Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

Hmmm...I'm not a car guy, but isn't the point of the large diameter wheels for 
low profile tires for high speed cornering?  

 In a racing car, as you go around the corner, the sidewalls flex because of 
the centrifugal force that they must transport to the car
 By using low profile tires and making the wheels larger, you keep the same 
diameter, but the shorter sidewall makes the overall flex, less.
I thought that was the original point for racing tires anyway.

-- If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will be 
done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a ravaged 
world. Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 
 

On Thursday, June 18, 2020, 8:50:15 AM PDT, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> Oversize wheels are a styling gimmick. Once the wheels are big enough to 
> clear the brakes, making them larger has no
> practical value that I can see.  They only add unsprung mass and inertia.
> They decrease the vehicle's efficiency, and possibly its handling and
> comfort, for no real return.
>
> Most of the fancy wheels are worse in their aerodynamic qualities, too, and
> more expensive to replace if they're damaged.

 From a purely functional standpoint, larger wheels do indeed increase 
losses. They are heavier, and have more wind resistance. Remember that 
the top of a tire is moving forward at *twice* the speed of the car 
itself, which greatly magnifies the effect of its aerodynamic drag.

Larger tires can reduce rolling resistance (all other things being 
equal); but that's normally only important at low speeds. The trouble 
is, other things are *not* equal; larger tires tend to use wider tread 
and stiffer sidewalls, which increase the othe losses.

I remember reading about the arguments Paul MacReady had with the GM 
styists about the EV-1. He wanted small skinny tires for efficiency; 
they wanted big "macho" tires. They wound up having Michelin develop a 
special tire.

I also talked to Bob McKee (the famous race car designer). When he 
designed his Sundancer (famous for a 150 mph range and 70 mph top speed 
on just twelve 6v golf cart batteries), he tested tires to find the 
optimum size. He found that a *small* diameter tire had the best 
compromise between efficiency and handling (he paid no attention at all 
to appearance).

I think the main reasons for large wide tires are, a) styling (looks 
like a race car), b) sell for higher prices (more profit), c), improved 
handling on smooth dry roads (like a racetrack).

Lee Hart

-- 
If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
  - something to do
  - something to look forward to
  - someone to love
  - someone to take good care of
  - and misbehave, just a little
  --
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

It's all relative.

Relative to the road the bottom of the wheel is in fact /almost/ stationary.  
There is a tiny bit of slip, depending on whether it's a driven wheel or not.

Obviously if there is a lot of relative motion between the road surface and the 
bottom of the tire, then you've lost all your traction.

Don't forget, the tire is ROTATING.  That means that relative to a fixed point 
(like the road) every part of the circumferece of the tire is moving in a 
different direction at different relative velocities.

> axle is moving at 1x, then the bottom of the tire would have to be standing 
> still. But we all know
> that it isn't, the entire tire is moving forward at 1x. that can't be true 
> either or else the road
> would need to be moving at 1x also or else the tire would be skidding, but 
> it's not. This must be
> what some of those advanced math courses I never took were all about.
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Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[Lee Hart via EV]

From: Mr. Sharkey
>> Remember that the top of a tire is moving forward
>> at *twice* the speed of the car

>I was discussing this a short while back with a friend. If the top of 
>the tire is moving at 2x, the axle is moving at 1x, then the bottom 
>of the tire would have to be standing still. But we all know that it 
>isn't, the entire tire is moving forward at 1x. that can't be true 
>either or else the road would need to be moving at 1x also or else 
>the tire would be skidding, but it's not. This must be what some of 
>those advanced math courses I never took were all about.

Yeah; confusing, isn't it? Nevertheless, it's true. :-)

>What I do know is that is the perfect case against open-wheel 
>vehicles and for enclosed wheels as much as possible.

Exactly! Open wheels have huge aerodynamic losses from the top of the tire's 2x 
forward speed. But in race car, they often have an excess of HP, and need the 
extra cooling so the tires (and brakes) don't overheat.

On a conventional car, smooth wheel wells and a close fit between the the tire 
and outer edge of the fender will reduce these losses. You wind up with a 
pocket of air rotating with the tire, so its speed and aerodynamic losses are 
reduced.

