Re: [EVDL] 3 phase range extender?

[George Tyler via EV]

I have done something like this, but on a smaller scale. Simple approach, run 
engine at 1/2 or 3/4 throttle, control excitation to control engine revs, if 
you want more power, REDUCE excitation! No regulator. Use 3 ph bridge, ripple 
frequency is 360 Hz depending on speed, and alternator inductance / impedance 
will reduce ripple. I think you will find ripple is acceptable.

-Original Message-
From: "John Lussmyer via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: ‎5/‎03/‎2018 05:17 a.m.
To: "cor.vandewater" <cor.vandewa...@gmail.com>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Cc: "John Lussmyer" <cou...@casadelgato.com>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 3 phase range extender?

On Sat Mar 03 22:53:42 PST 2018 cor.vandewa...@gmail.com said:
>John,Yes, the 3 phase output is pretty easy to be directly rectified into a 
>battery pack and regulate the motor speed to get the current output you want, 
>since the battery pack voltage is not much going to change, so with just small 
>variations in engine rpm you will vary output current and thereby power 
>output.The current waveform will not be pretty, just like with all bad boys, 
>but 3 phase is much better than single phase.Success!Cor.

Ahh, another useful answer.
Sounds like I have some experimentation to do.


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Re: [EVDL] 3 phase range extender?

[Lee Hart via EV]

John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

On Sun Mar 04 07:52:25 PST 2018 ev@lists.evdl.org said:

Is it possible to build a voltage regulator that adjusts the voltage QUICKLY in 
order to get something closer to a square wave output rather than the normal 
sine wave?


If the genset is old, it probably doesn't have any elaborate electronic
controls to regulate voltage and frequency. Does it just have some kind
of simple mechanical or electrical governer to set the ICE speed, and
thus the output frequency?


This is an older generator head from a military diesel genset.
It did have controls to adjust the voltage and the frequency, but I haven't dug 
into the actual generator head in detail yet.


Found the manuals for this unit.  The generator head does have connections for a "DC 
Excitor", both stator and rotor.
Seems to expect around 60VDC (from looking at one of the test instructions.)

I do wonder if this could be varied fast enough so that the generator output is 
closer to a square wave.


The wound field probably has a lot of inductance, so you won't be able 
to change the current fast enough to modulate the output.


One reason for the dreaded "load dump" in generators and alternators is 
the large inductance of the field. A load dump occurs when the generator 
or alternator is charging at high current, and the load is suddenly 
removed. The field inductance causes the field current to remain high 
for many milliseconds. So the generator or alternator keeps right on 
delivering its maximum power for that time. This causes the output 
voltage to spike much higher, and at high current as well. Bang!


--
You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change
something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
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Re: [EVDL] 3 phase range extender?

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Sun Mar 04 07:52:25 PST 2018 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>>> Is it possible to build a voltage regulator that adjusts the voltage 
>>> QUICKLY in order to get something closer to a square wave output rather 
>>> than the normal sine wave?
>>
>>If the genset is old, it probably doesn't have any elaborate electronic
>>controls to regulate voltage and frequency. Does it just have some kind
>>of simple mechanical or electrical governer to set the ICE speed, and
>>thus the output frequency?
>
>This is an older generator head from a military diesel genset.
>It did have controls to adjust the voltage and the frequency, but I haven't 
>dug into the actual generator head in detail yet.

Found the manuals for this unit.  The generator head does have connections for 
a "DC Excitor", both stator and rotor.
Seems to expect around 60VDC (from looking at one of the test instructions.)

I do wonder if this could be varied fast enough so that the generator output is 
closer to a square wave.


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Re: [EVDL] 3 phase range extender?

[Matt Lacey via EV]

The stator windings of induction motors also make pretty good inductors.  Can 
be had for scrap value if you're lucky 

