Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production
On 11 Nov 2016 at 15:38, ROBERT via EV wrote: > I guess concern about people misusing public NEMA receptacles does have some > merit or a least in India. v.gd/BOrzpV (that's a URL -- copy and paste into your browser) terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/electrical-wiring-in-india.5074 (ditto, goes to same place) David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production
Chances are it was jury rigged and had no breakers protecting the line. It's common in India to string wiring every which way from wherever there is an existing power point. It's a wonder there aren't more house fires. I think what the article was saying is there should have been a dedicated circuit for charging. Not really misusing a nema plug but bad wiring and missing or incorrect safety systems. Lawrence > On Nov 11, 2016, at 07:38, ROBERT via EV wrote: > > I guess concern about people misusing public NEMA receptacles does have some > merit or a least in India. > > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/e-Rickshaw-charging-requires-a-separate-AC-power-line-gt-3killed-amp-14injured-by-Delhi-in-fire-td4684414.html > > Electric Vehicle Discussion List - e-Rickshaw charging requires a separate AC > power line> 3killed&14injured by Delhi.in > fire<http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/e-Rickshaw-charging-requires-a-separate-AC-power-line-gt-3killed-amp-14injured-by-Delhi-in-fire-td4684414.html> > electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com > e-Rickshaw charging requires a separate AC power line> 3killed&14injured by > Delhi.in fire. > http://www.nyoooz.com/delhi/651683/three-killed-14-injured-as-fire-breaks-out-in-shahdara-building > ... > > > > > From: ROBERT > Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 4:56 PM > To: ROBERT; Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn > Production > > > Again I must correct myself. I looked back at the J1772 standard and some > past work that I did. An EVSE outputs a 1KHz square wave. The duty cycle of > this wave informs the the vehicle of the maximum amperage that the EVSE can > supply (rated current). The vehicle is responsible for not drawings a > current greater than the EVSE rating. All lower amperage adapters must limit > this duty cycle to the rating of the adapter. As an example. If the EVSE is > rated at 50 amps and the adapter is only rated for 20A, the adapter must > adjust the duty cycle. It is possible to design a 20A adapter with a switch > and a resistor that does not modify the duty cycle from the EVSE. This would > be an unsafe adapter design. These type adapter do exist. You are correct > in stating that no car manufacturer would use this type of design. > > > As happens many times, the discussion in a forum can get side tracked. The > original discussion (I had to look at previous emails) was concerning a large > NEMA plug system vs a large EVSE system for a parking area. I commented that > a NEMA system would works; however, it had some issues. One of the issues > was unsafe adapters usage and another was how does a vehicle with a J1772 > connector know the rating of the NEMA plug. I still stand by these two > issues. Unsafe adapters do exist and there is no way of preventing a person > from using one in an un-monitored parking area. In addition, the vehicle > cannot know the rating of the NEMA receptacle. The adapter can tell the > vehicle the rating of the adapter but not the rating of the NEMA receptacle. > > ________________ > From: EV on behalf of ROBERT via EV > > Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 2:24 PM > To: Roger Stockton; Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn > Production > > How many of these adapters are approved by the vehicle manufacturer and how > many are UL listed? In addition, how many of these adapters come with a list > of vehicles for which they have been tested and certificated by the UL or the > manufacturer? In addition, I know of companies that are selling adapters > that do not issue a pilot signal (square wave). The adapters only have a > switch that show that a vehicle is connected. I guess I should not have > stated "they are not safe to use". I should have stated that these adapters > have not been shown to be as safe as the J1772 connectors installed by the > vehicle manufacturers. > > > Some car manufacturers like Tesla sell adapters. However, these adapters > should not be used with other vehicles. > > > > From: EV on behalf of Roger Stockton via EV > > Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 11:26 AM > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn > Production > > ROBERT via EV wrote: > >> (1) How does a vehicle with a J1772 connector know the rating of the NEMA >> outlet? > > The portable J1772 EVSE c
Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production
I guess concern about people misusing public NEMA receptacles does have some merit or a least in India. http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/e-Rickshaw-charging-requires-a-separate-AC-power-line-gt-3killed-amp-14injured-by-Delhi-in-fire-td4684414.html Electric Vehicle Discussion List - e-Rickshaw charging requires a separate AC power line> 3killed&14injured by Delhi.in fire<http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/e-Rickshaw-charging-requires-a-separate-AC-power-line-gt-3killed-amp-14injured-by-Delhi-in-fire-td4684414.html> electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com e-Rickshaw charging requires a separate AC power line> 3killed&14injured by Delhi.in fire. http://www.nyoooz.com/delhi/651683/three-killed-14-injured-as-fire-breaks-out-in-shahdara-building ... From: ROBERT Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 4:56 PM To: ROBERT; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production Again I must correct myself. I looked back at the J1772 standard and some past work that I did. An EVSE outputs a 1KHz square wave. The duty cycle of this wave informs the the vehicle of the maximum amperage that the EVSE can supply (rated current). The vehicle is responsible for not drawings a current greater than the EVSE rating. All lower amperage adapters must limit this duty cycle to the rating of the adapter. As an example. If the EVSE is rated at 50 amps and the adapter is only rated for 20A, the adapter must adjust the duty cycle. It is possible to design a 20A adapter with a switch and a resistor that does not modify the duty cycle from the EVSE. This would be an unsafe adapter design. These type adapter do exist. You are correct in stating that no car manufacturer would use this type of design. As happens many times, the discussion in a forum can get side tracked. The original discussion (I had to look at previous emails) was concerning a large NEMA plug system vs a large EVSE system for a parking area. I commented that a NEMA system would works; however, it had some issues. One of the issues was unsafe adapters usage and another was how does a vehicle with a J1772 connector know the rating of the NEMA plug. I still stand by these two issues. Unsafe adapters do exist and there is no way of preventing a person from using one in an un-monitored parking area. In addition, the vehicle cannot know the rating of the NEMA receptacle. The adapter can tell the vehicle the rating of the adapter but not the rating of the NEMA receptacle. From: EV on behalf of ROBERT via EV Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 2:24 PM To: Roger Stockton; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production How many of these adapters are approved by the vehicle manufacturer and how many are UL listed? In addition, how many of these adapters come with a list of vehicles for which they have been tested and certificated by the UL or the manufacturer? In addition, I know of companies that are selling adapters that do not issue a pilot signal (square wave). The adapters only have a switch that show that a vehicle is connected. I guess I should not have stated "they are not safe to use". I should have stated that these adapters have not been shown to be as safe as the J1772 connectors installed by the vehicle manufacturers. Some car manufacturers like Tesla sell adapters. However, these adapters should not be used with other vehicles. From: EV on behalf of Roger Stockton via EV Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 11:26 AM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production ROBERT via EV wrote: > (1) How does a vehicle with a J1772 connector know the rating of the NEMA > outlet? The portable J1772 EVSE charging cord/adapter tells the vehicle via the pilot signal how much AC current may be drawn. A 120V J1772 cord will almost certainly tell the vehicle not to draw more than 12A, so that it is safe to use on any 15A or 20A 120V outlet. I believe that some aftermarket cords may be available with a 16A pilot signal or the ability for the user to configure the cord for either 12A or 16A, however, I an unaware of an OEM cord with this capability. > One can buy a J1772 to NEMA > adapter; however, they are not safe to use. All these adapters "fake out" > the EVSE and the user must be aware of the limitations. It would not > surprise me to see these adapters outlawed. I'm not sure what sort of adapter you are thinking of. As far as I know, every OEM that offers an EV with a J1772 charge inlet wither includes or offers a 120V J1772 "opportunity charge" cord. This
Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production
I quit.
