Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota dealers say there is no sale$ demand.us for EVs

2018-12-14 Thread Peter Eckhoff via EV 
Hello Bruce,

Hope your operation goes well.  My prayers are with you.

From your information and from Tom Keenan:

Toyota is into the EV business but the dealers as Tom Keenan points out may
not be enthusiastic about selling EVs:

"If this is based on dealership interviews/meetings, then then perhaps the
dealership answer was really (...since we make less money on servicing
electrics) we don’t want to sell them. Thus, we pretend there is no demand.
"

These are a couple of links based on Bruce's email and an internet search:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-toyota-china-gac-exclusive/exclusive-toyota-plans-to-roll-into-chinas-ev-market-in-gac-motor-vehicle-idUSKCN1IJ07K
Exclusive: Toyota plans to roll into China's EV market in GAC Motor vehicle
May 17, 2018 - BEIJING (Reuters) - Toyota plans to start selling the GAC
Toyota ix4 by the end of the year. The car is a battery-powered compact SUV
based on GAC’s Trumpchi GS4, and has been in development for two years ...
***
So Toyota is getting into the EV business but in China in a Joint Venture
way:

https://wattev2buy.com/electric-vehicles/guangzhou-automobile-group-electric-vehicles/gac-gs4-ev/
Two other GAC JV models are based on the GAC Trumpchi GS4 platform, the *GAC
Mitsubishi Qizhi PHEV
*,
and the *Toyota GAC iX4 BEV
*
.

https://wattev2buy.com/electric-vehicles/guangzhou-toyota-ev-models-gac-toyota-electric-car-strategy/gac-toyota-ix4-ev-suv-specs-range-battery-price-release-date/



On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 4:25 AM brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
>
> https://evbite.com/there-might-not-be-toyota-all-electric-car-and-heres-why/
> There Might Not Be Another Toyota All-Electric Car, and Here’s Why
> December 8, 2018  David Mowatt
>
> [images
> https://i2.wp.com/evbite.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/RAV4-EV.jpg
> ]
>
> While the Japanese automaker has made considerable strides in the electric
> plug-in and hybrid market thanks to their various Prius model variants, it
> has been quite some time since we’ve seen a purely electric vehicle from
> Toyota. According to Jack Hollis, the general manager of Toyota Motor North
> America, it is unlikely we’ll be see a Toyota all-electric car anytime
> soon.
>
> With other well-known automakers pushing desperately towards
> electrification, it always appeared rather odd that Toyota never seemed to
> step outside of the plug-in and hybrid world in order to construct a
> fully-electric car to compete with the ever changing marketplace.
>
> According to Jack Hollis, Toyota dealers don’t believe they can sell enough
> fully-electric vehicles to warrant a business case, plain and simple.
>
> During a roundtable interview at the recent Los Angeles Auto Show, Hollis
> shared:
>
> “If our dealers, and we just met with our national dealer council two
> weeks ago, if our dealers felt like there was a significant demand (for
> EVs)
> we would have already had fully electric and electric vehicles already on
> the road today.
>
> “Having that technology, which you’ll remember if you go back the
> electric RAV4 was one of the first electric offerings in the marketplace in
> the US, period. So the technology there and what we can offer is available,
> but like any good demand and supply economy, if the demand is low, do you
> really want to supply?”
>
> Longtime fans of the Japanese automaker may remember the RAV4 EV, the first
> Toyota all-electric car. Initially introduced in 1997, the fully-electric
> crossover was discontinued in 2003 before Toyota later reintroduced a
> second
> model in 2012. The second generation RAV4 EV, unfortunately, was
> discontinued after just a few years on the market. In spite of the RAV4
> EV’s
> relatively short lifespan, its very existence shows that Toyota do know how
> to make fully-electric vehicles—they just don’t believe they can make money
> doing so at the moment.
>
> Hollis added:
>
> “But I will say at the exact same time, there is daily investment ...
> of
> our electrification strategy, so I do not believe that our dealers, and
> they
> would agree, that we should not go down just with an electric offering but
> we should with an electrification offering where we have a wider range of
> products, a wide range of energy sources and uses available. And that’s
> really what were pursuing, a wider range. And then as we go over time well
> be able to see where the marketplace moves. But at this point, there is no
> reason to race that to market.”
>
> Toyota clearly plans to take their time as they ease into the electric
> vehicle marketplace, which we can’t fault them for. Unlike automakers like
> Volkswagen who claim to be able to pump out over 50 million electric
> vehicles, it’s interesting to see Toyota opt for