⁣Sent from BlueMail ​

On 5 Mar. 2018, 01:16, at 01:16, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
 Would a "bad boy" full wave 3 phase rectifier work?  (I'd probably
>need to adjust the voltage output of the generator.)
>
>> Figuring out the inductor size might be a bit difficult, but
>hopefully not TOO critical.
>> I'm unlikely to need more than about 30KW out of this continuously.
>
>It's not critical. The more the better (up to the point where the 
>inductor becomes impractically big/heavy/expensive, or its resistance 
>adds too much loss/heat).
>
>The inductor's job is to spread out the current spikes at each AC peak.
>
>32kw at 320vdc is 100 amps average. With no inductance, the current is 
>liable to be 400a spikes for 1/4 of the time. That will put a real 
>strain on the diodes and wiring.
>
>The more inductance you add, the smoother the current becomes. The
>peaks 
>go down, and fill in the zero-current valleys.
>
>If you manage to get too much inductance (which would probably take an 
>inductor too big to lift), the output current essentially becomes DC. 
>The current in each of the 3-phase windings becomes a 33% on-time
>square 
>wave.
>
>Note: That big inductor will have a hell of an inductive "kick" if 
>something tries to interrupt the DC output current. A switch, fuse, or 
>circuit breaker on the DC output will arc like mad if it opens while 
>charging at 100A!
>
>An old arc welder transformer should work as an inductor. Disconnect or
>
>remove the primary and rectifier, and use the high-current secondary as
>
>your inductor.
>
>>> If you want to fully regulate the output voltage and current, three
>of
>>> the diodes in the bridge could be replaced with SCRs, and phase
>>> controlled. Copy a classic circuit from an SCR manual, or use your
>>> favorite microcontroller and program it yourself.
>>
>> And also thanks for giving the ONLY useful answer that didn't boil
>down to "go buy a 30KW 3 phase hi-voltage charger".
>
>You are most welcome! Though my solutions are often on the crude / old 
>tech side, that is because it's more likely that people can actually 
>*do* them. Wonderful high-tech solutions are great on paper; but often 
>never get implememted.
>
>In your case, I know you are a great programmer; so a solution that 
>includes a micro is not going to be a roadblock. That's the part you 
>like! :-)
>
>-- 
>You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change
>something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
>   -- R. Buckminster Fuller
>--
>Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] 3 phase range extender?

[Lee Hart via EV]

John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

Would a "bad boy" full wave 3 phase rectifier work?  (I'd probably need to 
adjust the voltage output of the generator.)



Figuring out the inductor size might be a bit difficult, but hopefully not TOO 
critical.
I'm unlikely to need more than about 30KW out of this continuously.


It's not critical. The more the better (up to the point where the 
inductor becomes impractically big/heavy/expensive, or its resistance 
adds too much loss/heat).


The inductor's job is to spread out the current spikes at each AC peak. 
32kw at 320vdc is 100 amps average. With no inductance, the current is 
liable to be 400a spikes for 1/4 of the time. That will put a real 
strain on the diodes and wiring.


The more inductance you add, the smoother the current becomes. The peaks 
go down, and fill in the zero-current valleys.


If you manage to get too much inductance (which would probably take an 
inductor too big to lift), the output current essentially becomes DC. 
The current in each of the 3-phase windings becomes a 33% on-time square 
wave.


Note: That big inductor will have a hell of an inductive "kick" if 
something tries to interrupt the DC output current. A switch, fuse, or 
circuit breaker on the DC output will arc like mad if it opens while 
charging at 100A!


An old arc welder transformer should work as an inductor. Disconnect or 
remove the primary and rectifier, and use the high-current secondary as 
your inductor.



If you want to fully regulate the output voltage and current, three of
the diodes in the bridge could be replaced with SCRs, and phase
controlled. Copy a classic circuit from an SCR manual, or use your
favorite microcontroller and program it yourself.


And also thanks for giving the ONLY useful answer that didn't boil down to "go buy a 
30KW 3 phase hi-voltage charger".


You are most welcome! Though my solutions are often on the crude / old 
tech side, that is because it's more likely that people can actually 
*do* them. Wonderful high-tech solutions are great on paper; but often 
never get implememted.


In your case, I know you are a great programmer; so a solution that 
includes a micro is not going to be a roadblock. That's the part you 
like! :-)


--
You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change
something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] 3 phase range extender?

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Sat Mar 03 22:53:42 PST 2018 cor.vandewa...@gmail.com said:
>John,Yes, the 3 phase output is pretty easy to be directly rectified into a 
>battery pack and regulate the motor speed to get the current output you want, 
>since the battery pack voltage is not much going to change, so with just small 
>variations in engine rpm you will vary output current and thereby power 
>output.The current waveform will not be pretty, just like with all bad boys, 
>but 3 phase is much better than single phase.Success!Cor.

Ahh, another useful answer.
Sounds like I have some experimentation to do.


--

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http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250

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Re: [EVDL] 3 phase range extender?