From: EV on behalf of Roger Stockton via EV
Sent: Wednesday, November 9, 2016 11:52 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production
ROBERT via EV wrote:
> Roger, let me try to clarify my concern. A person buys a third party
> J1772 to NEMA adapter (made in China and made cheap). The adapter has a
> NEMA rated 20A plug. The adapter does not produce a modified pilot
> signal.
Just to be clear, the adapter does not (*cannot*) produce a modified pilot
signal since the NEMA outlet has no provision for a pilot signal connection and
the charger that plugs into the NEMA outlet does not require a pilot signal.
The pilot signal *from* the J1772 EVSE is one-way only; that is, it is
generated by the EVSE to inform the load of the maximum current that may be
drawn *at that particular time* (i.e. while the EVSE may be capable of up to
50A, it is possible for it to limit the current available to the load to any
value less than this at any time). There is no way for a J1772 charger or
adapter connected to the EVSE to tell the EVSE to reduce the maximum available
current.
> I take the cord and plug from the EVSE that is rated at 50A and
> plug into the adapter. I take the 20A coil and plug from the charger in
> my converted car and plug into the adapter. The charger will not draw
> more than 20A from the EVSE. This is OK load wise because the EVSE can
> output 50A. However, it is an unsafe circuit. I have connected a 50A
> rated source to a 20A circuit with no interconnecting protection
> device.
I understand your concern with this configuration now. I agree that the EVSE
breaker will not provide adequate protection for a lower current rated
J1772-to-NEMA adapter connected between the EVSE and the load (charger). Note
that this scenario is irrelevant in the situation where a NEMA outlet is
provided at each parking spot as the charging infrastructure (which is what was
proposed).
Note also that any charger with any safety agency (CSA, UL, etc.) listing
*will* have a protection device at its input appropriately rated to protect it.
In this case the safety concern reduces to a user who tries to use an adapter
that is under-rated for their charger (but still does not apply to the
situation of a NEMA outlet charging infrastructure).
> Lets go the other direction. I have a NEMA to J1772 adapter
> with no pilot signal.
This situation is *not* possible. The reason you have a NEMA to J1772 adapter
is to provide a J1772 connection to the charger, and the J1772 charger
*requires* a pilot signal from the EVSE ("adapter", in this case). The adapter
*must* provide a pilot signal, the only question is if it provides a pilot
signal that is appropriate for the rating of the NEMA outlet/circuit that it is
plugged into.
> If the cable from the adapter is plugged into a car
> with a 50A charger, the circuit breaker will trip
No. Since the J1772 charger requires a pilot signal, and the EVSE/adapter must
provide one, the 50A rated charger will draw no more than the amount of current
signalled by the pilot signal. In the absence of a pilot signal, the charger
will not draw *any* current.
The only safety concern when using a NEMA to J1772 adapter is that the adapter
might generate a pilot signal that allows the charger to draw more current than
the NEMA outlet/circuit it is plugged into is rated for.
This should not occur for any competently designed adapter. As I described in
my prior post, if a 120V NEMA to J1772 opportunity charge cord (adapter) has a
5-15P NEMA plug at the wall end, then it "knows" that no matter what the supply
circuit it is powered from might be rated for (i.e. 15A or 20A), it cannot
allow the load to draw more than 12A since its own connector is only rated for
15A (and such a circuit is limited to 12A max continuous loading). If it has a
5-20P NEMA plug at the wall end, then it "knows" that it can allow the load to
draw up to 16A since its connector (and wiring) are rated for 20A and it can
only be plugged into a receptacle/circuit rated for 20A.
In the event of use of an incompetently or unsafely designed adapter that
generates a pilot signal allowing the charger to draw more current than the
NEMA outlet it is powered from can safely deliver, the protection device
between the supply and the NEMA outlet will trip and safely protect all
connected devices.
I think that there is actually very little safety concern with a NEMA outlet
charging infrastructure since the vast majority of people using NEMA to J1772
adapters will be owners of OEM EVs and using the OEM opportunity charge cord
provided by the OEM (i.e. competently designed adapters).
The main advantage of the NEMA outlet infrastructure, IMO, is that there are no
charge cords left at each park
Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production
ROBERT via EV wrote:
> Roger, let me try to clarify my concern. A person buys a third party
> J1772 to NEMA adapter (made in China and made cheap). The adapter has a
> NEMA rated 20A plug. The adapter does not produce a modified pilot
> signal.
Just to be clear, the adapter does not (*cannot*) produce a modified pilot
signal since the NEMA outlet has no provision for a pilot signal connection and
the charger that plugs into the NEMA outlet does not require a pilot signal.
The pilot signal *from* the J1772 EVSE is one-way only; that is, it is
generated by the EVSE to inform the load of the maximum current that may be
drawn *at that particular time* (i.e. while the EVSE may be capable of up to
50A, it is possible for it to limit the current available to the load to any
value less than this at any time). There is no way for a J1772 charger or
adapter connected to the EVSE to tell the EVSE to reduce the maximum available
current.
> I take the cord and plug from the EVSE that is rated at 50A and
> plug into the adapter. I take the 20A coil and plug from the charger in
> my converted car and plug into the adapter. The charger will not draw
> more than 20A from the EVSE. This is OK load wise because the EVSE can
> output 50A. However, it is an unsafe circuit. I have connected a 50A
> rated source to a 20A circuit with no interconnecting protection
> device.
I understand your concern with this configuration now. I agree that the EVSE
breaker will not provide adequate protection for a lower current rated
J1772-to-NEMA adapter connected between the EVSE and the load (charger). Note
that this scenario is irrelevant in the situation where a NEMA outlet is
provided at each parking spot as the charging infrastructure (which is what was
proposed).
