Re: [EVDL] Heating system
I have been following the heater thread and since I have that Webasco diesel fired heater in my G-van just out of curiosity checked what they cost. Holy cannolis!! 2500-5000? Even on Ebay they are bringing some big time money. I may have to do a surgical removal on that puppy. While I was digging around under the engine (now controller) cover I reacquainted myself with the cool GM accessory drive setup for the alternator/ AC / PS/ PB. Hmm, a very tasty looking large DC motor driving all those loads indeed..LOL, may have to start considering parting this thing out. Dach. Do what you can, with what you have, where you are - Theodore Roosevelt On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 9:22 PM, Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: From: jerry freedomev via EV ev@lists.evdl.org Of all heaters diesel!!! Come on!! What I forgot to mention is that I make my own biodiesel from waste vegetable oil. Still, diesel has the highest energy density of common liquid fuels, and can be burned very cleanly, especially in external combustion situations. The Webasto website says their hydronic heaters are 97% efficient! The carbon impact of diesel is arguably less than that of LPG, which has a lot less energy content, and which requires a lot more processing. Diesel heat is also arguably less polluting than electric heat powered by a coal generating station, probably by a LONG SHOT, since the hydronic diesel heat is 90+% efficient, and the coal is at best 30% efficient by the time it gets turned into electricity. Clean energy is less energy. -- Ozzie Zehner Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141029/565228d4/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
Jan, I agree with you that sometimes diesel might be a great choice. What some people fail to recognize is that bio diesel can be fairly simply made in your garage. Yes, one can have a windmill on the roof or some other complicated scheme that is the ne + ultra but sometimes the simplest most effective solution is the best for a given situation. Many years ago when I was working with a Twike project I found it very enlightening that this really cool, highly over-engineered over built and overpriced EV used 2 $15 unmodified Braun hot combs as the defroster/heater. They ran fine on DC pack voltage just couldn't use the OEM switch to turn them off and on. I don't remember if they had a contactor or one just plugged them in, what I do remember was how well they worked on a rainy cold blustery day at Alameda! Would they work in Minnesota in the dead of winter in a full sized car? Maybe as defrosters but definitely not as heaters. In that case I have a couple of helicopter cabin heaters that I might consider using, LOL. Don't weigh much and put out quite a bit of heat and one could probably find a use for the exhaust flame. Keep on truckin, Dach. On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 1:03 AM, David Chapman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I have been following the heater thread and since I have that Webasco diesel fired heater in my G-van just out of curiosity checked what they cost. Holy cannolis!! 2500-5000? Even on Ebay they are bringing some big time money. I may have to do a surgical removal on that puppy. While I was digging around under the engine (now controller) cover I reacquainted myself with the cool GM accessory drive setup for the alternator/ AC / PS/ PB. Hmm, a very tasty looking large DC motor driving all those loads indeed..LOL, may have to start considering parting this thing out. Dach. Do what you can, with what you have, where you are - Theodore Roosevelt On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 9:22 PM, Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: From: jerry freedomev via EV ev@lists.evdl.org Of all heaters diesel!!! Come on!! What I forgot to mention is that I make my own biodiesel from waste vegetable oil. Still, diesel has the highest energy density of common liquid fuels, and can be burned very cleanly, especially in external combustion situations. The Webasto website says their hydronic heaters are 97% efficient! The carbon impact of diesel is arguably less than that of LPG, which has a lot less energy content, and which requires a lot more processing. Diesel heat is also arguably less polluting than electric heat powered by a coal generating station, probably by a LONG SHOT, since the hydronic diesel heat is 90+% efficient, and the coal is at best 30% efficient by the time it gets turned into electricity. Clean energy is less energy. -- Ozzie Zehner Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141029/565228d4/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141029/d038cbc5/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] `91 G-van with 5 K miles for sale (was Webasco diesel heater)
While checking out the Webasco Diesel fired heater tonight I got to thinking about my cargo version G-van and the likely hood of me finding batteries that I can afford (investing in acreage right now instead) and the fact I have 2 VWs I want to convert. I have decided that I am sick of seeing a perfectly good vehicle sitting around unused so I am pondering either selling it complete (batteries not included) or parting it out. The 60hp Nelco sep ex motor, 1 ton V-drive and 216v Chloride controller might be good for someone wanting to build a large EV pickup truck or some such. Then I will buy the AC motor and controller I have my eye on and finish one bug sooner rather than later. If anyone has a serious interest in either the entire van or complete drivetrain drop me a line off list. BTW, it has a little over 5k miles on it. Dach. PS, Conversely, if you have 38-40 good usable STM 200 or similar nicads I would love to hear about them. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141029/8d6f2af6/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] EVLN: Inexperienced pro-EV-writer fails self on Focus-EV-trip dare
Trundling-ashamed+nervous-inexperience chose to ice-drive back home % Writers should never take a trip until they are experienced drivers: do not select L2-only EVs for unplanned long trips (though there was plenty of public EVSE to stop-n-use), do not use an automaker's on-board EVSE-nav system, use plugshare.com or afdc.energy.gov , drive a constant-60mph on the 1st trip to overcome self-imposed fears (mentally plan trip in-advance), etc. % http://www.washingtonpost.com/cars/on-wheels-the-2014-ford-focus-electric-taking-you-only-so-far/2014/10/16/3648cb2e-5321-11e4-892e-602188e70e9c_story.html On Wheels: The 2014 Ford Focus Electric, taking you only so far By Warren Brown Columnist October 17 2014 [image http://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_1484w/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2014/10/16/Production/Sunday/SunBiz/Images/15FocusElectric_EV_M_W6_F_RGB.jpg The Ford Focus Electric is intended for around-town use. (Ford Motor Co. / ) ] ROSEDALE, Md. — I drove here on a dare — 6.8 miles northeast of Baltimore, 51.4 miles north of my home in Arlington, Va., according to my MapsGalaxy app. A precise knowledge of driving distance was essential, as was made clear by a question on the MyFord Touch screen of the 2014 Ford Focus Electric: “Will you recharge at destination?” It was a polite version of: “Don’t try to drive back home without first recharging this car’s lithium-ion battery pack. You won’t make it.” Therein was the essence of the dare, and one of the major impediments to public acceptance of all-electric cars. It’s called “range anxiety.” The dare was put to me jokingly by an employee of the car-delivery company, Event Solutions International, whose East Coast offices are in Rosedale. The company was holding an open house. “So I guess you’ll drive the Focus to the party?” the delivery man asked mischievously upon parking another vehicle in my Arlington driveway. I immediately said, “No!” Drive a little electric car along Interstate 95 heading north in midday traffic? “Are you nuts?” He smiled at my hypocrisy. I am a longtime proponent of electric vehicles. They reduce fossil-fuel consumption and air pollution. Yet, faced with a 50-mile drive on a high-speed highway, I was backing out. And didn’t the man who brought me the car make the same drive south to my home on the same interstate under the same conditions? I felt ashamed. I plugged the Focus Electric into my 120-volt “slow-charge” home charging station. “Slow” means 20 hours to get the battery pack up to full capacity, a 91-mile range on the car’s charge meter. But I couldn’t tell whether that reading was a sly promotion built in by Ford’s marketing people. The Environmental Protection Agency says the Focus Electric has a 76-mile driving range fully charged. A “quick-charge” 240-volt home charging station offered by AeroVironment would yield the EPA’s full-charge range in three to four hours. With 91 miles showing on the charge meter, I set out for Rosedale. I was cautious— I drove with no radio, no air conditioning, nothing that would drain battery life. The Focus Electric is engineered to run at a top speed of 84 mph. But the faster you go, the more battery juice you use. And the car is equipped with regenerative braking, a system that uses braking energy to support the battery charge. Still, I decided to religiously adhere to a 65-mph speed limit. That wasn’t easy. I-95 is a playground for speed scofflaws and law enforcement officials alike. The scofflaws enjoy exceeding posted speed limits by at least 10 mph. Police enjoy snagging the really egregious speeders, or those speeding in cars whose exterior designs are so outrageously flamboyant they practically beg to be ticketed. Trundling along at 65 gets you no love from the police and no respect from the speeders. You’re in everybody’s way, gumming up the catch-me-if-you-can game, which both sides seem to enjoy. I slowpoked in the right and middle lanes, keeping a keen eye on the charge meter, which had dropped to 40 miles remaining by the time I got to Baltimore. The mathematics didn’t make sense. I had figured I’d have at least 60 miles left at that point. But there it was — 40 miles and dropping rapidly. I grew nervous, hoping the onboard navigation system was on target as it guided me into the Baltimore suburb of Rosedale. My anxiousness was increased by the growing choppiness of the car’s acceleration. The battery pack made handling was less than desirable, too. But the navigation worked perfectly. I arrived at ESI with 30 miles left on the charge meter. I thought myself the hero until I was let in on the real joke: I had been set up. My ego overrode my common sense, and I fell for the ploy. “Warren,” said my ESI delivery man, “you do know that the Focus Electric is just a neighborhood car, don’t you?” As in not really meant for highways such as I-95, as in does well in acutely local travel, as in I could run around Arlington endlessly — driving by day and charging by night —
[EVDL] EVLN: Ford sez 'We could make a Tesla EV' ... Yeah, that's the ticket!
http://www.tgdaily.com/mobile/129016-ford-ceo-says-they-could-build-a-tesla-if-they-wanted-to Ford CEO says they could build a Tesla if they wanted to October 24, 2014 - by Guy Wright [image http://cdn8.tgdaily.com/sites/tgdaily/files/styles/article/public/images/original/ford_electric1.jpg?itok=eH1gBONB (old Ford electric quadra-cycle) ] During a conference call today with Wall Street investment analysts and reporters, Ford’s CEO Mark Fields said that Ford could build a ‘Tesla Model S’-like vehicle if it wanted to. Fields said that such a car would be “consistent with our product philosophy,” and added that the company has already been studying a Tesla Model S. “We drove it. We took it apart. We put it back together and we drove it again,” he said. The question, however, is even if Ford could build their own version of the Tesla Model S, could they actually sell them. In spite of extensive price cuts to the Ford Focus Electric so far the company has only managed to sell fewer than 4,000 of its only all-electric vehicle since it first hit the showrooms in 2011 (Tesla has sold roughly 25,000 Model S cars world wide). Now hovering around $30K the Focus Electric boasts a range of somewhere just south of 80 miles while the Tesla Model S can go roughly 220 miles with the standard 60-kwh battery and about 280 miles if you spring for the optional 85-kwh battery for $10K more. Of course the Tesla Model S (with the beefed up battery) will set you back about $80K. And of course the Tesla Model S looks like a luxury car while the Focus looks like a…well, a little electric car. Fields’ comments remind me of that person who performed the first back flip on skis that was featured in a television commercial many years ago. Until he did it everyone would have sworn that the trick was impossible. Today Olympic skiers are doing quadruple back-spinning twisty impossible tricks that go far beyond a simple backflip. Go back in time and ask Fields if it was possible to build a luxury all-electric car that could go faster than 100mph and travel nearly 300 miles on a single charge he would have told you it was impossible. Now that Tesla has proven that it can be done Fields comments sound a bit like “Okay yea, I guess you could build a car like that if you did it that way.” And “We could have built one like that if we wanted to, we just didn’t want to.” [© tgdaily.com] ... [video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx3wrfhQaqk ] Yeah, yeah ... that's the ticket! http://snltranscripts.jt.org/85/85bliar.phtml http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2014/10/24/ford-tesla-mark-fields/17848767/ Fields: Ford has expertise to do Tesla-like car James R. Healey October 24, 2014 Ford said it has no plan to emulate the Tesla Model S -- a big, four-door hatchback sedan. But a larger vehicle of some kind, with greater range and better performance than the Focus electric, would fit Ford’s lineup and its emphasis on technology, the automaker said. [image] (fields Photo: AFP/Getty Images) Ford CEO Mark Fields said the company has the expertise and ability to build a Tesla-style full-size, high-tech, high-performance, long-range electric vehicle. Fields stopped short of saying Ford will do so, but did say, “It’s consistent with our product philosophy.” Ford’s only all-electric is the small Focus electric. It also sells plug-in hybrids. Fields made the Tesla comment Friday during a conference call with Wall Street investment analysts and reporters following Ford’s third quarter earnings announcement. Ford said it has no plan to emulate the Tesla Model S — a big, four-door hatchback sedan. But a larger vehicle of some kind, with greater range and better performance than the Focus electric, would fit Ford’s lineup and its emphasis on technology, the automaker said. In the conference call, Fields said Ford has the engineering and manufacturing sophistication to do such a model, with the range and quickness that characterize the Model S. Ford has a Tesla Model S and, Fields said, “We drove it. We took it apart. We put it back together and we drove it again.” [© 2014 www.freep.com] http://gas2.org/2014/10/24/ford-ceo-says-build-tesla/ Ford CEO Says They Could Build A Tesla Too [image] 2012-Ford-Focus-Electric Having invested more into plug-in hybrids than battery electric cars, Ford seems to have ceded the market to more serious contenders for now. But new CEO Mark Fields told USA Today that Ford could built an electric car to compete with Tesla, and such a product would be “consistent with our product philosophy.” Fields replaced Alan Mulally this summer after the former Boeing CEO gave Ford a top-to-bottom makeover that included shrugging off all but two brands and cutting down on the number of platforms to just a few. But one area Mulally seemed disinterested in was pure electric vehicles, giving the Focus Electric a tiny marketing budget but one of the highest MSRPs at $39,995. Ford has since slashed $10,000 off the
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
From: David Chapman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org I have been following the heater thread and since I have that Webasco diesel fired heater in my G-van just out of curiosity checked what they cost. Holy cannolis!! 2500-5000? Even on Ebay they are bringing some big time money. As I mentioned, troll marinas and Craig's List. I got my Webasto for $400 from an ad on a marina bulletin board. If the energy crisis forces us to diminish automobile use in the cities, stops us from building highways and covering the country with concrete and asphalt, forces us to rehabilitate the railroads, causes us to invest in mass transportation and limits the waste of electrical energy, one can only assume that the Arab nations and the big oil companies have united to save the American Republic. -- John Kenneth Galbraith Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
On 2014-10-28, at 15:29, Lawrence Winiarski wrote: Sure seems to me the answer is to use the waste heat off the electric motor. (there's plenty of it in normal driving). This might be convenient if converting an old air-cooled VW, which already has ducting for cab heat via engine cooling. Otherwise, it's probably more trouble than it's worth, no? Particularly since the electric motor is much more efficient than the ICE -- for equal power, you're only going to have about 15% of heat available from the engine. (Assuming the ICE is 33% efficient, and the electric is 90% efficient.) There are three types of friends: those like food, without which you can't live; those like medicine, which you need occasionally; and those like an illness, which you never want. -- Solomon Ibn Gabirol Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
Sure seems to me the answer is to use the waste heat off the electric motor. (there's plenty of it in normal driving). On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 2:52 PM, Larry Gales via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Some time ago I did some calculations showing that if you used gasoline for heating an EV for all the heating you do for the cabin and the batteries, you would only consume 7-8 gallons of fuel per year. But if you only used it when needed, such as for long trips where you need maximum range for your EV, you would only consume about one gallon per year, an absolutely trivial amount. So I think heating with fuel should be a standard feature for electric cars. -- Larry Gales On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Perhaps this is a sacrilege on this list, but I'm planning to provide cabin heat in my 1981 Electranagon with... diesel fuel! I got hold of an old Webasto hydronic heater. You can find them used among boat people, bulletin boards at marinas, etc. They sip a tiny bit of diesel fuel, and turn it into fairly large quantities of hot water, which I plan to run through my Vanagon's heater core. Electricity is (as HT Odum would put it) a high transformity fuel, meaning it is highly refined and contains a lot of embedded energy. Why waste it heating up resistors? A 3kW electric heater running for an hour uses up over ten percent of a typical EV battery, whereas one tank of diesel will last me all winter. Anyway, just a thought... Jan From: Al via EV ev@lists.evdl.org It's that time of year, time to get the heater installed in my EV. When money becomes the deciding factor in food marketing, some very bad things can happen. I keep thinking about how during the famine in Ireland, the country’s grain was sold in the higher English commodity markets to pay rents to absentee landlords while the Irish people starved. Now that’s what I call real price discovery. -- Gene Logsdon Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Larry Gales -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141028/4ee53fdb/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141028/61be64eb/attachment-0001.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
On 28 Oct 2014 at 15:29, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote: Sure seems to me the answer is to use the waste heat off the electric motor. (there's plenty of it in normal driving). I'm not so sure. Sebring/Vanguard tried that in the Comuta-Cars (and maybe some Citicars). The ran forced air into the motor for cooling. It was collected in a diverter box so it could be vented to the open air in summer, or sent into the cabin for heat in the winter. Electric motors of course are WAY more efficient than ICEs, so there's not so much waste heat. I had a C-car in the late 1980s, and the heater had no cabin-warming or defrosting effect that I could discern. However, it did bring in some hot-oil stink (the seal between differential and motor always leaked a bit) and a little ozone odor. If you were using a heat pump anyway, it would probably make some sense to harvest the small amount of waste heat from the motor. Otherwise, it's probably going to help much. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Heating system
Sure seems to me the answer is to use the waste heat off the electric motor. (there's plenty of it in normal driving). I'm not so sure. Sebring/Vanguard tried that in the Comuta-Cars (and maybe some Citicars). The ran forced air into the motor for cooling. Typical AC motor is probably around 85% efficient so 15% = heat. 100 amps at 150 volts = 15kw. 15% of 15kw =2.25 kw of heat. Seems to me thats a fair amount of heat going to waste. The problem is not that it's not there. It's low grade heat (i.e. low temperature, because you don't want the windings hot) so to harvest it, you can't just bring in outside cool air through the motor. You'd need to run cabin air recirculated and have a seperate system for fresh air. I'm not familliar with the car you mentioned. How did they do it? -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141029/a845a5ef/attachment-0001.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: Fireworks in Oct? ...
On 10/29/2014 21:55, brucedp5 via EV wrote: % OK, so it is getting about that time (of day) for this ol' man to start getting sleepy in the evening, and let the video recordings take over as I (hopefully) drift off to get a couple hours sleep, so that I can pump out a few select news items I have previously prepared and queued ... When suddenly at 9pm pst fireworks start going off ... (huh?) (Some neighbor is shooting them off) Your Giants won the World Series - grumble, moan, complain (I'm a Dodger fan) -- 73 - Jim Walls - K6CCC j...@k6ccc.org Ofc: 818-548-4804 http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/ AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395 ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
