Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on modern hardware

[Phill Carter]

> On 20 Apr 2020, at 12:30 pm, Chris Albertson  
> wrote:
> 
> What we have with LinuxCNC is "legacy software".The hardware hardly
> matters.This software was designed before the modern era, before
> computing power was nearly free, back when you really needed a PC just to
> make a few motors move. The problem with LinuxCNC is that it requires a
> special OS and very complex configuration.  These two things will forever
> keep it from being manstream.
> 
> No one is motivated to do a clean re-start because the current software
> works well enough.

And it seems least of all the folk who continually complain about it.

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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on modern hardware

[Chris Albertson]

What we have with LinuxCNC is "legacy software".The hardware hardly
matters.This software was designed before the modern era, before
computing power was nearly free, back when you really needed a PC just to
make a few motors move. The problem with LinuxCNC is that it requires a
special OS and very complex configuration.  These two things will forever
keep it from being manstream.

No one is motivated to do a clean re-start because the current software
works well enough.

On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 6:31 PM Rafael Skodlar  wrote:

> On 2020-04-19 17:46, Bari wrote:
> > The bottleneck with CNC machines is not Linuxcnc, it's the mechanical
> > hardware and materials. All modern CNC machines may easily be controlled
> > by LinuxCNC on older hardware. What we really need is new tech and
> > materials that are cost effective to use to make end products and be
> > machine faster and easier.
> >
>
> Why the hell you keep promoting this OLD CRAP??? That's because you
> never read or watch about anything worthwhile!
>
> "All modern CNC machines may easily be controlled by LinuxCNC on older
> hardware"  What a load of crap is that? With that kind of thinking no
> wonder US never adopted metric system and have to use Soviet era
> technology to send American astronauts to space from Russia.
>
> > An armchair project manager like yourself could easily spend some time
> > learning about physics, mechanical engineering and materials science to
> > provide us with your "insight" to accomplish this.
> >
>
> Here you go again genius/scientist/machinist and spokesperson for
> LinuxCNC and CNC industry in general! No arguments just personal
> attacks! So typical for your kind. How many patents are there under your
> name?
>
> Just the fact that you are top posting and hide behind incomplete name
> tell it all!
>
> --
> Rafael Skodlar
>
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on modern hardware

[Bari]

The fact is that "this OLD CRAP" works, just like the crappy old "Soviet 
era technology to send American astronauts to space from Russia".


On 4/19/20 8:28 PM, Rafael Skodlar wrote:

On 2020-04-19 17:46, Bari wrote:
The bottleneck with CNC machines is not Linuxcnc, it's the mechanical 
hardware and materials. All modern CNC machines may easily be 
controlled by LinuxCNC on older hardware. What we really need is new 
tech and materials that are cost effective to use to make end 
products and be machine faster and easier.




Why the hell you keep promoting this OLD CRAP??? That's because you 
never read or watch about anything worthwhile!
Please tell us what to watch. Recently it's been a mix of German dramas, 
UK comedies, US science fiction and any show that revolves around a Tiki 
Bar.


"All modern CNC machines may easily be controlled by LinuxCNC on older 
hardware"  What a load of crap is that? With that kind of thinking no 
wonder US never adopted metric system and have to use Soviet era 
technology to send American astronauts to space from Russia.


An armchair project manager like yourself could easily spend some 
time learning about physics, mechanical engineering and materials 
science to provide us with your "insight" to accomplish this.




Here you go again genius/scientist/machinist and spokesperson for 
LinuxCNC and CNC industry in general! No arguments just personal 
attacks! So typical for your kind. How many patents are there under 
your name?

Arguing is a waste of time.

Patents are for the selfish and old capitalist systems.


Just the fact that you are top posting and hide behind incomplete name 
tell it all!



Nah, it's more like Prince or Madonna.



