Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[John Dammeyer]

Hi guys,

I think the other thing that came up was the changing processor environment.
The Beagles have been around for a few years now.  I've just received the
second edition of Derek Molloy's book.  Much better than the first.  But if
I was going to complain about the BBB it would be the Linux moving target
more than the hardware.Hardware does tend to be more stable.  

I used a prototype development board to develop software for a Motorola
9S12DP512 that is like the original 8 bit MC6809 family but expanded into
the pseudo MC6812.
http://www.autoartisans.com/rings/M9S12-Eval2.jpg
One of these eval boards was mounted in a metal box and ran for a year in an
outdoor heated cabinet.  The processor has 5 CAN bus channels, I wired in a
USB to parallel port interface.  The design with the proto board was started
at Christmas 2008.  Installed end of February 2009.  At the same time I also
had to design the lamps that the board talked to and the PC software that
talked to the M9S12.
The project was:
http://www.autoartisans.com/rings/YVR-ORings.jpg

In the fall, because the proto-boards were no longer available I whipped out
custom module in less than a month.  With 6 relay drivers, 6 dry contact
switch sensing and added an RS485 port.  There's also an internal expansion
connector which eventually allowed me to add a Real Time clock, MicroSD card
reader and Ethernet Module.
http://www.autoartisans.com/rings/Assembled9S12-1.JPG

Two of those were installed at the end of OCT2009 and ran until the end of
April 2010.
http://www.autoartisans.com/rings/Barge1a.jpg

That was 10 years ago.  The processors, even with the sale of Motorola, are
still available.  For how long I don't know.  The IP was bought by my new
customer and I've been making these modules and writing software for them
ever since.  32K RAM, 512K flash memory in a 64K paged memory map.   At some
point we may get an End Of Life email.  Then the decision is only really for
how many extra processors to order.  500? 1000?  The development environment
only ran on Windows and I'm not even sure it will run on WIN-10.  It hasn't
been changed or upgraded for 10 years either.

Or maybe it's time to look at the ARM family.  I believe ST makes a 4 or 5
CAN port ARM processor.   It's whether or not there is single step debugging
hardware available.  The current 9S12 is programmed via the USB port with
encrypted files.  So that would have to be developed for the ST family of
hex files.  The modules on the CAN bus (CANopen) are also programmed with
encrypted files.  

Some of the 9S12 software is closely coupled to the paging and 8/16 bit
architecture.  Changing isn't just a recompile.  

And to bring this back to LinuxCNC and ARM or other technology.  The
software environment has to stabilize.  A moving target, be it the OS, the
IDE, the compiler, hardware etc. doesn't make for stability if the
developers spend more time updating just to stay current.  

I'm still using a DELTA 1939 band saw.  It cuts wood.  Gets the occasional
replacement blade.  Tires.  Yes it's a simple tool compared to a PC but it
does the job.  Until we look at the CNC control of the yet again simple
milling machines and lathes we won't see stability.

And I realize this is not the majority opinion.

John



> I am not against modern CPU architecture. It's the sandwich design that
> makes no sense to me. And lack of simple connection with easy
> interchangeable interfaces for DIO and stepper motors drivers. Capes,
> hats, and underware are not professional solutions. It's toys on top of
> toys for school projects. Might as well put that in Lego plastics.
> 
> If Beaglebone came with a decent PCB design so that companies could make
> professional interfaces for it I would be all over that architecture. I
> don't see it anywhere. Trouble is that modern designers don't bother to
> see what people created with much more limited resources in the 70's and
> 80's. S-100 bus would be better than a "sandwich with header connectors".
> 



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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[John Dammeyer]

My mill is equivalent to a Grizzly G3606.  From the now defunct House of
Tools.  They handle the broken parts and assemble and make sure everything
is there before I ever saw it.  No real complaints but it's not a HAAS.  Of
course the price was nowhere near that either.  

I know for sure that I'm going to have to either rebuild (redesign) the X
axis nut or just install ball screws (preferred).  The PC, the CNC control
software are such a small part of the whole thing.