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota dealers say there is no sale$ demand.us for EVs

2018-12-13 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV 
At my last count, I came up with 250 EV models are promised over then next
7 years by 2025.
That is a big number.  And last time I counted al lmodels, I think I only
came up with about 450 total car models on sale in the USA.  So it is over
half...

Bob, WB4APR

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Peter Eckhoff via EV
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2018 3:24 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Peter Eckhoff 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota dealers say there is no sale$ demand.us
for EVs

I don't get it either.  According to Exxon-Mobil, we have until around
2040, maybe a bit longer, until the world wide liquid supply of crude oil
peaks.  All Toyota has to do is to view the worldwide sales of EVs on
InsideEVs Sales charts to realize there is a market for EVs.  Not sure
what their rationale is for their comment.  Prime sales are similar to
Volt sales in volume and GM just said they are cancelling Volt production
but keeping the Bolt.

Tesla is going great guns and are looking to produce an electric pickup
truck.  A number of electric pickups are in pre-production such as from
Bollinger and Rivian.

Almost all of the auto manufacturers are saying they are switching to
producing nothing but electrics during the next two decades. There is
always the good chance that EV sales continue to climb and the price of
gasoline drops to $0.50 a gallon.  Then Toyota ICE sales might pick up and
they cancel production of the Prius and their other hybrids???



On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 2:02 PM EVDL Administrator via EV

wrote:

> [Shrug] Their loss.
>
> In 1973, when the Mideast oil cartel shut the petroleum spigot down to
> a trickle, owners of 13mpg US-made land yachts were putting their
> names on waiting lists to buy 30mpg small cars.
>
> But it wasn't GM and Ford dealers that were collecting their
> "additional dealer markup," hundreds of dollars over sticker price.
> They didn't have small, fuel-efficient cars that anybody wanted to
> buy.  Chevy Vegas?  Ford Pintos?  No thanks.
>
> It was Japanese automakers' dealers who won that round.  Toyota
> Corollas, Datsun B210s, and Honda Civics got prepped with such
> high-profit extras as
> $250 radios, $70 floor mats, and $90 mud flaps, and then they flew out
> the shop doors.  They never even saw the lot.
>
> Next time gasoline gets scarce, depending on how sensible GM is, it
> might be GM dealers poaching EV customers from Toyota.  That would be
> ironic.
>
> However, I think it's more likely that the next beneficiary of a US
> (or
> worldwide) fuel crunch will be BYD, Geely, and other Chinese automakers.
> I
> expect that they'll be the ones unloading cargo ships full of EVs on
> these shores.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
> Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the
> webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota dealers say there is no sale$ demand.us for EVs

2018-12-13 Thread Peter Eckhoff via EV 
I don't get it either.  According to Exxon-Mobil, we have until around
2040, maybe a bit longer, until the world wide liquid supply of crude oil
peaks.  All Toyota has to do is to view the worldwide sales of EVs on
InsideEVs Sales charts to realize there is a market for EVs.  Not sure what
their rationale is for their comment.  Prime sales are similar to Volt
sales in volume and GM just said they are cancelling Volt production but
keeping the Bolt.

Tesla is going great guns and are looking to produce an electric pickup
truck.  A number of electric pickups are in pre-production such as from
Bollinger and Rivian.

Almost all of the auto manufacturers are saying they are switching to
producing nothing but electrics during the next two decades. There is
always the good chance that EV sales continue to climb and the price of
gasoline drops to $0.50 a gallon.  Then Toyota ICE sales might pick up and
they cancel production of the Prius and their other hybrids???