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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on modern hardware

[Rafael Skodlar]

On 2020-04-19 17:46, Bari wrote:
The bottleneck with CNC machines is not Linuxcnc, it's the mechanical 
hardware and materials. All modern CNC machines may easily be controlled 
by LinuxCNC on older hardware. What we really need is new tech and 
materials that are cost effective to use to make end products and be 
machine faster and easier.




Why the hell you keep promoting this OLD CRAP??? That's because you 
never read or watch about anything worthwhile!


"All modern CNC machines may easily be controlled by LinuxCNC on older 
hardware"  What a load of crap is that? With that kind of thinking no 
wonder US never adopted metric system and have to use Soviet era 
technology to send American astronauts to space from Russia.


An armchair project manager like yourself could easily spend some time 
learning about physics, mechanical engineering and materials science to 
provide us with your "insight" to accomplish this.




Here you go again genius/scientist/machinist and spokesperson for 
LinuxCNC and CNC industry in general! No arguments just personal 
attacks! So typical for your kind. How many patents are there under your 
name?


Just the fact that you are top posting and hide behind incomplete name 
tell it all!


--
Rafael Skodlar


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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on modern hardware

[Bari]

The bottleneck with CNC machines is not Linuxcnc, it's the mechanical 
hardware and materials. All modern CNC machines may easily be controlled 
by LinuxCNC on older hardware. What we really need is new tech and 
materials that are cost effective to use to make end products and be 
machine faster and easier.


An armchair project manager like yourself could easily spend some time 
learning about physics, mechanical engineering and materials science to 
provide us with your "insight" to accomplish this.



On 4/19/20 7:25 PM, Rafael Skodlar wrote:
I see this tread circling around the same issue as the one after I 
posted my comments on this subject matter when I was exploring 
possible options for new CNC machine.


On 2020-04-19 10:12, René Hopf via Emc-users wrote:

Hi,
For reasons I dont understand, many people prefer to use extremely 
legacy

hardware to run linuxcnc.
the hardware list in the wiki is extremely outdated, and there is no 
real

recommendation on what to buy currently.


Tell me about it. Threads in the past few months will tell you how 
much beating I was taking for bringing up related annoying issue with 
need for testing motherboards for suitability with RT kernel, etc.



just for fun I tried to run it on modern hardware, and it worked really
well.
I used a Pentium Gold G5400 on a rog strix h370 mainboard(dual 
ethernet),

booting from nvme.
64 bit, and efi boot, you cant legacy boot from nvme.
I tried the 4.19 and 5.4.19 rt preempt kernel from the debian repo.
both get extremely good latency of 1500-1 ns, depending on bios
settings and kernel args.
but even the defaults are fine.
I tried on a few other non-legacy PCs, and could not find a single 
one that

doesnt work well with rt preempt.


That's great. Trouble is not everybody can afford or have means to 
test different platforms these days when you need to buy most of this 
stuff from the Internet.


HW architecture needs to be taken into consideration in any case. What 
good is it to run LinuxCNC on multi-CPU and multi-core boards when 
only a fraction of it is actually used for CNC functionality?


Mix of GUI and RT on the same SBC is just not a good idea. Yet, some 
will argue about it again and again.


Those who want to use old junk just use old junk. I'm sure that this 
kind of messages or threads turn potential manufacturers, small or 
large (?), away from LinuxCNC.




imho rt preempt is the future, as it is maintained, and you can get 
modern

kernels with it.

just trying to kill the rumor that linuxcnc doesnt work on new PCs.

Rene


Thanks,




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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on modern hardware

[Sync]

On 20.04.20 01:10, N wrote:
> ? Don't have to, if computer break down I get a new one. Throw away two 
> broken monitors a while ago and a broken computer a few years ago but mostly 
> they work fine. Other parts may however be a problem.

Correct, a new one is ... new. Which means it uses currently available
parts.


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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on modern hardware

[Rafael Skodlar]

I see this tread circling around the same issue as the one after I 
posted my comments on this subject matter when I was exploring possible 
options for new CNC machine.