The BeagleBone design is published and can be used in other layouts.
Nothing stops someone from producing a more S100 if you will (but smaller
cards) system using it as a backbone processor.  Although it's video
processing is pretty pitiful.  The Pi is not public.

But again, 1000 hours  (about 6 months work).  $100 to $150 per hour.  Say
with all the design work including metalwork etc. that you can create that
magic Linux CNC based box for $150,000.   The customer base will probably
only want to pay $500 at the most for it since you can duplicate what it
does with used PCs and some hardware.  The motors, couplers, power supplies
etc. remain constant regardless of the install.   So if you want to make
back your investment and earn a living then $150,000 R / $500 per unit is
300 units.

And even with $500 per unit the end user still has to modify his machine
which is where all the work and money is.   If the need was there it would
already be filled.IMHO.

John




> 
> My Grizzly machine was delivered upside down, broken parts inside,
> bearing for lead screw seized first hour of use resulting in broken cast
> iron gears. When you look at steel and finish quality you see that's
> worth less than what you paid for.
> 
> --
> Rafael
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Rafael Skodlar]

On 2/19/19 5:28 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:

I did find the actual supplier web site.
http://newker-cnc.com/index.php?l=3

Having some trouble downloading the English manual but these are the units
sold through Alibaba.


There you go, classic problem with made in china.


I'm not in any way saying these are better than LinuxCNC on a PC or
MachineKit on a Beaglebone.  They do claim to be using ARMs.  The point is


I am not against modern CPU architecture. It's the sandwich design that 
makes no sense to me. And lack of simple connection with easy 
interchangeable interfaces for DIO and stepper motors drivers. Capes, 
hats, and underware are not professional solutions. It's toys on top of 
toys for school projects. Might as well put that in Lego plastics.


If Beaglebone came with a decent PCB design so that companies could make 
professional interfaces for it I would be all over that architecture. I 
don't see it anywhere. Trouble is that modern designers don't bother to 
see what people created with much more limited resources in the 70's and 
80's. S-100 bus would be better than a "sandwich with header connectors".



for the money they are asking it's just another example of a complete
package, ready to go, that probably does some level of machining well enough
to make parts.  And fundamentally it's all about making parts as cheaply as
possible.


You get complete packages here in the US also. The cost is not adjusted 
to DIY and experimenters. Kickstart with LinuxCNC based on open 
architecture would be good start ;-)




Unless I win a lottery I can't see buying one just to play with.  And I
already have my $25 PCs I bought to run LinuxCNC or MACH3.  But by the time


Lottery would make it possible to buy good US made product with manual 
you can read and mobile phone to make a call to person that understands 
what your problem is.



all that stuff is assembled and mounted the costs really do exceed the price
of the far east units.  Just like anyone building a Knee Mill in North
America wouldn't be able to compete with the same size units made in the far


Industrial revolution started mostly in USA so there is no reason it 
could not be done again. Just depends on how hungry people are.



east.  That's why the Grizzly, Tormach etc mills are all from the far east.

John


My Grizzly machine was delivered upside down, broken parts inside, 
bearing for lead screw seized first hour of use resulting in broken cast 
iron gears. When you look at steel and finish quality you see that's 
worth less than what you paid for.


--
Rafael


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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[John Dammeyer]

I did find the actual supplier web site.
http://newker-cnc.com/index.php?l=3

Having some trouble downloading the English manual but these are the units
sold through Alibaba.  

I'm not in any way saying these are better than LinuxCNC on a PC or
MachineKit on a Beaglebone.  They do claim to be using ARMs.  The point is
for the money they are asking it's just another example of a complete
package, ready to go, that probably does some level of machining well enough
to make parts.  And fundamentally it's all about making parts as cheaply as
possible.  

Unless I win a lottery I can't see buying one just to play with.  And I
already have my $25 PCs I bought to run LinuxCNC or MACH3.  But by the time
all that stuff is assembled and mounted the costs really do exceed the price
of the far east units.  Just like anyone building a Knee Mill in North
America wouldn't be able to compete with the same size units made in the far
east.  That's why the Grizzly, Tormach etc mills are all from the far east.

