Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Chris Albertson]

Point was to not let the current arrangement of equipment drive the
selection of what new mill you can buy because for not a lot of money you
can have the current arrangement of equipment changed.  I'd guess the
labor cost in rural Indiana is less than here in So Cal.

If you are looking to get setup fast, if you buy a REALLY common knee mill
you can buy bolt-on CNC conversion kits for it and you can know the final
performance before you start the process.


> I live outside of a small town of about 1000 in rural Indiana. When I
> first moved her in the 90's, each morning about 6:30am a bunch of guys
> looking for day work would gather outside a small grocery store in
> town.   Contractors (many of them Amish) were always looking for help
> and they would swing by with their vans and pickup labor as required.
> This went on for years.  Sometimes there would be 50 guys there looking
> for work.  One morning, the INS setup a sting and arrested a number of
> illegals looking for work.That was the end of that.  The work didn't
> go away, the labor market just went underground.There are a lot of
> cash businesses around here.   Some have significant workforces.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Dave Cole]

On 2/7/2021 6:59 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

On Sun, Feb 7, 2021 at 9:41 AM Gene Heskett  wrote:


   Space for
it means pulling the crooked g0704 out before bringing it in. And more
than likely hurting myself getting it backed into the space. But I think
I'm a little smarter about such than I was 5 or 6 years ago putting the
go704 where it is.


Are there no Home Depot stores near you?   If you drive by one you will
find a good supply of day laborers waiting for work.   In the early
morning, they all seem to be hoping for a full day of work but after lunch,
they will accept a one or two-hour job. You can hire an army of movers
for a one-hour shop realignment.   Four big guys can haul everything out,
sweep the area, and put it all back in not much time.   Then you have room
for what you want.   Around here, $20 per hour plus lunch is the going rate
for that kind of unskilled labor.   So $200 gets a lot of heavy work done.
A few months ago I ordered 16,000 pounds of river rock and the delivery
truck could only get it to within 50 to 60 feet of where it was needed.
Heck if I was going to move that myself.  I'm much younger than 80 but see
no reason to move stuff like that myself.  Once you get used to hiring
these guys, big jobs like filing a stake bed truck with construction debris
by hand are easy, You just say  "put all this stuff in the truck" and it's
done.


I live outside of a small town of about 1000 in rural Indiana. When I 
first moved her in the 90's, each morning about 6:30am a bunch of guys 
looking for day work would gather outside a small grocery store in 
town.   Contractors (many of them Amish) were always looking for help 
and they would swing by with their vans and pickup labor as required.   
This went on for years.  Sometimes there would be 50 guys there looking 
for work.  One morning, the INS setup a sting and arrested a number of 
illegals looking for work.    That was the end of that.  The work didn't 
go away, the labor market just went underground.    There are a lot of 
cash businesses around here.   Some have significant workforces.







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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 08 February 2021 17:36:35 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 02/08/2021 12:11 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > If you've room for it Jon I expect it would be a pretty good deal at
> > that price. But check the ceiling height it needs too, that looks to
> > be in excess of the usual 96" tall. I'd probably be 5 or 6"" or so
> > thru the ceiling in my garage. With 3 containers of tooling, heck of
> > a deal.  If I had room for it...
>
> Oh YEAH!  That's why I can't have a Bridgeport BOSS machine,
> the top of the head would be WAY up inside the kitchen
> cabinets!  I have a fairly low ceiling in my basement.  So,
> that is one of the important details to keep in mind.
>
> > Freight would likely be substantial.
> >
> > I wonder what the catch is? Dead bandit maybe? At its age, going on
> > 35 years, the electrolytics in the various psu's are likely way
> > overdue for new ones.
>
> Yes, the Bandit control is quite mediocre, and almost
> certainly now kaput.  No way I'd want to even mess with it.
> The motors are probably fine, the encoders might be too low
> resolution.  My Bridgeport has some wear in the saddle and
> table and so machines a kind of saddle shape a few
> thousandths of an inch out of plane.  The big issue is the Y
> travel is limited to 7" the way I did the
> ballscrew retrofit.  That occasionally gets in the way.  I
> have a 12" Bridgeport knee and a bunch of BOSS parts like
> the ballscrews here, but don't want to take the machine
> apart for a couple months minimum to swap those parts.
>
> Jon

If its just parts swapping, why would it take 2 months? Of course its 
like we used to say when doing an engine swap to hide a big v8 under an 
I6 label on the side of the hood.  Get everything to do it in one pile, 
and put $500 in the billfold for the nuts and bolts you'll need, gas and 
oxy for the smith wrench etc etc. I used to enjoy building concealed 
weapons for the stoplight grand prix. Raise the hood on a 49 nash 
Ambassadore, looks stock except the air cleaner, did a 1/4 at Cordova Il 
in 15.76 secs, about 2 faster than any other F-stock that day.  That 231 
cid big 6 had all the right stuff in it from the factory, but was very 
crippled by the cam and timeing of both the ignition and the valves. I 
showed several with thousands in a rip snorting ford flat top how to 
watch my tail lights get closer and closer together, and nothing their 
screaming for more air fords could do about it.  The cam was as square 
as it could be with a 2.25" mushroom faced tappet, the valves were 
tulipped and double sprung and it was still pulling hard at 7 grand.  
And it was efficient, take it out on the highway and hang the speedo 
needle straight down for 150 miles, averaged 20 mpg from Iowa City to 
Redfield, in US-6 traffic but less than 2 hours. Fun times, 65 years 
ago.
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[andy pugh]

On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 at 22:38, Jon Elson  wrote:

> Oh YEAH!  That's why I can't have a Bridgeport BOSS machine,
> the top of the head would be WAY up inside the kitchen
> cabinets!

So?

It might even make shifting the belt easier.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Jon Elson]

On 02/08/2021 12:11 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

If you've room for it Jon I expect it would be a pretty good deal at that
price. But check the ceiling height it needs too, that looks to be in
excess of the usual 96" tall. I'd probably be 5 or 6"" or so thru the
ceiling in my garage. With 3 containers of tooling, heck of a deal.  If
I had room for it...
Oh YEAH!  That's why I can't have a Bridgeport BOSS machine, 
the top of the head would be WAY up inside the kitchen 
cabinets!  I have a fairly low ceiling in my basement.  So, 
that is one of the important details to keep in mind.


Freight would likely be substantial.

I wonder what the catch is? Dead bandit maybe? At its age, going on 35
years, the electrolytics in the various psu's are likely way overdue for
new ones.

