Re: [EVDL] FW: EnergyObserver's First Transatlantic Passage a Complete Success ...

2020-05-13 Thread Jan Steinman via EV 
> From: paul dove mailto:dov...@bellsouth.net>>
> 
> The Space Shuttle had a Fuel Cell… Yes, it is inefficient, but it does make 
> long distance travel
> carbon free

I’d agree with POTENTIALLY carbon-free.

But almost all hydrogen produced these days comes from natgas, which, despite 
considerable green-washing, is a big emitter of both carbon and methane, if you 
count drilling to combustion.

Jan

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Re: [EVDL] FW: EnergyObserver's First Transatlantic Passage a Complete Success ...

2020-05-12 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV 
Moreso, because the shuttle uses hydrogen as rocket fuel.  So if they have
it, why not use it for electricity too.
bob


On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 7:08 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV 
wrote:

> > The Space Shuttle had a Fuel Cell.
> >
>
> Which produces fresh water that the astronauts drink.  Having to carry a
> battery AND a water tank would have weighed more.
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Re: [EVDL] FW: EnergyObserver's First Transatlantic Passage a Complete Success ...

2020-05-12 Thread Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 

"While I fully agree that a fuel cell for a car is foolish, the one
limitation of batteries is energy density. In those applications where
energy density is the MOST critical factor, such a LONG distance ocean and
air travel, H2 makes sense as it has 7 times the energy density of
batteries. Yes, it is inefficient, but it does make long distance travel
carbon free, which batteries cannot do."

I don't as a sailor agree with this engineering solution. Lithium batteries are 
heavy enough to provide ballast. The solar panels more efficiently recharge 
that battery. It could in effect be a an infinite motive solution. The fuel 
cell will have to be refueled externally unless the solar system is big enough 
which may be self limiting due to the inefficiency of fuel cells. They also 
won't supply as much ballast. But the upside is the boat won't sink due to all 
the hydrogen tanks. Lawrence Rhodes.  
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Re: [EVDL] FW: EnergyObserver's First Transatlantic Passage a Complete Success ...

2020-05-12 Thread Cor van de Water via EV 
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Re: [EVDL] FW: EnergyObserver's First Transatlantic Passage a Complete Success ...

2020-05-12 Thread Peter VanDerWal via EV 
> The Space Shuttle had a Fuel Cell.
> 

Which produces fresh water that the astronauts drink.  Having to carry a 
battery AND a water tank would have weighed more.
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Re: [EVDL] FW: EnergyObserver's First Transatlantic Passage a Complete Success ...

2020-05-12 Thread paul dove via EV 
 The Space Shuttle had a Fuel Cell.

On Tuesday, May 12, 2020, 1:50:37 PM CDT, Larry Gales via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 While I fully agree that a fuel cell for a car is foolish, the one
limitation of batteries is energy density.  In those applications where
energy density is the MOST critical factor, such a LONG distance ocean and
air travel, H2 makes sense as it has 7 times the energy density of
batteries.  Yes, it is inefficient, but it does make long distance travel
carbon free, which batteries cannot do.

On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 9:09 AM Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> And Toyota does it again.  Promotes hydrogen even when it makes no sense!
> Someone sent me this article.
>
>
> https://www.h2-view.com/story/energy-observer-unprecedented-levels-of-performance-on-first-transatlantic-passage/
>
>
>
> But this article caused me to do some digging, because I was very
> suspicious of their claims of hydrogen power.
>
>
>
> Making one’s own hydrogen from water is a very inefficient process.  And
> sure enough, when I looked it up, the ship can only make hydrogen when it
> is pierside because it needs MORE power than all of its solar panels just
> to make hydrogen (from the grid).
>
>
>
> And as everyone (except Toyota and Honda) know, hydrogen is a boondoggle
> because there is no source of hydrogen on earth other than electrolysis
> from water (which is grossly inefficient use of electricity) when the
> electricity can be better used to power the ship or car in the first
> place.  Right now most hydrogen comes from Natural gas which just throws
> more carbon into the air making it one of the dirty fossil fuels we are
> trying to get away from..
>
>
>
> Yes, hydrogen made sense 10 years ago when it was more cost effective than
> batteries.  But that was before electric cars drove the price of batteries
> down ten-to-one!  Now it is just a boondoggle for some companies to take
> advantage of (ten year old policy) and scam the government for dollars.
> It’s a dead end.
>
>
>
> In the future, when there is so much solar and wind to provide 100% of our
> needs, then there will of course be days of excess power and then it makes
> sense to use that excess power to make hydrogen in bulk.  And then not try
> to figure out how to distribute it to every car or boat tank, but to simply
> use the hydrogen in bulk to make electricity when the solar and winds are
> less.
>
>
>
> Thanks for the article.  I t is good background material.  I cant wait to
> retire and eventually get back to making my own solar boat.
>
>
>
> Bob
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Larry Gales
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Re: [EVDL] FW: EnergyObserver's First Transatlantic Passage a Complete Success ...