Note also that any charger with any safety agency (CSA, UL, etc.) listing
*will* have a protection device at its input appropriately rated to protect it.
In this case the safety concern reduces to a user who tries to use an adapter
that is under-rated for their charger (but still does not apply to the
situation of a NEMA outlet charging infrastructure).
> Lets go the other direction. I have a NEMA to J1772 adapter
> with no pilot signal.
This situation is *not* possible. The reason you have a NEMA to J1772 adapter
is to provide a J1772 connection to the charger, and the J1772 charger
*requires* a pilot signal from the EVSE ("adapter", in this case). The adapter
*must* provide a pilot signal, the only question is if it provides a pilot
signal that is appropriate for the rating of the NEMA outlet/circuit that it is
plugged into.
> If the cable from the adapter is plugged into a car
> with a 50A charger, the circuit breaker will trip
No. Since the J1772 charger requires a pilot signal, and the EVSE/adapter must
provide one, the 50A rated charger will draw no more than the amount of current
signalled by the pilot signal. In the absence of a pilot signal, the charger
will not draw *any* current.
The only safety concern when using a NEMA to J1772 adapter is that the adapter
might generate a pilot signal that allows the charger to draw more current than
the NEMA outlet/circuit it is plugged into is rated for.
This should not occur for any competently designed adapter. As I described in
my prior post, if a 120V NEMA to J1772 opportunity charge cord (adapter) has a
5-15P NEMA plug at the wall end, then it "knows" that no matter what the supply
circuit it is powered from might be rated for (i.e. 15A or 20A), it cannot
allow the load to draw more than 12A since its own connector is only rated for
15A (and such a circuit is limited to 12A max continuous loading). If it has a
5-20P NEMA plug at the wall end, then it "knows" that it can allow the load to
draw up to 16A since its connector (and wiring) are rated for 20A and it can
only be plugged into a receptacle/circuit rated for 20A.
In the event of use of an incompetently or unsafely designed adapter that
generates a pilot signal allowing the charger to draw more current than the
NEMA outlet it is powered from can safely deliver, the protection device
between the supply and the NEMA outlet will trip and safely protect all
connected devices.
I think that there is actually very little safety concern with a NEMA outlet
charging infrastructure since the vast majority of people using NEMA to J1772
adapters will be owners of OEM EVs and using the OEM opportunity charge cord
provided by the OEM (i.e. competently designed adapters).
The main advantage of the NEMA outlet infrastructure, IMO, is that there are no
charge cords left at each parking stall to be vandalised or stolen, however,
the big disadvantage is that the vast majority (is anybody still building
conversions?) of EVs that will use the charging infrastructure *don't* have
NEMA connectors, but rather J1772 charge inlets. So, each EV must carry around
a NEMA to J1772 opportunity charge cord/adapter to pl
Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production
Have you ever seen the J1772 Induction system from 15 years ago? The connector was a block about the size of a paperback book with a heavy cable going back to a suitcase size control box. Conduction charging like the modern J1772 is very efficient with just wire and connector losses. The Induction systems peak out at about 80% efficiency, power line to actual load, so they waste 20% of the power intended to be transferred. I will agree that there can be increased safety with the induction designs but they were no simpler to use and much more costly in the car and at the EVSE than the current J1772 conductive system. David Kerzel -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV Sent: Wednesday, November 9, 2016 8:12 AM To: Robert Bruninga ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production I agree. The EVSE functionality needs to be included in the car. I do not like the EVSE concept. An induction system is safer and simpler to use. GM may have killed the EV1; however, they got the technology correct. From: EV on behalf of Robert Bruninga via EV Sent: Wednesday, November 9, 2016 8:20 AM To: David Kerzel; Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Roger Stockton Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production But at the house end of the EVSE, It is still just a simple plug into 120 volt standard socket. If the EVSE stuff is built-into the car, then all the safety issues are identical. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Kerzel via EV Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2016 10:06 AM To: 'Roger Stockton'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production The biggest cost for either system is posible litigation when someone get injured. The risk is electrical from EV users and vandals to someone tripping over a cable. J1772 is about safety and preventing injury, the complex multi-level guarding of the connection, GFI, and power is off before the connector is mated to or separated from the car. The price of quality EVSE has been continually dropping and will continue to do so as more EVs get on the road. David Kerzel -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Roger Stockton via EV Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 4:37 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production ROBERT via EV wrote: > Again I must correct myself. I looked back at the J1772 standard and > some past work that I did. An EVSE outputs a 1KHz square wave. The > duty cycle of this wave informs the the vehicle of the maximum > amperage that the EVSE can supply (rated current). The vehicle is > responsible for not drawings a current greater than the EVSE rating. Yes. > All lower amperage adapters must > limit this duty cycle to the rating of the adapter. As an example. > If the EVSE is rated at 50 amps and the adapter is only rated for 20A, > the adapter must adjust the duty cycle. This is where you lose me. If the EVSE is rated for 50A, then it generates a pilot signal that informs the vehicle/charger that it can draw up to this amount. There is no need or purpose for an adapter between the EVSE and a vehicle unless the vehicle does not have a J1772 inlet. If the vehicle doesn't have a J1772 inlet, then it also doesn't need (or understand) the J1772 pilot signal and so there is no need for an adapter to generate a pilot signal limiting the vehicle to a lower current than the EVSE is capable of providing. > It is possible to design a 20A > adapter with a switch and a resistor that does not modify the duty > cycle from the EVSE. Yes, and this adapter is used to convert a J1772 EVSE *into* a NEMA receptacle so that a non-J1772 compliant EV/charger may be plugged into a public charging station. This is exactly the opposite of what would be required or used if NEMA receptacles were provided at each charging stall. Most of us with conversion EVs have chargers that can plug directly into a NEMA outlet, and would not need an adapter more sophisticated than an extension cord. Those of us with production EVs (other than Teslas, perhaps) will have J1772 inlets and will need to use our J1772 "opportunity charge" cords; these are effectively "smart" extension cords with a NEMA plug on the wall end, a J1772 charge paddle on the vehicle end, and a small EVSE in between that provides the appropriate pilot signal for the vehicle/charger. If the NEMA plug on the wall end of the opportunity charge cord is a NEMA 5-15P, then the pilot signal should (must!) tell the charger not to draw more than 12A. If the cord has a NEMA 5-20P
Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production