Yes, the Bandit control is quite mediocre, and almost 
certainly now kaput.  No way I'd want to even mess with it.  
The motors are probably fine, the encoders might be too low 
resolution.  My Bridgeport has some wear in the saddle and 
table and so machines a kind of saddle shape a few
thousandths of an inch out of plane.  The big issue is the Y 
travel is limited to 7" the way I did the
ballscrew retrofit.  That occasionally gets in the way.  I 
have a 12" Bridgeport knee and a bunch of BOSS parts like 
the ballscrews here, but don't want to take the machine 
apart for a couple months minimum to swap those parts.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 08 February 2021 10:44:56 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 02/08/2021 08:20 AM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> > Gene,
> >
> > If you aren't too far away to drive to Cleveland, these guys might
> > be a good place to ckeck out. HGR has all manor of junk to look at.
> > Here is just one of many options.
> > https://hgrinc.com/productDetail/CNC/Used-Supermax-Supermax-Ycm-40-C
> >NC-Vertical-Ill/10200670001/
>
> Well, it doesn't solve his space problem, but that's a GREAT
> deal on a machine with servo motors (and presumably ball
> screws) already fitted!  I'm tempted to go for it!
>
> Jon
>
If you've room for it Jon I expect it would be a pretty good deal at that 
price. But check the ceiling height it needs too, that looks to be in 
excess of the usual 96" tall. I'd probably be 5 or 6"" or so thru the 
ceiling in my garage. With 3 containers of tooling, heck of a deal.  If 
I had room for it...

Freight would likely be substantial.

I wonder what the catch is? Dead bandit maybe? At its age, going on 35 
years, the electrolytics in the various psu's are likely way overdue for 
new ones.

Putting linuxcnc on it would probably be a huge improvement.  The huge 
covers on the YZ drives might hide some ills.  OSHA must have objected 
to the open drive trains & made the original buyer cover them?

The bed looks like it has more y travel than the width of the bed, Looks 
like chromed ways too. But I'd for sure have to build more room.  
Probably by demolishing the back deck, which needs to go anyway, no 
foundation under it and sagging 6" in the middle. That would take some 
long term planning, for a guy that doesn't even buy green banannas? :)


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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[John Dammeyer]

> From: Jon Elson [mailto:el...@pico-systems.com]
> On 02/08/2021 08:20 AM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> > Gene,
> >
> > If you aren't too far away to drive to Cleveland, these guys might be a 
> > good place to ckeck out. HGR has all manor of junk to look at.
> Here is just one of many options.
> > https://hgrinc.com/productDetail/CNC/Used-Supermax-Supermax-Ycm-40-CNC-Vertical-Ill/10200670001/
> >
> >
> Well, it doesn't solve his space problem, but that's a GREAT
> deal on a machine with servo motors (and presumably ball
> screws) already fitted!  I'm tempted to go for it!
> 
> Jon

It does look pretty good as long as the bed and ball screw wear isn't out to 
lunch given that it's from 1986.  Toss out the electronics.  Replace all motors 
so it runs on 220VAC single phase.

But it's really the time factor isn't it.  An old machine like that probably 
needs a complete strip down and paint job.  During that time it's lost income 
doing other things so that adds to the cost too.

John Dammeyer



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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Todd Zuercher]

Brows their site, you may find something that suits you better.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Jon Elson  
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2021 10:45 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

On 02/08/2021 08:20 AM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> Gene,
>
> If you aren't too far away to drive to Cleveland, these guys might be a good 
> place to ckeck out. HGR has all manor of junk to look at. Here is just one of 
> many options.
> https://hgrinc.com/productDetail/CNC/Used-Supermax-Supermax-Ycm-40-CNC
> -Vertical-Ill/10200670001/
>
>
Well, it doesn't solve his space problem, but that's a GREAT deal on a machine 
with servo motors (and presumably ball
screws) already fitted!  I'm tempted to go for it!

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Jon Elson]

On 02/08/2021 08:20 AM, Todd Zuercher wrote:

Gene,

If you aren't too far away to drive to Cleveland, these guys might be a good 
place to ckeck out. HGR has all manor of junk to look at. Here is just one of 
many options.
https://hgrinc.com/productDetail/CNC/Used-Supermax-Supermax-Ycm-40-CNC-Vertical-Ill/10200670001/


Well, it doesn't solve his space problem, but that's a GREAT 
deal on a machine with servo motors (and presumably ball 
screws) already fitted!  I'm tempted to go for it!


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Todd Zuercher]

Gene,

If you aren't too far away to drive to Cleveland, these guys might be a good 
place to ckeck out. HGR has all manor of junk to look at. Here is just one of 
many options.
https://hgrinc.com/productDetail/CNC/Used-Supermax-Supermax-Ycm-40-CNC-Vertical-Ill/10200670001/

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Gene Heskett  
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2021 6:14 AM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

On Monday 08 February 2021 04:40:49 andy pugh wrote:

> On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 at 09:09, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > > I doubt it. In fact the whole mill might be surprisingly tiny.
>
> A bit more research indicates that the "VH-2" in the auction 
> description is actually the designation of the vertical head (Vertical 
> Head 2?) The mill itself is probably a Hardinge UM.
> This also suggests that the machine is somewhat overpriced, as a bare 
> UM generally goes for around half the asking price.
> (That said, there is VH-2 vertical head on eBay right now for $1650)

Hmmm..

> Looking at specs for the Hardinge horizontal millers I think that you 
> will find it to be a bit smaller in all dimensions than a G0704.
> (Especially in table travel, which I think is unreasonably large on 
> the G0704 for the thickness of the table) From a forum post:
> "The TM and UM are the same machine except that the UM has a table 
> that swivals a few degrees. Total weight is 870 lbs. Table has 3 slots 
> and is 25" lg and 6 1/6" wide.

Quite a bit smaller than the G0704's work envelop then. Although the cnc screws 
cost it about an inch of y travel, very sorely missed.

> There are 32 speed selections from 110 to 1850 rpm in clockwise & 
> counterclockwise rotation. The table feeds in both directions from 
> 1/8" to 13" per min. Longitudnal feed is 14", transverse is 5 1/2" and 
> vertical is 13 1/4". Maximum distance from the table to the center of 
> the spindle is 12""

Where I can go from about 30 to 3000 on the GO704 (its a 90 volt motor getting 
up to 127 volts in my circuit)

> On the plus side, it is a horizontal miller with a swivel table. Those 
> make great gear hobbers.

> >  Did Hardinge ever make extension spacers to get a few more inches 
> > of working room under the spindle?
>
> I think that the knee would drop off the dovetail if you did.
>
> Note that the machine has no quill. Though that hasn't really bothered 
> me on my Harrison conversion.

