Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On Tuesday 05 June 2012 09:08:34 Joachim Franek wrote: My suggestion is to use a pcb board mechanically attached to the extruder with a cpu and eth/rs232. I have played with a FTDI 4232 mini modul. With libmpsse-1.1 I see spi clk and data changing with a write command. With libftdi-0.20 (/exmples/bitbang) I see some level changes on the scope. So there is also a usb version possible. Cheers, Joachim -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On 4 June 2012 19:18, Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com wrote: Makes sense. Thermocouples are the standard on all of the commercial plastic extruders I have worked on. By the time you do linearization of a TC and cold junction compensation, you might was well buy a cheap PID controller As an alternative (though probably more expensive than most home FDN-ers would like to pay) is this $20 chip which does all the work then talks SPI. http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/temperature-sensor/6987118/ LinuxCNC can talk SPI through Mesa cards. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
what's that smell? sniff sniff. smells like something taxable. --- On Tue, 6/5/12, Jack Coats j...@coats.org wrote: From: Jack Coats j...@coats.org Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods? To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Date: Tuesday, June 5, 2012, 10:57 AM If you have a few minutes, this is a free assessment from the US Government for evaluating intellectual property. http://www.uspto.gov/inventors/assessment/index.html ... Jack Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart... Colossians 3:23 You don't manage people; you manage things. You lead people. — Admiral Grace Hopper, USN If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate - Henry J. Tillman Anyone who has never made a mistake, has never tried anything new. - Albert Einstein -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, andy pugh wrote: Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 11:01:46 +0100 From: andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com Reply-To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods? On 4 June 2012 19:18, Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com wrote: Makes sense. ?Thermocouples are the standard on all of the commercial plastic extruders I have worked on. By the time you do linearization of a TC and cold junction compensation, you might was well buy a cheap PID controller As an alternative (though probably more expensive than most home FDN-ers would like to pay) is this $20 chip which does all the work then talks SPI. http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/temperature-sensor/6987118/ LinuxCNC can talk SPI through Mesa cards. The temperture control is slow enough that parallel port bit banging would be fine for a SPI interface (I think the other Wallace has a comp for this) -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics-- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
what are 'FDN-ers'? --- On Wed, 6/6/12, Peter C. Wallace p...@mesanet.com wrote: From: Peter C. Wallace p...@mesanet.com Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods? To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Date: Wednesday, June 6, 2012, 5:51 AM On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, andy pugh wrote: Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 11:01:46 +0100 From: andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com Reply-To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods? On 4 June 2012 19:18, Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com wrote: Makes sense. Thermocouples are the standard on all of the commercial plastic extruders I have worked on. By the time you do linearization of a TC and cold junction compensation, you might was well buy a cheap PID controller As an alternative (though probably more expensive than most home FDN-ers would like to pay) is this $20 chip which does all the work then talks SPI. http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/temperature-sensor/6987118/ LinuxCNC can talk SPI through Mesa cards. The temperture control is slow enough that parallel port bit banging would be fine for a SPI interface (I think the other Wallace has a comp for this) -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics -Inline Attachment Follows- -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On 6 June 2012 14:21, charles green xxzzb...@yahoo.com wrote: what are 'FDN-ers'? I can't type. FDM builders was what I was trying to convey. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On 6/6/2012 6:01 AM, andy pugh wrote: On 4 June 2012 19:18, Davee...@dc9.tzo.com wrote: Makes sense. Thermocouples are the standard on all of the commercial plastic extruders I have worked on. By the time you do linearization of a TC and cold junction compensation, you might was well buy a cheap PID controller As an alternative (though probably more expensive than most home FDN-ers would like to pay) is this $20 chip which does all the work then talks SPI. http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/temperature-sensor/6987118/ LinuxCNC can talk SPI through Mesa cards. Still, that seems like a lot considering I can buy something like this (and this is not the cheapest available) for $60 complete with a display and Modbus interface. http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Process_Control_-a-_Measurement/Temperature_-z-_Process_Controllers/1-z-16_DIN_Size_%28SL4848_Series%29/SL4848-CV I found some links to Chinese suppliers who have controllers closer to $30, but of course you have to ship them from China. Doing effective analog temp control on the cheap (actually dirt cheap level) is difficult when dealing with higher temperatures. Dave -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On 6 June 2012 14:40, Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com wrote: Still, that seems like a lot considering I can buy something like this Is there even really any need for PC control of the setpoint? If you can let the hardware control the temperature then things like http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/180830006347 for about $12 delivered would work. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On Tuesday 05 June 2012 02:28:48 Jeshua Lacock wrote: Personally what I would like to see is: • Compatible with existing popular slicing software, filtering with a script is acceptable (but of course not ideal), for instance using the python script at: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5233 Yes, but in the long run the scripts functionality is integrated into the slicing software. • Compatible with off the shelf components such as MakerBots newest extruder the MK7: My setup for 3mm wire is similar: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18713924/IMG_3032.JPG You see the stepper and the driver board connected to the parallel port. Notice the changed position of the temperature sensor near to the nozzle. This effects measurement accuracy. The motor axis has a second axis end for mounting a encoder (not visible). The flat front face is for a cpu-cooler (maybe with a peltier in between). I am wondering this reprap wire feeders are running without any monitoring: my suggestion is a encoder driven by the wire. My summary of electronics needed: • Stepper driver (nothing to do, use lcnc usual parts, movement is lcnc driven!) • Encoder interface (maybe 2x, nothing to do) • 3x temperatur measurement, 12bit resolution (2x nozzle, 1x feader housing) • 3x pwm (nozzle, peltier, fan) My suggestion: something like pmod's: http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Catalog.cfm?NavPath=2,401Cat=9 and a avr/arm board with eth. You use what you need (price/accuracy). For cheap temperature measurement with 1n4148 up to 400 °C see Bild2 from: http://thomaspfeifer.net/laminator_temperatur_regelung.htm • And their controller card. If we could eliminate the card with standard CNC hardware, that works too. But this card looks like it essentially just controls the power of the extruder heater. http://store.makerbot.com/extruder-controller-v3-6.html This controller does not fullfill all my requierements. But have thermocouple support. But this is only an advantage, if you use a better ad converter. Note the CNC conversion at: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5233 I am working on a very similar setup. Have you seen a extruder with MK2-M10 taper? And the electronic board has 2 connectors: power and eth. Easy to change. I am not sure how the slicing software handles the extruder stepper motor, but I would guess it is with G Code. http://www.reprap.org/wiki/EmcRepStrap My suggestion: we change the postprocessor of the slicing software to fit lcnc gcode requirements. • Multiple extruder support would be great too, either for increased print speeds and/or different material. That of course can come later. You can use multiple boards of the above described type or use more pmod's. My suggestion is to use a pcb board mechanically attached to the extruder with a cpu and eth/rs232. Alternatives to avr based boards are: - Raspberry Pi - OLINUXINO (https://github.com/OLIMEX/OLINUXINO from http://www.olimex.com/dev/index.html) - ? Cpu power is sufficient to run termperature controll. Cheers, Joachim -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
Hi Joachim, On 05.06.12 09:08, Joachim Franek wrote: • 3x temperatur measurement, 12bit resolution (2x nozzle, 1x feader housing) Is the high resolution needed because the PID temperature controller needs something like ten times the resolution the control loop is intended to achieve, much like a machine axis? (Giving something like 9 bits, or +-0.6 °C at 300 °C, IIUC.) ... For cheap temperature measurement with 1n4148 up to 400 °C see Bild2 from: http://thomaspfeifer.net/laminator_temperatur_regelung.htm Well, for a quite limited time. Yes, the predictable 2 mv/°C temperature coefficient of a silicon diode's forward drop is a useful sensor for temperature measurement. If 10 mv/°C is desired, then we can wire 5 of them in series, in lieu of adding an op-amp. But they're typically only rated to 175 °C Absolute Maximum, and suffer shortened life even at that temperature. The Arrhenius equation predicts the accelerated ageing which is observed, and it amounts to a halving of lifetime for each 10 °C rise in temperature. Already at 175 °C, the diode will last 1/32768 (.3) of the life at 25 °C. I'm curious to hear how long the diode lasts in practice at 400 °C. Dopant rediffusion would be erasing the diode junction at a goodly rate, I fear. Erik -- A friend is a person who knows all about you but likes you just the same. - W.G.P -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On Tuesday 05 June 2012 09:08:34 Joachim Franek wrote: Alternatives to avr based boards are: - Raspberry Pi I have in the moment a rpi board from a fried in my hands and have seen it booting to a command login. Looking to http://elinux.org/Rpi_Low-level_peripherals I think there are for a extruder control: - spi or i2c (for a ad converter) - 8 pins (for pwm) see for details: http://elinux.org/RPi_BCM2835_GPIOs Driver for spi and i2c: http://www.bootc.net/archives/2012/05/19/i2c-and-the-raspberry-pi/ Some source code is on the page to drive the pins. Summary: It seems to me an overshoot to use so many cpu power for such a simple task, but the board is cheap and has a camera interface. Cheers, Joachim -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
I forgot: http://elinux.org/RPi_Expansion_Boards Maybe this is a stating point: http://zuzebox.wordpress.com/2012/03/14/userport-for-raspberry-pi-v0-10/ Cheers, Joachim -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 2:08 AM, Joachim Franek joachim.fra...@pibf.dewrote: I am not sure how the slicing software handles the extruder stepper motor, but I would guess it is with G Code. http://www.reprap.org/wiki/EmcRepStrap My suggestion: we change the postprocessor of the slicing software to fit lcnc gcode requirements. Both popular slicing programs (skeinforge and slic3r) treat the extruder as an axis called 'E'. This conflicts with LinuxCNC, but is easy to fix. Each program has an option to rename the axis before the file is output. In other words, I just have the extruder set up as the 'A' axis. The slicing software produces G-code with coordinated moves. Aside from calibrating the A axis to move 1mm of filament for 1degree of axis movement, I've never had to bother with it. Alex -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