2020-05-12 Thread Larry Gales via EV 
While I fully agree that a fuel cell for a car is foolish, the one
limitation of batteries is energy density.  In those applications where
energy density is the MOST critical factor, such a LONG distance ocean and
air travel, H2 makes sense as it has 7 times the energy density of
batteries.  Yes, it is inefficient, but it does make long distance travel
carbon free, which batteries cannot do.

On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 9:09 AM Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> And Toyota does it again.  Promotes hydrogen even when it makes no sense!
> Someone sent me this article.
>
>
> https://www.h2-view.com/story/energy-observer-unprecedented-levels-of-performance-on-first-transatlantic-passage/
>
>
>
> But this article caused me to do some digging, because I was very
> suspicious of their claims of hydrogen power.
>
>
>
> Making one’s own hydrogen from water is a very inefficient process.  And
> sure enough, when I looked it up, the ship can only make hydrogen when it
> is pierside because it needs MORE power than all of its solar panels just
> to make hydrogen (from the grid).
>
>
>
> And as everyone (except Toyota and Honda) know, hydrogen is a boondoggle
> because there is no source of hydrogen on earth other than electrolysis
> from water (which is grossly inefficient use of electricity) when the
> electricity can be better used to power the ship or car in the first
> place.  Right now most hydrogen comes from Natural gas which just throws
> more carbon into the air making it one of the dirty fossil fuels we are
> trying to get away from..
>
>
>
> Yes, hydrogen made sense 10 years ago when it was more cost effective than
> batteries.  But that was before electric cars drove the price of batteries
> down ten-to-one!  Now it is just a boondoggle for some companies to take
> advantage of (ten year old policy) and scam the government for dollars.
> It’s a dead end.
>
>
>
> In the future, when there is so much solar and wind to provide 100% of our
> needs, then there will of course be days of excess power and then it makes
> sense to use that excess power to make hydrogen in bulk.  And then not try
> to figure out how to distribute it to every car or boat tank, but to simply
> use the hydrogen in bulk to make electricity when the solar and winds are
> less.
>
>
>
> Thanks for the article.  I t is good background material.  I cant wait to
> retire and eventually get back to making my own solar boat.
>
>
>
> Bob
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>
>

-- 
Larry Gales
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[EVDL] FW: EnergyObserver's First Transatlantic Passage a Complete Success ...

2020-05-12 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV 
And Toyota does it again.  Promotes hydrogen even when it makes no sense!
Someone sent me this article.

https://www.h2-view.com/story/energy-observer-unprecedented-levels-of-performance-on-first-transatlantic-passage/



But this article caused me to do some digging, because I was very
suspicious of their claims of hydrogen power.



Making one’s own hydrogen from water is a very inefficient process.  And
sure enough, when I looked it up, the ship can only make hydrogen when it
is pierside because it needs MORE power than all of its solar panels just
to make hydrogen (from the grid).



And as everyone (except Toyota and Honda) know, hydrogen is a boondoggle
because there is no source of hydrogen on earth other than electrolysis
from water (which is grossly inefficient use of electricity) when the
electricity can be better used to power the ship or car in the first
place.  Right now most hydrogen comes from Natural gas which just throws
more carbon into the air making it one of the dirty fossil fuels we are
trying to get away from..



Yes, hydrogen made sense 10 years ago when it was more cost effective than
batteries.  But that was before electric cars drove the price of batteries
down ten-to-one!  Now it is just a boondoggle for some companies to take
advantage of (ten year old policy) and scam the government for dollars.
It’s a dead end.



In the future, when there is so much solar and wind to provide 100% of our
needs, then there will of course be days of excess power and then it makes
sense to use that excess power to make hydrogen in bulk.  And then not try
to figure out how to distribute it to every car or boat tank, but to simply
use the hydrogen in bulk to make electricity when the solar and winds are
less.



Thanks for the article.  I t is good background material.  I cant wait to
retire and eventually get back to making my own solar boat.



Bob
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