On 2020-04-19 10:12, René Hopf via Emc-users wrote:

Hi,
For reasons I dont understand, many people prefer to use extremely legacy
hardware to run linuxcnc.
the hardware list in the wiki is extremely outdated, and there is no real
recommendation on what to buy currently.


Tell me about it. Threads in the past few months will tell you how much 
beating I was taking for bringing up related annoying issue with need 
for testing motherboards for suitability with RT kernel, etc.



just for fun I tried to run it on modern hardware, and it worked really
well.
I used a Pentium Gold G5400 on a rog strix h370 mainboard(dual ethernet),
booting from nvme.
64 bit, and efi boot, you cant legacy boot from nvme.
I tried the 4.19 and 5.4.19 rt preempt kernel from the debian repo.
both get extremely good latency of 1500-1 ns, depending on bios
settings and kernel args.
but even the defaults are fine.
I tried on a few other non-legacy PCs, and could not find a single one that
doesnt work well with rt preempt.


That's great. Trouble is not everybody can afford or have means to test 
different platforms these days when you need to buy most of this stuff 
from the Internet.


HW architecture needs to be taken into consideration in any case. What 
good is it to run LinuxCNC on multi-CPU and multi-core boards when only 
a fraction of it is actually used for CNC functionality?


Mix of GUI and RT on the same SBC is just not a good idea. Yet, some 
will argue about it again and again.


Those who want to use old junk just use old junk. I'm sure that this 
kind of messages or threads turn potential manufacturers, small or large 
(?), away from LinuxCNC.




imho rt preempt is the future, as it is maintained, and you can get modern
kernels with it.

just trying to kill the rumor that linuxcnc doesnt work on new PCs.

Rene


Thanks,

--
Rafael


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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on modern hardware

[John Dammeyer]

This problem of old or new hardware isn't unique to LinuxCNC PCs.  This small 
$10 moisture sensor for a Maytag Combo Washer/Dryer has been discontinued.  I'm 
waiting for the epoxy to dry but ultimately if I can't remanufacture it with 
glue or 3D printing then we're out $1K for a new machine.
 
How is this relevant?  I'm finding the older PCs have hardware that is no 
longer supported by the newer software.  It's been that way for quite some 
time.  The developers upgrade to 4 core processors and OS support while end 
users are still using single core.  An upgrade suddenly takes the old existing 
system to its knees.
 
I'm of the line of thought that when you buy, you buy the most modern and 
highest end unit you can find.  Odds are it will remain supported for much 
longer than the old stuff.  In effect that tiny software change is the $10 part 
that prevents that old system from running.
 
John
https://cdn.appliancepartspros.com/images/product/cache/whirlpool-sensor-tub-304997-ap4037380_01_l.jpg
 
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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on modern hardware

[N]

> On 19.04.20 20:05, N wrote:
> > Plenty available cheap and no reason to user newer.
> 
> I cannot order legacy parts through my local parts distributor.

? Don't have to, if computer break down I get a new one. Throw away two broken 
monitors a while ago and a broken computer a few years ago but mostly they work 
fine. Other parts may however be a problem.


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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on modern hardware

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 19 April 2020 16:02:32 Ed wrote:

> On 4/19/20 2:35 PM, mar...@r-bechtold.de wrote:
> > it is impossible to get that old hardware outside of a junkyard.
> > Even cheap Hardware from resellers are minimum an I5 5gen for 200$
> > max.
> >
> > this Machines are working fine with Preempt rt and latency in the
> > range of 1500-24000ns with no modifications
> >
> > i think drop support for Computer Museum Hardware will free
> > Developer time and motivate new developer to develop new features
> > and not just tackling weird hardware problems with hardware you can
> > not buy new to test.
> >
> > markus
>
> I follow this philosophy. ^^^
>
> Until a couple months ago I had a machine running on Ubuntu 6.06 and
> whatever LCNC version it was. When the hardware died it got Ver
> 2.7.something and an 8 year old PC and keeps on going. Just make sure
> you have a good backup of your latest. If it works use it.
>

This works ok until you need to run some old code that you coded around a 
bug in 13 years ago, and because that bug has since been fixed, this 
time it kills the shop cat.  This is a moderately strong argument in 
favor of keeping both your hardware and your software, up the what you 
can currently buy.  Besides that. it may have been an excellent cat, 
fully aware of the employee manual.