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Sat Mar 03 23:08:39 PST 2018 Lee Hart said:
>John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
>> So, I happen to have an older 3 phase, 60KW generator head.
>> I also have a small car engine with all the pollution controls.
>> My battery pack is fully charged at 332VDC.
>>
>> I'm trying to figure out if there is some way to use this generator as a 
>> range extender.
>> While driving my PFC-50 would help some, that's only 12KW.
>>
>> Would a "bad boy" full wave 3 phase rectifier work?  (I'd probably need to 
>> adjust the voltage output of the generator.)
>>
>> Is it possible to build a voltage regulator that adjusts the voltage QUICKLY 
>> in order to get something closer to a square wave output rather than the 
>> normal sine wave?
>
>If the genset is old, it probably doesn't have any elaborate electronic
>controls to regulate voltage and frequency. Does it just have some kind
>of simple mechanical or electrical governer to set the ICE speed, and
>thus the output frequency?

This is an older generator head from a military diesel genset.
It did have controls to adjust the voltage and the frequency, but I haven't dug 
into the actual generator head in detail yet.

>If the above is the case, then it would be pretty simple to make a
>high-power charger. You basically need a big 3-phase bridge to turn the
>AC output into DC.
>
>Then, I would include a large series inductor to smooth the output
>current and knock down the peaks. The inductor's resistance will also
>limit the current into a discharged battery. This will also make the
>generator run cooler by improving the power factor it sees.

Figuring out the inductor size might be a bit difficult, but hopefully not TOO 
critical.
I'm unlikely to need more than about 30KW out of this continuously.

>If you want to fully regulate the output voltage and current, three of
>the diodes in the bridge could be replaced with SCRs, and phase
>controlled. Copy a classic circuit from an SCR manual, or use your
>favorite microcontroller and program it yourself.

Thanks, I was hoping there would be some kind of possibility to do that.

>Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

And also thanks for giving the ONLY useful answer that didn't boil down to "go 
buy a 30KW 3 phase hi-voltage charger".


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Re: [EVDL] 3 phase range extender?

[ROBERT via EV]

You better check with the VFD manufacturer before you waste your money on a 
VFD.  If you have a 3 phase gen set, I suggest you get a 3 phase charger.

You stated:
"Would a "bad boy" full wave 3 phase rectifier work?  (I'd probably need to 
adjust the voltage output of the generator.)"  With this approach, you are 
looking for trouble.

"Is it possible to build a voltage regulator that adjusts the voltage QUICKLY 
in order to get something closer to a square wave output rather than the normal 
sine wave?"  At 12KW - 60KW, this is serious design project.  Expect to spend a 
lot of time and money.

If you have a 3 phase gen set, I suggest you get a 3 phase charger or sell the 
gen set to someone that needs 3 phase electricity.


From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Matt Lacey via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2018 10:40 PM
To: John Lussmyer via EV
Cc: Matt Lacey
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 3 phase range extender?

No,  a vfd can go in both directions. Same concept as using one as a motor 
controller.  You're basically getting the vfd to run the genset in Regen.  
Genset goes on the output side of the vfd. The battery goes on the dc bus.

No need to connect anything to the normal ac input

⁣Sent from BlueMail

On 4 Mar. 2018, 13:37, at 13:37, John Lussmyer via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>On Sat Mar 03 21:29:22 PST 2018 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>>You could get a variable frequency drive to convert the ac to dc.
>Assuming the get set output is 220vac or similar.
>
>Last I knew, a VFD output AC at a Variable Frequency.  Not DC.
>Sounds like you are suggesting I just get a 60KW (actually, I only need
>30KW) charger.
>
>
>--
>
>Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
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Re: [EVDL] 3 phase range extender?

[cor.vandewater via EV]

John,Yes, the 3 phase output is pretty easy to be directly rectified into a 
battery pack and regulate the motor speed to get the current output you want, 
since the battery pack voltage is not much going to change, so with just small 
variations in engine rpm you will vary output current and thereby power 
output.The current waveform will not be pretty, just like with all bad boys, 
but 3 phase is much better than single phase.Success!Cor.

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
 Original message From: John Lussmyer via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 3/3/18  9:21 PM  (GMT-08:00) To: Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> Cc: John Lussmyer <cou...@casadelgato.com> 
Subject: [EVDL] 3 phase range extender? 
So, I happen to have an older 3 phase, 60KW generator head.
I also have a small car engine with all the pollution controls.
My battery pack is fully charged at 332VDC.

