Re: [EVDL] J1772 might not go to a low level but just trip breaker.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

Yes you are right.  Dangerous.  I got away with it and charged a 30kw Leaf on a 
20 amp circuit. By noon and rising temperatures(40 degrees)  it was tapering.  
126 miles, plenty of range to get back to San Francisco.  Wiring upgrade to 
come.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] J1772 might not go to a low level but just trip breaker.

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I am sure Lawrence is talking about his 2016 Leaf with 30kWh (not kW)
pack.
Since it is a newer Leaf, it will charge at 6.6kW instead of the 3.3
that the 2011/2012 Leaf takes (which is specifically aimed at the
European situation where most plugs and circuits are rated and fused to
230V 16A which means a max 3.7kW so a 3.3kW charger maxes out a standard
wall plug in Europe).
6.6kW at 240V is 27.5 Amps so it is even too much for a 30A service as
continuous load although the standard 24kWh Leaf pack usually does not
take more than 18kWh to fully recharge, so less than 3 hours which means
that you could sneak by the 80% derating for continuous load by never
charging long enough to get hit by that limit and you can cosy up to the
100% rating for the circuit.
Note that an EVSE destined for a 30A service will limit the current at
24A by modulating the Pilot signal and thus forcing the EV to never draw
more than 24A x 240V = 5760W.
Only a 40A (or 50A) circuit will allow an EVSE to supply the full power
that a newer Leaf can draw by modulating the Pilot signal to allow
drawing 32 (or 40) Amps.

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
Administrator via EV
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2016 1:45 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] J1772 might not go to a low level but just trip
breaker.

On 25 Dec 2016 at 19:42, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> I have been charging the 30kw Leaf for hours now and still not tripped
the
> breaker here in Modesto ...

I take it this is 240v, so you have a 125 amp breaker?  That's what you 
would need to deliver 30kw.  I assume that's wired directly to the EVSE.

Heck of a cable!  But what EVSE can supply 125 amps?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] J1772 might not go to a low level but just trip breaker.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 25 Dec 2016 at 13:03, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

> Even though the (cold-exposed) breaker might not trip, please remember the
> purpose of the breaker is to protect the *wire* after the breaker from
> overload.

The breaker is also intended to protect the receptacle and connected 
equipment.  That's why a 30a recept is protected at 30a.  

It'a also the reason that plugs and receptacles are matched by rating:  you 
can't plug a 50a plug into a 30a receptacle and vice versa.  For example, if 
you could connect an appliance or EVSE with a 30a rated plug and cord to a 
receptacle protected by a 50a breaker, the breaker wouldn't protect the 
connected plug and cord properly.  They could get hot and melt, causing a 
fire, even if the wiring to the receptacle remained cool and save and the 
breaker didn't trip.  (I hope that's clear, I don't think I described it all 
that well.)

The code makes an exception to this plug/receptacle matching requirement for 
circuits <= 20a.  I assume this is because of the overall lower power 
available in those circuits, but I don't write the code.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] J1772 might not go to a low level but just trip breaker.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 25 Dec 2016 at 19:42, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> I have been charging the 30kw Leaf for hours now and still not tripped the
> breaker here in Modesto ...

I take it this is 240v, so you have a 125 amp breaker?  That's what you 
would need to deliver 30kw.  I assume that's wired directly to the EVSE. 
Heck of a cable!  But what EVSE can supply 125 amps?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] J1772 might not go to a low level but just trip breaker.

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Lawrence,

Even though the (cold-exposed) breaker might not trip, please remember the 
purpose of the breaker is to protect the *wire* after the breaker from 
overload. If that wire run through insulated walls, it might overheat and get 
damaged, even though the breaker does not trip, so please refrain from 
overloading a breaker just because you can.
I remember reading the report from a fire inspector who was called to a home 
that was remodeled and existing walls were insulated and new sheetrock 
installed and painted in winter and so in order to let it dry properly they 
used two small electric space heaters to warm up the remodeled room, but the 
breaker kept popping so they replaced the 15A breaker with a 20A one without 
checking wire gauge. The next night the room caught on fire because the 
undersized wiring in the newly insulated wall was overheating from the 
combination of the increased breaker rating allowing more current than the wire 
size was rated for and the new insulation preventing the hot spot to get 
adequate air flow cooling...
If you can, please check with LeafSpy how much the car is actually drawing from 
the 240V EVSE and make sure to either modify the EVSE or the service to keep 
the continuous draw at 80% of the rating of the circuit.

Good luck,

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2016 11:43 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org; ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] J1772 might not go to a low level but just trip breaker.