On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 2:02 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> [Shrug] Their loss.
>
> In 1973, when the Mideast oil cartel shut the petroleum spigot down to a
> trickle, owners of 13mpg US-made land yachts were putting their names on
> waiting lists to buy 30mpg small cars.
>
> But it wasn't GM and Ford dealers that were collecting their "additional
> dealer markup," hundreds of dollars over sticker price.  They didn't have
> small, fuel-efficient cars that anybody wanted to buy.  Chevy Vegas?  Ford
> Pintos?  No thanks.
>
> It was Japanese automakers' dealers who won that round.  Toyota Corollas,
> Datsun B210s, and Honda Civics got prepped with such high-profit extras as
> $250 radios, $70 floor mats, and $90 mud flaps, and then they flew out the
> shop doors.  They never even saw the lot.
>
> Next time gasoline gets scarce, depending on how sensible GM is, it might
> be
> GM dealers poaching EV customers from Toyota.  That would be ironic.
>
> However, I think it's more likely that the next beneficiary of a US (or
> worldwide) fuel crunch will be BYD, Geely, and other Chinese automakers.
> I
> expect that they'll be the ones unloading cargo ships full of EVs on these
> shores.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota dealers say there is no sale$ demand.us for EVs

2018-12-13 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV 
[Shrug] Their loss.

In 1973, when the Mideast oil cartel shut the petroleum spigot down to a 
trickle, owners of 13mpg US-made land yachts were putting their names on 
waiting lists to buy 30mpg small cars.  

But it wasn't GM and Ford dealers that were collecting their "additional 
dealer markup," hundreds of dollars over sticker price.  They didn't have 
small, fuel-efficient cars that anybody wanted to buy.  Chevy Vegas?  Ford 
Pintos?  No thanks.

It was Japanese automakers' dealers who won that round.  Toyota Corollas, 
Datsun B210s, and Honda Civics got prepped with such high-profit extras as 
$250 radios, $70 floor mats, and $90 mud flaps, and then they flew out the 
shop doors.  They never even saw the lot.

Next time gasoline gets scarce, depending on how sensible GM is, it might be 
GM dealers poaching EV customers from Toyota.  That would be ironic.

However, I think it's more likely that the next beneficiary of a US (or 
worldwide) fuel crunch will be BYD, Geely, and other Chinese automakers.  I 
expect that they'll be the ones unloading cargo ships full of EVs on these 
shores.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


___
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Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota dealers say there is no sale$ demand.us for EVs

