Re: [EVDL] Insurance Forensic Eng crying wolf ... (does this explain why Insurers' EV-uptake is slow?)

[Roger Stockton via EV]

Cor van de Water wrote:

> Battery Disposal Cost:
> "When a battery-powered electric vehicle is involved in a collision,
>  the battery needs to be removed, discharged, frozen and then destroyed.
>  Getting rid of a large, lithium-ion battery can cost upwards of
> $30,000.00"
> Say what? Frozen? As in putting it into a freezer and freezing the
> battery?
> Why would anyone want to do that to a Lithium battery? Makes no sense at
> all.

Not a freezer: liquid nitrogen.  Apparently, this is actually one way that 
*damaged* Li batteries are (or have been) recycled: freeze them with liquid 
nitrogen to render them inert, then put them into a huge shredder.

It is not one of the ways mentioned in this paper, so perhaps it is no longer 
in use, or was never in widespread use?



Cheers,

Roger.



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Re: [EVDL] Insurance Forensic Eng crying wolf ... (does this explain why Insurers' EV-uptake is slow?)

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

I does read like he is fishing for work.  With no background data listed and to 
my mind obvious misleading statements.  There is also no mechanism on the part 
of the site to allow for comments on any article so one can only assume this is 
a essentially a fluff piece by the editorial department.

The only statement that is probably based on fact is he statement of the 
increased risk to pedestrians.  While it’s not really and issue of electric 
cars as such it does relate to the quietness of most modern cars.  I did find a 
IHS FAQ from April 2016 that suggested the hybrid and by extension electric 
cars pose a 39% increased risk of injury and low speed and 66% increased risk 
at very low speeds.  The recommendation was for ‘quiet’ car to have an 
artificial noise emitted when operating (presumably at these low speeds).  [ 
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/pedestrians-and-bicyclists/qanda 
 ].

It also suggests that pedestrian are more likely to be at fault in accidents by 
various margins depending on the state, source of the data and the study.

My take away is that Insurance Companies ought to be funding road safety in 
schools and driver education, not just raising premiums.

For the now it suggests everyone needs to be aware of their environment and to 
keep their eye and ears open when operating in areas where cars and pedestrians 
interact.  I know as a driver it can be very hard to watch three, or even four 
directions at once trying to anticipate whose going to run a yellow, when the 
pedestrian crossing indicator will come on, will the pedestrian wait for the 
light, is there a bike sneaking up the curb, etc. etc.  It’s a wonder sometime 
there are not more accidents.  I was taught to ensure I look a driver in the 
eye before crossing the road - not chatting to friends, listening to music or 
reading my email and to never assume I have the right of way even if I do.

Lawrence
 
> On Oct 30, 2016, at 05:37, paul dove via EV  wrote:
> 
> The have to pass the same crash tests of any vehicle. If it was hazardous 
> they would have found it by now.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 29, 2016, at 10:59 PM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> % Normally, I seek out only the positive EV news item for posting. But
>> sometimes I find what seems like an anti-EV release that might shed some
>> light on other points concerning EVs. I ask that for those interested, bring
>> up the URL (below) on your own (I did not want to post all their
>> mis-information as that only perpetuates their incorrect statements). I did
>> put a few of the key points you should examine (see below).
>> 
>> - ? Am I right in thinking the purpose of this Eng's statements, are to
>> promote his company's agenda ? If so, then this is not necessarily a
>> Koch-Bros funded anti-EV/misinformation  smear, but one that is intent on
>> helping drive business to that company ... (am I right?)
>> 
>> - Releases like this being sent out to Insurance companies will certainly
>> keep them from wanting to 'take a risk' on EVs, once they have read all the
>> overblown hype from the writer (his writing leans heavily on an 'EV sky is
>> falling' attitude) %
>> 
>> 
>> http://www.canadianautoworld.ca/industry-news/electric-vehicles-and-the-unique-risks-insurers-need-to-consider
>> Electric vehicles and the unique risks insurers need to consider
>> October 17, 2016  Chris K. Panasiewicz
>> 
>> ... Insurance companies need to consider the major risks of insuring these
>> lightweight, electric vehicles and ensure that premiums reflect the
>> potential risks associated with insuring them.
>> 
>> ... [EV] risk of injury can be higher and repairs and replacement parts can
>> be very costly. Here are some of the lesser-known concerns associated with
>> owning and driving electric vehicles.
>> 
>> Thermal Runaway ...
>> 
>> Fire on Impact ...
>> 
>> Constantly ‘Running’ ...
>> 
>> Proper Maintenance of Charging Stations ...
>> 
>> Risk of Collision Injuries ...
>> 
>> Risk to Pedestrians ...
>> 
>> ... electric vehicles posing twice the degree of accident and injury risk
>> when stopping, starting, slowing down, backing up, and entering or exiting
>> driveways ...
>> 
>> Battery Disposal Cost ...
>> 
>> Insurance companies need to be aware of the differences between gas-powered
>> and electric vehicles, and consider the different risks associated with
>> insuring them ...
>> 
>> Chris K. Panasiewicz, M.Sc., P.Eng., CFEI, is a consulting forensic engineer
>> who specializes in fire and explosions investigations and electrical
>> engineering. He is qualified as an expert witness in the Ontario Superior
>> Court of Justice and has investigated over 300 forensic incidents to date.
>> He has over 10 years of fire and explosions experience ...
>> [© 2016 Metroland Media Group]
>> ...
>> https://ca.linkedin.com/in/chris-panasiewicz-5aa48092
>> Chris 