I agree. The EVSE functionality needs to be included in the car. I do not like the EVSE concept. An induction system is safer and simpler to use. GM may have killed the EV1; however, they got the technology correct. From: EV on behalf of Robert Bruninga via EV Sent: Wednesday, November 9, 2016 8:20 AM To: David Kerzel; Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Roger Stockton Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production But at the house end of the EVSE, It is still just a simple plug into 120 volt standard socket. If the EVSE stuff is built-into the car, then all the safety issues are identical. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Kerzel via EV Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2016 10:06 AM To: 'Roger Stockton'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production The biggest cost for either system is posible litigation when someone get injured. The risk is electrical from EV users and vandals to someone tripping over a cable. J1772 is about safety and preventing injury, the complex multi-level guarding of the connection, GFI, and power is off before the connector is mated to or separated from the car. The price of quality EVSE has been continually dropping and will continue to do so as more EVs get on the road. David Kerzel -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Roger Stockton via EV Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 4:37 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production ROBERT via EV wrote: > Again I must correct myself. I looked back at the J1772 standard and > some past work that I did. An EVSE outputs a 1KHz square wave. The > duty cycle of this wave informs the the vehicle of the maximum > amperage that the EVSE can supply (rated current). The vehicle is > responsible for not drawings a current greater than the EVSE rating. Yes. > All lower amperage adapters must > limit this duty cycle to the rating of the adapter. As an example. > If the EVSE is rated at 50 amps and the adapter is only rated for 20A, > the adapter must adjust the duty cycle. This is where you lose me. If the EVSE is rated for 50A, then it generates a pilot signal that informs the vehicle/charger that it can draw up to this amount. There is no need or purpose for an adapter between the EVSE and a vehicle unless the vehicle does not have a J1772 inlet. If the vehicle doesn't have a J1772 inlet, then it also doesn't need (or understand) the J1772 pilot signal and so there is no need for an adapter to generate a pilot signal limiting the vehicle to a lower current than the EVSE is capable of providing. > It is possible to design a 20A > adapter with a switch and a resistor that does not modify the duty > cycle from the EVSE. Yes, and this adapter is used to convert a J1772 EVSE *into* a NEMA receptacle so that a non-J1772 compliant EV/charger may be plugged into a public charging station. This is exactly the opposite of what would be required or used if NEMA receptacles were provided at each charging stall. Most of us with conversion EVs have chargers that can plug directly into a NEMA outlet, and would not need an adapter more sophisticated than an extension cord. Those of us with production EVs (other than Teslas, perhaps) will have J1772 inlets and will need to use our J1772 "opportunity charge" cords; these are effectively "smart" extension cords with a NEMA plug on the wall end, a J1772 charge paddle on the vehicle end, and a small EVSE in between that provides the appropriate pilot signal for the vehicle/charger. If the NEMA plug on the wall end of the opportunity charge cord is a NEMA 5-15P, then the pilot signal should (must!) tell the charger not to draw more than 12A. If the cord has a NEMA 5-20P plug, then the pilot signal can allow the charger to draw up to 16A (since this plug can only mate with a receptacle on a 20A rated circuit). Even if the J1772 opportunity charge cord were to tell the charger it is OK to draw more current than the NEMA receptacle and circuit are rated for, there should be no safety issue: the NEMA receptacle and its associated supply wiring will be protected by an appropriately rated breaker and the breaker will simply open. Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel'
Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production
But at the house end of the EVSE, It is still just a simple plug into 120 volt standard socket. If the EVSE stuff is built-into the car, then all the safety issues are identical. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Kerzel via EV Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2016 10:06 AM To: 'Roger Stockton'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production The biggest cost for either system is posible litigation when someone get injured. The risk is electrical from EV users and vandals to someone tripping over a cable. J1772 is about safety and preventing injury, the complex multi-level guarding of the connection, GFI, and power is off before the connector is mated to or separated from the car. The price of quality EVSE has been continually dropping and will continue to do so as more EVs get on the road. David Kerzel -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Roger Stockton via EV Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 4:37 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production ROBERT via EV wrote: > Again I must correct myself. I looked back at the J1772 standard and > some past work that I did. An EVSE outputs a 1KHz square wave. The > duty cycle of this wave informs the the vehicle of the maximum > amperage that the EVSE can supply (rated current). The vehicle is > responsible for not drawings a current greater than the EVSE rating. Yes. > All lower amperage adapters must > limit this duty cycle to the rating of the adapter. As an example. > If the EVSE is rated at 50 amps and the adapter is only rated for 20A, > the adapter must adjust the duty cycle. This is where you lose me. If the EVSE is rated for 50A, then it generates a pilot signal that informs the vehicle/charger that it can draw up to this amount. There is no need or purpose for an adapter between the EVSE and a vehicle unless the vehicle does not have a J1772 inlet. If the vehicle doesn't have a J1772 inlet, then it also doesn't need (or understand) the J1772 pilot signal and so there is no need for an adapter to generate a pilot signal limiting the vehicle to a lower current than the EVSE is capable of providing. > It is possible to design a 20A > adapter with a switch and a resistor that does not modify the duty > cycle from the EVSE. Yes, and this adapter is used to convert a J1772 EVSE *into* a NEMA receptacle so that a non-J1772 compliant EV/charger may be plugged into a public charging station. This is exactly the opposite of what would be required or used if NEMA receptacles were provided at each charging stall. Most of us with conversion EVs have chargers that can plug directly into a NEMA outlet, and would not need an adapter more sophisticated than an extension cord. Those of us with production EVs (other than Teslas, perhaps) will have J1772 inlets and will need to use our J1772 "opportunity charge" cords; these are effectively "smart" extension cords with a NEMA plug on the wall end, a J1772 charge paddle on the vehicle end, and a small EVSE in between that provides the appropriate pilot signal for the vehicle/charger. If the NEMA plug on the wall end of the opportunity charge cord is a NEMA 5-15P, then the pilot signal should (must!) tell the charger not to draw more than 12A. If the cord has a NEMA 5-20P plug, then the pilot signal can allow the charger to draw up to 16A (since this plug can only mate with a receptacle on a 20A rated circuit). Even if the J1772 opportunity charge cord were to tell the charger it is OK to draw more current than the NEMA receptacle and circuit are rated for, there should be no safety issue: the NEMA receptacle and its associated supply wiring will be protected by an appropriately rated breaker and the breaker will simply open. Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production