2018-12-13 Thread Paul Compton via EV 
Having gone from "You don't have to plug it in" to "Self charging" for
their advertising in the UK, I have little time for Toyota.
On Thu, 13 Dec 2018 at 16:45, Tom Keenan via EV  wrote:
>
> If this is based on dealership interviews/meetings, then then perhaps the 
> dealership answer was really (...since we make less money on servicing 
> electrics) we don’t want to sell them. Thus, we pretend there is no demand.
>
> Tom Keenan
>
> > On Dec 13, 2018, at 12:46 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > https://evbite.com/there-might-not-be-toyota-all-electric-car-and-heres-why/
> > There Might Not Be Another Toyota All-Electric Car, and Here’s Why
> > December 8, 2018  David Mowatt
> >
> > [images
> > https://i2.wp.com/evbite.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/RAV4-EV.jpg
> > ]
> >
> > While the Japanese automaker has made considerable strides in the electric
> > plug-in and hybrid market thanks to their various Prius model variants, it
> > has been quite some time since we’ve seen a purely electric vehicle from
> > Toyota. According to Jack Hollis, the general manager of Toyota Motor North
> > America, it is unlikely we’ll be see a Toyota all-electric car anytime soon.
> >
> > With other well-known automakers pushing desperately towards
> > electrification, it always appeared rather odd that Toyota never seemed to
> > step outside of the plug-in and hybrid world in order to construct a
> > fully-electric car to compete with the ever changing marketplace.
> >
> > According to Jack Hollis, Toyota dealers don’t believe they can sell enough
> > fully-electric vehicles to warrant a business case, plain and simple.
> >
> > During a roundtable interview at the recent Los Angeles Auto Show, Hollis
> > shared:
> >
> >“If our dealers, and we just met with our national dealer council two
> > weeks ago, if our dealers felt like there was a significant demand (for EVs)
> > we would have already had fully electric and electric vehicles already on
> > the road today.
> >
> >“Having that technology, which you’ll remember if you go back the
> > electric RAV4 was one of the first electric offerings in the marketplace in
> > the US, period. So the technology there and what we can offer is available,
> > but like any good demand and supply economy, if the demand is low, do you
> > really want to supply?”
> >
> > Longtime fans of the Japanese automaker may remember the RAV4 EV, the first
> > Toyota all-electric car. Initially introduced in 1997, the fully-electric
> > crossover was discontinued in 2003 before Toyota later reintroduced a second
> > model in 2012. The second generation RAV4 EV, unfortunately, was
> > discontinued after just a few years on the market. In spite of the RAV4 EV’s
> > relatively short lifespan, its very existence shows that Toyota do know how
> > to make fully-electric vehicles—they just don’t believe they can make money
> > doing so at the moment.
> >
> > Hollis added:
> >
> >“But I will say at the exact same time, there is daily investment ... of
> > our electrification strategy, so I do not believe that our dealers, and they
> > would agree, that we should not go down just with an electric offering but
> > we should with an electrification offering where we have a wider range of
> > products, a wide range of energy sources and uses available. And that’s
> > really what were pursuing, a wider range. And then as we go over time well
> > be able to see where the marketplace moves. But at this point, there is no
> > reason to race that to market.”
> >
> > Toyota clearly plans to take their time as they ease into the electric
> > vehicle marketplace, which we can’t fault them for. Unlike automakers like
> > Volkswagen who claim to be able to pump out over 50 million electric
> > vehicles, it’s interesting to see Toyota opt for a slower, more relaxed pace
> > in regards to their electrification goals. Only time will tell when we’ll
> > see another Toyota all-electric car, but we hope it will be well worth the
> > wait.
> > [© evbite.com]
> >
> >
> > https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2018/12/toyota-if-our-dealers-thought-they-could-sell-evs-we-d-already-have-one.html
> > Toyota: We Don't Have a Business Case to Make EVs » AutoGuide ...
> > Dec 06, 2018 - Toyota sells a ton of electrified vehicles between its
> > various Prius model ... “If our dealers, and we just met with our national
> > dealer council two ... was a significant demand (for EVs) we would have
> > already had fully ... And make no mistake about it, Toyota will offer an EV
> > one day – it's just ...
> > https://www.autoguide.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Toyota-RAV-4-EV.jpg
> >
> >
> > [dated]
> > Toyota expanding NEV manufacturing in China - electrive.com
> > https://www.electrive.com/2018/08/17/toyota-expanding-ev-manufacturing-in-china/
> > Aug 17, 2018 - Specifically, Toyota plans to increase production capacities
> > for electric vehicles in their factories in Tianjin and Guangzhou. The first
> > location ...
> >

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota dealers say there is no sale$ demand.us for EVs

2018-12-13 Thread Tom Keenan via EV 
If this is based on dealership interviews/meetings, then then perhaps the 
dealership answer was really (...since we make less money on servicing 
electrics) we don’t want to sell them. Thus, we pretend there is no demand. 