Re: [EVDL] Insurance Forensic Eng crying wolf ... (does this explain why Insurers' EV-uptake is slow?)

[paul dove via EV]

The have to pass the same crash tests of any vehicle. If it was hazardous they 
would have found it by now.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 29, 2016, at 10:59 PM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> % Normally, I seek out only the positive EV news item for posting. But
> sometimes I find what seems like an anti-EV release that might shed some
> light on other points concerning EVs. I ask that for those interested, bring
> up the URL (below) on your own (I did not want to post all their
> mis-information as that only perpetuates their incorrect statements). I did
> put a few of the key points you should examine (see below).
> 
> - ? Am I right in thinking the purpose of this Eng's statements, are to
> promote his company's agenda ? If so, then this is not necessarily a
> Koch-Bros funded anti-EV/misinformation  smear, but one that is intent on
> helping drive business to that company ... (am I right?)
> 
> - Releases like this being sent out to Insurance companies will certainly
> keep them from wanting to 'take a risk' on EVs, once they have read all the
> overblown hype from the writer (his writing leans heavily on an 'EV sky is
> falling' attitude) %
> 
> 
> http://www.canadianautoworld.ca/industry-news/electric-vehicles-and-the-unique-risks-insurers-need-to-consider
> Electric vehicles and the unique risks insurers need to consider
> October 17, 2016  Chris K. Panasiewicz
> 
> ... Insurance companies need to consider the major risks of insuring these
> lightweight, electric vehicles and ensure that premiums reflect the
> potential risks associated with insuring them.
> 
> ... [EV] risk of injury can be higher and repairs and replacement parts can
> be very costly. Here are some of the lesser-known concerns associated with
> owning and driving electric vehicles.
> 
> Thermal Runaway ...
> 
> Fire on Impact ...
> 
> Constantly ‘Running’ ...
> 
> Proper Maintenance of Charging Stations ...
> 
> Risk of Collision Injuries ...
> 
> Risk to Pedestrians ...
> 
> ... electric vehicles posing twice the degree of accident and injury risk
> when stopping, starting, slowing down, backing up, and entering or exiting
> driveways ...
> 
> Battery Disposal Cost ...
> 
> Insurance companies need to be aware of the differences between gas-powered
> and electric vehicles, and consider the different risks associated with
> insuring them ...
> 
> Chris K. Panasiewicz, M.Sc., P.Eng., CFEI, is a consulting forensic engineer
> who specializes in fire and explosions investigations and electrical
> engineering. He is qualified as an expert witness in the Ontario Superior
> Court of Justice and has investigated over 300 forensic incidents to date.
> He has over 10 years of fire and explosions experience ...
> [© 2016 Metroland Media Group]
> ...
> https://ca.linkedin.com/in/chris-panasiewicz-5aa48092
> Chris Panasiewicz
> Forensic Engineer at Origin And Cause
> http://www.origin-and-cause.com/media/Chris_Panasiewicz_new.pdf
> ...
> http://www.origin-and-cause.com/
> Origin & Cause-Fire Arson Investigator, Insurance Forensics
> Origin & Cause has 25 Forensic Engineers and Fire Investigators that combine
> their Fire, Forensic Training and Education to Deliver Unrivalled Response.
> ...
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cry_Wolf
> When one is said to Cry wolf it is an expression that means to "raise a
> false alarm", derived from the fable The Boy Who Cried Wolf. Cry Wolf may
> also refer to:.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: 
> http://evdl.org/evln/
> 
> 
> {brucedp.0catch.com}
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Insurance-Forensic-Eng-crying-wolf-does-this-explain-why-Insurers-EV-uptake-is-slow-tp4684245.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 