>A belly pan would be nice too, but a lot of work...

Right again. There is a lot of turbulence between the road and bottom of the 
car. But since you can't see it, auto manufacturers ignore it.

Remember, the drag coefficients of cars are tested in a wind tunnel. The car, 
road, and tires are *not moving*. Only the air is moving over it. This 
eliminates the losses due to the spinning tires and road-belly pan, and gives 
them an deceptively low number to brag about in their ads.

Lee Hart


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Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

> Remember that the top of a tire is moving forward
> at *twice* the speed of the car

I was discussing this a short while back with a friend. If the top of 
the tire is moving at 2x, the axle is moving at 1x, then the bottom 
of the tire would have to be standing still. But we all know that it 
isn't, the entire tire is moving forward at 1x. that can't be true 
either or else the road would need to be moving at 1x also or else 
the tire would be skidding, but it's not. This must be what some of 
those advanced math courses I never took were all about.


What I do know is that is the perfect case against open-wheel 
vehicles and for enclosed wheels as much as possible. On a common 
production car, having the inner fender close and smooth matters. 
Which is why I put Cabriolet fender liners on my EV. A belly pan 
would be nice too, but a lot of work up on a lift to get designed and installed.


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Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[Lee Hart via EV]

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

Oversize wheels are a styling gimmick. Once the wheels are big enough to clear 
the brakes, making them larger has no
practical value that I can see.  They only add unsprung mass and inertia.
They decrease the vehicle's efficiency, and possibly its handling and
comfort, for no real return.

Most of the fancy wheels are worse in their aerodynamic qualities, too, and
more expensive to replace if they're damaged.


From a purely functional standpoint, larger wheels do indeed increase 
losses. They are heavier, and have more wind resistance. Remember that 
the top of a tire is moving forward at *twice* the speed of the car 
itself, which greatly magnifies the effect of its aerodynamic drag.


Larger tires can reduce rolling resistance (all other things being 
equal); but that's normally only important at low speeds. The trouble 
is, other things are *not* equal; larger tires tend to use wider tread 
and stiffer sidewalls, which increase the othe losses.


I remember reading about the arguments Paul MacReady had with the GM 
styists about the EV-1. He wanted small skinny tires for efficiency; 
they wanted big "macho" tires. They wound up having Michelin develop a 
special tire.


I also talked to Bob McKee (the famous race car designer). When he 
designed his Sundancer (famous for a 150 mph range and 70 mph top speed 
on just twelve 6v golf cart batteries), he tested tires to find the 
optimum size. He found that a *small* diameter tire had the best 
compromise between efficiency and handling (he paid no attention at all 
to appearance).


I think the main reasons for large wide tires are, a) styling (looks 
like a race car), b) sell for higher prices (more profit), c), improved 
handling on smooth dry roads (like a racetrack).


Lee Hart

--
If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
 - something to do
 - something to look forward to
 - someone to love
 - someone to take good care of
 - and misbehave, just a little
 --
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 17 Jun 2020 at 17:01, Willie via EV wrote:

> Consider the honesty incorporated in Tesla's no advertise policy.  IF
> you decide on your on that you want it, then buy it.  Else, do not
> buy. 

That's fine, if it works for them, but Teslas are also a fine example of 
what I'm talking about.  They have silly outsized 19", 20", and 21"  wheels 
with thin little tires that look like they belong on a bicycle.  

Where's the sense in that?  Oversize wheels are a styling gimmick. Once the 
wheels are big enough to clear the brakes, making them larger has no 
practical value that I can see.  They only add unsprung mass and inertia.  
They decrease the vehicle's efficiency, and possibly its handling and 
comfort, for no real return.   

Most of the fancy wheels are worse in their aerodynamic qualities, too, and 
more expensive to replace if they're damaged.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

> I'll never understand this bizarre styling trend for making
>  massive car wheels with thin little tires

When I was spending my hang-out-online time at a popular VW forum 
(vwvortex), there were constantly users complaining about how they 
hit some pothole or other, usually in a big city, and bent their 17+" 
rim because there was zero cushioning in the tire sidewall, being so 
low profile. These same users would stretch tires onto very wide rims 
so that the sidewalls weren't even vertical any more -and- they had 
ridiculous "poke" (wheel sticking out of the fender well) because of 
the depth of the rim and the offset required to keep the inside of 
the tire from being sliced to ribbons by the undercarriage of the car.