Tom Keenan

> On Dec 13, 2018, at 12:46 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> https://evbite.com/there-might-not-be-toyota-all-electric-car-and-heres-why/
> There Might Not Be Another Toyota All-Electric Car, and Here’s Why
> December 8, 2018  David Mowatt
> 
> [images  
> https://i2.wp.com/evbite.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/RAV4-EV.jpg
> ]
> 
> While the Japanese automaker has made considerable strides in the electric
> plug-in and hybrid market thanks to their various Prius model variants, it
> has been quite some time since we’ve seen a purely electric vehicle from
> Toyota. According to Jack Hollis, the general manager of Toyota Motor North
> America, it is unlikely we’ll be see a Toyota all-electric car anytime soon.
> 
> With other well-known automakers pushing desperately towards
> electrification, it always appeared rather odd that Toyota never seemed to
> step outside of the plug-in and hybrid world in order to construct a
> fully-electric car to compete with the ever changing marketplace.
> 
> According to Jack Hollis, Toyota dealers don’t believe they can sell enough
> fully-electric vehicles to warrant a business case, plain and simple.
> 
> During a roundtable interview at the recent Los Angeles Auto Show, Hollis
> shared:
> 
>“If our dealers, and we just met with our national dealer council two
> weeks ago, if our dealers felt like there was a significant demand (for EVs)
> we would have already had fully electric and electric vehicles already on
> the road today.
> 
>“Having that technology, which you’ll remember if you go back the
> electric RAV4 was one of the first electric offerings in the marketplace in
> the US, period. So the technology there and what we can offer is available,
> but like any good demand and supply economy, if the demand is low, do you
> really want to supply?”
> 
> Longtime fans of the Japanese automaker may remember the RAV4 EV, the first
> Toyota all-electric car. Initially introduced in 1997, the fully-electric
> crossover was discontinued in 2003 before Toyota later reintroduced a second
> model in 2012. The second generation RAV4 EV, unfortunately, was
> discontinued after just a few years on the market. In spite of the RAV4 EV’s
> relatively short lifespan, its very existence shows that Toyota do know how
> to make fully-electric vehicles—they just don’t believe they can make money
> doing so at the moment.
> 
> Hollis added:
> 
>“But I will say at the exact same time, there is daily investment ... of
> our electrification strategy, so I do not believe that our dealers, and they
> would agree, that we should not go down just with an electric offering but
> we should with an electrification offering where we have a wider range of
> products, a wide range of energy sources and uses available. And that’s
> really what were pursuing, a wider range. And then as we go over time well
> be able to see where the marketplace moves. But at this point, there is no
> reason to race that to market.”
> 
> Toyota clearly plans to take their time as they ease into the electric
> vehicle marketplace, which we can’t fault them for. Unlike automakers like
> Volkswagen who claim to be able to pump out over 50 million electric
> vehicles, it’s interesting to see Toyota opt for a slower, more relaxed pace
> in regards to their electrification goals. Only time will tell when we’ll
> see another Toyota all-electric car, but we hope it will be well worth the
> wait.
> [© evbite.com]
> 
> 
> https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2018/12/toyota-if-our-dealers-thought-they-could-sell-evs-we-d-already-have-one.html
> Toyota: We Don't Have a Business Case to Make EVs » AutoGuide ...
> Dec 06, 2018 - Toyota sells a ton of electrified vehicles between its
> various Prius model ... “If our dealers, and we just met with our national
> dealer council two ... was a significant demand (for EVs) we would have
> already had fully ... And make no mistake about it, Toyota will offer an EV
> one day – it's just ... 
> https://www.autoguide.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Toyota-RAV-4-EV.jpg
> 
> 
> [dated]
> Toyota expanding NEV manufacturing in China - electrive.com
> https://www.electrive.com/2018/08/17/toyota-expanding-ev-manufacturing-in-china/
> Aug 17, 2018 - Specifically, Toyota plans to increase production capacities
> for electric vehicles in their factories in Tianjin and Guangzhou. The first
> location ...
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-toyota-china-gac-exclusive/exclusive-toyota-plans-to-roll-into-chinas-ev-market-in-gac-motor-vehicle-idUSKCN1IJ07K
> Exclusive: Toyota plans to roll into China's EV market in GAC Motor vehicle
> May 17, 2018 - BEIJING (Reuters) - Toyota plans to start selling the GAC
> Toyota ix4 by the end of the year. The