Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me... not)

[Chris Meier via EV]

How are the FFE battery packs holding up?

On March 10, 2015 11:44:01 AM CDT, Bill Woodcock via EV  
wrote:
>> I've had my imiev only a couple of months, but I'm very pleased with
>it.  Other than the 60 miles of range.  Cost new was about $26k,
>including tax, title, and license.  The state incentive is $2.5k and
>the income tax credit is $7.5k.  So, I expect the total cost to be
>about $16k.
>
>The Ford Focus currently has an $8K manufacturer incentive, which
>brings it to $15K after state and federal credits, also.  It’s a very
>nice car.
>
>-Bill
>
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me... not)

[Bill Woodcock via EV]

> I've had my imiev only a couple of months, but I'm very pleased with it.  
> Other than the 60 miles of range.  Cost new was about $26k, including tax, 
> title, and license.  The state incentive is $2.5k and the income tax credit 
> is $7.5k.  So, I expect the total cost to be about $16k.

The Ford Focus currently has an $8K manufacturer incentive, which brings it to 
$15K after state and federal credits, also.  It’s a very nice car.

-Bill




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Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me... not)

[Willie2 via EV]

On 03/10/2015 09:11 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

And the other error in my thinking is that MFR's simply are not going to
make a NO-FRILLS 40 mile EV this early in the game when even a zero mile
EV will still be priced at more than $15k w/o battery just for expected
amenities and since I would never buy a new car anyway, I can see why
there is no market for a pure EV in that range for several more years.
Though eventually, there will be a HUGE range and mix of EV's.  The
shortest is the commuter that uses her EV to drive from home to the
park-&-ride.  10mi round trip per day.   - Bob

I've had my imiev only a couple of months, but I'm very pleased with 
it.  Other than the 60 miles of range.  Cost new was about $26k, 
including tax, title, and license.  The state incentive is $2.5k and the 
income tax credit is $7.5k.  So, I expect the total cost to be about $16k.


I'm about 6'4" and the interior is comfortable.  It is fast enough for 
me.  Especially with the rear seats folded, it has very generous cargo 
space.

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Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me... not)

[Jamie K via EV]

On 3/10/15 9:02 AM, Ben Goren via EV wrote:
> Actually...I rather suspect that, by the time we get to a true
> no-frills EV from major manufacturers -- your archetypal base-model
> $15k econobox -- they'll come with at least 100 mile ranges, and the

We're under that 15k price now, for new EVs. Used LEAFs with more frills 
are also available now for under 15K.


The Mitsubishi iMiev is 23000, minus 7500 federal tax refund for anyone
who qualifies makes it 15,500, minus state incentives: In California,
Colorado and Georgia it could be well under $15k this year.

If two seats would suffice: The electric Smart car is a few thousand 
more, but it can be purchased for under 15K with incentives in some 
states (even less w/battery lease option, depending on how you account 
for that cost).


Range wise, the next step for mid-priced EVs is a 200-ish range. Those 
BEV models are a few years out, so far including LEAF 2, Bolt, Model 3 
and maybe a few others, none of which are likely to be under 15K.


That would leave room for Mitsubishi and Smart to up their range and 
still hit a lower price point. Or for Nissan to differentiate the LEAF 
by range levels and have a lower priced model. Or for another player to 
step in. So we'll see...


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 3/10/15 9:02 AM, Ben Goren via EV wrote:

On Mar 10, 2015, at 7:11 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV
 wrote:


And the other error in my thinking is that MFR's simply are not
going to make a NO-FRILLS 40 mile EV this early in the game


Actually...I rather suspect that, by the time we get to a true
no-frills EV from major manufacturers -- your archetypal base-model
$15k econobox -- they'll come with at least 100 mile ranges, and the
manufacturers simply won't offer them until they can sell them at a
profit at that price point. And, over time, those ranges will rise.
Eventually, you won't be able to buy an EV from a major manufacturer
with less than a couple hundred miles of range guaranteed for the
term of the warrantee -- just as you can't buy a gas-powered vehicle
with a tank smaller than about eight gallons.

