Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working to cover the entire road maintenence budget
Amazing thing is that even though your fuel tax is so low you still have so may EV's historically, done more for the development of EV's than any other country. It must be a great place to live in. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator via EV Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2014 3:39 p.m. To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working to cover the entire road maintenence budget What is almost always ignored in these discussions is that road wear is not the only social negative caused by vehicles. The list is long, and noise and air pollution are pretty close to the top. I'm sure you can think of many more. EVs have a positive impact on these factors. They benefit society more than ICEVs do. That's why it makes perfect sense for them to be exempted from some portion (if not all) of the taxes levied on vehicles that pollute and make noise. The US currently pays some of the world's lowest fuel taxes. Redefining the fuel tax as a vehicle impact tax would be the first step towards setting them at more realistic levels. It would also clarify why EV drivers should get a break on the tax (and I definitely think we should). However, given the current US political climate, in which many cities can't even levy enough taxes to pay their police and road crews, an increase in the fuel tax is probably a non-starter. About the only solution I can think of - and even this might not fly politically - is to charge a yearly license renewal fee based on the weight of the vehicle. (I think some states already do this. Others have license fees based on the value of the vehicle.) Ideallly this would include exemptions or credits for EVs. David Roden EVDL Administrator http://www.evdl.org/ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working to cover the entire road maintenence budget
It's always a tough call to figure out how government spends it's money. Every department would LOVE to have an infinite budget. I guess I've just grown unbelievably cynical about the government constantly crying they don't enough money then seeing first hand they waste it instead of trying ..just a little...to do more with less. I don't trust them anymore. Not that I trust private industry more, Just that govt constantly cry wolf in order to get more funding so they don't have to economize. As far as road mileage tax is concerned, The truth is most of the road infrastructure is tremendously overbuilt for just cars and is built very strong for 105,000 lb trucks and not 3000 lb automobiles. That is why roads cost so much. However the trucking industry is very competitive and would fight like crazy to avoid paying a penny more. But the reason they are constantly trying to get bigger trucks on the road is because the rail industry is ridiculously lost in the 19th century and they are so inbred they don't even want to deal with ainything less than a complete freight car. For an exercise in frustration, try shipping a 400 lb item via rail. It's near impossible unless you own a sawmill, coal field, or oil refinery. These people don't even know what competition is anymore. Ergo, bigger and bigger trucks, ergo more expensive roads and bridges, ergo trying to stick the bill onto the average taxpayerthen on down the food chain to the poor EV driver. God forbid we would have decent rail transportation instead of constantly raising the weight limit for trucks over and over, but asking for sanity appears to be insane. As weird as it sounds, IMHO the answer to the road tax is improved intercity rail freight. My two ...(non fuel tax) cents anyway. On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 7:02 PM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Increased trucking costs would be shared by all, operators in lower pay or pay increases, owners and stockholders in higher cost and lower margins, and consumers in higher end cost and shipping cost, or taxpayers pay after the fact when the infrastructure is already deteriorated instead of kept well. But roads need care. I suppose the last point of taxation makes the least sense to me - as a general tax. It seems just fine to me that it is spread around among many as we all benefit and so need to cover the cost of road building to some extent. It is a distortion to lay it all at the feet of one participant or another whoever has the least clout. I am not saying I know an answer, but I think a road use tax of some sort is perhaps less of a distortion. Maybe the point of greatest clout is where the tax should go - they would be in more of a position so require that the money be used well. However, this troubles me because I think the owners and shareholders care the least about the infrastructure. Influence almost always makes for a way to get more money, but not to spread it around Anyway we all like to quibble about this, and I wish we would move along quickly rather than dither over it. It probably works out one way or another. On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 8:49 PM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 06/24/2014 06:57 PM, Dennis Miles via EV wrote: The gas tax was effective many years ago. It is insufficient now. Electric cars are only a fraction of one percent of the vehicles on the roads. A simple survey of the patterns of damaged paving on our roads will demonstrate that automobiles are not damaging our streets. The roads are damaged by heavy trucks. The automobiles, whether ICE, EV or hybrid, should not be singled out for road maintenance funding. The trucks are carrying goods which benefit everyone. Therefore the gas tax should be maintained at present levels and a general sales tax increase should be enacted and designated for highway maintenance. Perhaps the food for the families, or prescription medicines could be exempt. (As is done in Florida) Generally, I agree. But the fuel tax is not a bad way to pay for roads. It used to work well before the value of the fixed tax was reduced due to inflation. Even though they use much more fuel per mile, that doesn't really offset the damage done by trucks. We should start with much higher fuel taxes that are some fraction of the fuel cost rather than a fixed amount per gallon. I fail to understand why that is and has been such a political impossibility. People that worry about EVs and other light vehicles paying their fair share either fail to understand the problem or they are dishonest. Neither is desirable in our officials. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working to cover the entire road maintenence budget