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Re: [EVDL] Insurance Forensic Eng crying wolf ... (does this explain why Insurers' EV-uptake is slow?)

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

 
I would agree that there are real problems with the article, but to ascribe it 
to either a conspiracy or self- interest on the part of the author is 
presumptuous or even dangerous.
Personally, I think that a carefully worded response to the article (including 
data would be valuable) would be worthwhile, and provide some needed education 
to both the author and readers of the publication. Sure, there may be some 
downsides from an *insurance* point of view *right now* of BEVs, but also 
strong advantages compared to ICEs that insurers should be aware of. And then 
there are the assertions that are just completely out of left field that ought 
to be corrected. 
IMHO, of course.
- Mark

Sent from AltaMail


 From: brucedp5 via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: 
[EVDL] Insurance Forensic Eng crying wolf ... (does this explain why Insurers' 
EV-uptake is slow?) Date: 10/29/16, 8:59 PM

 
 
 
% Normally, I seek out only the positive EV news item for posting. But 
sometimes I find what seems like an anti-EV release that might shed some 
light on other points concerning EVs. I ask that for those interested, bring 
up the URL (below) on your own (I did not want to post all their 
mis-information as that only perpetuates their incorrect statements). I did 
put a few of the key points you should examine (see below). 
 
- ? Am I right in thinking the purpose of this Eng's statements, are to 
promote his company's agenda ? If so, then this is not necessarily a 
Koch-Bros funded anti-EV/misinformation  smear, but one that is intent on 
helping drive business to that company ... (am I right?) 
 
- Releases like this being sent out to Insurance companies will certainly 
keep them from wanting to 'take a risk' on EVs, once they have read all the 
overblown hype from the writer (his writing leans heavily on an 'EV sky is 
falling' attitude) % 
 
 
http://www.canadianautoworld.ca/industry-news/electric-vehicles-and-the-unique-risks-insurers-need-to-consider
 
Electric vehicles and the unique risks insurers need to consider 
October 17, 2016  Chris K. Panasiewicz 
 
 ... Insurance companies need to consider the major risks of insuring these 
lightweight, electric vehicles and ensure that premiums reflect the 
potential risks associated with insuring them. 
 
 ... [EV] risk of injury can be higher and repairs and replacement parts can 
be very costly. Here are some of the lesser-known concerns associated with 
owning and driving electric vehicles. 
 
Thermal Runaway ... 
 
Fire on Impact ... 
 
Constantly ‘Running’ ... 
 
Proper Maintenance of Charging Stations ... 
 
Risk of Collision Injuries ... 
 
Risk to Pedestrians ... 
 
 ... electric vehicles posing twice the degree of accident and injury risk 
when stopping, starting, slowing down, backing up, and entering or exiting 
driveways ... 
 
Battery Disposal Cost ... 
 
Insurance companies need to be aware of the differences between gas-powered 
and electric vehicles, and consider the different risks associated with 
insuring them ... 
 
Chris K. Panasiewicz, M.Sc., P.Eng., CFEI, is a consulting forensic engineer 
who specializes in fire and explosions investigations and electrical 
engineering. He is qualified as an expert witness in the Ontario Superior 
Court of Justice and has investigated over 300 forensic incidents to date. 
He has over 10 years of fire and explosions experience ... 
[© 2016 Metroland Media Group] 
... 
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/chris-panasiewicz-5aa48092 
Chris Panasiewicz 
Forensic Engineer at Origin And Cause 
http://www.origin-and-cause.com/media/Chris_Panasiewicz_new.pdf 
... 
http://www.origin-and-cause.com/ 
Origin & Cause-Fire Arson Investigator, Insurance Forensics 
Origin & Cause has 25 Forensic Engineers and Fire Investigators that combine 
their Fire, Forensic Training and Education to Deliver Unrivalled Response. 
... 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cry_Wolf 
When one is said to Cry wolf it is an expression that means to "raise a 
false alarm", derived from the fable The Boy Who Cried Wolf. Cry Wolf may 
also refer to:. 
 
