After writing an ES6-ES5 compiler, I've come to the conclusion that ES5
*is* an intermediary language. For dynamic, duck-typed languages it's not
so bad.
I always found the Dart people's arguments the most persuasive:
https://www.dartlang.org/articles/why-not-bytecode/
Basically, any language
On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 10:18 PM, C. Scott Ananian ecmascr...@cscott.netwrote:
On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Mameri, Fred (HBO)
fred.mam...@hbo.comwrote:
maintaining performance and debuggability would be nice. But for me,
the main benefit of the bytecode is having my engineering team
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Florian Bösch pya...@gmail.com wrote
Far as I see it, the discussion isn't really about bytecode. It's about
that you can't quickly/easily tack onto JS everything that's required to
make it a good virtual machine you can target from another language. asm.js
Well, if you're simply going to come up with a bytecode to match JS, then
you're gonna have the same kinds of issues that typescript, asm.js, dart,
etc. have to target it as a compile target. So if you want to make a VM
that's a good compile target, ye're gonna have to eventually discuss what
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 3:46 PM, Florian Bösch pya...@gmail.com wrote:
Well, if you're simply going to come up with a bytecode to match JS, then
you're gonna have the same kinds of issues that typescript, asm.js, dart,
etc. have to target it as a compile target. So if you want to make a VM
So just so I get this straight. You're talking about a bytecode format,
which implies some kind of revamped features/VM to run it, but you won't be
discussing anything other than ECMAScript as the targeting semantic. Sorry
to say, but then that's a pretty useless discussion entirely.
On Mon, May
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Florian Bösch pya...@gmail.com wrote:
So just so I get this straight. You're talking about a bytecode format,
which implies some kind of revamped features/VM to run it, but you won't be
discussing anything other than ECMAScript as the targeting semantic. Sorry
Well, it is a thread on bytecode, that had a discussion on bytecode, but
sure, whatever.
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 4:07 PM, Till Schneidereit
t...@tillschneidereit.net wrote:
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Florian Bösch pya...@gmail.com wrote:
So just so I get this straight. You're talking
iteration). Value objects for more
numeric types are coming.
Also, the Harmony era has JS as better target for compilers as an
explicit goal.
So it seems to me worthwhile to talk about certain multi-language VM
design issues. Bytecode in general, perhaps a standard, fast,
zero-verification
Le 14/05/2014 19:13, Axel Rauschmayer a écrit :
What is the best “bytecode isn’t everything” article that exists? The
“the web needs bytecode” meme comes up incredibly often, I’d like to
have something good to point to, as an answer.
This one looks good:
http://mozakai.blogspot.de/2013/05
these libraries still, and
that means performance of those libraries is extremely important to end _users_.
Regarding the original topic of this thread: I think there have been many many
prior discussions of a standardised bytecode on es-discuss, and people should
really be reading those before bringing
Regarding the original topic of this thread: I think there have been many
many prior discussions of a standardised bytecode on es-discuss, and people
should really be reading those before bringing this up again. It’s not
going to happen as no one has ever demonstrated an actual benefit over
of a standardised bytecode on es-discuss, and people
should really be reading those before bringing this up again. It’s not
going to happen as no one has ever demonstrated an actual benefit over
simply using JS.
I don't think anybody on this thread was trying to debate it. Axel was
just hoping
discussions of a standardised bytecode on es-discuss, and people
should really be reading those before bringing this up again. It’s not
going to happen as no one has ever demonstrated an actual benefit over
simply using JS.
—Oliver
___
es-discuss
I kind of feel that even if such a bytecode existed, it should be immaterial to
the design of ES. What I'm trying to say is that probably a better place for
this discussion is at the web standards level. This decision can be completely
outside of the design of any individual language, provided
On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Mameri, Fred (HBO) fred.mam...@hbo.comwrote:
maintaining performance and debuggability would be nice. But for me, the
main benefit of the bytecode is having my engineering team be able to adopt
newer versions of the language at our convenience (instead
Also TypeScript
On May 16, 2014 12:49 PM, Mameri, Fred (HBO) fred.mam...@hbo.com wrote:
I kind of feel that even if such a bytecode existed, it should be
immaterial to the design of ES. What I’m trying to say is that probably a
better place for this discussion is at the web standards level
It's my understanding that the vast majority of the CLR's dynamic
language support is at the runtime level, not the bytecode level. The
bytecode is strongly typed (with lots of instructions/mechanisms for
boxing, unboxing and type casts), and dynamic support is done through
something called
...@luminance.org wrote:
It's my understanding that the vast majority of the CLR's dynamic
language support is at the runtime level, not the bytecode level. The
bytecode is strongly typed (with lots of instructions/mechanisms for
boxing, unboxing and type casts), and dynamic support is done through
think it's quite relevant, since we transform to LLVM IR only after
dynamic type inference has already happened - so the first N (for large N)
executions of any code do not involve LLVM IR. Typical bytecode systems will
use the bytecode as the basic underlying truth.
Too bad they are testing
happened - so the first N (for
large N) executions of any code do not involve LLVM IR. Typical bytecode
systems will use the bytecode as the basic underlying truth.
Too bad they are testing from 2007 libraries such Prototype and
inheritance.js :P
We test many things.
-Filip
On Thu, May
What is the best “bytecode isn’t everything” article that exists? The “the web
needs bytecode” meme comes up incredibly often, I’d like to have something good
to point to, as an answer.
This one looks good:
http://mozakai.blogspot.de/2013/05/the-elusive-universal-web-bytecode.html
Thanks
Axel Rauschmayer wrote:
What is the best “bytecode isn’t everything” article that exists? The
“the web needs bytecode” meme comes up incredibly often, I’d like to
have something good to point to, as an answer.
This one looks good:
http://mozakai.blogspot.de/2013/05/the-elusive-universal-web
a...@rauschma.de
Home: http://rauschma.de
Blog: http://2ality.com
On 15.05.2014, at 03:02, Brendan Eich bren...@mozilla.org wrote:
Axel Rauschmayer wrote:
What is the best “bytecode isn’t everything” article that exists? The “the
web needs bytecode” meme comes up incredibly often, I’d like to have
to learn from the JVM, other than no
matter how good/bad your bytecode is, other factors may dominate. That
is: I would doubt most conclusions about bytecodes drawn from the example
of the JVM, since I don't believe the bytecode design was a first order
effect on its trajectory to date.
That said, my
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