I like low-ish profile tires, mostly to keep the speedometer/odometer 
from being way off due to upsizing from the tiny 13" shopping cart 
wheels that the car was sold with. But I also like being able to run 
over a rolled-up newspaper without bending anything or having a blowout.


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Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[Willie via EV]

On 6/17/20 4:51 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:


I'll never understand this bizarre styling trend for making massive car
wheels with thin little tires that look like they belong on a bicycle. It
just keeps getting more excessive year by year.


The thing that's REALLY amusing is that you will hear car heads talking 
about various wheel diameters as if there were some value in one above 
the another.  "Sell/promote it and they will buy".  We are a nation of 
mindless sheep.  THAT's why we lost our useful pickup trucks.  Consider 
the honesty incorporated in Tesla's no advertise policy.  IF you decide 
on your on that you want it, then buy it.  Else, do not buy.


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Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 17 Jun 2020 at 12:37, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:

> apparently manufacturers are dropping support for the 14" wheel 
> diameter throughout the industry. 

You should try looking for 12" or 13" tires, especially in LRR.  It can be  
quite a challenge to keep old conversions and C-cars properly shod without 
resorting to huge wheels with ultra low profile tires.  

I'll never understand this bizarre styling trend for making massive car 
wheels with thin little tires that look like they belong on a bicycle. It 
just keeps getting more excessive year by year.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

One of the reasons for posting here was to expand my search to the 
knowledge base that exists on the mailing list. I wanted to be sure 
that I wasn't overlooking any viable options by being too narrow in 
my search field (mostly tirerack.com)


Apparently, according to searches on the Pirelli web site, the P6 is 
no longer available in a 14" wheel diameter. In fact, the _only_ 14" 
tire they offer in the acceptable size range (185/60 and 185/65-14) 
is the Cinturato Winter. If I was willing to bust back to tiny 
175/65-14, I'd have two choices, with the Ice Zero added to the above.


From this end of the screen, I'd say you will want to baby your P6's 
for another 30k, because finding a replacement set will be difficult.


This is the same situation I'm having with my diesel Rabbit. It needs 
tires badly, but the Michelin Pilot Exacto A/S 195/60-14 that it has 
are no longer manufactured. These have been by far the best tires I 
have ever owned, and I'd buy another set without a thought, but 
apparently manufacturers are dropping support for the 14" wheel 
diameter throughout the industry. This will mean another research 
project in the near future, although low rolling resistance isn't a 
major factor in my decision on tires for that car.


> I have been running Pirelli P6 Fourseasons tires
> on my conversion Honda Civic del Sol

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Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[Mike Nickerson via EV]

Another tire option:

I have been running Pirelli P6 Fourseasons tires on my conversion Honda
Civic del Sol.  They claim to be M+S, but the tread is not that aggressive
and I don't use them much in the snow.  They do very well in rainy and clear
weather, though.  I've had them for almost 10 years and 30,000 miles and
they still have good tread left.

The tires on the del Sol are 185/60 R14.

Mike

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Mr. Sharkey via EV
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:46 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Mr. Sharkey 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

 > Your choices will probably be wider if you splurge for  > 15" wheels and
fit lower profile tires...

David, thanks, I'll look into the Nokian's. 185-65/14 will work although I'd
prefer them in 60-series tires.

This ~would~ be a whole lot easier if I was willing to bump up a wheel size,
but there are multiple issues to deal with, clearance issues, style issues
and worst of all, wheel issues.

VW does not make an OEM 15" wheel with the required 4x100mm bolt pattern.
Aftermarket wheels seldom run true enough for my taste because they are
universally lug-centric instead of hub-centric. The other problem is that
it's kind of a crap shoot as to what the offset of aftermarket wheels is
going to be. Factory offset for this car is 38mm. The wheels I put on this
week are VW OEM 14" 45mm offset, and
195-60/14 tires are within 2mm of rubbing on the rear springs, and are
interfering with the body in the front on locked-steering wheel movement. I
avoid after market like the plague (oh yeah, that's a totally relevant
excuse these days!)