The biggest cost for either system is posible litigation when someone get injured. The risk is electrical from EV users and vandals to someone tripping over a cable. J1772 is about safety and preventing injury, the complex multi-level guarding of the connection, GFI, and power is off before the connector is mated to or separated from the car. The price of quality EVSE has been continually dropping and will continue to do so as more EVs get on the road. David Kerzel -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Roger Stockton via EV Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 4:37 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production ROBERT via EV wrote: > Again I must correct myself. I looked back at the J1772 standard and > some past work that I did. An EVSE outputs a 1KHz square wave. The > duty cycle of this wave informs the the vehicle of the maximum > amperage that the EVSE can supply (rated current). The vehicle is > responsible for not drawings a current greater than the EVSE rating. Yes. > All lower amperage adapters must > limit this duty cycle to the rating of the adapter. As an example. > If the EVSE is rated at 50 amps and the adapter is only rated for 20A, > the adapter must adjust the duty cycle. This is where you lose me. If the EVSE is rated for 50A, then it generates a pilot signal that informs the vehicle/charger that it can draw up to this amount. There is no need or purpose for an adapter between the EVSE and a vehicle unless the vehicle does not have a J1772 inlet. If the vehicle doesn't have a J1772 inlet, then it also doesn't need (or understand) the J1772 pilot signal and so there is no need for an adapter to generate a pilot signal limiting the vehicle to a lower current than the EVSE is capable of providing. > It is possible to design a 20A > adapter with a switch and a resistor that does not modify the duty > cycle from the EVSE. Yes, and this adapter is used to convert a J1772 EVSE *into* a NEMA receptacle so that a non-J1772 compliant EV/charger may be plugged into a public charging station. This is exactly the opposite of what would be required or used if NEMA receptacles were provided at each charging stall. Most of us with conversion EVs have chargers that can plug directly into a NEMA outlet, and would not need an adapter more sophisticated than an extension cord. Those of us with production EVs (other than Teslas, perhaps) will have J1772 inlets and will need to use our J1772 "opportunity charge" cords; these are effectively "smart" extension cords with a NEMA plug on the wall end, a J1772 charge paddle on the vehicle end, and a small EVSE in between that provides the appropriate pilot signal for the vehicle/charger. If the NEMA plug on the wall end of the opportunity charge cord is a NEMA 5-15P, then the pilot signal should (must!) tell the charger not to draw more than 12A. If the cord has a NEMA 5-20P plug, then the pilot signal can allow the charger to draw up to 16A (since this plug can only mate with a receptacle on a 20A rated circuit). Even if the J1772 opportunity charge cord were to tell the charger it is OK to draw more current than the NEMA receptacle and circuit are rated for, there should be no safety issue: the NEMA receptacle and its associated supply wiring will be protected by an appropriately rated breaker and the breaker will simply open. Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production
Roger, let me try to clarify my concern. A person buys a third party J1772 to NEMA adapter (made in China and made cheap). The adapter has a NEMA rated 20A plug. The adapter does not produce a modified pilot signal. I take the cord and plug from the EVSE that is rated at 50A and plug into the adapter. I take the 20A coil and plug from the charger in my converted car and plug into the adapter. The charger will not draw more than 20A from the EVSE. This is OK load wise because the EVSE can output 50A. However, it is an unsafe circuit. I have connected a 50A rated source to a 20A circuit with no interconnecting protection device. This is no different than connecting a 12AWG wire to a 50A breaker. Lets go the other direction. I have a NEMA to J1772 adapter with no pilot signal. If the cable from the adapter is plugged into a car with a 50A charger, the circuit breaker will trip (you described this situation in your email). This is an unsafe operation. A circuit bre aker is designed to protect the cable not the end load. You can check the NEC to verify this is a true statement. Circuit breaker are not used for end load protection. The end load device must have its own protection. If I have a large scale NEMA receptacle system, I cannot prevent people from using "bad equipment" or "bad configurations of equipment". If I use a EVSE system with approved equipment, these unsafe situations are minimized. This was my point when I made this statement concerning unsafe adapters and a large size NEMA plug installation. From: EV on behalf of Roger Stockton via EV Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 5:36 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production ROBERT via EV wrote: > Again I must correct myself. I looked back at the J1772 standard and some > past work that I did. An EVSE outputs a 1KHz square wave. The duty cycle > of this wave informs the the vehicle of the maximum amperage that the EVSE > can supply (rated current). The vehicle is responsible for not drawings a > current greater than the EVSE rating. Yes. > All lower amperage adapters must > limit this duty cycle to the rating of the adapter. As an example. If > the EVSE is rated at 50 amps and the adapter is only rated for 20A, the > adapter must adjust the duty cycle. This is where you lose me. If the EVSE is rated for 50A, then it generates a pilot signal that informs the vehicle/charger that it can draw up to this amount. There is no need or purpose for an adapter between the EVSE and a vehicle unless the vehicle does not have a J1772 inlet. If the vehicle doesn't have a J1772 inlet, then it also doesn't need (or understand) the J1772 pilot signal and so there is no need for an adapter to generate a pilot signal limiting the vehicle to a lower current than the EVSE is capable of providing. > It is possible to design a 20A > adapter with a switch and a resistor that does not modify the duty cycle > from the EVSE. Yes, and this adapter is used to convert a J1772 EVSE *into* a NEMA receptacle so that a non-J1772 compliant EV/charger may be plugged into a public charging station. This is exactly the opposite of what would be required or used if NEMA receptacles were provided at each charging stall. Most of us with conversion EVs have chargers that can plug directly into a NEMA outlet, and would not need an adapter more sophisticated than an extension cord. Those of us with production EVs (other than Teslas, perhaps) will have J1772 inlets and will need to use our J1772 "opportunity charge" cords; these are effectively "smart" extension cords with a NEMA plug on the wall end, a J1772 charge paddle on the vehicle end, and a small EVSE in between that provides the appropriate pilot signal for the vehicle/charger. If the NEMA plug on the wall end of the opportunity charge cord is a NEMA 5-15P, then the pilot signal should (must!) tell the charger not to draw more than 12A. If the cord has a NEMA 5-20P plug, then the pilot signal can allow the charger to draw up to 16A (since this plug can only mate with a receptacle on a 20A rated circuit). Even if the J1772 opportunity charge cord were to tell the charger it is OK to draw more current than the NEMA receptacle and circuit are rated for, there should be no safety issue: the NEMA receptacle and its associated supply wiring will be protected by an appropriately rated breaker and the breaker will simply open. Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org EV -- Electric Vehicle Discussion List - lists.evdl.org ...<http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org> lists.evdl.org The Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production
