Re: The scope of physical law and its relationship to the substitution level
Dear Bruno, whatever you said (and I condone most of it) is WITHIN the scope of the --- H U M A N --- mindwork (logic, math, observation-explanations etc) - based on the limited access humanity *so far* achieved from the infinite complexity we may call WORLD or NATURE. Every new addition to such information (access?) may change the prior notions, theories, axioms, logic, computations and all our 'science'. I do not want to 'support' JohnKC or even participate in HIS discussion. I just want to feel content in my own (limited?) agnosticism and the belief I have IN IT. Maybe you would call it MY theology. Scope of 'physical law'? Looking back some millennia: it is a constantly changing view. Respectfully John Mikes On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 31 May 2015, at 04:13, John Clark wrote: On Sat, May 30, 2015M, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: See my preceding posts. I have already commented this. OK, lets think about your previous posts, like the one where you said Church's thesis is not related to physics at all or the one where you said Church's thesis say only that intuitively computable is exhaustively captured by the Lambda Calculus formalism Other than randomness nobody has ever seen anything in the physical world that was not computable. Physics uses real and complex numbers, and use analysis (which is second order arithmetic). There are no standard defifinition of computability for the class of analytical function and sets. It is not related to the function intuitively computable, which is a priori related to cognitive human ability. Church thesis only equate a notion of intuitive computability, an ability to get a result following discrete well determined elementary digital steps, with computability in some formal system (lambda calculus, etc.) CT makes an intuitive epistemic notion into a purely arithmetical notion. It does not require the assumption that there is a physical universe. The thesis equating function computable by physical means and function computable by Turing machine, is an interesting thesis, but that is a different thesis. And Lambda Calculus (in its most powerful form) is equivalent to a Turing Machine. And you can actually build a Turing Machine in the real world because it is made of matter. Not related to physics my ass! Church thesis is not a thesis related to physics. This does not mean that we cannot related them, but then you introduce a different thesis. A priori quantum computation could have been more powerful (in term of the size of computable functions) than the function computable with lambda calculus, and this would not have violated Church thesis, because making parallel universe interfering on real/complex values, is not what Turing had on mind when elaborating on the notion of intuitively computable function. Bruno John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
LizR: I find it funny if so many thinking minds on this list (and around the world?) take your *...You are simply assuming the truth of what you have so far failed to demonstrate. * seriously, YET the list continues in this endless self-assured worldview debate - some times even including views from OTHER 'religions' as well. So far I have not seen any justification to 'beheadings', 'floggings', 'stonings' and other brutal activity recalling the medieval inhumanities, as pertaining to the goodness of the God believed by such perpetrators. They believe to be honored for their brutality and inhumanity by eternal bliss in Heaven. Any remarks to that? it may be even more relevant than the Creatorship etc. JM On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 7:03 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 31 May 2015 at 03:24, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure there will be no injustice done to anybody. The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the heavens and earth. You are simply assuming the truth of what you have so far failed to demonstrate. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: The scope of physical law and its relationship to the substitution level
On Sun, May 31, 2015 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Other than randomness nobody has ever seen anything in the physical world that was not computable. Physics uses real and complex numbers, and use analysis (which is second order arithmetic). That's nice, but other than randomness (an event without a cause) nobody has ever seen anything in the physical world that was not computable. But computable does not necessarily mean predictable, sometimes the computation will take as long to perform as it takes the system to evolve, it's as if even nature doesn't have a shortcut and it must perform the same calculations you do to figure out what it's going to do next. There are no standard defifinition of computability for the class of analytical function and sets. That's nice, but I'm not talking about the class of analytical function and sets, I'm talking about computing what a physical system will do, or in the case of Quantum Mechanics what it will probably do. Church thesis only equate a notion of intuitive computability, an ability to get a result following discrete well determined elementary digital steps, with computability in some formal system Only?! (lambda calculus, etc.) And one of the etc is a Turing Machine, a device made of matter that obeys the laws of physics. It does not require the assumption that there is a physical universe. A Turing Machine does assume matter that obeys the laws of physics, and a Turing Machine is equivalent to Lambda Calculus. And in fact all Lambda Calculus calculations need to be performed on something, and the only something that anyone has ever found that works is matter that obeys the laws of physics, like a computer or a biological brain. A priori quantum computation could have been more powerful (in term of the size of computable functions) than the function computable with lambda calculus, and this would not have violated Church thesis, Even a quantum computer can't produce one of Turing's non-computable numbers. A conventional computer can solve any problem that a quantum computer can just somewhat slower. A lot slower actually, for some problems a mid sized quantum computer could give you an answer in a few minutes but a conventional supercomputer would not even be close to finishing when the sun goes off the main sequence and turns into a red giant and vaporizes the Earth 10^9 years from now; it would not even be finished when matter as we know it ceases to exist because of proton decay 10^40 years from now. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