I *could* buy aftermarket wheels (assuming I could work out the offset
problems) and then have hub adapters machined for them. Oh boy, another
project If I actually needed another project, I'd have replacement front
wheel hubs machined to accept VW's range of 5-lug wheels. The rears would be
a bolt-on disc brake rotor swap. I have a recycle yard stocked with those
type of parts at my disposal.

Yes the Invicta's were noisy. Especially for me because my car has
autocrross-prep suspension, urethane pivot bushings throughout. They were
also uncomfortably like driving on ice all year 'round as well. 
May well be that a small tradeoff in energy efficiency will be worth the
added ride comfort and traction.

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Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

Bill;

No worries on the Audi spring swap. I went into it with eyes open, 
just the tip that the springs were compatible helped me move forward. 
I think that a complete spring/shock assembly *is* a drop-in 
replacement. Whether the ride height is completely stock afterwards 
is open to question, given the weight of any particular conversion 
vehicle. I knew some fabrication would be involved, that's why I have 
skills :-)


Rear disk brake swap-over was completed when I did all of the chassis 
improvements twenty years ago. Actually, the spindles, brackets, 
rotors and calipers from any VW A2 chassis is a bolt-on conversion. I 
ditched the proportioning and residual pressure valves completely. 
The weight ratio and disc diameter/swept area worked out perfectly in 
this instance. Would it pass rigorous DOT or track tech inspection 
requirements? IDK. Would any home built conversion?


This is the summer to get all of the suspension repairs completed and 
get a good four-wheel alignment tune-up. I've always thought that 
this car consumes more energy than it should. Tire wear suggests that 
either the car is out of alignment, or that the stock VW alignment 
specs are over-optimized to provide the car with more understeer than 
it really needs. Alignment checks through the years come back 
within-spec, so I suspect it's the latter. I don't get great tire 
life out of my diesel rabbit either, and it's had 4-wheel alignment 
recently. It sure stays glued to the road, though (lowered, Bilstein 
struts, GTI anti-sway bars, 195/60-14 Michelin performance tires all around).


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Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[Bill Dube via EV]

I was certain that the Audi 4000 springs were a drop in replacement on 
the Rabbit. I perhaps the springs varied in diameter from year to year, 
or perhaps according to the country. Sorry that the spring mounts on the 
Rabbit needed to be changed. :-(  Not such "good" advice, considering 
the extra work.


The Cabriolet springs are slightly stiffer than stock Rabbit springs, 
but not quite much of a boost as the Audi 4000 springs. The Cabriolet is 
heavier by about 200 lbs, with the added weight of the top and the 
additional sill car supports, and thus needs slightly beefier springs.


You can take a _lot_ of weight off a later model Rabbit by simply 
swapping the bumpers for lighter aftermarket bumpers (or perhaps early 
model bumpers?) The stock bumpers weigh a bunch because they were a US 
retrofit for impact resistance.


I should note, that if you can find a Scirocco parts car, they have rear 
disk brakes, which are an improvement over the drum Rabbit brakes. You 
have to also snag the brake proportioner when you get the rear end 
suspension beam, and fashion a small bracket for the actuator arm to 
grab the body.


Again, very sorry that the Audi springs were not the perfect match for 
the Rabbit. :-(


Bill D.

On 6/17/2020 3:33 PM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:

Great tech advice as usual, Bill.

Contacting a wheel repair place here in Oregon (Eugene area is the 
closest), I find that straightening the three slightly deformed 14x6" 
factory alloy wheels that I intended to use is $150 each. I about 
choked on that price, then I found out what a set of these wheels goes 
for on fleabay. Even bent up,corroded ones in this style are asking 
$90+, and one seller had the gall to ask $650 for five that were all 
bent. Just the center caps are asking $110!


Woody's pricing is in line with what I was told here. Perhaps with the 
"Dube Discount", the cost of shipping would be a wash. I'll give him a 
buzz tomorrow.