I've always wondered hor a dual drive might be made to work so the quill and 
the knee moved in unison but it opposite directions.  Separate homes but 
otherwise a single motion, set up in hal.

> Whether the Hardinge is better than the G0704 for you rather depends 
> on what it is about the GO704 that you don't like.

Biggest problem is the post isn't plumb and it will have to be picked up and 
reamed so the bolts have a bit of wiggle room to fix it. I haven't tried 
previously because I didn't have the reamers, but now I do.  And I finally 
found some coffee cups at cafepress that claim to be a round tuit. So I've got 
a round tuit now. :)

> If it is lack of
> rigidity and geometrical truth then the Hardinge will be better. If it 
> is work envelope, table travel and spindle speeds then the Hardinge 
> will be worse.

Enough worse I'll not furher persue that then. Less spindle hp too at 3/4 
horse, whereas I am getting around 2 out of the labeled as a 1 on the GO704.  
Being abused but its hasn't complained in the nearly 6 years I've had it setup 
that way.

> And there is the point that the GO704 is currently a working CNC mill, 
> whereas the Hardinge is a (probably) working manual mill.

That too, so unless I come across the first link I posted but with an R8 
spindle, that one is out. An MT4 belongs in an old drill press. Come warmer 
weather again, see if I can square up the go704. And see if I can use a longer 
screw in the Y. For that, I'll need to acquire a cylindrical square.

Thanks Andy, a bunch.  Saved me about 4 tanks of gas going to look at it.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 08 February 2021 04:40:49 andy pugh wrote:

> On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 at 09:09, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > > I doubt it. In fact the whole mill might be surprisingly tiny.
>
> A bit more research indicates that the "VH-2" in the auction
> description is actually the designation of the vertical head (Vertical
> Head 2?)
> The mill itself is probably a Hardinge UM.
> This also suggests that the machine is somewhat overpriced, as a bare
> UM generally goes for around half the asking price.
> (That said, there is VH-2 vertical head on eBay right now for $1650)

Hmmm..

> Looking at specs for the Hardinge horizontal millers I think that you
> will find it to be a bit smaller in all dimensions than a G0704.
> (Especially in table travel, which I think is unreasonably large on
> the G0704 for the thickness of the table)
> From a forum post:
> "The TM and UM are the same machine except that the UM has a table
> that swivals a few degrees. Total weight is 870 lbs. Table has 3 slots
> and is 25" lg and 6 1/6" wide.

Quite a bit smaller than the G0704's work envelop then. Although the cnc 
screws cost it about an inch of y travel, very sorely missed.

> There are 32 speed selections from 110 
> to 1850 rpm in clockwise & counterclockwise rotation. The table feeds
> in both directions from 1/8" to 13" per min. Longitudnal feed is 14",
> transverse is 5 1/2" and vertical is 13 1/4". Maximum distance from
> the table to the center of the spindle is 12""

Where I can go from about 30 to 3000 on the GO704 (its a 90 volt motor 
getting up to 127 volts in my circuit)

> On the plus side, it is a horizontal miller with a swivel table. Those
> make great gear hobbers.

> >  Did Hardinge ever make extension spacers to
> > get a few more inches of working room under the spindle?
>
> I think that the knee would drop off the dovetail if you did.
>
> Note that the machine has no quill. Though that hasn't really bothered
> me on my Harrison conversion.

I've always wondered hor a dual drive might be made to work so the quill 
and the knee moved in unison but it opposite directions.  Separate homes 
but otherwise a single motion, set up in hal.

> Whether the Hardinge is better than the G0704 for you rather depends
> on what it is about the GO704 that you don't like.

Biggest problem is the post isn't plumb and it will have to be picked up 
and reamed so the bolts have a bit of wiggle room to fix it. I haven't 
tried previously because I didn't have the reamers, but now I do.  And I 
finally found some coffee cups at cafepress that claim to be a round 
tuit. So I've got a round tuit now. :)

> If it is lack of 
> rigidity and geometrical truth then the Hardinge will be better. If it
> is work envelope, table travel and spindle speeds then the Hardinge
> will be worse.

Enough worse I'll not furher persue that then. Less spindle hp too at 3/4 
horse, whereas I am getting around 2 out of the labeled as a 1 on the 
GO704.  Being abused but its hasn't complained in the nearly 6 years 
I've had it setup that way.

> And there is the point that the GO704 is currently a working CNC mill,
> whereas the Hardinge is a (probably) working manual mill.

That too, so unless I come across the first link I posted but with an R8 
spindle, that one is out. An MT4 belongs in an old drill press. Come 
warmer weather again, see if I can square up the go704. And see if I can 
use a longer screw in the Y. For that, I'll need to acquire a 
cylindrical square.

Thanks Andy, a bunch.  Saved me about 4 tanks of gas going to look at it.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[andy pugh]

On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 at 10:15, Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users
 wrote:
>
> A closer look at the pics and I see it's a TM mill with the VH-2 vertical 
> head.

Ah, yes, it doesn't seem to have the swinging table (though the
difference is rather subtle and hard to spot in photos, so it might
just have lost the pointer).
If it is TM rather than UM it won't make as good a hobbing platform.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

A closer look at the pics and I see it's a TM mill with the VH-2 vertical head. 
Here's a spec sheet 
https://ozarktoolmanuals.com/wp-content/uploads/pdfcatalogs/Hardinge_Horizontal_Mill_Bulletin.pdf
 

On Monday, February 8, 2021, 2:09:54 AM MST, Gene Heskett 
 wrote:  
 
 On Monday 08 February 2021 03:42:11 Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users wrote:

> Weird, that VH-2 looks exactly like a UM, but there are 5C and R8
> collets in the tray. The horizontal spindle is 5C and the vertical
> head on a UM (swivel table) or TM (non-swivel table) uses 4C.
I *think* this table doesn't swivel.
>
>    On Sunday, February 7, 2021, 7:22:09 AM MST, andy pugh
>  wrote:
>
>  On Sun, 7 Feb 2021 at 13:21, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > Neat, but does it have ball screws and room on the table for my
> > converted BS-1?
>
> I doubt it. In fact the whole mill might be surprisingly tiny. I have
> no idea, it was just a random eBay search to see what you kind of
> machine you could get for your assumed budget that was made by an
> actual machine tool builder.
>
>
Well, I'm going to waste the gas and go look at it this week, after the 
present weather moves on by. Did Hardinge ever make extension spacers to 
get a few more inches of working room under the spindle? 