There is a big difference between what is legal, what you can get away with, and what actually occurs. If you copy a patented device and use it in your garage for your own use (not making any sales with it), no one is going to come after you if no one knows it exists. Even if the company who owns the patent knows that you have replicated their device, what would there motivation be in coming after you? If there is no motivation, they likely will not come after you, since exercising the legal system requires money. If you are making widgets via the patented method and selling them or selling the patented machine, and infringing on the patent holders sales, then there is a very good chance they will come after you. While the law might be black and white, how it impacts situations is entirely different. There is the right vs wrong according to the law. Then there is what actually happens and that is more determined by money than anything else. I have a legitimate legal case against a guy right now. I should be able to sue him for $10K and win easily, but it would cost me about $10K to do it and then there is the question about collecting any judgment. So it is not going to happen even though I have suffered damages. I am better off eating the damages and paying to correct the damages myself. While that might seem wrong, that is the way the system works. If you write software or make things there is a good chance you have or will infringe on someones patent unknowingly. If that happens and the patent holder finds out and wants to stop you, you might get a cease and desist letter which is pretty cheap to produce. If you continue on and the patent holder wants to stop you, everything gets much more expensive for the patent holder at that point.There is no patent police who enforce patent law without charge. If you can't afford to enforce a patent, then IMO, a patent is pretty useless and can even be damaging.Since when a patent is filed, you have to disclose the invention and it is made public, which makes copying the device or process a lot easier. Oftentimes you are better off not patenting something, and simply using that invention for your own purposes as the knowledge will not become public via the patent system. I once invented a patentable control scheme for a machine that was unique and allowed us to make the machine at a lower cost than the competitors. These are low volume machines - worldwide perhaps 100 are sold annually. We talked about patenting the idea but after a lot of thought we decided not to since the competition was far behind us in their methods of control and we knew that if we patented the idea, they would become aware of it (or at least it was much more likely). So we never patented the idea. That was about 10 years ago and the competition has never figured it out, as they were apparently too busy struggling with the economy, and being bought up and sold off.The concepts are very simple and common in the electronics world but not understood in this machine industry. The implementation of the idea is not even hidden on the machine, it is right out in the open and visible on the machine, but a layman would never recognize how it works, so the secret has been safe for about 10 years now. The same concept is utilized in 4 places on a typical machine, is much more reliable than the alternatives, and it saves about $4-5,000 per machine, maybe slighty more. So in this case not patenting the idea was obviously the right approach. Dave On 6/4/2012 10:03 PM, Kenneth Lerman wrote: On 06/04/2012 08:31 PM, Jeshua Lacock wrote: On Jun 4, 2012, at 5:41 PM, dave wrote: It has always been my understanding that you can make a patented device; you just can't sell it. I don't think this precludes using that patented device to make things which you sell. IANAL and I don't play one on TV. It is my understanding that in the US, you may NOT use a process or make a patented device without a license. It does not matter whether you sell it or not. At one point there was a patent for deactivating hydrogen peroxide for cleaning contact lenses by means of a (very small) platinum catalyst. The cleaning kit included a license to use that process. You could not just do it yourself without the license. (Well, you could, but you would be infringing on the patent.) Ken Good point. Also, as far as I know, Makerbot et al have not had much of a legal battle so far. The only incidents I am aware of is a handful of big companies have sent them cease and desist letters for things online at thingverse that were essentially 3D scans of copyrighted geometry. Best, Jeshua Lacock Founder/Engineer 3DTOPO Incorporated http://3DTOPO.com Phone: 208.462.4171 -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
If you have a few minutes, this is a free assessment from the US Government for evaluating intellectual property. http://www.uspto.gov/inventors/assessment/index.html ... Jack Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart... Colossians 3:23 You don't manage people; you manage things. You lead people. — Admiral Grace Hopper, USN If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate - Henry J. Tillman Anyone who has never made a mistake, has never tried anything new. - Albert Einstein -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On Sun, 2012-06-03 at 21:08 -0400, Dave wrote: buy one or two PID controllers. The slicing software can produce different extrusion temperatures for different layers (or classes of layers), so the printer needs programmatic control over *everything*. You may as well integrate all that in LinuxCNC, where it belongs. The thermal time constants of small extruders seem to be on the order of tens of seconds, while my hunk o' steel requires minutes. The whole extrusion process is strongly nonlinear along many axes, which is something that's becoming more difficult to ignore as extrusion speeds increase. With XY speeds under about 30 mm/s, the linear assumptions work reasonably well. Moving faster than that shows the limits: oozing from a stopped extruder, nonlinear flow-vs-pressure, nonlinear flow-vs-acceleration, and (for my printer) unstable mechanical construction. The threshold obviously varies with printer design implementation, but the high end of of DIY 3D printing has now collided with the low end of CNC machine control. The limits of the Arduino-class controller programming model are becoming apparent (at least to me, anyhow). LinuxCNC could implement a complex extruder model as a HAL component, with inputs from temperature sensors and motion control, far better than an Arduino-based controller. Handling multiple extruders with different material properties would be relatively straightforward in HAL. Doing all the soon-to-be-required toolchanging, height probing, and platform leveling in HAL / Classic Ladder makes a lot of sense (again, at least to me). Methinks anyone working on such a contraption would receive a visit from a nattily attired lawyer who would explain his employer's view of the US patent system... -- Ed http://softsolder.com -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On 6/4/2012 7:20 AM, Ed Nisley wrote: Methinks anyone working on such a contraption would receive a visit from a nattily attired lawyer who would explain his employer's view of the US patent system... Who hold the patents? Dave -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On 6/4/2012 7:20 AM, Ed Nisley wrote: The slicing software can produce different extrusion temperatures for different layers (or classes of layers), so the printer needs programmatic control over*everything*. I did not know that. Some PID controllers (maybe some cheap ones??) have Modbus interfaces which could be tied into Classic Ladder so you could change setpoints on the fly. The I/O is the price issue for analog control. If you do thermocouples, you need cold junction compensation which adds to the complexity. RTDs don't need that but they are a lot more expensive. I believe that normal thermistors (RTDs are part of the same family-but much more linear over a temp range) tend to be non linear. If anyone has a cheap way to do effective - accurate temperature measurement - on the cheap, I'd like to know about it. :-) Dave -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 8:52 AM, Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com wrote: If anyone has a cheap way to do effective - accurate temperature measurement - on the cheap, I'd like to know about it. :-) cheap=thermistors. Who cares they are non-linear if you're using a digital controller? ;) Linearize them in the controller. We use a $0.10 thermistor in production that we can easily get to within +-1C from -40C to +80C using a processor (thats the range we're after). The beta tolerance of the thermistor at the ends is a bigger factor than the linearization table/equation. Obviously an extruder will need a higher temp but that just requires changing the biasing resistor. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On Mon, 2012-06-04 at 08:44 -0400, Dave wrote: Who hold the patents? The big players that have been doing 3D extrusion since the mid 80s, the ones with positive cash flow and actual engineering teams. The Wikipedia article has a list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_printing#Industrial_uses Although the earliest patents have expired, a guy at the presentation I gave to the local ACM chapter mentioned that the reason none of the DIY printers have an enclosed, temperature-controlled build chamber is because whoever (Stratasys or 3DS, I don't recall) holds *that* patent and licenses it with some vigor. I can't cite the number, though, so the story may be n-th hand hearsay. To a good first approximation, machine-shop 3D printing technology is a solved problem at industrial scale (the nanoscale stuff seems blue-sky handwaving). DIY printers started about 25 years behind the state of the art and now lags by just under one patent lifetime, where it's likely to stay. Basement-shop DIY is one thing, building a business around that tech is entirely another matter. None of the DIY players amount to pocket lint in the major league. I expect Makerbot's recent 10 megabuck infusion triggered some talks that circumscribe their enthusiasm, but I have no actual data. That said, I'd love to do a LinuxCNC-based printer, starting with extruder modeling. So many projects, so little time... [grin] -- Ed http://softsolder.com -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On Jun 4, 2012, at 7:14 AM, Stephen Dubovsky wrote: On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 8:52 AM, Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com wrote: If anyone has a cheap way to do effective - accurate temperature measurement - on the cheap, I'd like to know about it. :-) cheap=thermistors. Who cares they are non-linear if you're using a digital controller? ;) Linearize them in the controller. We use a $0.10 thermistor in production that we can easily get to within +-1C from -40C to +80C using a processor (thats the range we're after). The beta tolerance of the thermistor at the ends is a bigger factor than the linearization table/equation. Obviously an extruder will need a higher temp but that just requires changing the biasing resistor. This is just what I read on the MakerBot website, but they claim that thermocouples are really required above 150C - which is the temperature range being using. Best, Jeshua Lacock Founder/Engineer 3DTOPO Incorporated http://3DTOPO.com Phone: 208.462.4171 -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On 6/4/2012 1:51 PM, Jeshua Lacock wrote: On Jun 4, 2012, at 7:14 AM, Stephen Dubovsky wrote: On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 8:52 AM, Davee...@dc9.tzo.com wrote: If anyone has a cheap way to do effective - accurate temperature measurement - on the cheap, I'd like to know about it. :-) cheap=thermistors. Who cares they are non-linear if you're using a digital controller? ;) Linearize them in the controller. We use a $0.10 thermistor in production that we can easily get to within +-1C from -40C to +80C using a processor (thats the range we're after). The beta tolerance of the thermistor at the ends is a bigger factor than the linearization table/equation. Obviously an extruder will need a higher temp but that just requires changing the biasing resistor. This is just what I read on the MakerBot website, but they claim that thermocouples are really required above 150C - which is the temperature range being using. Best, Jeshua Lacock Founder/Engineer 3DTOPO Incorporated http://3DTOPO.com Phone: 208.462.4171 Makes sense. Thermocouples are the standard on all of the commercial plastic extruders I have worked on. By the time you do linearization of a TC and cold junction compensation, you might was well buy a cheap PID controller and interface to that. If you were going to sell 100 of them, ok, but for a one off... there are easier ways. I notice that Mesa has some PC104 cards that can do TCs. Dave -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On Monday 04 June 2012 19:53:48 Jeshua Lacock wrote: ... and I am all for doing things the right way, I agree. do you think it makes sense if we all collaboratively work towards a common goal? Yes. It just seems that several people are going in several directions, and we might all benefit from a shared strategy. It is time to tell, what is essential and what desirable. For me essential: - temp. control of head(s) etc. from my experiance 12bit a/d is required, (I wil test 10bit with avr board) because of thermal long time constant 8 bit of pwm output may be ok Desirable: - common lcnc api: gcode and hal parts Joachim -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On Mon, 2012-06-04 at 11:53 -0600, Jeshua Lacock wrote: you are basing this on what? Rumor, supposition, hearsay, random tales, and watching the slow-motion destruction of mobile phone innovation through internecine IP warfare. The fact that a judge had to rule that APIs can't be copyrighted tells you pretty nearly everything you need to know about the state of the art. Given the current attitude toward IP, there's no reason to expect benevolent behavior from the major players. The only reason we don't see lawyers catapulting over the parapets seems to be that the minor players lack enough money to make it worthwhile... [grin] I've started reading the old 3D printing patents. It's heavy going, but many of the clever ideas I've had / seen elsewhere seem to be covered. Verily, there's little new under the sun and, of course, I'm now coated with a thin layer of precious IP floobydust. As the saying goes: It's not whether you're paranoid, it's whether you're paranoid *enough*. -- Ed http://softsolder.com -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 17:05:40 -0400 Ed Nisley ed.08.nis...