On 1 June 2015 at 02:36, spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: John Pertwee or Tom Baker to the rescue! Behold, The Master has initiated Time Ram! Roger Delgado at the charge. Did you know Pertwee's son play's Alfred the Butler on Gotham? SPECTRE has activated Project Flemming to extort the world-and cause true global warming :-) In the story I'm thinking of it was Patrick Troughton. No I didn't know about that particular role, but I have come across Sean in various parts including Lestrade in Elementary -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
Well, Sean Pertwee, in this prequel to Batman, called Gotham, envisages the Batman character, Alfred the butler, taking on the role of raising an orphaned Bruce Wayne. The series, Gotham is a fully realized world, as they say, where the earth of Gotham City is not the earth that we inhabit in this list. No NYC, but instead, a larger, richer, and far, more, corrupt, Gotham. Think Gotham as a mix of the modern era, with the criminal activities, of Chicago during Prohibition, and the drug cartel wars we see in Mexico today. Instead of costumed villains and heroes, crime bosses are mafia Dons, who own and blackmail the local mayor, city council, and giant corporations. In this rendition, Alfred, is not only the butler, but really was the personal security guy, of Bruce's parents (billionaires) with a military SAS background. The bad guys like Penguin, Riddler, and Joker, have very modest starts on their climb to power. The Penguin, as a waiter who becomes a snitch, playing one mafia don, against another, in his ascent in Gotham. You might like it, depending on mood, time, interests, etc. More complex characterization and story arc, including detective Gordon, destined to rise to be police commissioner. High quality acting and cinematics, too. Sent from AOL Mobile Mail -Original Message- From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, May 31, 2015 06:27 PM Subject: Re: Samiya proved right div id=AOLMsgPart_2_329bb1e3-6527-4f78-85e7-28011efc6518 div dir=ltr div class=aolmail_gmail_extra div class=aolmail_gmail_quote On 1 June 2015 at 02:36, spudboy100 via Everything List span dir=ltra target=_blank href=mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com;everything-list@googlegroups.com/a/span wrote: blockquote class=aolmail_gmail_quote style=margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex font color=black face=arial size=2John font size=2Pertwee or Tom Baker to the rescue! Behold, The Master has initiated Time Ram! Roger Delgado at the charge. Did you know Pertwee's son play's Alfred the Butler on Gotham? SPECTRE has activated Project Flemming to extort the world-and cause true global warming :-)/font/font /blockquote In the story I'm thinking of it was Patrick Troughton. No I didn't know about that particular role, but I have come across Sean in various parts including Lestrade in Elementary /div /div /div p/p -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to a target=_blank href=mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com;everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com/a. To post to this group, send email to a target=_blank href=mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com;everything-list@googlegroups.com/a. Visit this group at a target=_blank href=http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list;http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list/a. For more options, visit a target=_blank href=https://groups.google.com/d/optout;https://groups.google.com/d/optout/a. /div -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 4:01 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 31 May 2015 at 03:42, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: Which is why I suggest that those who understand science should evaluate the Quranic statements about nature to examine if the author knows what he is talking about. Obviously for this to be a meaningful exercise it should be a double-blind test in which various sacred texts which give similar statements that could be seen as scientific are compared. One would need Biblical scholars, experts in the Norse Eddas, Buddhists and so on to take what they consider meaningful statements, suitably agnostic scholars to translate them if necessary, historians to give suitable interpretations to place them into context, and then a group of people with scientific knowledge, and no knowledge of their origin, to assign a score for how well them measure up. Plus some made up / contemporary statements should be thrown in for comparison. It doesn't have to be that complicated, though it would be wonderful if such a task is undertaken. The Quran, scientific research and other relevant material is easily accessible to all over the Internet now. Each literate individual with access to these resources can initiate their own personal study. All it really requires is an earnest desire to comprehend what might be a message from God. Samiya Taking the word of people who already believe a particular result that the statements from their preferred sacred texts have been correctly translated, interpreted and historically contextualised will not produce any meaningful data. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 5:32 AM, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: On 1 June 2015 at 06:37, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: LizR: I find it funny if so many thinking minds on this list (and around the world?) take your ...You are simply assuming the truth of what you have so far failed to demonstrate. seriously, YET the list continues in this endless self-assured worldview debate - some times even including views from OTHER 'religions' as well. So far I have not seen any justification to 'beheadings', 'floggings', 'stonings' and other brutal activity recalling the medieval inhumanities, as pertaining to the goodness of the God believed by such perpetrators. They believe to be honored for their brutality and inhumanity by eternal bliss in Heaven. Any remarks to that? it may be even more relevant than the Creatorship etc. JM I think Samiya would say that if God thinks beheadings, floggings and stonings are good, then they are good, by definition. I hope that was a question. The issues that J Mikes has raised are of an organisational nature, to be implemented by governments after legal evaluation for the maintenance of justice in society. I've gone into the details and shared my understanding of the Quranic injunctions earlier, hence I will not go into those details again. However, I would like to take this opportunity to highlight the actions which are required of individuals seeking 'eternal bliss in Heaven', some of which are: respecting and honouring parents; being kind and caring to family, relatives, friends, neighbours, travellers, etc.; being compassionate towards the poor: feeding the hungry, helping people pay off their debts, freeing the slaves; taking care of orphans and so on. Only recently I was studying some verses and researching the Internet for relevant data, and I was surprised to learn that though slavery was abolished years ago, yet 21-36 million people are still enslaved in various forms and guises. This might be of interest: World Hunger Slavery *Population Growth Food Resources* *Morality Homicide* *Abstract* Quran (6:151, 17:30-31) identifies poverty as the reason for hunger, and dismisses the notion that population growth leads to hunger, explicitly prohibiting the killing of children due to or out of fear of poverty. At another place, the Quran (Chapter 90) exhorts the free citizens to reduce inequality by freeing slaves and feeding the hungry, stating that these are the difficult yet required things to do. Quran (2:177) lists giving of wealth to the needy and freeing of slaves among the righteous deeds. According to the statistics, the agricultural yields are more than enough for the current and forecasted world population, yet one in every nine people on our planet suffers hunger every day! Though decrease in population growth is promoted as a remedy to the problem, yet no direct correlation has been found between population density and hunger. Unjust economic systems lead to Poverty and Inequality, which in turn cause Hunger, Indebtedness and Enslavement! An estimated 21 - 36 million people are enslaved today. Though legal slavery was finally banished from all countries in the world by 1981, yet its only changed in title and form - humans continue to be enslaved by fellow human beings. This article explores the meaning of the divine instruction and guidance in terms of the relevant information available. http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2015/05/world-hunger-slavery.html Samiya -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
On 1 June 2015 at 06:37, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: LizR: I find it funny if so many thinking minds on this list (and around the world?) take your ...You are simply assuming the truth of what you have so far failed to demonstrate. seriously, YET the list continues in this endless self-assured worldview debate - some times even including views from OTHER 'religions' as well. So far I have not seen any justification to 'beheadings', 'floggings', 'stonings' and other brutal activity recalling the medieval inhumanities, as pertaining to the goodness of the God believed by such perpetrators. They believe to be honored for their brutality and inhumanity by eternal bliss in Heaven. Any remarks to that? it may be even more relevant than the Creatorship etc. JM I think Samiya would say that if God thinks beheadings, floggings and stonings are good, then they are good, by definition. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
On 1 June 2015 at 12:32, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: On 1 June 2015 at 06:37, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: LizR: I find it funny if so many thinking minds on this list (and around the world?) take your ...You are simply assuming the truth of what you have so far failed to demonstrate. seriously, YET the list continues in this endless self-assured worldview debate - some times even including views from OTHER 'religions' as well. So far I have not seen any justification to 'beheadings', 'floggings', 'stonings' and other brutal activity recalling the medieval inhumanities, as pertaining to the goodness of the God believed by such perpetrators. They believe to be honored for their brutality and inhumanity by eternal bliss in Heaven. Any remarks to that? it may be even more relevant than the Creatorship etc. JM I think Samiya would say that if God thinks beheadings, floggings and stonings are good, then they are good, by definition. I suppose if there really is a God, a Heaven, and a Hell (though I find the idea abhorent and illogical that any loving God would allow Hell to exist) then it's possible to come up with a rational explanation for why they might be good. As Larry Niven had a character suggest in a short story, a rational reason for suicide would be that there really is a Hell, and it gets worst the longer you put off going there, Abolish all doubt and what's left is not faith, but absolute heartless conviction. -- Lesley Hazleton, author of 'The First Muslim,' a new look at the life of Muhammad. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