That might solve the bs-1 clearance problem.

Thanks Gregg.

Cheers, Gene Heskett  
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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[andy pugh]

On Mon, 8 Feb 2021 at 09:09, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> > I doubt it. In fact the whole mill might be surprisingly tiny.

A bit more research indicates that the "VH-2" in the auction
description is actually the designation of the vertical head (Vertical
Head 2?)
The mill itself is probably a Hardinge UM.
This also suggests that the machine is somewhat overpriced, as a bare
UM generally goes for around half the asking price.
(That said, there is VH-2 vertical head on eBay right now for $1650)

Looking at specs for the Hardinge horizontal millers I think that you
will find it to be a bit smaller in all dimensions than a G0704.
(Especially in table travel, which I think is unreasonably large on
the G0704 for the thickness of the table)
From a forum post:
"The TM and UM are the same machine except that the UM has a table
that swivals a few degrees. Total weight is 870 lbs. Table has 3 slots
and is 25" lg and 6 1/6" wide. There are 32 speed selections from 110
to 1850 rpm in clockwise & counterclockwise rotation. The table feeds
in both directions from 1/8" to 13" per min. Longitudnal feed is 14",
transverse is 5 1/2" and vertical is 13 1/4". Maximum distance from
the table to the center of the spindle is 12""

On the plus side, it is a horizontal miller with a swivel table. Those
make great gear hobbers.

>  Did Hardinge ever make extension spacers to
> get a few more inches of working room under the spindle?

I think that the knee would drop off the dovetail if you did.

Note that the machine has no quill. Though that hasn't really bothered
me on my Harrison conversion.

Whether the Hardinge is better than the G0704 for you rather depends
on what it is about the GO704 that you don't like. If it is lack of
rigidity and geometrical truth then the Hardinge will be better. If it
is work envelope, table travel and spindle speeds then the Hardinge
will be worse.

And there is the point that the GO704 is currently a working CNC mill,
whereas the Hardinge is a (probably) working manual mill.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 08 February 2021 03:42:11 Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users wrote:

> Weird, that VH-2 looks exactly like a UM, but there are 5C and R8
> collets in the tray. The horizontal spindle is 5C and the vertical
> head on a UM (swivel table) or TM (non-swivel table) uses 4C.
I *think* this table doesn't swivel.
>
> On Sunday, February 7, 2021, 7:22:09 AM MST, andy pugh
>  wrote:
>
>  On Sun, 7 Feb 2021 at 13:21, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > Neat, but does it have ball screws and room on the table for my
> > converted BS-1?
>
> I doubt it. In fact the whole mill might be surprisingly tiny. I have
> no idea, it was just a random eBay search to see what you kind of
> machine you could get for your assumed budget that was made by an
> actual machine tool builder.
>
>
Well, I'm going to waste the gas and go look at it this week, after the 
present weather moves on by. Did Hardinge ever make extension spacers to 
get a few more inches of working room under the spindle? 

That might solve the bs-1 clearance problem.

Thanks Gregg.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

Weird, that VH-2 looks exactly like a UM, but there are 5C and R8 collets in 
the tray. The horizontal spindle is 5C and the vertical head on a UM (swivel 
table) or TM (non-swivel table) uses 4C.
 

On Sunday, February 7, 2021, 7:22:09 AM MST, andy pugh  
wrote:  
 
 On Sun, 7 Feb 2021 at 13:21, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> Neat, but does it have ball screws and room on the table for my converted
> BS-1?

I doubt it. In fact the whole mill might be surprisingly tiny. I have
no idea, it was just a random eBay search to see what you kind of
machine you could get for your assumed budget that was made by an
actual machine tool builder.

  
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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

 Suggest it to Tormach to add to their flat nosed 3/4" R8 TTS collet. Dunno how 
hard the top flange surface is on their TTS holders and epoxy on converter 
rings. One neat thing about the TTS holders is they work in the vertical head 
for a Hardinge UM/TM horizontal mill with a stock 3/4" 4C collet.
Rather than modifying an R8 collet with a slot for the head of a set screw for 
your tap hats, why not make the tap hats from hex bar stock with headless set 
screws and use a collet with a 6 sided hole?

On Sunday, February 7, 2021, 5:40:41 AM MST, Gene Heskett 
 wrote: 
As a user of numerous, not all alike, TTS style tool holders, I should 
put a similar locking scheme into effect for the 3/4" R8 collets. By 
putting a locator pin in the upper face of the TTS flange and a matching 
pinhole in the edge of the R8 collet, obviously timed to the pin slot in 
the collet. But it will take a carbide drill to make those holes, those 
collets are HARD, its all a coated carbide end mill can do to make the 
slot/cup for the capscrew in the tap hats.  
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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 07 February 2021 18:59:35 Chris Albertson wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 7, 2021 at 9:41 AM Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> >   Space for
> > it means pulling the crooked g0704 out before bringing it in. And
> > more than likely hurting myself getting it backed into the space.
> > But I think I'm a little smarter about such than I was 5 or 6 years
> > ago putting the go704 where it is.
>
> Are there no Home Depot stores near you?   If you drive by one you
> will find a good supply of day laborers waiting for work.   In the
> early morning, they all seem to be hoping for a full day of work but
> after lunch, they will accept a one or two-hour job. You can hire
> an army of movers for a one-hour shop realignment.   Four big guys can
> haul everything out, sweep the area, and put it all back in not much
> time.   Then you have room for what you want.   Around here, $20 per
> hour plus lunch is the going rate for that kind of unskilled labor.  
> So $200 gets a lot of heavy work done. A few months ago I ordered
> 16,000 pounds of river rock and the delivery truck could only get it
> to within 50 to 60 feet of where it was needed. Heck if I was going to
> move that myself.  I'm much younger than 80 but see no reason to move
> stuff like that myself.  Once you get used to hiring these guys, big
> jobs like filing a stake bed truck with construction debris by hand
> are easy, You just say  "put all this stuff in the truck" and it's
> done.