ROBERT via EV wrote: > Again I must correct myself. I looked back at the J1772 standard and some > past work that I did. An EVSE outputs a 1KHz square wave. The duty cycle > of this wave informs the the vehicle of the maximum amperage that the EVSE > can supply (rated current). The vehicle is responsible for not drawings a > current greater than the EVSE rating. Yes. > All lower amperage adapters must > limit this duty cycle to the rating of the adapter. As an example. If > the EVSE is rated at 50 amps and the adapter is only rated for 20A, the > adapter must adjust the duty cycle. This is where you lose me. If the EVSE is rated for 50A, then it generates a pilot signal that informs the vehicle/charger that it can draw up to this amount. There is no need or purpose for an adapter between the EVSE and a vehicle unless the vehicle does not have a J1772 inlet. If the vehicle doesn't have a J1772 inlet, then it also doesn't need (or understand) the J1772 pilot signal and so there is no need for an adapter to generate a pilot signal limiting the vehicle to a lower current than the EVSE is capable of providing. > It is possible to design a 20A > adapter with a switch and a resistor that does not modify the duty cycle > from the EVSE. Yes, and this adapter is used to convert a J1772 EVSE *into* a NEMA receptacle so that a non-J1772 compliant EV/charger may be plugged into a public charging station. This is exactly the opposite of what would be required or used if NEMA receptacles were provided at each charging stall. Most of us with conversion EVs have chargers that can plug directly into a NEMA outlet, and would not need an adapter more sophisticated than an extension cord. Those of us with production EVs (other than Teslas, perhaps) will have J1772 inlets and will need to use our J1772 "opportunity charge" cords; these are effectively "smart" extension cords with a NEMA plug on the wall end, a J1772 charge paddle on the vehicle end, and a small EVSE in between that provides the appropriate pilot signal for the vehicle/charger. If the NEMA plug on the wall end of the opportunity charge cord is a NEMA 5-15P, then the pilot signal should (must!) tell the charger not to draw more than 12A. If the cord has a NEMA 5-20P plug, then the pilot signal can allow the charger to draw up to 16A (since this plug can only mate with a receptacle on a 20A rated circuit). Even if the J1772 opportunity charge cord were to tell the charger it is OK to draw more current than the NEMA receptacle and circuit are rated for, there should be no safety issue: the NEMA receptacle and its associated supply wiring will be protected by an appropriately rated breaker and the breaker will simply open. Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production
I think that in general a 120v 20A receptacle at each parking stall would do most drivers in an office tower - we have at least one in Vancouver here. In a mall or other shorter term parking situation a small set of full J1772 L2 chargers is probably the best solution. Lawrence > On Nov 8, 2016, at 15:56, ROBERT via EV wrote: > > Again I must correct myself. I looked back at the J1772 standard and some > past work that I did. An EVSE outputs a 1KHz square wave. The duty cycle of > this wave informs the the vehicle of the maximum amperage that the EVSE can > supply (rated current). The vehicle is responsible for not drawings a > current greater than the EVSE rating. All lower amperage adapters must limit > this duty cycle to the rating of the adapter. As an example. If the EVSE is > rated at 50 amps and the adapter is only rated for 20A, the adapter must > adjust the duty cycle. It is possible to design a 20A adapter with a switch > and a resistor that does not modify the duty cycle from the EVSE. This would > be an unsafe adapter design. These type adapter do exist. You are correct > in stating that no car manufacturer would use this type of design. > > > As happens many times, the discussion in a forum can get side tracked. The > original discussion (I had to look at previous emails) was concerning a large > NEMA plug system vs a large EVSE system for a parking area. I commented that > a NEMA system would works; however, it had some issues. One of the issues > was unsafe adapters usage and another was how does a vehicle with a J1772 > connector know the rating of the NEMA plug. I still stand by these two > issues. Unsafe adapters do exist and there is no way of preventing a person > from using one in an un-monitored parking area. In addition, the vehicle > cannot know the rating of the NEMA receptacle. The adapter can tell the > vehicle the rating of the adapter but not the rating of the NEMA receptacle. > > > From: EV on behalf of ROBERT via EV > > Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 2:24 PM > To: Roger Stockton; Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn > Production > > How many of these adapters are approved by the vehicle manufacturer and how > many are UL listed? In addition, how many of these adapters come with a list > of vehicles for which they have been tested and certificated by the UL or the > manufacturer? In addition, I know of companies that are selling adapters > that do not issue a pilot signal (square wave). The adapters only have a > switch that show that a vehicle is connected. I guess I should not have > stated "they are not safe to use". I should have stated that these adapters > have not been shown to be as safe as the J1772 connectors installed by the > vehicle manufacturers. > > > Some car manufacturers like Tesla sell adapters. However, these adapters > should not be used with other vehicles. > > > ____________ > From: EV on behalf of Roger Stockton via EV > > Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 11:26 AM > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn > Production > > ROBERT via EV wrote: > >> (1) How does a vehicle with a J1772 connector know the rating of the NEMA >> outlet? > > The portable J1772 EVSE charging cord/adapter tells the vehicle via the pilot > signal how much AC current may be drawn. A 120V J1772 cord will almost > certainly tell the vehicle not to draw more than 12A, so that it is safe to > use on any 15A or 20A 120V outlet. I believe that some aftermarket cords may > be available with a 16A pilot signal or the ability for the user to configure > the cord for either 12A or 16A, however, I an unaware of an OEM cord with > this capability. > >> One can buy a J1772 to NEMA >> adapter; however, they are not safe to use. All these adapters "fake out" >> the EVSE and the user must be aware of the limitations. It would not >> surprise me to see these adapters outlawed. > > I'm not sure what sort of adapter you are thinking of. As far as I know, > every OEM that offers an EV with a J1772 charge inlet wither includes or > offers a 120V J1772 "opportunity charge" cord. This cord *is* a proper J1772 > EVSE and not only provides an appropriate pilot signal to the vehicle, but > also does not energise the charging plug until it senses that it is mated > with a J1772 receptacle. > > I can't see how one of these NEMA to J1772 opportunity charge cords can > possibly be *less* safe than an ordinary NEMA
Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production