BTW Bill, Last time you imparted tech wisdom my direction it was to 
recommend Audi 4000 rear springs to get my ride height back to 
something resembling "normal". It was a struggle, but I located some 
in Germany for the Audi 80, and had them shipped. Now I have to get 
busy and buy some Audi shock absorbers, and fabricate top mount hats 
for them. They don't fit the Rabbit spring perches, larger diameter 
(and closer to those fat tires on the 45mm rims...). Kind of makes me 
sick how many of those Audi 4000's I used to walk past at the wrecking 
yard 20 years ago on my way to the rows of VW's I was parting away at. 
What I wouldn't give for just one of those now-long-crushed 
bloatmobiles today...


Earlier in the week, I took a box of miscellaneous shock and spring 
hardware from several Rabbits that I parted out, and an old set of 
still-useful Rabbit shocks and built a 1-3/4" lift section in the 
lower spring mount. Got the car's tail off the pavement at last, 
although I still have to suffer the mushy, overloaded stock springs. 
The new temporary 195/60-14 tires would have gotten the side walls 
shredded on the first trip to town if I hadn't done something to raise 
the body.


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Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

Great tech advice as usual, Bill.

Contacting a wheel repair place here in Oregon (Eugene area is the 
closest), I find that straightening the three slightly deformed 14x6" 
factory alloy wheels that I intended to use is $150 each. I about 
choked on that price, then I found out what a set of these wheels 
goes for on fleabay. Even bent up,corroded ones in this style are 
asking $90+, and one seller had the gall to ask $650 for five that 
were all bent. Just the center caps are asking $110!


Woody's pricing is in line with what I was told here. Perhaps with 
the "Dube Discount", the cost of shipping would be a wash. I'll give 
him a buzz tomorrow.


BTW Bill, Last time you imparted tech wisdom my direction it was to 
recommend Audi 4000 rear springs to get my ride height back to 
something resembling "normal". It was a struggle, but I located some 
in Germany for the Audi 80, and had them shipped. Now I have to get 
busy and buy some Audi shock absorbers, and fabricate top mount hats 
for them. They don't fit the Rabbit spring perches, larger diameter 
(and closer to those fat tires on the 45mm rims...). Kind of makes me 
sick how many of those Audi 4000's I used to walk past at the 
wrecking yard 20 years ago on my way to the rows of VW's I was 
parting away at. What I wouldn't give for just one of those 
now-long-crushed bloatmobiles today...


Earlier in the week, I took a box of miscellaneous shock and spring 
hardware from several Rabbits that I parted out, and an old set of 
still-useful Rabbit shocks and built a 1-3/4" lift section in the 
lower spring mount. Got the car's tail off the pavement at last, 
although I still have to suffer the mushy, overloaded stock springs. 
The new temporary 195/60-14 tires would have gotten the side walls 
shredded on the first trip to town if I hadn't done something to raise the body.


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Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[Bill Dube via EV]

Give Woody a call. *1-303-936-0232  *Tell them you are 
an old friend of Bill & Eva and they will get this "sorted" as they say 
in NZ. :-)


    Bill & Eva

> Your choices will probably be wider if you splurge for
> 15" wheels and fit lower profile tires...

David, thanks, I'll look into the Nokian's. 185-65/14 will work 
although I'd prefer them in 60-series tires.


This ~would~ be a whole lot easier if I was willing to bump up a wheel 
size, but there are multiple issues to deal with, clearance issues, 
style issues and worst of all, wheel issues.


VW does not make an OEM 15" wheel with the required 4x100mm bolt 
pattern. Aftermarket wheels seldom run true enough for my taste 
because they are universally lug-centric instead of hub-centric. The 
other problem is that it's kind of a crap shoot as to what the offset 
of aftermarket wheels is going to be. Factory offset for this car is 
38mm. The wheels I put on this week are VW OEM 14" 45mm offset, and 
195-60/14 tires are within 2mm of rubbing on the rear springs, and are 
interfering with the body in the front on locked-steering wheel 
movement. I avoid after market like the plague (oh yeah, that's a 
totally relevant excuse these days!)