Reminds me of something from about 18-22 years back at our transmitter 
site, I'd put a calico kitten up on the hill for a mouser a decade 
prior, and I was discussing something I wanted done with an employee at 
the time when a mouse went running across the floor, interrupting our 
train of thought, the cat was half asleep on a pillow on an early 
american poverty couch. I pointed at the cat and said "you're fired", 
then I got in the pickup and headed back down the hill toward the studio 
16 miles north.  When I arrived, one of the first phone calls was from 
that employee, laughing his self silly.  Seems I hadn't gotten much more 
than turned around in the drive when that cat jumped off the couch, ran 
into the room the mouse had disappeared into, and came back out with 
that mouse in its mouth, brought it to Jim and stood there as if asking 
if it could have its job back!  Moral, do not disturb a valued employee, 
even if they are working for a daily bowl of Meow Mix.

> Ed.
>
>
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on modern hardware

[Ed]

On 4/19/20 2:35 PM, mar...@r-bechtold.de wrote:

it is impossible to get that old hardware outside of a junkyard.
Even cheap Hardware from resellers are minimum an I5 5gen for 200$ max.

this Machines are working fine with Preempt rt and latency in the range of 
1500-24000ns with no modifications

i think drop support for Computer Museum Hardware will free Developer time and 
motivate new developer to develop new features and not just tackling weird 
hardware problems with hardware you can not buy new to test.

markus




I follow this philosophy. ^^^

Until a couple months ago I had a machine running on Ubuntu 6.06 and 
whatever LCNC version it was. When the hardware died it got Ver 
2.7.something and an 8 year old PC and keeps on going. Just make sure 
you have a good backup of your latest. If it works use it.



Ed.




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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on modern hardware

[mar...@r-bechtold.de]

For The Pi it is technically impossible to do Realtime. The Pi thinks it dose 
Realtime but the arm core have no acces to any IO. its all handled by the Vcode 
and nobody know what the vcode is doing.


Markus


> Am 19.04.2020 um 21:15 schrieb Bari :
> 
> It tried to run the BBB with LinuxCNC back in 2013 and the video performance 
> was too poor. Frame rate was way too slow. We had better success with a 4-8 
> core Allwinner SOC and FPGA.
> 
> I tried the Rpi4 last summer and the 4K video was way too unstable. Plus I 
> need two 4K screens to run the resin printers. 10 year old AMD boards do a 
> better job. So we still use new AMD x86 to run them.
> 
> I might trust a small 3-axis router to a Rpi4 and get LCNC working with 
> Gentoo:
> 
> https://github.com/sakaki-/gentoo-on-rpi-64bit
> 
> 
> On 4/19/20 1:47 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
>> As for new hardware, people seem to like to run Machine Kit on the Beagle
>> Bone Black (aka "BBB").   Its a tiny credit card size computer that can run
>> Linux.I think the BBB is actually more powerful than those old PCs and
>> it can run off a phone charger.
>> 
>> If you want to run LinxCNC on "modern" hardware it would not be a PC class
>> compter.  That is just total overkill.  The Raspberry Pi or the like is all
>> that is needed now.
>> 
>> On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 11:08 AM N  wrote:
>> 
 Hi,
 For reasons I dont understand, many people prefer to use extremely legacy
 hardware to run linuxcnc.
>>> Plenty available cheap and no reason to user newer.
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on modern hardware

[mar...@r-bechtold.de]

it is impossible to get that old hardware outside of a junkyard.
Even cheap Hardware from resellers are minimum an I5 5gen for 200$ max.

this Machines are working fine with Preempt rt and latency in the range of 
1500-24000ns with no modifications 

i think drop support for Computer Museum Hardware will free Developer time and 
motivate new developer to develop new features and not just tackling weird 
hardware problems with hardware you can not buy new to test.

markus

> Am 19.04.2020 um 20:05 schrieb N :
> 
>> Hi,
>> For reasons I dont understand, many people prefer to use extremely legacy
>> hardware to run linuxcnc.
> 
> Plenty available cheap and no reason to user newer.
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on modern hardware

[Bari]

It tried to run the BBB with LinuxCNC back in 2013 and the video 
performance was too poor. Frame rate was way too slow. We had better 
success with a 4-8 core Allwinner SOC and FPGA.