Again I must correct myself. I looked back at the J1772 standard and some past work that I did. An EVSE outputs a 1KHz square wave. The duty cycle of this wave informs the the vehicle of the maximum amperage that the EVSE can supply (rated current). The vehicle is responsible for not drawings a current greater than the EVSE rating. All lower amperage adapters must limit this duty cycle to the rating of the adapter. As an example. If the EVSE is rated at 50 amps and the adapter is only rated for 20A, the adapter must adjust the duty cycle. It is possible to design a 20A adapter with a switch and a resistor that does not modify the duty cycle from the EVSE. This would be an unsafe adapter design. These type adapter do exist. You are correct in stating that no car manufacturer would use this type of design. As happens many times, the discussion in a forum can get side tracked. The original discussion (I had to look at previous emails) was concerning a large NEMA plug system vs a large EVSE system for a parking area. I commented that a NEMA system would works; however, it had some issues. One of the issues was unsafe adapters usage and another was how does a vehicle with a J1772 connector know the rating of the NEMA plug. I still stand by these two issues. Unsafe adapters do exist and there is no way of preventing a person from using one in an un-monitored parking area. In addition, the vehicle cannot know the rating of the NEMA receptacle. The adapter can tell the vehicle the rating of the adapter but not the rating of the NEMA receptacle. From: EV on behalf of ROBERT via EV Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 2:24 PM To: Roger Stockton; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production How many of these adapters are approved by the vehicle manufacturer and how many are UL listed? In addition, how many of these adapters come with a list of vehicles for which they have been tested and certificated by the UL or the manufacturer? In addition, I know of companies that are selling adapters that do not issue a pilot signal (square wave). The adapters only have a switch that show that a vehicle is connected. I guess I should not have stated "they are not safe to use". I should have stated that these adapters have not been shown to be as safe as the J1772 connectors installed by the vehicle manufacturers. Some car manufacturers like Tesla sell adapters. However, these adapters should not be used with other vehicles. From: EV on behalf of Roger Stockton via EV Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 11:26 AM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production ROBERT via EV wrote: > (1) How does a vehicle with a J1772 connector know the rating of the NEMA > outlet? The portable J1772 EVSE charging cord/adapter tells the vehicle via the pilot signal how much AC current may be drawn. A 120V J1772 cord will almost certainly tell the vehicle not to draw more than 12A, so that it is safe to use on any 15A or 20A 120V outlet. I believe that some aftermarket cords may be available with a 16A pilot signal or the ability for the user to configure the cord for either 12A or 16A, however, I an unaware of an OEM cord with this capability. > One can buy a J1772 to NEMA > adapter; however, they are not safe to use. All these adapters "fake out" > the EVSE and the user must be aware of the limitations. It would not > surprise me to see these adapters outlawed. I'm not sure what sort of adapter you are thinking of. As far as I know, every OEM that offers an EV with a J1772 charge inlet wither includes or offers a 120V J1772 "opportunity charge" cord. This cord *is* a proper J1772 EVSE and not only provides an appropriate pilot signal to the vehicle, but also does not energise the charging plug until it senses that it is mated with a J1772 receptacle. I can't see how one of these NEMA to J1772 opportunity charge cords can possibly be *less* safe than an ordinary NEMA extension cord between the outlet and a charger on the vehicle. Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org EV -- Electric Vehicle Discussion List - lists.evdl.org ...<http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org> lists.evdl.org The Electric Vehicle Discussion List is a forum for discussing the current state of the art and future direction of electric vehicles (EVs). We define an EV as a ... EV -- Electric Vehicle Discussion List - lists.evdl.org ...<http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org> EV -- Electric Vehicle Discussion List - lists.evdl.org ...<http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.
Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production
ROBERT via EV wrote:
> How many of these adapters are approved by the vehicle manufacturer and
> how many are UL listed?
I would expect that every J1772 opportunity charge cord ("adapter") provided by
a vehicle OEM will be UL listed and is clearly approved by that vehicle OEM for
use with their vehicle(s).
> In addition, I know of companies that are selling
> adapters that do not issue a pilot signal (square wave). The adapters
> only have a switch that show that a vehicle is connected.
This sort of adapter would be used by a non-OEM EV to charge *from* a J1772
EVSE (such as a public Level 2 charging station). A J1772-compliant EV will
not charge unless the EVSE/adapter provides a valid pilot signal, however, a
J1772-compliant EVSE (charging station) *will* provide AC to a non-J1772
compliant EV/charger as long as the adapter loads the EVSE pilot signal
appropriately.
Cheers,
Roger.
___
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Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production
How many of these adapters are approved by the vehicle manufacturer and how
many are UL listed? In addition, how many of these adapters come with a list
of vehicles for which they have been tested and certificated by the UL or the
manufacturer? In addition, I know of companies that are selling adapters that
do not issue a pilot signal (square wave). The adapters only have a switch
that show that a vehicle is connected. I guess I should not have stated "they
are not safe to use". I should have stated that these adapters have not been
shown to be as safe as the J1772 connectors installed by the vehicle
manufacturers.
Some car manufacturers like Tesla sell adapters. However, these adapters should
not be used with other vehicles.
From: EV on behalf of Roger Stockton via EV
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 11:26 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production
ROBERT via EV wrote:
> (1) How does a vehicle with a J1772 connector know the rating of the NEMA
> outlet?
The portable J1772 EVSE charging cord/adapter tells the vehicle via the pilot
signal how much AC current may be drawn. A 120V J1772 cord will almost
certainly tell the vehicle not to draw more than 12A, so that it is safe to use
on any 15A or 20A 120V outlet. I believe that some aftermarket cords may be
available with a 16A pilot signal or the ability for the user to configure the
cord for either 12A or 16A, however, I an unaware of an OEM cord with this
capability.
> One can buy a J1772 to NEMA
> adapter; however, they are not safe to use. All these adapters "fake out"
> the EVSE and the user must be aware of the limitations. It would not
> surprise me to see these adapters outlawed.
I'm not sure what sort of adapter you are thinking of. As far as I know, every
OEM that offers an EV with a J1772 charge inlet wither includes or offers a
120V J1772 "opportunity charge" cord. This cord *is* a proper J1772 EVSE and
not only provides an appropriate pilot signal to the vehicle, but also does not
energise the charging plug until it senses that it is mated with a J1772
receptacle.
I can't see how one of these NEMA to J1772 opportunity charge cords can
possibly be *less* safe than an ordinary NEMA extension cord between the outlet
and a charger on the vehicle.
Cheers,
Roger.