This all so true, but I've been carefull with the sheckels since retiring 
19 years ago, so I don't normally think about it that way. Not to 
mention the nearest HD is 25 miles up the interstate from here. Toss in 
that they fire on the spot, any employee trying to collar a shoplifter. 
That to me puts them several lines down the list of places where I shop.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 07 February 2021 15:57:46 John Dammeyer wrote:

> > From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> >
> > On Sun, 7 Feb 2021 at 20:10,  wrote:
> > > Perhaps using a collet results in more variability of tool lengths
> > > compared to an R8 alone. However, I doubt that either way is
> > > reproducible to less than several thou.
> >
> > The whole class of 7/24 tapers rely on pulling back to the same
> > place every time. A solid R8 should be just as good, the taper angle
> > is the same to within less than half a degree.
>
> I still have to use the R8 for somethings like the floating tap
> holder, Face mill, larger than 1/4" drill chuck but I do find most of
> what I do is done with the TT type tooling.  Either the early ones
> that didn't have the tool changer slot in them or far east ones with a
> narrower shoulder that would require modifications for a tool changer.
>
> The other issue I have with R8 is that some of the tooling allows the
> straight section to slide smoothly into the upper part of the spindle.
>  Other R8 holders barely fit.  I'm not sure if the spindle is out of
> spec or tooling since they all have the same dimension when I measure
> them with a micrometer.
>
> So that also makes the TT stuff nicer to use.
> John
>
The posibility of a damaged locator pin in the the spindle bore, along 
with a small variation in the R8 slot width comes to mind. I'd take a 
decent 1st surface mirror and a good strong light to a good look see at 
the pin.  I'm thinking wear has made it accessible to the drawbolts pull 
before the pin was engaged. bringing the drawbolt up to tension would 
then bend the pin upward. It should not be able to rise far enough for 
the drawbolts threads to engage it before the pin is properly engaged 
with the slot in the R8.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Chris Albertson]

On Sun, Feb 7, 2021 at 9:41 AM Gene Heskett  wrote:

>
>   Space for
> it means pulling the crooked g0704 out before bringing it in. And more
> than likely hurting myself getting it backed into the space. But I think
> I'm a little smarter about such than I was 5 or 6 years ago putting the
> go704 where it is.
>

Are there no Home Depot stores near you?   If you drive by one you will
find a good supply of day laborers waiting for work.   In the early
morning, they all seem to be hoping for a full day of work but after lunch,
they will accept a one or two-hour job. You can hire an army of movers
for a one-hour shop realignment.   Four big guys can haul everything out,
sweep the area, and put it all back in not much time.   Then you have room
for what you want.   Around here, $20 per hour plus lunch is the going rate
for that kind of unskilled labor.   So $200 gets a lot of heavy work done.
   A few months ago I ordered 16,000 pounds of river rock and the delivery
truck could only get it to within 50 to 60 feet of where it was needed.
Heck if I was going to move that myself.  I'm much younger than 80 but see
no reason to move stuff like that myself.  Once you get used to hiring
these guys, big jobs like filing a stake bed truck with construction debris
by hand are easy, You just say  "put all this stuff in the truck" and it's
done.

-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 07 February 2021 15:08:59 ken.stra...@gmail.com wrote:

> -Original Message-
> From: Gene Heskett 
> Sent: February 7, 2021 2:46 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please
>
> On Sunday 07 February 2021 13:09:24 Jon Elson wrote:
> > On 02/07/2021 06:38 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > 1. Any tool griping mechanism the has to squeeze a collet by
> > > drawing it lengthwise in a tapered seat has to compromise your tlo
> > > offsets in the tool table
>
> Perhaps using a collet results in more variability of tool lengths
> compared to an R8 alone. However, I doubt that either way is
> reproducible to less than several thou. Why not touch off to a tool
> height sensor or use a simple system like the Tormach TTS?
>
I, if doing a multipart job, normally touch off to a piece pcb at the 
start of the program, or after any tool change and apply the offset 
found by the g38.2 to the co-ordinate system in use. All w/o any 
interaction with me.

To make those tap hats, I lined up the needed jigs on the table in a row, 
and when I had all those co-ords written into the program, it was a 
matter of "changing the tools" to redo that.  So all I had to do was 
find the right sized drill, change the tool and/or move the workpiece 
from jig to jig. Feed it brass plugs precut in the Sheldon, and assemble 
that tap into the finished hat. 

I did about 75 of them IIRC. This included drilling the central hole for 
the tap shank and tapping 5 more holes for the 4 that fix the square 
butt of the tap, and the slightly recessed 4mm cap screw that locks it 
to the R8. It was drilling the tap shank hole all the way thru it that I 
became rather painfull aware that the post wasn't plumb to the table, so 
you would normally tram it to the table, but that leaves you dragging 
the side of the drill bit, creating all sorts of objectional screeching, 
or figure out which way it is off, and drilling the hole at the posts 
lean angle.  So lets just call it a pain in the ass and be truthfull 
about it.

The net result is that none of the tap hats pulls a tap absolutely dead 
straight. Loose taps.

Take care and stay well, Ken.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[John Dammeyer]

> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> On Sun, 7 Feb 2021 at 20:10,  wrote:
> 
> > Perhaps using a collet results in more variability of tool lengths compared
> > to an R8 alone. However, I doubt that either way is reproducible to less
> > than several thou.
> 
> The whole class of 7/24 tapers rely on pulling back to the same place
> every time. A solid R8 should be just as good, the taper angle is the
> same to within less than half a degree.
> 
I still have to use the R8 for somethings like the floating tap holder, Face 
mill, larger than 1/4" drill chuck but I do find most of what I do is done with 
the TT type tooling.  Either the early ones that didn't have the tool changer 
slot in them or far east ones with a narrower shoulder that would require 
modifications for a tool changer.

The other issue I have with R8 is that some of the tooling allows the straight 
section to slide smoothly into the upper part of the spindle.  Other R8 holders 
barely fit.  I'm not sure if the spindle is out of spec or tooling since they 
all have the same dimension when I measure them with a micrometer.

So that also makes the TT stuff nicer to use.
John




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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[ken.strauss]

" A solid R8 should be just as good " Yes, my assumption was that a collet or 
R8 would produce similar results with a collet being slightly worse.

-Original Message-
From: andy pugh  
Sent: February 7, 2021 3:21 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

On Sun, 7 Feb 2021 at 20:10,  wrote:

> Perhaps using a collet results in more variability of tool lengths 
> compared to an R8 alone. However, I doubt that either way is 
> reproducible to less than several thou.

The whole class of 7/24 tapers rely on pulling back to the same place every 
time. A solid R8 should be just as good, the taper angle is the same to within 
less than half a degree.

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed for 
the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[andy pugh]

On Sun, 7 Feb 2021 at 20:10,  wrote:

> Perhaps using a collet results in more variability of tool lengths compared
> to an R8 alone. However, I doubt that either way is reproducible to less
> than several thou.