I tried the Rpi4 last summer and the 4K video was way too unstable. Plus 
I need two 4K screens to run the resin printers. 10 year old AMD boards 
do a better job. So we still use new AMD x86 to run them.


I might trust a small 3-axis router to a Rpi4 and get LCNC working with 
Gentoo:


https://github.com/sakaki-/gentoo-on-rpi-64bit


On 4/19/20 1:47 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

As for new hardware, people seem to like to run Machine Kit on the Beagle
Bone Black (aka "BBB").   Its a tiny credit card size computer that can run
Linux.I think the BBB is actually more powerful than those old PCs and
it can run off a phone charger.

If you want to run LinxCNC on "modern" hardware it would not be a PC class
compter.  That is just total overkill.  The Raspberry Pi or the like is all
that is needed now.

On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 11:08 AM N  wrote:


Hi,
For reasons I dont understand, many people prefer to use extremely legacy
hardware to run linuxcnc.

Plenty available cheap and no reason to user newer.


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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on modern hardware

[Sync]

On 19.04.20 20:05, N wrote:
> Plenty available cheap and no reason to user newer.

I cannot order legacy parts through my local parts distributor.

Lots of reasons to use new hardware, NVMe is one of them.


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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on modern hardware

[Dave Matthews]

It was free from when we cleaned out the FIL's place.  The one before
that was in the heap of rubble of retired computers.  No reason to buy
new to run a router.

Dave

On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 2:08 PM N  wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > For reasons I dont understand, many people prefer to use extremely legacy
> > hardware to run linuxcnc.
>
> Plenty available cheap and no reason to user newer.
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on modern hardware

[Chris Albertson]

As for new hardware, people seem to like to run Machine Kit on the Beagle
Bone Black (aka "BBB").   Its a tiny credit card size computer that can run
Linux.I think the BBB is actually more powerful than those old PCs and
it can run off a phone charger.

If you want to run LinxCNC on "modern" hardware it would not be a PC class
compter.  That is just total overkill.  The Raspberry Pi or the like is all
that is needed now.

On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 11:08 AM N  wrote:

> > Hi,
> > For reasons I dont understand, many people prefer to use extremely legacy
> > hardware to run linuxcnc.
>
> Plenty available cheap and no reason to user newer.
>
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on modern hardware

[N]

> Hi,
> For reasons I dont understand, many people prefer to use extremely legacy
> hardware to run linuxcnc.

Plenty available cheap and no reason to user newer.


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[Emc-users] linuxcnc on modern hardware

[René Hopf via Emc-users]

Hi,
For reasons I dont understand, many people prefer to use extremely legacy
hardware to run linuxcnc.
the hardware list in the wiki is extremely outdated, and there is no real
recommendation on what to buy currently.
just for fun I tried to run it on modern hardware, and it worked really
well.
I used a Pentium Gold G5400 on a rog strix h370 mainboard(dual ethernet),
booting from nvme.
64 bit, and efi boot, you cant legacy boot from nvme.
I tried the 4.19 and 5.4.19 rt preempt kernel from the debian repo.
both get extremely good latency of 1500-1 ns, depending on bios
settings and kernel args.
but even the defaults are fine.
I tried on a few other non-legacy PCs, and could not find a single one that
doesnt work well with rt preempt.

imho rt preempt is the future, as it is maintained, and you can get modern
kernels with it.

just trying to kill the rumor that linuxcnc doesnt work on new PCs.

Rene

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