I have been charging the 30kw Leaf for hours now and still not tripped the 
breaker here in Modesto.  However the temperature is near freezing. I'll check 
again soon and report back.  Temperature does make a difference.  A frozen 20 
amp service will suffice for a while for a 30 amp EVSE.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] J1772 might not go to a low level but just trip breaker.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

I have been charging the 30kw Leaf for hours now and still not tripped the 
breaker here in Modesto.  However the temperature is near freezing. I'll check 
again soon and report back.  Temperature does make a difference.  A frozen 20 
amp service will suffice for a while for a 30 amp EVSE.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] J1772 might not go to a low level but just trip breaker.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

That would defeat the inexpensive route I have taken.  The thing to do is 
upgrade the wires, socket & breakers as needed.  Lawrence Rhodes

Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device
On Dec 24, 2016 11:24 PM, David Nelson  wrote:
>
> Lawrence,
>
> I purchased an evseupgrade.com Leaf (Panasonic) portable EVSE that was
> modified to work on 240V. I can program it in 1A increments from 6A to
> 20A. My 2016 Soul EV+ has no problem following the EVSE current
> requests. I agree with John, your EVSE is the problem not the Leaf.
> You could just send your portable EVSE to evseupgrade.exe and have
> them modify it.
>
> On Sat, Dec 24, 2016 at 9:57 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV
>  wrote:
> > Is there any way I can tell the Leaf to only draw 20 amps? The EVSE is 
> > certainly not doing it.  Remember I am using an EVSE designed for the Ford 
> > Th!nk. Avcon standard which is supposed to be the same a J1772.   It has 
> > worked well with both the 3.3kw Leaf and the 6.6kw Leaf.  The problem is in 
> > Modesto we still have the old 220vac 20 amp circuit and we have to charge 
> > there.  We don't have the 3,3 kw Leaf anymore. I was skeptical that the 
> > EVSE can do this and I seem to be proved right even though my new Leaf's 
> > have both the 6.6 and 3.3 charge cycles on the dash. Has anyone ever tried 
> > to plug their EVSE into a 20 amp circuit with a 6.6kw EV?  .   Lawrence 
> > Rhodes
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> >
>
>
>
> -- 
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328
> http://www.levforum.com
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Re: [EVDL] J1772 might not go to a low level but just trip breaker.

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Lawrence,
the basis of the J1772 standard is that the *EVSE* tells the EV how much it is 
allowed to draw.
If you take an EVSE designed for a 40A service, so it knows it can draw 32A 
continuous, it will tell the EV in its pilot signal that the car can draw up to 
32A and depending on the capabilities of the car, it might draw a lower amount 
(as you found out with your 3kW Leaf) or the allowed 32A.
The only way the car will draw less, is when it is told to draw less.
So, you need to modify the Pilot signal of this EVSE or use a different EVSE 
that tells the EV to draw less than 20A.
For example, if you take your Nissan OEM trickle charger and modify it for 240V 
then it will still tell the car to draw max 12A, and since you can supply 240V, 
the car will draw up to 2.9kW by limiting its charger to 12A.
If you use a JuiceBox you can choose the max pilot signal. There are already a 
few JuicePlugs out, this is a short J1772 to J1772 "adapter" that can modify 
the pilot signal to make the car draw less (or nothing) at times that the cost 
of electricity is high and draw max power when there is surplus power. But 
there are plenty 16A or 20A EVSE that are even portable so you can use that in 
addition or as replacement of your Nissan OEM trickle charger. I have made two 
friends happy with the 20A ClipperCreek LCS-25 which needs a 25 or 30A breaker 
and its pilot tells the car to draw 20A, it is very portable and easy to plug 
into a dryer outlet to get 4.8kW into the car. I just added a NEMA 14-30 plug 
to its wire pigtail and they use it as EVSE at home and on the road.
Success!

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2016 9:58 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org; ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] J1772 might not go to a low level but just trip breaker.

Is there any way I can tell the Leaf to only draw 20 amps? The EVSE is 
certainly not doing it.  Remember I am using an EVSE designed for the Ford 
Th!nk. Avcon standard which is supposed to be the same a J1772.   It has worked 
well with both the 3.3kw Leaf and the 6.6kw Leaf.  The problem is in Modesto we 
still have the old 220vac 20 amp circuit and we have to charge there.  We don't 
have the 3,3 kw Leaf anymore. I was skeptical that the EVSE can do this and I 
seem to be proved right even though my new Leaf's have both the 6.6 and 3.3 
charge cycles on the dash. Has anyone ever tried to plug their EVSE into a 20 
amp circuit with a 6.6kw EV?  .   Lawrence Rhodes 
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Re: [EVDL] J1772 might not go to a low level but just trip breaker.