@pobox.com wrote: On Mon, 2012-06-04 at 11:53 -0600, Jeshua Lacock wrote: you are basing this on what? Rumor, supposition, hearsay, random tales, and watching the slow-motion destruction of mobile phone innovation through internecine IP warfare. The fact that a judge had to rule that APIs can't be copyrighted tells you pretty nearly everything you need to know about the state of the art. Given the current attitude toward IP, there's no reason to expect benevolent behavior from the major players. The only reason we don't see lawyers catapulting over the parapets seems to be that the minor players lack enough money to make it worthwhile... [grin] I've started reading the old 3D printing patents. It's heavy going, but many of the clever ideas I've had / seen elsewhere seem to be covered. Verily, there's little new under the sun and, of course, I'm now coated with a thin layer of precious IP floobydust. As the saying goes: It's not whether you're paranoid, it's whether you're paranoid *enough*. It has always been my understanding that you can make a patented device; you just can't sell it. I don't think this precludes using that patented device to make things which you sell. Dave -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On Jun 4, 2012, at 2:47 PM, Joachim Franek wrote: do you think it makes sense if we all collaboratively work towards a common goal? Yes. Excellent. It just seems that several people are going in several directions, and we might all benefit from a shared strategy. It is time to tell, what is essential and what desirable. For me essential: - temp. control of head(s) etc. from my experiance 12bit a/d is required, (I wil test 10bit with avr board) because of thermal long time constant 8 bit of pwm output may be ok Desirable: - common lcnc api: gcode and hal parts Personally what I would like to see is: • Compatible with existing popular slicing software, filtering with a script is acceptable (but of course not ideal), for instance using the python script at: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5233 • Compatible with off the shelf components such as MakerBots newest extruder the MK7: http://store.makerbot.com/stepstruder-mk7-complete.html • And their controller card. If we could eliminate the card with standard CNC hardware, that works too. But this card looks like it essentially just controls the power of the extruder heater. http://store.makerbot.com/extruder-controller-v3-6.html Note the CNC conversion at: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5233 uses the older MK5 extruder. As I understand it, the MK5 extruder just uses a DC motor which that CNC conversion commanded its speed (0-255) and on/off. The MK7 extruder uses a stepper motor. I assume it should be no problem (maybe even less of a problem) using a stepper instead of the DC motor with LinuxCNC. I am not sure how the slicing software handles the extruder stepper motor, but I would guess it is with G Code. • Multiple extruder support would be great too, either for increased print speeds and/or different material. That of course can come later. Cheers, Jeshua Lacock Founder/Engineer 3DTOPO Incorporated http://3DTOPO.com Phone: 208.462.4171 -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On Jun 4, 2012, at 5:41 PM, dave wrote: It has always been my understanding that you can make a patented device; you just can't sell it. I don't think this precludes using that patented device to make things which you sell. Good point. Also, as far as I know, Makerbot et al have not had much of a legal battle so far. The only incidents I am aware of is a handful of big companies have sent them cease and desist letters for things online at thingverse that were essentially 3D scans of copyrighted geometry. Best, Jeshua Lacock Founder/Engineer 3DTOPO Incorporated http://3DTOPO.com Phone: 208.462.4171 -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On Monday, June 04, 2012 09:13:21 PM Ed Nisley did opine: On Mon, 2012-06-04 at 11:53 -0600, Jeshua Lacock wrote: you are basing this on what? Rumor, supposition, hearsay, random tales, and watching the slow-motion destruction of mobile phone innovation through internecine IP warfare. The fact that a judge had to rule that APIs can't be copyrighted tells you pretty nearly everything you need to know about the state of the art. Given the current attitude toward IP, there's no reason to expect benevolent behavior from the major players. The only reason we don't see lawyers catapulting over the parapets seems to be that the minor players lack enough money to make it worthwhile... [grin] I've started reading the old 3D printing patents. It's heavy going, but many of the clever ideas I've had / seen elsewhere seem to be covered. Verily, there's little new under the sun and, of course, I'm now coated with a thin layer of precious IP floobydust. As the saying goes: It's not whether you're paranoid, it's whether you're paranoid *enough*. Sometimes paranoia can get the better of a product too. One year, about 80 I think, I'm at the NAB show in Vegas, and I wander into the Microtime booth to be greeted by a device I had just built from scratch which aids the preparation of a commercial tape so it can function well with another of their products known as the automatic station break machine. The sales guy was waxing poetic about it and I was impressed by what it didn't do. So I proceeded to describe what my version was already doing that theirs was incapable of doing because mine was a one stop solution that Just Worked(TM). Confident that I had impressed the sales dweeb I left, intending to come back after he'd had a couple of hours to discuss buying my design with his powers that be. But the fact that I was obviously first and way ahead of their RD must have scared them, because when I came back 2 hours later, it was gone, and when I asked about it, the reply was that it was a prototype they decided to cancel. And they never again came close to offering that packaged function again. Too bad, so sad, we both could have made a usable amount of money. But because I was obviously first, they ran like rats from a sinking ship. With my design their advertising budget manufacturing know how, we could truly have made a profitable splash. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene If you lose a son you can always get another, but there's only one Maltese Falcon. -- Sidney Greenstreet, The Maltese Falcon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On Mon, 2012-06-04 at 18:31 -0600, Jeshua Lacock wrote: Also, as far as I know, Makerbot et al have not had much of a legal battle so far. True, but now that they're doing something over $5 M/yr with substantial funding, they look more like a target. Again, I know nothing other than the fundamental truth that money changes *everything*... -- Ed http://softsolder.com -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On 06/04/2012 08:31 PM, Jeshua Lacock wrote: On Jun 4, 2012, at 5:41 PM, dave wrote: It has always been my understanding that you can make a patented device; you just can't sell it. I don't think this precludes using that patented device to make things which you sell. IANAL and I don't play one on TV. It is my understanding that in the US, you may NOT use a process or make a patented device without a license. It does not matter whether you sell it or not. At one point there was a patent for deactivating hydrogen peroxide for cleaning contact lenses by means of a (very small) platinum catalyst. The cleaning kit included a license to use that process. You could not just do it yourself without the license. (Well, you could, but you would be infringing on the patent.) Ken Good point. Also, as far as I know, Makerbot et al have not had much of a legal battle so far. The only incidents I am aware of is a handful of big companies have sent them cease and desist letters for things online at thingverse that were essentially 3D scans of copyrighted geometry. Best, Jeshua Lacock Founder/Engineer 3DTOPO Incorporated http://3DTOPO.com Phone: 208.462.4171 -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
dave wrote: It has always been my understanding that you can make a patented device; you just can't sell it. I don't think this precludes using that patented device to make things which you sell. This has been gone over a number of times on other lists, if you use it in commerce, the patent holder can definitely sue you for all profits made with the covered device. The patent law is pretty clearly worded in this regard. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 22:05:06 -0500 Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com wrote: dave wrote: It has always been my understanding that you can make a patented device; you just can't sell it. I don't think this precludes using that patented device to make things which you sell. This has been gone over a number of times on other lists, if you use it in commerce, the patent holder can definitely sue you for all profits made with the covered device. The patent law is pretty clearly worded in this regard. Jon Thanks Jon, The older I get the less I seem to know. Dave -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
These printers are very clever and the products entertaining, but I have issues with how they fit in with the big picture. Plastic, over a the long run has very limited utility, but never goes away and stays toxic. What is going to happen to all of these busts of Yoda once the entertainment value has worn off? I prefer to work with the materials nature provides, and which we have become environmentally and biologically used to - metals, wood, rock, dirt, etcetera. From the http://zerowasteinstitute.org/ website. If you ask the wrong question you will get the wrong answer! Consider this: most people facing the generation of waste ask precisely the wrong question. The question they ask is this – how can I make use of this waste product so that it will be used, not wasted? Generations of people have wasted their time and their society’s time with this wrong question. This would be the better question? “How do I change what I (we) are doing so that we no longer produce any waste products?” Find that answer and you have really solved a problem worth solving. The best part is that you won’t have to keep seeking the earlier, wrong answer, over and over. You won’t have any waste product to find new uses for. Everything will be used up automatically. We can’t focus so strenuously on past mistakes that we never get to design a better future. It’s like the classical difference between giving a man a fish and showing him how to fish. At least while there are still fish to catch (nowadays worth thinking about) you can offer a structural, not a temporary solution. I feel CNC machining helps people on this list to explore reinventing the use of nature derived materials, which naturally recycle, to both create designs that minimize waste and maximize product longevity. -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
For the most part they are trying to move to PLA, which has several advantages, the most important being it's biodegradable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polylactic_acid Thanks, DougM On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 9:54 AM, Kirk Wallace kwall...@wallacecompany.com wrote: These printers are very clever and the products entertaining, but I have issues with how they fit in with the big picture. Plastic, over a the long run has very limited utility, but never goes away and stays toxic. What is going to happen to all of these busts of Yoda once the entertainment value has worn off? I prefer to work with the materials nature provides, and which we have become environmentally and biologically used to - metals, wood, rock, dirt, etcetera. From the http://zerowasteinstitute.org/ website. If you ask the wrong question you will get the wrong answer! Consider this: most people facing the generation of waste ask precisely the wrong question. The question they ask is this – how can I make use of this waste product so that it will be used, not wasted? Generations of people have wasted their time and their society’s time with this wrong question. This would be the better question? “How do I change what I (we) are doing so that we no longer produce any waste products?” Find that answer and you have really solved a problem worth solving. The best part is that you won’t have to keep seeking the earlier, wrong answer, over and over. You won’t have any waste product to find new uses for. Everything will be used up automatically. We can’t focus so strenuously on past mistakes that we never get to design a better future. It’s like the classical difference between giving a man a fish and showing him how to fish. At least while there are still fish to catch (nowadays worth thinking about) you can offer a structural, not a temporary solution. I feel CNC machining helps people on this list to explore reinventing the use of nature derived materials, which naturally recycle, to both create designs that minimize waste and maximize product longevity. -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