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Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production
ROBERT via EV wrote: > (1) How does a vehicle with a J1772 connector know the rating of the NEMA > outlet? The portable J1772 EVSE charging cord/adapter tells the vehicle via the pilot signal how much AC current may be drawn. A 120V J1772 cord will almost certainly tell the vehicle not to draw more than 12A, so that it is safe to use on any 15A or 20A 120V outlet. I believe that some aftermarket cords may be available with a 16A pilot signal or the ability for the user to configure the cord for either 12A or 16A, however, I an unaware of an OEM cord with this capability. > One can buy a J1772 to NEMA > adapter; however, they are not safe to use. All these adapters "fake out" > the EVSE and the user must be aware of the limitations. It would not > surprise me to see these adapters outlawed. I'm not sure what sort of adapter you are thinking of. As far as I know, every OEM that offers an EV with a J1772 charge inlet wither includes or offers a 120V J1772 "opportunity charge" cord. This cord *is* a proper J1772 EVSE and not only provides an appropriate pilot signal to the vehicle, but also does not energise the charging plug until it senses that it is mated with a J1772 receptacle. I can't see how one of these NEMA to J1772 opportunity charge cords can possibly be *less* safe than an ordinary NEMA extension cord between the outlet and a charger on the vehicle. Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production
Cor van de Water, did you read my e-mails? My argument was against a large system of EVSEs not a large system of NEMA receptacles. In addition, I stated in my e-mail that the solution was to charge at home using a NEMA outlet and to use an induction system for a large scale system. A large size NEMA system will work. In very cold areas, people install block heaters in their vehicle engines. Parking garages and shopping malls in these areas have outlets at each parking space. The system will work; however, a developer will not install a system unless it is necessary, required by local codes, the people expect the system, or he can make money on the system. All this being said, I do see issues with a NEMA type system for vehicle charging. The issues with a NEMA type system are: (1) How does a vehicle with a J1772 connector know the rating of the NEMA outlet? (2) How does a company make money from a NEMA system? They can charge a fixed rate every time a person enters the area. What if I have an ICE vehicle? They cannot charge by usage. (3) Who installs all the NEMA outlets? The garage owner? (4) A NEMA receptacle is low cost; however, the conduit, cabling, distribution panels, transformers, and labor is not low cost. The NEC requires that a 20A receptacle used for a dedicated service be on a single breaker and the loading sized for 20A. Think about the implications of this requirements. For (100) 20A, 120 VAC receptacles, the main incoming must be 100 X (20A X 120 VAC) = 240KVA. A typical commercial building has a incoming feed of 480VAC. At 240KVA, the main breaker is 240KVA/480VAC = 500A. This is huge. I have worked on industrial plants with this size of incoming feeder. This system will be expensive. I worked on a plant in CA. We wants to increase the main by 300A @ 480. The utility company said the extra load was not available in that area. As shown in my previous e-mail, my induction system would be expensive; however, not as expensive as a NEMA system. Since I live in southern AZ, I think the best system would be covered parking with solar panels. I think, I could make a strong cost argument for this type system. In my opinion, all the above is pie in the sky wishing. The car manufacturers are commented to the J1772 standard and only the J1772. It would be nice if the car manufacturers would add a 20A NEMA receptacle to EVs; however, I do not think they will. One can buy a J1772 to NEMA adapter; however, they are not safe to use. All these adapters "fake out" the EVSE and the user must be aware of the limitations. It would not surprise me to see these adapters outlawed. In conclusion, I ask that you go back and read my last series of e-mails to Lee Hart. These e-mail fully explained my points. From: EV on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV Sent: Monday, November 7, 2016 5:28 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production Hi Robert, I am afraid that some of your assumptions are wrong, so the wrong conclusion follows. You claim that the installation is expensive because of the large size of the installation, but you forget that outdoor NEMA 5-20 outlets are standard and cheap, so while the (underground) wiring to the outlets can be costly, as long as it is done in standard conduit and outlets are aggregated in a smart way to a limited number of conduits, the total installation is neither complicated nor very expensive, especially when done during construction of the parking. Look at how public parking has street lights put in, distributed throughout the lot? Adding vehicle charging will certainly increases the amount of wiring but if done in a smart way, not much more digging or conduit required. Just fatter cables to supply more power and more branching out at the end. You claim that there is a maintenance issue because of a large number of EVSE, I thought the idea was that there are no EVSE needed, just NEMA outlets. Those do not fail very often and don't need maintenance. Puddles a problem? How about GFCI outlets that are already required in new buildings? And how do you think that the northern states that have an outlet in every parking spot for block heaters have been managing this "danger"? For many years I plugged into such an outlet, whether it was raining or the sun was shining and I never wondered if it would be a problem. I knew the GFCI would detect any problem. System security: What did you have in mind? Someone hacking the 110V outlet? If stealing power is an issue then the building manager can put the parking lot outlets on a timer to turn off after hours. You say that the system will have a low utilization rate because the EV needs to be parked (charging) for a long time. This indicates a high utilization rate. The cost of the system is not high if you compare to the cost
Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production
Hi Robert, I am afraid that some of your assumptions are wrong, so the wrong conclusion follows. You claim that the installation is expensive because of the large size of the installation, but you forget that outdoor NEMA 5-20 outlets are standard and cheap, so while the (underground) wiring to the outlets can be costly, as long as it is done in standard conduit and outlets are aggregated in a smart way to a limited number of conduits, the total installation is neither complicated nor very expensive, especially when done during construction of the parking. Look at how public parking has street lights put in, distributed throughout the lot? Adding vehicle charging will certainly increases the amount of wiring but if done in a smart way, not much more digging or conduit required. Just fatter cables to supply more power and more branching out at the end. You claim that there is a maintenance issue because of a large number of EVSE, I thought the idea was that there are no EVSE needed, just NEMA outlets. Those do not fail very often and don't need maintenance. Puddles a problem? How about GFCI outlets that are already required in new buildings? And how do you think that the northern states that have an outlet in every parking spot for block heaters have been managing this "danger"? For many years I plugged into such an outlet, whether it was raining or the sun was shining and I never wondered if it would be a problem. I knew the GFCI would detect any problem. System security: What did you have in mind? Someone hacking the 110V outlet? If stealing power is an issue then the building manager can put the parking lot outlets on a timer to turn off after hours. You say that the system will have a low utilization rate because the EV needs to be parked (charging) for a long time. This indicates a high utilization rate. The cost of the system is not high if you compare to the cost to the company of the employee salaries. Playing musical chairs with EVs in the parking lot, causing each employee to lose up to half hour of work time might cost the company in the order of $100 per occurrence, so $20,000 per employee per year. The cost of installing a hundred NEMA outlets for 200 employees pales in comparison and the convenience of not needing to search for a charger, but simply drop the car in a slot and plug in for the day are a much better proposition than the hassle of waiting or running out to move the car in time or even a valet service to get all participating EVs charged. There probably are scenarios possible where a limited number of high priced EVSE make sense and I fully support to have a few high power EVSE available for the "Oh crap" moments where you need to leave ASAP but have not enough range, so you gladly pay a couple bucks to fill up in minutes instead of hours. But the regular commute traffic can perfectly be done with 110 outlets, as I know from experience. Hope this clarifies the discussion. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info http://www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2016 7:15 PM To: Lee Hart; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production Lee, I was making the following points in my e-mail concerning the installation of a large number of EVSEs in a parking area: (1) The installation will be very expensive because of the size of the required electrical distribution system (2) Maintenance will be expensive because of the large number of EVSEs and equipment failure rates (3) The system will have a low utilization rate because vehicle will be parked for an extended periods (4) System security is low because of scammers and no local oversight (5) Not a safe system because of a possible pool of water or vandalism. (6) The cost of an EVSE is small relative to the cost of the system; therefore, a lower cost intelligent outlet will have a minor impact on the total system cost. Due to the above points, the installation of a large number of EVSEs in a parking area (1) is not an efficient use of equipment, (2) has low system security, (3) unsafe system and (4) is not a good use of capital. My suggestion to solve the problem was for everyone to charge at home with a NEMA type outlet or use an induction type system in a parking area. An induction type system reduces the installation cost because of a reduction in the size of the