John 



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Re: [Emc-users] Easy use of a 2 line URL [Was: Re: DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Martin Dobbins]

tinyurl.com


Martin

From: John Dammeyer 
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 5:59 PM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Easy use of a 2 line URL [Was: Re: DIY CNC builder 
dilemma, open request for comments

What I do with long URLs  (outlook 2010) is edit the email message.  I
select 'Actions' and then 'Edit Message'.  At that point I can turn the
multi-line URL back into one long line.  Add an ENTER key at the end of the
line and the text highlighting even changes back to blue for the URL.  Then
save the email as edited and click on the link.  Takes longer to describe
than to do.

John




> -Original Message-
> From: Erik Christiansen [mailto:dva...@internode.on.net]
> Sent: February-19-19 3:22 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Easy use of a 2 line URL [Was: Re: DIY CNC
builder
> dilemma, open request for comments
>
> On 19.02.19 07:32, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Monday 18 February 2019 23:57:28 Erik Christiansen wrote:
> >
> > > On 18.02.19 22:47, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > Already set true here Erik. Next? ;-)
> > >
> > > And it didn't take the lumpy URL when pasted whack in the middle of
> > > the screen? (Dunno that I have any other magic settings. That one
> > > works here.)
> > >
> > > Erik
> > >
> > Didn't try it there. Into the address box, it failed. Anyplace it took
> > the paste, it did a google search, and failed.
>
> It works if I paste in the window _outside_ the address box, which still
> seems to need a one-piece URL. (So I don't use that for pasting any
> more, only hand typing.)
>
> Erik
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Easy use of a 2 line URL [Was: Re: DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[John Dammeyer]

What I do with long URLs  (outlook 2010) is edit the email message.  I
select 'Actions' and then 'Edit Message'.  At that point I can turn the
multi-line URL back into one long line.  Add an ENTER key at the end of the
line and the text highlighting even changes back to blue for the URL.  Then
save the email as edited and click on the link.  Takes longer to describe
than to do.

John




> -Original Message-
> From: Erik Christiansen [mailto:dva...@internode.on.net]
> Sent: February-19-19 3:22 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Easy use of a 2 line URL [Was: Re: DIY CNC
builder
> dilemma, open request for comments
> 
> On 19.02.19 07:32, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Monday 18 February 2019 23:57:28 Erik Christiansen wrote:
> >
> > > On 18.02.19 22:47, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > Already set true here Erik. Next? ;-)
> > >
> > > And it didn't take the lumpy URL when pasted whack in the middle of
> > > the screen? (Dunno that I have any other magic settings. That one
> > > works here.)
> > >
> > > Erik
> > >
> > Didn't try it there. Into the address box, it failed. Anyplace it took
> > the paste, it did a google search, and failed.
> 
> It works if I paste in the window _outside_ the address box, which still
> seems to need a one-piece URL. (So I don't use that for pasting any
> more, only hand typing.)
> 
> Erik
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Easy use of a 2 line URL [Was: Re: DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Erik Christiansen]

On 19.02.19 07:32, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Monday 18 February 2019 23:57:28 Erik Christiansen wrote:
> 
> > On 18.02.19 22:47, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > Already set true here Erik. Next? ;-)
> >
> > And it didn't take the lumpy URL when pasted whack in the middle of
> > the screen? (Dunno that I have any other magic settings. That one
> > works here.)
> >
> > Erik
> >
> Didn't try it there. Into the address box, it failed. Anyplace it took 
> the paste, it did a google search, and failed.

It works if I paste in the window _outside_ the address box, which still
seems to need a one-piece URL. (So I don't use that for pasting any
more, only hand typing.)

Erik


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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Lester Caine]

On 19/02/2019 17:30, John Dammeyer wrote:

Lester,
I would never buy the far east solution myself.  My original point was that
building a dedicated box that does everything and doesn't use, as the OP
remarked, use old PC technology, isn't really an option when the price of
those systems is so low.

I still think the BBB with Replicape is a good choice even if I'm not using
mine yet.