[David Nelson via EV]

Lawrence,

I purchased an evseupgrade.com Leaf (Panasonic) portable EVSE that was
modified to work on 240V. I can program it in 1A increments from 6A to
20A. My 2016 Soul EV+ has no problem following the EVSE current
requests. I agree with John, your EVSE is the problem not the Leaf.
You could just send your portable EVSE to evseupgrade.exe and have
them modify it.

On Sat, Dec 24, 2016 at 9:57 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV
 wrote:
> Is there any way I can tell the Leaf to only draw 20 amps? The EVSE is 
> certainly not doing it.  Remember I am using an EVSE designed for the Ford 
> Th!nk. Avcon standard which is supposed to be the same a J1772.   It has 
> worked well with both the 3.3kw Leaf and the 6.6kw Leaf.  The problem is in 
> Modesto we still have the old 220vac 20 amp circuit and we have to charge 
> there.  We don't have the 3,3 kw Leaf anymore. I was skeptical that the EVSE 
> can do this and I seem to be proved right even though my new Leaf's have both 
> the 6.6 and 3.3 charge cycles on the dash. Has anyone ever tried to plug 
> their EVSE into a 20 amp circuit with a 6.6kw EV?  .   Lawrence Rhodes
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-- 
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://www.levforum.com
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Re: [EVDL] J1772 might not go to a low level but just trip breaker.

[John Lussmyer via EV]

Ahh, you are using a EVSE that is built for a 40A circuit, on a 20A circuit.
It's up to the EVSE to tell the car how much current it may draw.  The EVSE 
assumes it can draw the full 32A it's rated for.
You need a different EVSE, or a different circuit.

On Sat Dec 24 21:57:55 PST 2016 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>Is there any way I can tell the Leaf to only draw 20 amps? The EVSE is 
>certainly not doing it.  Remember I am using an EVSE designed for the Ford 
>Th!nk. Avcon standard which is supposed to be the same a J1772.   It has 
>worked well with both the 3.3kw Leaf and the 6.6kw Leaf.  The problem is in 
>Modesto we still have the old 220vac 20 amp circuit and we have to charge 
>there.  We don't have the 3,3 kw Leaf anymore. I was skeptical that the EVSE 
>can do this and I seem to be proved right even though my new Leaf's have both 
>the 6.6 and 3.3 charge cycles on the dash. Has anyone ever tried to plug their 
>EVSE into a 20 amp circuit with a 6.6kw EV?  .   Lawrence Rhodes


--

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Re: [EVDL] J1772 might not go to a low level but just trip breaker.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

Is there any way I can tell the Leaf to only draw 20 amps? The EVSE is 
certainly not doing it.  Remember I am using an EVSE designed for the Ford 
Th!nk. Avcon standard which is supposed to be the same a J1772.   It has worked 
well with both the 3.3kw Leaf and the 6.6kw Leaf.  The problem is in Modesto we 
still have the old 220vac 20 amp circuit and we have to charge there.  We don't 
have the 3,3 kw Leaf anymore. I was skeptical that the EVSE can do this and I 
seem to be proved right even though my new Leaf's have both the 6.6 and 3.3 
charge cycles on the dash. Has anyone ever tried to plug their EVSE into a 20 
amp circuit with a 6.6kw EV?  .   Lawrence Rhodes 
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Re: [EVDL] J1772 might not go to a low level but just trip breaker.

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Lawrence,
Did you actually verify the duty cycle on the pilot before concluding that it 
is the Leaf's fault? It is possible that the pilot is not correct and allows 
the Leaf to draw too much current, so the EVSE might be at fault, not the Leaf?
If this were a problem, every single person who modifies their Leaf OEM charger 
to be able to plug into 240 instead of 120V would see their cord burn up, since 
that EVSE tells the Leaf to draw exactly 12A which it does (I verified with the 
LeafSpy on 120V)
So I am sceptical of calling this a problem in the Leaf after modding the EVSE, 
my first guess would be a problem in the pilot, but let us know how you 
verified the Pilot signal.

Regards,

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2016 3:25 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org; ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] J1772 might not go to a low level but just trip breaker.

I tested my adapter to 20 amp 220 and blew the breaker on my 2016 Leaf.  It 
didn't go to 3.3kw but stayed with 6.6 and blew the breaker.  So much for sense 
protocol. I suspected as much.  Lawrence Rhodes
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