacher:  
David Heald:

Re: [PSES] dimension of the stud for PE

2016-11-30 Thread IBM Ken 
Hi Bostjan!
Can note (c) in Table 3E be applied to this product?

I think it is justifiable to extend the protective bonding rules to the PE
connection; i.e. to pass the bonding test or to verify via inspection that
the PE conductor is "not smaller" than the mains supply - but that's just
my opinion.

-Ken

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Boštjan Glavič 
wrote:

> Dear experts
>
>
>
> I hope there are some experts dealing with IEC 60950-1 standard. We have a
> product that has rated input current 130A. Unit is intended for permanent
> connection to mains and provide special terminals for 3 phases and bolt
> with stud for PE connectio.
>
>
>
> Question is how should we evaluate dimension of this PE stud according to
> clause 2.6.4.2, 3.3.5 and table 3E of IEC 60950-1 since values in the table
> go only up to 80A rated current.
>
>
>
> Thank you for your support.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Bostjan
>
>
>
>
> -
> 
>
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-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: