Re: [EVDL] Aluminum-Air-Water Primary Battery Backup for LiIon Pack

2015-08-05 Thread John Lussmyer via EV 
On Wed Aug 05 10:15:20 PDT 2015 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>Wouldn't you like to have one of these as a backup when your LiIons go
>dead? For 60 pounds of weight, you'd get 1000 miles of range, with a few
>hundred miles of range between each plain water fill-up.
>
>If the price was right, this might be a smart way to go. 

That is the HUGE unanswered question.


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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum-Air-Water Primary Battery Backup for LiIon Pack

2015-08-05 Thread Sean Korb via EV 
If it's cheaper than renting an ICE car for long trips or even the same
price, that could really work.

sean

On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 1:19 PM, Bill Dennis via EV 
wrote:

> The recharge efficiency, I believe, is between only 15% - 20%.  But I don't
> see it as much of an issue, since most people would be using the aluminum
> battery only as a range extender, not in daily use.  The Phinergy test car
> relies mostly on lithium cells for its primary mobility, employing the
> Al-air battery  to recharge the lithium cells during extended trips.
>
> When using the Phinergy cells, you need to stop and replace the electrolyte
> every 200-to-300 miles.  The aluminum itself lasts longer.  Interesting, I
> think the battery actually gains weight as you use it, since the
> atmospheric
> oxygen that combines with the aluminum stays within the cell until you pump
> it out and exchange it for fresh electrolyte at the above-mentioned 200-300
> miles.
>
> Bill
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
> Administrator
> via EV
> Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2015 10:40 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum-Air-Water Primary Battery Backup for LiIon
> Pack
>
> Metal-air batteries seem to be pretty good for hearing aids.  For EVs, I'm
> not so sure.  The main problem is that they're primary batteries - not
> rechargeable.  When they're discharged, you have to rebuild them.  (Some
> people call them metal fuel cells.)
>
> Alcan and Unique Mobility worked with Aluminum-Air batteries in the late
> 1980s.  They had a prototype system running in an Electrek EV (UM's
> intriguing limited production purpose-built EV) but eventually concluded it
> wasn't practical.
>
> In the 1990s, an Israeli company, Electric Fuel Corporation, developed Zn-
> Air batteries with rebuildable zinc "cassettes."  They collaborated with
> the
> German Post on a trial program of EVs using these batteries.  After several
> years, the Post concluded that it wasn't a viable system. Electric Fuel
> seems to have pretty much abandoned Zn-Air battery research and now
> concentrates on conventional battery chemistries for industrial, medical,
> and military uses.
>
> http://www.efbpower.com/oem/
>
> This isn't to say it's hopeless, just that there seem to be some
> substantial
> hurdles for metal-air batteries in EVs.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum-Air-Water Primary Battery Backup for LiIon Pack

2015-08-05 Thread Sean Korb via EV 
That could make some sense if they are inexpensive.  It could be used like
a spare tire or like we use jumpers on an ICE if the battery goes dead.
It's enough to get to the charging station if we miscalculate and get
stranded between urban centers.   It probably would make sense to have them
on a tow truck if it was cheap enough... that is, cheaper than a tow.

sean

On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 1:15 PM, len moskowitz via EV 
wrote:

> Ben wrote:
>
>
>  ...these batteries are not rechargeable.
>>
>
>
> I noted in the title that these are primary batteries.
>
>
> Wouldn't you like to have one of these as a backup when your LiIons go
> dead? For 60 pounds of weight, you'd get 1000 miles of range, with a few
> hundred miles of range between each plain water fill-up.
>
>
> If the price was right, this might be a smart way to go.
>
>
>
>  You'd have to re-refine the aluminum oxide into metallic aluminum...
>>
>
>
> Or exchange the anodes.
>
>
> If you used the pack only as a backup, you might never exhaust its
> capacity.
>
>
>
> Len Moskowitz
>
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
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>


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'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum-Air-Water Primary Battery Backup for LiIon Pack

2015-08-05 Thread Bill Dennis via EV 
The recharge efficiency, I believe, is between only 15% - 20%.  But I don't
see it as much of an issue, since most people would be using the aluminum
battery only as a range extender, not in daily use.  The Phinergy test car
relies mostly on lithium cells for its primary mobility, employing the
Al-air battery  to recharge the lithium cells during extended trips.

When using the Phinergy cells, you need to stop and replace the electrolyte
every 200-to-300 miles.  The aluminum itself lasts longer.  Interesting, I
think the battery actually gains weight as you use it, since the atmospheric
oxygen that combines with the aluminum stays within the cell until you pump
it out and exchange it for fresh electrolyte at the above-mentioned 200-300
miles.

Bill

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
via EV
Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2015 10:40 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aluminum-Air-Water Primary Battery Backup for LiIon Pack

Metal-air batteries seem to be pretty good for hearing aids.  For EVs, I'm
not so sure.  The main problem is that they're primary batteries - not
rechargeable.  When they're discharged, you have to rebuild them.  (Some
people call them metal fuel cells.) 

Alcan and Unique Mobility worked with Aluminum-Air batteries in the late
1980s.  They had a prototype system running in an Electrek EV (UM's
intriguing limited production purpose-built EV) but eventually concluded it
wasn't practical.  

In the 1990s, an Israeli company, Electric Fuel Corporation, developed Zn-
Air batteries with rebuildable zinc "cassettes."  They collaborated with the
German Post on a trial program of EVs using these batteries.  After several
years, the Post concluded that it wasn't a viable system. Electric Fuel
seems to have pretty much abandoned Zn-Air battery research and now
concentrates on conventional battery chemistries for industrial, medical,
and military uses.

http://www.efbpower.com/oem/

This isn't to say it's hopeless, just that there seem to be some substantial
hurdles for metal-air batteries in EVs.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum-Air-Water Primary Battery Backup for LiIon Pack

2015-08-05 Thread len moskowitz via EV 

Ben wrote:



 ...these batteries are not rechargeable.



I noted in the title that these are primary batteries.


Wouldn't you like to have one of these as a backup when your LiIons go 
dead? For 60 pounds of weight, you'd get 1000 miles of range, with a few 
hundred miles of range between each plain water fill-up.



If the price was right, this might be a smart way to go. 




 You'd have to re-refine the aluminum oxide into metallic aluminum...



Or exchange the anodes. 


If you used the pack only as a backup, you might never exhaust its 
capacity.




Len Moskowitz
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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum-Air-Water Primary Battery Backup for LiIon Pack

2015-08-05 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV 
Metal-air batteries seem to be pretty good for hearing aids.  For EVs, I'm 
not so sure.  The main problem is that they're primary batteries - not 
rechargeable.  When they're discharged, you have to rebuild them.  (Some 
people call them metal fuel cells.) 

Alcan and Unique Mobility worked with Aluminum-Air batteries in the late 
1980s.  They had a prototype system running in an Electrek EV (UM's 
intriguing limited production purpose-built EV) but eventually concluded it 
wasn't practical.  

In the 1990s, an Israeli company, Electric Fuel Corporation, developed Zn-
Air batteries with rebuildable zinc "cassettes."  They collaborated with the 
German Post on a trial program of EVs using these batteries.  After several 
years, the Post concluded that it wasn't a viable system. Electric Fuel 
seems to have pretty much abandoned Zn-Air battery research and now 
concentrates on conventional battery chemistries for industrial, medical, 
and military uses.

http://www.efbpower.com/oem/

This isn't to say it's hopeless, just that there seem to be some substantial 
hurdles for metal-air batteries in EVs.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Aluminum-Air-Water Primary Battery Backup for LiIon Pack

2015-08-05 Thread Ben Goren via EV 
On Aug 5, 2015, at 8:18 AM, len moskowitz via EV  wrote:

> 60 pounds of battery for 1000 miles of range

Before you get too excited...these batteries are not rechargeable. They work by 
combining the aluminum in the battery with atmospheric oxygen -- essentially, 
they burn the aluminum, releasing electrons in the process, and leaving behind 
aluminum oxide. The process isn't reversible -- at least, not by simply 
plugging it into the wall. You'd have to re-refine the aluminum oxide into 
metallic aluminum...which is a notoriously energy-intensive operation, 
something that was practically impossible before the invention of the induction 
furnace.

I don't know what the recycling efficiency is of these batteries, but I'm sure 
it's nowhere near the ~80%+ of a typical rechargeable battery's duty cycle. As 
such, though I'm sure these batteries will serve a vital purpose in the 
not-too-distant future...I'm also pretty sure that purpose won't be as an EV's 
primary traction battery.

b&
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[EVDL] Aluminum-Air-Water Primary Battery Backup for LiIon Pack

2015-08-05 Thread len moskowitz via EV 

60 pounds of battery for 1000 miles of range


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwxX2A041w0


http://www.phinergy.com/


https://youtu.be/k6kIJlgqezE




Len Moskowitz
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[EVDL] Aluminum-Air-Water Primary Battery Backup for LiIon Pack

2015-08-05 Thread len moskowitz via EV 

60 pounds of battery for 1000 miles of range


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwxX2A041w0http://www.phinergy.com/
https://youtu.be/k6kIJlgqezE




Len Moskowitz
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