I *could* buy aftermarket wheels (assuming I could work out the offset 
problems) and then have hub adapters machined for them. Oh boy, 
another project If I actually needed another project, I'd have 
replacement front wheel hubs machined to accept VW's range of 5-lug 
wheels. The rears would be a bolt-on disc brake rotor swap. I have a 
recycle yard stocked with those type of parts at my disposal.


Yes the Invicta's were noisy. Especially for me because my car has 
autocrross-prep suspension, urethane pivot bushings throughout. They 
were also uncomfortably like driving on ice all year 'round as well. 
May well be that a small tradeoff in energy efficiency will be worth 
the added ride comfort and traction.


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Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[Bill Dube via EV]

I would steer away (so to speak) from wheel adapters. They are a kluge 
at best and dangerous at worst.


4x100mm is a _very_ common size. Supposedly, there are 850 different car 
models with 4x100mm wheels:

https://sizemywheels.com/lz-pcd/4-100
  and about half of those have a 38mm offset (ET):
https://sizemywheels.com/lz-pcd/4-100?et=38

    The diameter of the center hole (DIA) is the next selection, but 
this is generally not an issue, _if_ you measure your car hubs and get 
one that size or larger. Looking briefly, it seems most VW's are 57.1mm, 
and there are a lot of models to choose from. Again, you should check 
your vehicle and see what the actual hubs, both front and rear, measure.


    The Scirocco, for example, had 14, 15, 1nd 16 inch rims in a 
4X100mm bolt pattern, 38mm offset, and a 57.1mm hub diameter. The 14 and 
15 inch rims were, however, "replacement" wheels, likely supplied as a 
"deal option".


    BTW, I have bought aftermarket rims for my cars for perhaps 20 
years to mount my snow tires on. For quick change in the driveway when 
the snow hit. No issues ever.


    If you need help with wheels, there is no one better in the world 
than Woody's Wheel Works in Denver. (Notice that I am wearing a Woody's 
hat in my profile.) They don't really sell rims, but they are the 
world's experts on repairing damaged rims, and building custom wire rims 
for cars and motorcycles.

    https://woodyswheelworks.com/

    Bill D.

On 6/17/2020 7:46 AM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:

> Your choices will probably be wider if you splurge for
> 15" wheels and fit lower profile tires...

David, thanks, I'll look into the Nokian's. 185-65/14 will work 
although I'd prefer them in 60-series tires.


This ~would~ be a whole lot easier if I was willing to bump up a wheel 
size, but there are multiple issues to deal with, clearance issues, 
style issues and worst of all, wheel issues.


VW does not make an OEM 15" wheel with the required 4x100mm bolt 
pattern. Aftermarket wheels seldom run true enough for my taste 
because they are universally lug-centric instead of hub-centric. The 
other problem is that it's kind of a crap shoot as to what the offset 
of aftermarket wheels is going to be. Factory offset for this car is 
38mm. The wheels I put on this week are VW OEM 14" 45mm offset, and 
195-60/14 tires are within 2mm of rubbing on the rear springs, and are 
interfering with the body in the front on locked-steering wheel 
movement. I avoid after market like the plague (oh yeah, that's a 
totally relevant excuse these days!)


I *could* buy aftermarket wheels (assuming I could work out the offset 
problems) and then have hub adapters machined for them. Oh boy, 
another project If I actually needed another project, I'd have 
replacement front wheel hubs machined to accept VW's range of 5-lug 
wheels. The rears would be a bolt-on disc brake rotor swap. I have a 
recycle yard stocked with those type of parts at my disposal.


Yes the Invicta's were noisy. Especially for me because my car has 
autocrross-prep suspension, urethane pivot bushings throughout. They 
were also uncomfortably like driving on ice all year 'round as well. 
May well be that a small tradeoff in energy efficiency will be worth 
the added ride comfort and traction.


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Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

> Your choices will probably be wider if you splurge for
> 15" wheels and fit lower profile tires...

David, thanks, I'll look into the Nokian's. 185-65/14 will work 
although I'd prefer them in 60-series tires.


This ~would~ be a whole lot easier if I was willing to bump up a 
wheel size, but there are multiple issues to deal with, clearance 
issues, style issues and worst of all, wheel issues.


VW does not make an OEM 15" wheel with the required 4x100mm bolt 
pattern. Aftermarket wheels seldom run true enough for my taste 
because they are universally lug-centric instead of hub-centric. The 
other problem is that it's kind of a crap shoot as to what the offset 
of aftermarket wheels is going to be. Factory offset for this car is 
38mm. The wheels I put on this week are VW OEM 14" 45mm offset, and 
195-60/14 tires are within 2mm of rubbing on the rear springs, and 
are interfering with the body in the front on locked-steering wheel 
movement. I avoid after market like the plague (oh yeah, that's a 
totally relevant excuse these days!)


I *could* buy aftermarket wheels (assuming I could work out the 
offset problems) and then have hub adapters machined for them. Oh 
boy, another project If I actually needed another project, I'd 
have replacement front wheel hubs machined to accept VW's range of 
5-lug wheels. The rears would be a bolt-on disc brake rotor swap. I 
have a recycle yard stocked with those type of parts at my disposal.


Yes the Invicta's were noisy. Especially for me because my car has 
autocrross-prep suspension, urethane pivot bushings throughout. They 
were also uncomfortably like driving on ice all year 'round as well. 
May well be that a small tradeoff in energy efficiency will be worth 
the added ride comfort and traction.


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Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

I've used Nokian WR and WR G2 tires with very good results.  They'd coast a 
long way.  Mine weren't horribly noisy.  Wear rate was so-so; anything over 
40k was pushing it. 

Nokian make an LRR WR G4 (later generation) tire in 185-65-14.  Would that 
work?  They will probably be hard to find, and will probably be made in 
Russia, if that matters to you.  Nokians also tend to be a bit more 
expensive than other tires.

https://www.nokiantires.com/all-weather-tires/nokian-wr-g4/

I've also used Firestone Fuel Fighter tires with no problems.  I agree that 
they're noisy, but I don't think they were markedly louder than the Invicta 
GLRs I had long ago.  You can't have everything.

The rolling resistance was maybe 5% higher than the Nokians.  They wore like 
iron; did 55k and still had tread left.  Traction was OK for summer, not so 
great for winter.  They were relatively inexpensive.

Your choices will probably be wider if you splurge for 15" wheels and fit 
lower profile tires.  I think that the cheaper models of (at least) Hyundai 
Ioniq Electrics, VW E-Golfs, and Renault Zoes still use 15" tires, and most 
of the big EU tire makers build specialty LRR tires to suit them.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

The Goodyear Invicta GLR's on my car finally had to be replaced after 
all these years. Tire wear was one factor, but mostly, they were 
beginning to look unsafe, all checked and separating. The random 
take-off used tires I had on hand to replace them bit me with a 13% 
increase in energy consumption, so I'm casting around for low rolling 
resistance replacement in the proper size.


According to the information on Tire Rack 
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=334 there 
are several manufacturers making tires with LRR properties. I spent 
quite a bit of time checking out the offerings of each, and have 
narrowed the choice down to two. The biggest problem is that nearly 
no one is making 14" tires in this category, I had to cull out the 
rest of the brands because of wheel diameter.


Firestone's "Fuel Fighter" tire comes in a usable size, but the 
reviews were awful, many complaints about noise. Michelin's Defender 
had mixed, mostly positive reviews, but came in only one 14" size.


This left me with Hankook Kinergy ST 
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Hankook=Kinergy+ST 
. Lots of 14" size choices, good reviews, "green" manufacturing 
processes, made in USA (always a plus), affordable, 51 PSI inflation 
limit. I don't mean for this to be an advert for Tire Rack, but I've 
had good luck with them, their reviews seem to be good, and it's an 
all-in-one-place to get info.


The Question: Can anyone point me to another site for further 
research on LRR tires, or recommend specific tire choices I should 
consider in the 14" wheel diameter (14" is non-negotiable for this purchase)


The Invicta's were the second set of same that I drove. The first set 
I had to have shipped from Florida, the shipping was almost as 
expensive as the tires (they were rare even then). The second set I 
bought in 2000 at the Santa Cruz, CA flea market. Brand new, still on 
the rims, $75 for all. Getting them into a car along with all the 
travel gear for two people for the trip back to Oregon was the tricky part.


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