And those people with 40 MPG city cars with eight-gallon tanks...when
was the last time they used more than five gallons before filling up?
So isn't that "extra" three gallons of tank just a waste? Why not
just give the cars two gallon tanks, since 80 miles is more than you
need in a day for a commuter and you can top it off in just a minute
at gas stations anywhere for the price of a pseudo-coffee beverage
from Starbucks?

Yes, home charging changes the equation with EVs...but only
marginally. For virtually all car owners today, the downsides of a
range just barely more than their typical daily usage far outweigh
any possible convenience home charging could ever give.

The _real_ winner is long-range EVs that you normally charge at home
but can also get a quick charge from a rest stop. Day-to-day, you
drive for free without ever having to go to a gas station and always
start with a full tank...but you can also drive to grandma's on the
weekends just as you would in a gas-powered vehicle today. That's
what Tesla is working towards, and they're exactly right to do so.
Now, if only their charging network wasn't proprietary and if they
dropped all the control freak stuff

Cheers,

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Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me... not)

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Mar 10, 2015, at 7:11 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:

> And the other error in my thinking is that MFR's simply are not going to
> make a NO-FRILLS 40 mile EV this early in the game

Actually...I rather suspect that, by the time we get to a true no-frills EV 
from major manufacturers -- your archetypal base-model $15k econobox -- they'll 
come with at least 100 mile ranges, and the manufacturers simply won't offer 
them until they can sell them at a profit at that price point. And, over time, 
those ranges will rise. Eventually, you won't be able to buy an EV from a major 
manufacturer with less than a couple hundred miles of range guaranteed for the 
term of the warrantee -- just as you can't buy a gas-powered vehicle with a 
tank smaller than about eight gallons.

And those people with 40 MPG city cars with eight-gallon tanks...when was the 
last time they used more than five gallons before filling up? So isn't that 
"extra" three gallons of tank just a waste? Why not just give the cars two 
gallon tanks, since 80 miles is more than you need in a day for a commuter and 
you can top it off in just a minute at gas stations anywhere for the price of a 
pseudo-coffee beverage from Starbucks?

Yes, home charging changes the equation with EVs...but only marginally. For 
virtually all car owners today, the downsides of a range just barely more than 
their typical daily usage far outweigh any possible convenience home charging 
could ever give.

The _real_ winner is long-range EVs that you normally charge at home but can 
also get a quick charge from a rest stop. Day-to-day, you drive for free 
without ever having to go to a gas station and always start with a full 
tank...but you can also drive to grandma's on the weekends just as you would in 
a gas-powered vehicle today. That's what Tesla is working towards, and they're 
exactly right to do so. Now, if only their charging network wasn't proprietary 
and if they dropped all the control freak stuff

Cheers,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me... not)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

OK, Im an outlier... and wrong about this ...

Generally,  I shot from the hip with my original email.  There was a lot
of my historical perspective in my DIY EV project cars where 40 miles
would be good enuf.  But actually, as used/salvage EV's are now
approaching the $10k class, and most have 80+ mile ranges, you are all
right.  I'd be very happy with an 80 mile pack now delivering 60... and
using only 30 most days...

And the other error in my thinking is that MFR's simply are not going to
make a NO-FRILLS 40 mile EV this early in the game when even a zero mile
EV will still be priced at more than $15k w/o battery just for expected
amenities and since I would never buy a new car anyway, I can see why
there is no market for a pure EV in that range for several more years.
Though eventually, there will be a HUGE range and mix of EV's.  The
shortest is the commuter that uses her EV to drive from home to the
park-&-ride.  10mi round trip per day.   - Bob

> Could any of the current shorter range BEV options work for you, Bob?

>> You will need the few miles of extra range... [cold,age,detours...]

original email --
>>> My answer:   I'm waiting for a 40 mile BEV.  The Prius 12mi is too
short
>>> and both it and the VOLT haul along an entirely not needed ICE
>>> (adding $10k to the price) (I have 2 other salvage Prius for all the
>>> distance I need).  And my daily commute is 30 mi total.  40 miles for
me.
>>>
>>> Unwilling to pay the extra $6k for the final 40 miles of the current
>>> crop of 80 mile BEV's that I'd never use.
>>> Bob
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