And to some extent, MOST plastic is recyclable. We DONT do it, typically because it is (1) inconvenient, (2) un-economical There are projects like the filabot (a kickstarter project) that is coming up with a re-grinder and filament maker for personal use. I look forward to the day that 'disposable' bottles are just tossed in a hopper and 'recycled filament' comes out the other end (ok, the process will be more than that for a while, but that is the long term goal) If we don't use petrolium for plastics, we will use it for something else. But I totally agree, if we can reduce our use, it is a better thing. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On 3 Jun 2012, at 18:46, Jack Coats j...@coats.org wrote: And to some extent, MOST plastic is recyclable. We DONT do it, typically because it is (1) inconvenient, (2) un-economical Pretty much all my domestic plastic goes in the recycling bag. I think that is true of most of Europe. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
I do some work periodically at a plant that recycles sheet plastic - like shopping bags. It is all low density polyethylene. They process hundreds of tons of it per day and they are expanding. Their finished product is pellets which are used to make more sheeting. Considering that their feed material is basically free, it is a profitable business. Regarding natural vs non-natural. Petroleum is just as natural as limestone or red oak. Steel and Aluminum are refined from ores. Plastics are derived from petroleum. Plenty of things in nature are deadly to humans. Heck, even wood dust is bad news. http://www.gov.mb.ca/labour/safety/pdf/bulletins/bltn238.pdf Rock dust will cause silicosis. Dave On 6/3/2012 2:15 PM, Andy Pugh wrote: On 3 Jun 2012, at 18:46, Jack Coatsj...@coats.org wrote: And to some extent, MOST plastic is recyclable. We DONT do it, typically because it is (1) inconvenient, (2) un-economical Pretty much all my domestic plastic goes in the recycling bag. I think that is true of most of Europe. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
And the claims of peak petroleum are bunk and a bill of goods in an attempt to control us and fleece us. On Jun 3, 2012 1:53 PM, Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com wrote: I do some work periodically at a plant that recycles sheet plastic - like shopping bags. It is all low density polyethylene. They process hundreds of tons of it per day and they are expanding. Their finished product is pellets which are used to make more sheeting. Considering that their feed material is basically free, it is a profitable business. Regarding natural vs non-natural. Petroleum is just as natural as limestone or red oak. Steel and Aluminum are refined from ores. Plastics are derived from petroleum. Plenty of things in nature are deadly to humans. Heck, even wood dust is bad news. http://www.gov.mb.ca/labour/safety/pdf/bulletins/bltn238.pdf Rock dust will cause silicosis. Dave On 6/3/2012 2:15 PM, Andy Pugh wrote: On 3 Jun 2012, at 18:46, Jack Coatsj...@coats.org wrote: And to some extent, MOST plastic is recyclable. We DONT do it, typically because it is (1) inconvenient, (2) un-economical Pretty much all my domestic plastic goes in the recycling bag. I think that is true of most of Europe. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 19:15:07 +0100 Andy Pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote: On 3 Jun 2012, at 18:46, Jack Coats j...@coats.org wrote: And to some extent, MOST plastic is recyclable. We DONT do it, typically because it is (1) inconvenient, (2) un-economical Pretty much all my domestic plastic goes in the recycling bag. I think that is true of most of Europe. Even here in the boonies plastic is recyclable but glass is not. We haul our glass to my son's in the Puget Sound area and he recycles it. Because we live in the middle of a rather decent wine producing area I've asked about recycling wine bottles and have been told that wineries expect glass for a case or for a given wine to be all the same color. I'm really surprised that someone has not grabbed on to the idea of recycled cardboard for cases and random glass color but all the same style for wine bottles as a marketing tool. But then who ever claimed that marketing was logical. ;-) dave -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
After working in the oil patch most of my career, it doesn't really matter what we 'think', it matters what we are charged. ... If we don't want it, we don't have to buy it. There are many centuries of $500/barrel oil (in todays $$) and no $14/barrel oil available. The price is what the market will bear. There are a few minimums, but each producer has their real 'cost of production' and if they can't get that much, they will close in the well and wait till it comes above that prices. At any point in time in histsory, the story is 'all the easy oil has been found', so they keep spending more to find more, so they have to charge more (plus a profit, of course. ... Oil companies are not altruistic. Most of them take a page from the Ayn Rand philosophy books. - Read the books The Fountainview, and Atlas Shrugged by her to see what I mean.) ... Jack Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart... Colossians 3:23 You don't manage people; you manage things. You lead people. — Admiral Grace Hopper, USN If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate - Henry J. Tillman Anyone who has never made a mistake, has never tried anything new. - Albert Einstein On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote: And the claims of peak petroleum are bunk and a bill of goods in an attempt to control us and fleece us. On Jun 3, 2012 1:53 PM, Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com wrote: -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On Jun 3, 2012, at 10:54 AM, Kirk Wallace wrote: These printers are very clever and the products entertaining, but I have issues with how they fit in with the big picture. Plastic, over a the long run has very limited utility, but