The whole class of 7/24 tapers rely on pulling back to the same place
every time. A solid R8 should be just as good, the taper angle is the
same to within less than half a degree.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[ken.strauss]

-Original Message-
From: Gene Heskett  
Sent: February 7, 2021 2:46 PM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

On Sunday 07 February 2021 13:09:24 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 02/07/2021 06:38 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > 1. Any tool griping mechanism the has to squeeze a collet by drawing 
> > it lengthwise in a tapered seat has to compromise your tlo offsets 
> > in the tool table
Perhaps using a collet results in more variability of tool lengths compared
to an R8 alone. However, I doubt that either way is reproducible to less
than several thou. Why not touch off to a tool height sensor or use a simple
system like the Tormach TTS?





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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 07 February 2021 13:09:24 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 02/07/2021 06:38 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > 1. Any tool griping mechanism the has to squeeze a collet
> > by drawing it lengthwise in a tapered seat has to
> > compromise your tlo offsets in the tool table
>
> I have fitted myself out with a set of R8 tool holders, and
> rarely use a collet anymore.  About the only thing in a
> collet is my edge finder, which may benefit from better
> centering.  It did take some effort to find some of the odd
> sizes of R8 end mill holders.
>
> Jon
>
I have 2 sets, in inches only plus I bought 3 more 7/8" Korean to use 
with my tap hats, but have not found a set in mm size increments.  Are 
they even made in that mm style? However in today's search I found a 
2-20mm set of R8's in a wooden rack for $55.00/set, bought two sets.  
That ought to fix that problem. If they aren't loaded with runout.

I also see the proliferation of 3 phase stepper driven servos, in sizes 
up to nema-52's and 30+ nm's. Freight will slow those sales, $65 for 
small singles, up to $250 for a triplet of 20nm nema-42's. But you could 
do like we used to say on cow barn radio 50 years ago, lemme turn the 
house around. I had a high gain 623 with mods, and a pdl-2 antenna with 
a rotator 30 feet above the roof which on that old farmhouse was already 
3 stories high.

Sick bird? You betcha, but I never used more power that it took to get 
there. I talked to a farmer in Saskatchewan CA on less than a watt of 
SSB power many times that year. With the mods, that radio could do 70 
watts into a dummy load, sounding like a good hifi on both ends.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[ken.strauss]

I am a dozen years your junior but I greatly value getting my new toys *NOW*
regardless of cost. I've never seen Tormach sales numbers but I believe that
it is significant and that their new machines are in demand. I would (and
did years ago) purchase a new rather than a used Tormach. For minimal
savings and huge bother I don't think it is worth risking the purchase of
another's mistreated machine.

I have never liked bananas, green or otherwise.

-Original Message-
From: Gene Heskett  
Sent: February 7, 2021 12:51 PM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

On Sunday 07 February 2021 10:32:56 ken.stra...@gmail.com wrote:

> Please let me summarize your needs/desires for a new machine:
>   You have limited room
>   Want something larger and more rigid than your current machine
>   Must run on single phase 220 power
>   Ball screws
>   R8 or BT30 spindle
>   Maybe servos
>   Maybe rigid tapping
>   Controlled by LinuxCNC
>   Like me, you are elderly so not looking for a 10-year
> project but you relish the idea of making designing
> improvements and testing your designs.
>
Chuckle, I hearby nominate that last as understatement of the year.

I have reached that age, now 86, and with my heart history, where I don't
even buy green banannas.  Yet my last checkup, 6 months after they worked on
my heart the last time, they looked it over and said to make another
appointment next January. That has to be confidence in the cath-labs work.
;-)

> Have you considered buying a new or used Tormach? Their 440 has a
> 42x36 footprint and an R8 spindle. Their 770MX has a 56x48 footprint,
> BT30 spindle, servos, rigid tapping, etc. All of their machines use 
> PathPilot which is really LinuxCNC with a pretty face. Factory 
> electrics are fully documented, there are many users willing to help 
> with modifications and the machines work "out of the box". They are 
> more expensive than the initial cost of what you have been considering 
> but instant gratification has value! Disclaimer: I have no financial 
> interest but have been a happy user for many years.

What I have found is that there aren't many in the used market, means either
sales suck or everyones happy, and that leads to higher prices if and when
one does come to the auction block.

Thanks for your thoughts Ken, much appreciated.

Take care & stay well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Jon Elson]

On 02/07/2021 06:38 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
1. Any tool griping mechanism the has to squeeze a collet 
by drawing it lengthwise in a tapered seat has to 
compromise your tlo offsets in the tool table
I have fitted myself out with a set of R8 tool holders, and 
rarely use a collet anymore.  About the only thing in a 
collet is my edge finder, which may benefit from better 
centering.  It did take some effort to find some of the odd 
sizes of R8 end mill holders.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 07 February 2021 10:32:56 ken.stra...@gmail.com wrote:

> Please let me summarize your needs/desires for a new machine:
>   You have limited room
>   Want something larger and more rigid than your current machine
>   Must run on single phase 220 power
>   Ball screws
>   R8 or BT30 spindle
>   Maybe servos
>   Maybe rigid tapping
>   Controlled by LinuxCNC
>   Like me, you are elderly so not looking for a 10-year
> project but you relish the idea of making designing
> improvements and testing your designs.
>
Chuckle, I hearby nominate that last as understatement of the year.

I have reached that age, now 86, and with my heart history, where I don't 
even buy green banannas.  Yet my last checkup, 6 months after they 
worked on my heart the last time, they looked it over and said to make 
another appointment next January. That has to be confidence in the 
cath-labs work. ;-)

> Have you considered buying a new or used Tormach? Their 440 has a
> 42x36 footprint and an R8 spindle. Their 770MX has a 56x48 footprint,
> BT30 spindle, servos, rigid tapping, etc. All of their machines use
> PathPilot which is really LinuxCNC with a pretty face. Factory
> electrics are fully documented, there are many users willing to help
> with modifications and the machines work "out of the box". They are
> more expensive than the initial cost of what you have been considering
> but instant gratification has value! Disclaimer: I have no financial
> interest but have been a happy user for many years.

What I have found is that there aren't many in the used market, means 
either sales suck or everyones happy, and that leads to higher prices if 
and when one does come to the auction block.

Thanks for your thoughts Ken, much appreciated.

Take care & stay well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 07 February 2021 09:19:04 andy pugh wrote:

> On Sun, 7 Feb 2021 at 13:21, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Neat, but does it have ball screws and room on the table for my
> > converted BS-1?
>
> I doubt it. In fact the whole mill might be surprisingly tiny. I have
> no idea, it was just a random eBay search to see what you kind of
> machine you could get for your assumed budget that was made by an
> actual machine tool builder.

I'm making arrangements to drive over and look at it anyway. Nothing 
beats putting your fingerprints in the dust. Its about 375 miles one 
way.  If I like, pay the freight up front out of pocket and come home to 
make the purchase thru ebay from this machine and browser since ebay 
accepts business from it, but will not on his machine from there m/o a 
multiday hassle. Budget is not that big a problem since the insurance 
partially paid off. Dee was a sucker for insurance peddlars.  Space for 
it means pulling the crooked g0704 out before bringing it in. And more 
than likely hurting myself getting it backed into the space. But I think 
I'm a little smarter about such than I was 5 or 6 years ago putting the 
go704 where it is.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[ken.strauss]

Please let me summarize your needs/desires for a new machine:
  You have limited room
  Want something larger and more rigid than your current machine
  Must run on single phase 220 power
  Ball screws
  R8 or BT30 spindle
  Maybe servos
  Maybe rigid tapping
  Controlled by LinuxCNC
  Like me, you are elderly so not looking for a 10-year
project but you relish the idea of making designing
improvements and testing your designs.

Have you considered buying a new or used Tormach? Their 440 has a 42x36
footprint and an R8 spindle. Their 770MX has a 56x48 footprint, BT30
spindle, servos, rigid tapping, etc. All of their machines use PathPilot
which is really LinuxCNC with a pretty face. Factory electrics are fully
documented, there are many users willing to help with modifications and the
machines work "out of the box". They are more expensive than the initial
cost of what you have been considering but instant gratification has value!
Disclaimer: I have no financial interest but have been a happy user for many
years.

-Original Message-
From: Gene Heskett  
Sent: February 7, 2021 8:20 AM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

On Saturday 06 February 2021 19:03:27 andy pugh wrote:

> On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 at 22:52, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > <https://www.ebay.com/itm/153638163890>
>
> The column does look to be of adequate size, unlike most.
>
> I still think you would possibly be better-served by a used industrial 
> machine.
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/264882512556

> Is cute, and has a horizontal spindle option too.

Neat, but does it have ball screws and room on the table for my converted
BS-1?  It looks like the knee is all the way down and if its tilted chuck
facing up, probably a bit over a foot high.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[andy pugh]

On Sun, 7 Feb 2021 at 13:21, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> Neat, but does it have ball screws and room on the table for my converted
> BS-1?

I doubt it. In fact the whole mill might be surprisingly tiny. I have
no idea, it was just a random eBay search to see what you kind of
machine you could get for your assumed budget that was made by an
actual machine tool builder.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 06 February 2021 19:03:27 andy pugh wrote:

> On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 at 22:52, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > 
>
> The column does look to be of adequate size, unlike most.
>
> I still think you would possibly be better-served by a used industrial
> machine.
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/264882512556

> Is cute, and has a horizontal spindle option too.

Neat, but does it have ball screws and room on the table for my converted 
BS-1?  It looks like the knee is all the way down and if its tilted 
chuck facing up, probably a bit over a foot high.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[andy pugh]

On Sun, 7 Feb 2021 at 03:29, Jon Elson  wrote:

> want an R8 taper, vastly more tooling is available for it.
> Or, an NMTB30 taper, but that will
> make the holders more expensive.

Not that much more expensive, and they are better in all respects.

R8 only looks good compared to MT4.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[marcus . bowman]

On 2021-02-07 03:27, Jon Elson wrote:

For a CNC retrofit, you really want
ballscrews, why not find a machine that comes with them from the
factory?

Having got into trouble some time ago when converting from ACME to 
ballscrews, I endorse Jon's view.
The problem with ballscres is that you may need to machine to sadle or 
the table casting to accommodate the nuts. Machining a stable casting 
always invites trouble (warping) and my experience suggests that while 
we are always optimistic that it will be fine, its simply won't.


Marcus


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Jon Elson]

On 02/06/2021 04:59 PM, Mark Johnsen wrote:

Hi Gene,

I always had an eye on the Rongfu RF-45.  Here's one like it for a tad more
than the one you have your eye on and might not include shipping:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Acra-RF-45-Gear-Head-Mill-Drill-VERTICAL-MILL-9-1-2-x32-1-4-1-HP-R-8-60-1500-R/154321408389?hash=item23ee45d185:g:lzkAAOSwK61gHtvc



R8 is a plus, but top speed is 1550 RPM, even worse.

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Jon Elson]

On 02/06/2021 04:50 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

Greetings all;

My patience with the GO704 is about used up. I've the sheckles now to
replace it with something that might be better, and this one looks as if
it might scratch the itch. I'd like to get a bridgeport style but simply
do not have the room for it in the garage.


Well, I see a few issues.  First, it has an MT4 spindle 
taper. Really, for this size machine, you
want an R8 taper, vastly more tooling is available for it.  
Or, an NMTB30 taper, but that will

make the holders more expensive.

Top spindle speed is 2100 RPM.  That's WAY too slow.  I am 
limited to 2800 RPM on my 1J Bridgeport without overspeeding 
the motor, and I find that to be a limitation.


It has a 3 phase motor, but a VFD will take care of that.  I 
assume it has Acme or sqare-thread screws.  For a CNC 
retrofit, you really want ballscrews, why not find a machine 
that comes with them from the factory?


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 06 February 2021 21:36:35 Brent Loschen wrote:

> How about something like this
> rtical-mill-r2e4-in-lebanon-nj>Gene?  My LCNC conversion to one of
> these was a piece of cake, even for this LCNC novice!  A little more
> spend up front than the one you found, but probably long run cheaper
> since it's already CNC'd with quality lead screws and powerful servo
> drives.  This one looks to be in great shape. Variable speed (split
> sheave), Hi/Low spindle.  It does need 220/3 phase power, which for me
> required a $350 rotary phase converter.

That convertor is a showstopper unless it is only the spindle that 
actually needs 3 phase, in which case I'd strip out the stuff that can 
run on 220 single phase, and put a much more efficient VFD on the 
spindle.  Is the spindle already encoded? If decent resolution that 
would save a few sheckels. I'd have to measure and see if it would fit 
in the g0704's space, looks to be a bit too wide.  I siged up for some 
email on it though.

Thanks Brent.
[...]

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Brent Loschen]

How about something like this 
Gene?  
My LCNC conversion to one of these was a piece of cake, even for this 
LCNC novice!  A little more spend up front than the one you found, but 
probably long run cheaper since it's already CNC'd with quality lead 
screws and powerful servo drives.  This one looks to be in great shape.  
Variable speed (split sheave), Hi/Low spindle.  It does need 220/3 phase 
power, which for me required a $350 rotary phase converter.