I'm trying to figure out if there is some way to use this generator as a range 
extender.
While driving my PFC-50 would help some, that's only 12KW.

Would a "bad boy" full wave 3 phase rectifier work?  (I'd probably need to 
adjust the voltage output of the generator.)

Is it possible to build a voltage regulator that adjusts the voltage QUICKLY in 
order to get something closer to a square wave output rather than the normal 
sine wave?


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Re: [EVDL] 3 phase range extender?

[Lee Hart via EV]

John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

So, I happen to have an older 3 phase, 60KW generator head.
I also have a small car engine with all the pollution controls.
My battery pack is fully charged at 332VDC.

I'm trying to figure out if there is some way to use this generator as a range 
extender.
While driving my PFC-50 would help some, that's only 12KW.

Would a "bad boy" full wave 3 phase rectifier work?  (I'd probably need to 
adjust the voltage output of the generator.)

Is it possible to build a voltage regulator that adjusts the voltage QUICKLY in 
order to get something closer to a square wave output rather than the normal 
sine wave?


If the genset is old, it probably doesn't have any elaborate electronic 
controls to regulate voltage and frequency. Does it just have some kind 
of simple mechanical or electrical governer to set the ICE speed, and 
thus the output frequency?


And, how does it set the output voltage? One ones are likely to have 
some kind of field winding on the generator that gets adjusted to set 
the output voltage.


If the above is the case, then it would be pretty simple to make a 
high-power charger. You basically need a big 3-phase bridge to turn the 
AC output into DC.


Then, I would include a large series inductor to smooth the output 
current and knock down the peaks. The inductor's resistance will also 
limit the current into a discharged battery. This will also make the 
generator run cooler by improving the power factor it sees.


If you want to fully regulate the output voltage and current, three of 
the diodes in the bridge could be replaced with SCRs, and phase 
controlled. Copy a classic circuit from an SCR manual, or use your 
favorite microcontroller and program it yourself.


--
You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change
something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] 3 phase range extender?

[Matt Lacey via EV]

No,  a vfd can go in both directions. Same concept as using one as a motor 
controller.  You're basically getting the vfd to run the genset in Regen.  
Genset goes on the output side of the vfd. The battery goes on the dc bus.  

No need to connect anything to the normal ac input 

⁣Sent from BlueMail ​

On 4 Mar. 2018, 13:37, at 13:37, John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:
>On Sat Mar 03 21:29:22 PST 2018 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>>You could get a variable frequency drive to convert the ac to dc. 
>Assuming the get set output is 220vac or similar.
>
>Last I knew, a VFD output AC at a Variable Frequency.  Not DC.
>Sounds like you are suggesting I just get a 60KW (actually, I only need
>30KW) charger.
>
>
>--
>
>Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
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Re: [EVDL] 3 phase range extender?

[Matt Lacey via EV]

You could get a variable frequency drive to convert the ac to dc.  Assuming the 
get set output is 220vac or similar. 

⁣Sent from BlueMail ​

On 4 Mar. 2018, 13:21, at 13:21, John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:
>So, I happen to have an older 3 phase, 60KW generator head.
>I also have a small car engine with all the pollution controls.
>My battery pack is fully charged at 332VDC.
>
>I'm trying to figure out if there is some way to use this generator as
>a range extender.
>While driving my PFC-50 would help some, that's only 12KW.
>
>Would a "bad boy" full wave 3 phase rectifier work?  (I'd probably need
>to adjust the voltage output of the generator.)
>
>Is it possible to build a voltage regulator that adjusts the voltage
>QUICKLY in order to get something closer to a square wave output rather
>than the normal sine wave?
>
>
>--
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>http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250
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[EVDL] 3 phase range extender?

[John Lussmyer via EV]

So, I happen to have an older 3 phase, 60KW generator head.
I also have a small car engine with all the pollution controls.
My battery pack is fully charged at 332VDC.

I'm trying to figure out if there is some way to use this generator as a range 
extender.
While driving my PFC-50 would help some, that's only 12KW.

Would a "bad boy" full wave 3 phase rectifier work?  (I'd probably need to 
adjust the voltage output of the generator.)

Is it possible to build a voltage regulator that adjusts the voltage QUICKLY in 
order to get something closer to a square wave output rather than the normal 
sine wave?


--
Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! 
http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250
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