never goes away and stays toxic. What is going to happen to all of these busts of Yoda once the entertainment value has worn off? Hi Kirk, Well plastic is generally used where metal is not needed. One example would be a Yoda bust, or a hose connecter. No need to make them out of aluminum (for the most part). The energy embodied in a given part of aluminum is at least a magnitude higher than the same part of plastic. So we are better off (at least carbon wise) if a given part is made out plastic instead of metal. Also, all types of plastic are cleanly recyclable in plasma gasification recycling plants (online in Japan and the first is now online in NYC): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_Converter And with the Thermal depolymerization process: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization The problem with plastic is when it doesn't make it to the recycling centers and worse when it even doesn't make it to the dump. But aluminum really is no different in this regard. An aluminum can that makes its way to the beach of a deserted island will be there for a long long time. I prefer to work with the materials nature provides, and which we have become environmentally and biologically used to - metals, wood, rock, dirt, etcetera. As Doug pointed out PLA is biodegradable and is in fact made from corn and/or sugar. Soy based plastics are a reality now too, with even major auto companies using it in cars now. HDPE is directly usable in plastic extrusion 3D printers with some modifcation. All you have to do is shred it and feed in a grain hopper style feeder. If you prefer to mill HDPE, here is a cool instruct able showing how to make HDPE blocks: http://www.instructables.com/id/Making-Blocks-out-of-HDPE-milk-jugs/ Cheers, Jeshua Lacock Founder/Engineer 3DTOPO Incorporated http://3DTOPO.com Phone: 208.462.4171 -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 6/3/2012 6:31 PM, Michael Haberler wrote: Am 03.06.2012 um 18:54 schrieb Kirk Wallace: These printers are very clever and the products entertaining, but I have issues with how they fit in with the big picture. Plastic, over a the Kirk, I understand your point however, I'm much more concerned about this project basically missing the boat on 3D printing altogether, while this space goes off to reinvent a lot of the same - and with much creative energy and funding behind it I'm not blaming anybody or proposing a particular cure - I'm just reporting a gut feeling deriving from experience with the tides of OSS projects That's why as a new LinuxCNC user with a knee mill to retrofit, my first task will be getting my MendelMax 3D printer running via LinuxCNC with the PREEMPT_RT patch set. IMHO, it's important to the long-term future of LinuxCNC to be able to run with a modern kernel, and to be able to easily control a typical RepRap 3D printer. Side-Note: Generation of the step/dir signals is straight-forward, but modern RepRap firmware also does PID control of the extruder temperature via a thermister sensor. I am currently planning on using a simple 555 timer circuit to convert temperature (resistance) to frequency, and use the line-in on my motherboard (with something like Aubio) to detect the frequency and convert it to a HAL temperature signal that can be used to PWM control the heater. That provides up to two analog input signals with decent resolution essentially for free. If anyone has a better idea, or something that would just use the parallel port, I'd love to hear it! - -- Charles Steinkuehler char...@steinkuehler.net -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/L+8YACgkQLywbqEHdNFzBZQCfXBYKNK66hj3jTeDPBSbl2gjI FwAAn3tsKKT02GR/4NytQY5Y1oMQaATr =C7bX -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On 6/3/2012 8:05 PM, Charles Steinkuehler wrote: Generation of the step/dir signals is straight-forward, but modern RepRap firmware also does PID control of the extruder temperature via a thermister sensor. I am currently planning on using a simple 555 timer circuit to convert temperature (resistance) to frequency, and use the line-in on my motherboard (with something like Aubio) to detect the frequency and convert it to a HAL temperature signal that can be used to PWM control the heater. I'd be tempted to simply buy one or two PID controllers. Kelinginc.net has them for $39 each. And those are setup so you can use thermocouples which are cheap. Dave -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
Michael: however, I'm much more concerned about this project basically missing the boat on 3D printing altogether In what way? It seems to me that some of the mechanical designs are simply bad. (OK, perhaps horrendous would be a better term) I'm all for inexpensive, but there a point where being cheap actually costs more money. Dave On 6/3/2012 7:31 PM, Michael Haberler wrote: Am 03.06.2012 um 18:54 schrieb Kirk Wallace: These printers are very clever and the products entertaining, but I have issues with how they fit in with the big picture. Plastic, over a the Kirk, I understand your point however, I'm much more concerned about this project basically missing the boat on 3D printing altogether, while this space goes off to reinvent a lot of the same - and with much creative energy and funding behind it I'm not blaming anybody or proposing a particular cure - I'm just reporting a gut feeling deriving from experience with the tides of OSS projects - Michael -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods?
On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Dave wrote: Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 21:08:44 -0400 From: Dave e...@dc9.tzo.com Reply-To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: and Soapbox: 3D Printer Mods? On 6/3/2012 8:05 PM, Charles Steinkuehler wrote: Generation of the step/dir signals is straight-forward, but modern RepRap firmware also does PID control of the extruder temperature via a thermister sensor. I am currently planning on using a simple 555 timer circuit to convert temperature (resistance) to frequency, and use the line-in on my motherboard (with something like Aubio) to detect the frequency and convert it to a HAL temperature signal that can be used to PWM control the heater. I'd be tempted to simply buy one or two PID controllers. Kelinginc.net has them for $39 each. And those are setup so you can use thermocouples which are cheap. Dave A single parallel port input and a V-F should work as well. Even a just OK motherboard should be able to track a 5 KHz square wave. This is good enough for ~10 Bits at a 5Hz update rate, plenty for an injector control. Peter Wallace -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