On 2/6/2021 5:33 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Saturday 06 February 2021 19:03:27 andy pugh wrote:


On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 at 22:52, Gene Heskett  wrote:



The column does look to be of adequate size, unlike most.

I still think you would possibly be better-served by a used industrial
machine.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264882512556

A Hardinge would be nice, but how hard is it to put motors on?

Is cute, and has a horizontal spindle option too.

But this is lovely, and has tooling:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/353246842626


Yes, but is 30" deeper than I have room for.


Neither is a trivial CNC conversion, though.


Cheers, Gene Heskett



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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 06 February 2021 19:03:27 andy pugh wrote:

> On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 at 22:52, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > 
>
> The column does look to be of adequate size, unlike most.
>
> I still think you would possibly be better-served by a used industrial
> machine.
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/264882512556

A Hardinge would be nice, but how hard is it to put motors on?
>
> Is cute, and has a horizontal spindle option too.
>
> But this is lovely, and has tooling:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/353246842626
>
Yes, but is 30" deeper than I have room for.

> Neither is a trivial CNC conversion, though.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[andy pugh]

On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 at 22:52, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> 

The column does look to be of adequate size, unlike most.

I still think you would possibly be better-served by a used industrial machine.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264882512556

Is cute, and has a horizontal spindle option too.

But this is lovely, and has tooling:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/353246842626

Neither is a trivial CNC conversion, though.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 06 February 2021 18:29:26 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Forget it.  Has MT4 taper.  Go R8 minimum.
> John
>
I don't know how I got the idea, but I think it can also be an r8, in 
which case I wouldn't need the first $250 in tooling.

One of the questions I'll have to ask if the dealer opens a channel.

Thanks John.

> > -Original Message-
> > From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> > Sent: February-06-21 2:50 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: [Emc-users] machine opinion please
> >
> > Greetings all;
> >
> > My patience with the GO704 is about used up. I've the sheckles now
> > to replace it with something that might be better, and this one
> > looks as if it might scratch the itch. I'd like to get a bridgeport
> > style but simply do not have the room for it in the garage.
> >
> > <https://www.ebay.com/itm/153638163890>
> >
> > Among other things, the post mounting looks as if it could be
> > shimmed to square it if its not square, something the GO704 make
> > damnably difficult because the bolts go in from the rear, not the
> > top.
> >
> > However, this dealers description is a bit sparse. No gear shift
> > data etc.  Does anyone recognize the maker so I could look up all
> > the sales propaganda?
> >
> > Thanks all.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> > respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
> > Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
> >
> >
> > ___
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>
> ___
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 06 February 2021 17:59:07 Mark Johnsen wrote:

> Hi Gene,
>
> I always had an eye on the Rongfu RF-45.  Here's one like it for a tad
> more than the one you have your eye on and might not include shipping:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Acra-RF-45-Gear-Head-Mill-Drill-VERTICAL-MILL
>-9-1-2-x32-1-4-1-HP-R-8-60-1500-R/154321408389?hash=item23ee45d185:g:lz
>kAAOSwK61gHtvc
>
> I don't know if the bolts go in from the top or rear like your G0704,
> so something to look at.
>
> Rongfu has a website w/ info on it:
> https://www.rongfu.com/product-rf-45.html
>
> Mark

That one is quite a bit lighter weight, GW is 1100 lbs, and the post is 
at least 2" wider on the link I gave. Which also has a bigger spindle, 
either r8 or MT4 I think.

Thanks though, Mark.
>
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[John Dammeyer]

Forget it.  Has MT4 taper.  Go R8 minimum.
John

> -Original Message-
> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> Sent: February-06-21 2:50 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: [Emc-users] machine opinion please
> 
> Greetings all;
> 
> My patience with the GO704 is about used up. I've the sheckles now to
> replace it with something that might be better, and this one looks as if
> it might scratch the itch. I'd like to get a bridgeport style but simply
> do not have the room for it in the garage.
> 
> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/153638163890>
> 
> Among other things, the post mounting looks as if it could be shimmed to
> square it if its not square, something the GO704 make damnably difficult
> because the bolts go in from the rear, not the top.
> 
> However, this dealers description is a bit sparse. No gear shift data
> etc.  Does anyone recognize the maker so I could look up all the sales
> propaganda?
> 
> Thanks all.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Chris Albertson]

Looks to be about the same price (or even more) as a used Bridgeport.  Does
this REALLY use less floor space than a Bridgeport?   How much less, looks
to be about 6".One advantage of the Bridgeport mill is there is loads
of collective experience about how to do a first-class CNC conversion.  And
parts like ball-screw kits are inexpensive.

In the end, it comes down to what kind of parts you plan to make.  I don't
have much need for parts larger than will fit in my hand so the mini-mill
is OK.   But I think the next step up is a "full-size" machine.

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 2:52 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> Greetings all;
>
> My patience with the GO704 is about used up. I've the sheckles now to
> replace it with something that might be better, and this one looks as if
> it might scratch the itch. I'd like to get a bridgeport style but simply
> do not have the room for it in the garage.
>
> 
>
> Among other things, the post mounting looks as if it could be shimmed to
> square it if its not square, something the GO704 make damnably difficult
> because the bolts go in from the rear, not the top.
>
> However, this dealers description is a bit sparse. No gear shift data
> etc.  Does anyone recognize the maker so I could look up all the sales
> propaganda?
>
> Thanks all.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
>
>
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>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Mark Johnsen]

Hi Gene,

I always had an eye on the Rongfu RF-45.  Here's one like it for a tad more
than the one you have your eye on and might not include shipping:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Acra-RF-45-Gear-Head-Mill-Drill-VERTICAL-MILL-9-1-2-x32-1-4-1-HP-R-8-60-1500-R/154321408389?hash=item23ee45d185:g:lzkAAOSwK61gHtvc

I don't know if the bolts go in from the top or rear like your G0704, so
something to look at.

Rongfu has a website w/ info on it:
https://www.rongfu.com/product-rf-45.html

Mark

>
>

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[Emc-users] machine opinion please

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings all;

My patience with the GO704 is about used up. I've the sheckles now to 
replace it with something that might be better, and this one looks as if 
it might scratch the itch. I'd like to get a bridgeport style but simply 
do not have the room for it in the garage.



Among other things, the post mounting looks as if it could be shimmed to 
square it if its not square, something the GO704 make damnably difficult 
because the bolts go in from the rear, not the top.

However, this dealers description is a bit sparse. No gear shift data 
etc.  Does anyone recognize the maker so I could look up all the sales 
propaganda?

Thanks all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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