I've got the BBB plugged into a CRAMPS board with MachineKit installed, 
but still need to work out if I'm configuring it for the 3D printer or a 
Lathe ;) The 'far east' solution for the printer does most of the job 
but falls short the second one needs to tweak something, although I DO 
now have the config file for it and that does allow some changes to be 
made. I THINK my point was that while the far east stuff is obviously 
based on other open source code it is only the likes of LinuxCNC that 
actually allows a flexible path forward. The far east boxes are 
basically what you see is all you get? And then they don't even document 
just what they are selling?


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - https://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk


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Re: [Emc-users] Dedicated Processor hardware for LinuxCNC

[Nicklas Karlsson]

On Tue, 19 Feb 2019 01:00:21 + (UTC)
Greg Bentzinger via Emc-users  wrote:

> ( Greg )
> Every kid would love to ask for a pony, if they thought they could get it 
> they would ask for a unicorn. Reality however usually proves this to be 
> impractical to impossible.
> Everything is changing today at a hyper accelerated pace. Back in the day 
> Motorola produced the 68000 CPU, it was used in all sorts of equipment from 
> Apple PC's to Okuma machine controls. I would guess that that CPU was still 
> being used to manufacture products 20 years after debut.

Micro controllers with Cortex-M* CPU is very common today and I guess it might 
be for a very long time.

> Today PC cpu and chip sets are what a 3-5 year life cycle before going OOP. 
> Same with many ARM CPU. Look at the Arduino and how many generations have 
> come down the road. Most new version have moved to 3.3V and are no longer 
> compatible with 5V shields.

This have been the case with Cortex-M* almost all the time, 2.7-3.6 volt is 
common though NXP make one 5 volt variant. I use one with external core voltage 
which is lower than supply voltage and guess a lower voltage is used 
internally. To use 5 volt for external IO and a lower voltage internally I 
would guess is a very idea since inside circuit the paths are very short 
compared to outside but I lack knowledge/experience with construction of 
integrated circuits.

I do not totally agree about life cycle, I have two computers in front of me 
which I used for quite many years despite buying the used and this never 
happended then I was younger. Clock frequency for laptops and ordinary 
stationary computers have not changed much at all the last ten years.



As far as I understand Linux real time is going forward and this might make 
running real time on other much simpler hardware less interesting even though 
an ordinary computer use both quite a lot of space and power compared because 
they are cheap and readily available.


Nicklas Karlsson


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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[John Dammeyer]

Lester,
I would never buy the far east solution myself.  My original point was that
building a dedicated box that does everything and doesn't use, as the OP
remarked, use old PC technology, isn't really an option when the price of
those systems is so low.

I still think the BBB with Replicape is a good choice even if I'm not using
mine yet.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Lester Caine [mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk]
> Sent: February-19-19 1:20 AM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for
> comments
> 
> On 18/02/2019 22:07, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > Then there is the Far East solutions like the one in this link.
> >  4Axis_60343603384.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.37.3701292eTmjk5
> p>
> 
> Just testing ... The problem I have with long links is that once
> thunderbird sees a quote it adds it's own '>' at the start and other
> clients do as well, so <> wrapper is simply a stupid choice.
> 
> Re the actual controller ... just what IS the capability of the unit.
> How does one connect to it and does it really come with an open end
> multicore cable for the pendent? On one hand these do look attractive,
> but much of the 'magic' in gcode is the facilities beyond the simple
> motion stuff and some indication on what it does support would help? The
> pictures at the top show two different products anyway.
> 
> The brick wall I'm currently hitting with my 3D printer is that the
> supplied controller does not support table levelling and hard wires the
> two z axis motors to one driver. Being able to play with levelling left
> to right other than yanking one leadscrew manually would be nice and I
> think the MachineKit based controller will do that AND allow setting up
> profiling the surface afterwards. Something that a 'packaged' solution
> from China has no provision for unless you replace the whole machine ...
> 
> --
> Lester Caine - G8HFL
> -
> Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk
> EnquirySolve - https://enquirysolve.com/
> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.co.uk
> Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 19 February 2019 04:20:28 Lester Caine wrote:

> On 18/02/2019 22:07, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > Then there is the Far East solutions like the one in this link.
> >  >Axis_60343603384.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.37.3701292eTmjk5p>
>
> Just testing ... The problem I have with long links is that once
> thunderbird sees a quote it adds it's own '>' at the start and other
> clients do as well, so <> wrapper is simply a stupid choice.
>
> Re the actual controller ... just what IS the capability of the unit.
> How does one connect to it and does it really come with an open end
> multicore cable for the pendent? On one hand these do look attractive,
> but much of the 'magic' in gcode is the facilities beyond the simple
> motion stuff and some indication on what it does support would help?
> The pictures at the top show two different products anyway.
>
> The brick wall I'm currently hitting with my 3D printer is that the
> supplied controller does not support table levelling and hard wires
> the two z axis motors to one driver. Being able to play with levelling
> left to right other than yanking one leadscrew manually would be nice
> and I think the MachineKit based controller will do that AND allow
> setting up profiling the surface afterwards. Something that a
> 'packaged' solution from China has no provision for unless you replace
> the whole machine ...

This 6040 has no bed leveling facilities. 3 small nema 23 motors but 
capable of over 100 ipm rapids once given decent drivers. As shipped, it 
was set to cook the A motor as its the smallest length of the lot. Also 
very tight screws, backlash under a thou. Level to bed?, I haven't 
checked yet, and the bed is extruded stuff. I'll check that when the 
renishaw clone gets here. Thats something lcnc can attempt to correct 
with comp files, I'm doing it on the Sheldon to comp for bed wear. No 
reason it can't be done, but take any twist out with its adjustable feet 
first. I may not be impressed with it electrically, but mechanically it 
seems plenty solid enough for 3d carving alu. In fact, I have a 1' x 2' 
sheet of 1/2" alu, some of which will be used for a new apron on the 
Sheldon as I made that one out of scrap from an Ampex VR-1200 deck, 
filling holes etc, and I need to move the Z nut to the right as much as 
theres room to move it, as I'm crushing the left Z bellows when Z is at 
the backing plate faces, which in turn is lifting the carriage a thou or 
so up the v-way. In retrospect, I should have ordered a 50mm longer 
1500mm Z screw, and moved its anchoring point to a built up on the left 
face of the headstock casting. But whats done is done, and its turning 
within a thou over the range it can hold between centers and grind now. 
Plenty good enough for the girls I go with. :)

As for levelling the bed on this 6040, installing a full sized spoil 
board and shaving it flat is probably the best that could be done. Then 
how do you clamp stuff without access to the T slots?

Doubtfull I'd ever waste that much plywood in one whack though. Shaving 
the bed itself flat would be a tool killer with all that anodizing to 
remove. My budget certainly doesn't include that.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Easy use of a 2 line URL [Was: Re: DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 18 February 2019 23:57:28 Erik Christiansen wrote:

> On 18.02.19 22:47, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Already set true here Erik. Next? ;-)
>
> And it didn't take the lumpy URL when pasted whack in the middle of
> the screen? (Dunno that I have any other magic settings. That one
> works here.)
>
> Erik
>
Didn't try it there. Into the address box, it failed. Anyplace it took 
the paste, it did a google search, and failed.
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] DIY CNC builder dilemma, open request for comments

[Lester Caine]

On 18/02/2019 22:07, John Dammeyer wrote:

Then there is the Far East solutions like the one in this link.



Just testing ... The problem I have with long links is that once 
thunderbird sees a quote it adds it's own '>' at the start and other 
clients do as well, so <> wrapper is simply a stupid choice.


Re the actual controller ... just what IS the capability of the unit. 
How does one connect to it and does it really come with an open end 
multicore cable for the pendent? On one hand these do look attractive, 
but much of the 'magic' in gcode is the facilities beyond the simple 
motion stuff and some indication on what it does support would help? The 
pictures at the top show two different products anyway.


The brick wall I'm currently hitting with my 3D printer is that the 
supplied controller does not support table levelling and hard wires the 
two z axis motors to one driver. Being able to play with levelling left 
to right other than yanking one leadscrew manually would be nice and I 
think the MachineKit based controller will do that AND allow setting up 
profiling the surface afterwards. Something that a 'packaged' solution 
from China has no provision for unless you replace the whole machine ...


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - https://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk


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