To continue on the point I was making about rail infrastructure being hopelessly lost in the 19th century, here is an interesting read. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/08/us/chicago-train-congestion-slows-whole-country.html?pagewanted=all_r=0 ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working to cover the entire road maintenence budget
Lawrence Winiarski via EV mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org June 25, 2014 9:53 AM As weird as it sounds, IMHO the answer to the road tax is improved intercity rail freight. My two ...(non fuel tax) cents anyway. Absolutely! Rail from city to city, local (electric!) delivery vehicles to the destination from the city hub. Works for passengers, too, but I won't get on my Amtrak soapbox here, I promise. Best regards, -- Cal Frye, www.calfrye.com /Be an Internet Sceptic/ Stop. Think. Connect. www.stopthinkconnect.org - Be at least as safe on the Internet as you are crossing the street! A time comes when silence is betrayal. -- Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140625/ff1cf5f3/attachment.htm -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: compose-unknown-contact.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 770 bytes Desc: not available URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140625/ff1cf5f3/attachment.jpg ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Gas tax is not working to cover the entire road maintenence budget
The gas tax was effective many years ago. It is insufficient now. Electric cars are only a fraction of one percent of the vehicles on the roads. A simple survey of the patterns of damaged paving on our roads will demonstrate that automobiles are not damaging our streets. The roads are damaged by heavy trucks. The automobiles, whether ICE, EV or hybrid, should not be singled out for road maintenance funding. The trucks are carrying goods which benefit everyone. Therefore the gas tax should be maintained at present levels and a general sales tax increase should be enacted and designated for highway maintenance. Perhaps the food for the families, or prescription medicines could be exempt. (As is done in Florida) *Dennis Lee Miles * *Director **E.V.T.I. Inc.* *E-Mail:* *evprofes...@evprofessor.com* evprofes...@evprofessor.com *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913* Dade City, Florida 33523 USA -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140624/06fa4e5d/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working to cover the entire road maintenence budget
On 06/24/2014 06:57 PM, Dennis Miles via EV wrote: The gas tax was effective many years ago. It is insufficient now. Electric cars are only a fraction of one percent of the vehicles on the roads. A simple survey of the patterns of damaged paving on our roads will demonstrate that automobiles are not damaging our streets. The roads are damaged by heavy trucks. The automobiles, whether ICE, EV or hybrid, should not be singled out for road maintenance funding. The trucks are carrying goods which benefit everyone. Therefore the gas tax should be maintained at present levels and a general sales tax increase should be enacted and designated for highway maintenance. Perhaps the food for the families, or prescription medicines could be exempt. (As is done in Florida) Generally, I agree. But the fuel tax is not a bad way to pay for roads. It used to work well before the value of the fixed tax was reduced due to inflation. Even though they use much more fuel per mile, that doesn't really offset the damage done by trucks. We should start with much higher fuel taxes that are some fraction of the fuel cost rather than a fixed amount per gallon. I fail to understand why that is and has been such a political impossibility. People that worry about EVs and other light vehicles paying their fair share either fail to understand the problem or they are dishonest. Neither is desirable in our officials. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working to cover the entire road maintenence budget
Increased trucking costs would be shared by all, operators in lower pay or pay increases, owners and stockholders in higher cost and lower margins, and consumers in higher end cost and shipping cost, or taxpayers pay after the fact when the infrastructure is already deteriorated instead of kept well. But roads need care. I suppose the last point of taxation makes the least sense to me - as a general tax. It seems just fine to me that it is spread around among many as we all benefit and so need to cover the cost of road building to some extent. It is a distortion to lay it all at the feet of one participant or another whoever has the least clout. I am not saying I know an answer, but I think a road use tax of some sort is perhaps less of a distortion. Maybe the point of greatest clout is where the tax should go - they would be in more of a position so require that the money be used well. However, this troubles me because I think the owners and shareholders care the least about the infrastructure. Influence almost always makes for a way to get more money, but not to spread it around Anyway we all like to quibble about this, and I wish we would move along quickly rather than dither over it. It probably works out one way or another. On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 8:49 PM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 06/24/2014 06:57 PM, Dennis Miles via EV wrote: The gas tax was effective many years ago. It is insufficient now. Electric cars are only a fraction of one percent of the vehicles on the roads. A simple survey of the patterns of damaged paving on our roads will demonstrate that automobiles are not damaging our streets. The roads are damaged by heavy trucks. The automobiles, whether ICE, EV or hybrid, should not be singled out for road maintenance funding. The trucks are carrying goods which benefit everyone. Therefore the gas tax should be maintained at present levels and a general sales tax increase should be enacted and designated for highway maintenance. Perhaps the food for the families, or prescription medicines could be exempt. (As is done in Florida) Generally, I agree. But the fuel tax is not a bad way to pay for roads. It used to work well before the value of the fixed tax was reduced due to inflation. Even though they use much more fuel per mile, that doesn't really offset the damage done by trucks. We should start with much higher fuel taxes that are some fraction of the fuel cost rather than a fixed amount per gallon. I fail to understand why that is and has been such a political impossibility. People that worry about EVs and other light vehicles paying their fair share either fail to understand the problem or they are dishonest. Neither is desirable in our officials. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140624/14cadf73/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