 
 
 
For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:  
http://evdl.org/evln/ 
 
 
{brucedp.0catch.com} 
 
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Insurance-Forensic-Eng-crying-wolf-does-this-explain-why-Insurers-EV-uptake-is-slow-tp4684245.html
 
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com. 
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Re: [EVDL] Insurance Forensic Eng crying wolf ... (does this explain why Insurers' EV-uptake is slow?)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

en in motion."
Did the author ever stand at the side of the road when vehicles were
passing? Indeed, there are some vehicles where the engine noise
overwhelms everything else, this is often a result of illegal
modifications to the exhaust system or the engine. All mass-manufactured
family sedans make very little engine noise when driving at a steady
speed in city traffic and the *majority* of the noise produced is coming
from the wheels, the tires hitting the pavement. While the engine noise
is always absent in an EV, every EV that is driving at normal speed in
city traffic makes a lot of (tire) noise. Only at very low speeds does
an EV become silent due to the absence of both engine noise and tire
noise. That is why almost all commercial EVs have been manufactured for
several years now, to have a noise maker that is automatically activated
at low driving speeds.
Either the author did not bother to investigate the actual situation or
he wrote this article a very long time ago and it now got published with
incorrect information.
At any rate, seeing the blatant mis-information in the article, I would
suggest to attach very low weight to the statements and conclusions.
Also the question presents itself, why this author, who should be so
qualified to write an excellent article with referenced statistics,
apples-to-apples comparisons between ICE and EV vehicles and accurate
technical details, ends up writing an opinion piece that superficially
seems to be legit because of his many titles, but upon inspection proves
itself grossly misrepresenting the presented issues - why does this
author publish such an article? I can only think of a single motivation
to do so and I will leave the conclusion to the readers.

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
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this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2016 9:00 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] Insurance Forensic Eng crying wolf ... (does this
explain why Insurers' EV-uptake is slow?)



% Normally, I seek out only the positive EV news item for posting. But
sometimes I find what seems like an anti-EV release that might shed some
light on other points concerning EVs. I ask that for those interested,
bring
up the URL (below) on your own (I did not want to post all their
mis-information as that only perpetuates their incorrect statements). I
did
put a few of the key points you should examine (see below).

- ? Am I right in thinking the purpose of this Eng's statements, are to
promote his company's agenda ? If so, then this is not necessarily a
Koch-Bros funded anti-EV/misinformation  smear, but one that is intent
on
helping drive business to that company ... (am I right?)

- Releases like this being sent out to Insurance companies will
certainly
keep them from wanting to 'take a risk' on EVs, once they have read all
the
overblown hype from the writer (his writing leans heavily on an 'EV sky
is
falling' attitude) %


http://www.canadianautoworld.ca/industry-news/electric-vehicles-and-the-
unique-risks-insurers-need-to-consider
Electric vehicles and the unique risks insurers need to consider
October 17, 2016  Chris K. Panasiewicz

 ... Insurance companies need to consider the major risks of insuring
these
lightweight, electric vehicles and ensure that premiums reflect the
potential risks associated with insuring them.

 ... [EV] risk of injury can be higher and repairs and replacement parts
can
be very costly. Here are some of the lesser-known concerns associated
with
owning and driving electric vehicles.

Thermal Runaway ...

Fire on Impact ...

Constantly 'Running' ...

Proper Maintenance of Charging Stations ...

Risk of Collision Injuries ...

Risk to Pedestrians ...

 ... electric vehicles posing twice the degree of accident and injury
risk
when stopping, starting, slowing down, backing up, and entering or
exiting
driveways ...

Battery Disposal Cost ...

Insurance companies need to be aware of the differences between
gas-powered
and electric vehicles, and consider the different risks associated with
insuring them ...

Chris K. Panasiewicz, M.Sc., P.Eng., CFEI, is a consulting forensic
engineer
who specializes in fire and explosions investigations and electrical
engineering. He is qualified as an expert witness in the Ontario
Superior
Court of Justice and has investigated over 300 forensic incidents to
date.
He has over 10 years of fire and explosions experience ...
[(c) 2016 Metroland Media Group]
.