On 1 June 2015 at 08:37, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: LizR: I find it funny if so many thinking minds on this list (and around the world?) take your *...You are simply assuming the truth of what you have so far failed to demonstrate. * seriously, YET the list continues in this endless self-assured worldview debate - some times even including views from OTHER 'religions' as well. I'm not sure exactly what you are saying here. Are you talking about some of the things that have been labelled religions at times on this list (like Materialism, comp etc) or are we still on the more traditional religions? So far I have not seen any justification to 'beheadings', 'floggings', 'stonings' and other brutal activity recalling the medieval inhumanities, as pertaining to the goodness of the God believed by such perpetrators. They believe to be honored for their brutality and inhumanity by eternal bliss in Heaven. Any remarks to that? it may be even more relevant than the Creatorship etc. I agree - there is no justification for such activities, carried out in the name of religion, ideology or anything else. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: The scope of physical law and its relationship to the substitution level
On 1 June 2015 at 04:38, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: A Turing Machine does assume matter that obeys the laws of physics It assumes that an infinite tape is available. Which physical laws allow that? A Turing Machine is actually an *algorithm* - it isn't a mechanical device, although one could make a device that (imperfectly) instantiates the algorithm. (You could also make one of these imperfect instantiators using a wide variety of physical laws, in theory, just as you can use any symbol you like to represent a number.) So yes, as material beings, we require matter to do *anything.* But to say that therefore all abstractions assume matter is either to make a vacuous statement or to assume, as a metaphysical leap of faith, that primary materialism is true. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: The scope of physical law and its relationship to the substitution level
On Sun, May 31, 2015 LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: A Turing Machine does assume matter that obeys the laws of physics It assumes that an infinite tape is available. A Turing Machine assumes a unlimited tape, that is to say if you start to run out of tape you can order up more tape; it would only need an infinite amount of tape if a infinite number of calculations were required. A Turing Machine is actually an *algorithm* Yes, a algorithm that is a set of instructions that explains how to organize matter that obeys the laws of physics in such a way that it can make any finite calculation. it isn't a mechanical device, Well it better be if you expect it to actually do something! An algorithm without matter that obeys the laws of physics can't do diddly squat. although one could make a device that (imperfectly) instantiates the algorithm. You've got it backward, the algorithm imperfectly instantiates the device; the device has something very important that the algorithm lacks, matter that obeys the laws of physics. we require matter to do *anything.* But to say that therefore all abstractions assume matter is either to make a vacuous statement or to assume, as a metaphysical leap of faith, that primary materialism is true. So lets review, nobody has ever has ever made one single calculation without using matter that obeys the laws of physics and nobody has even come close to showing that such a thing could even happen, nevertheless you assume that it does and thus it is me with my uncertainty about the entire business who has engaged in a metaphysical leap of faith. Hmm..., explain to me again exactly how that works. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
On Monday, June 1, 2015, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 5:32 AM, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','stath...@gmail.com'); wrote: On 1 June 2015 at 06:37, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jami...@gmail.com'); wrote: LizR: I find it funny if so many thinking minds on this list (and around the world?) take your ...You are simply assuming the truth of what you have so far failed to demonstrate. seriously, YET the list continues in this endless self-assured worldview debate - some times even including views from OTHER 'religions' as well. So far I have not seen any justification to 'beheadings', 'floggings', 'stonings' and other brutal activity recalling the medieval inhumanities, as pertaining to the goodness of the God believed by such perpetrators. They believe to be honored for their brutality and inhumanity by eternal bliss in Heaven. Any remarks to that? it may be even more relevant than the Creatorship etc. JM I think Samiya would say that if God thinks beheadings, floggings and stonings are good, then they are good, by definition. I hope that was a question. The issues that J Mikes has raised are of an organisational nature, to be implemented by governments after legal evaluation for the maintenance of justice in society. I've gone into the details and shared my understanding of the Quranic injunctions earlier, hence I will not go into those details again. However, I would like to take this opportunity to highlight the actions which are required of individuals seeking 'eternal bliss in Heaven', some of which are: respecting and honouring parents; being kind and caring to family, relatives, friends, neighbours, travellers, etc.; being compassionate towards the poor: feeding the hungry, helping people pay off their debts, freeing the slaves; taking care of orphans and so on. Only recently I was studying some verses and researching the Internet for relevant data, and I was surprised to learn that though slavery was abolished years ago, yet 21-36 million people are still enslaved in various forms and guises. This might be of interest: World Hunger Slavery *Population Growth Food Resources* *Morality Homicide* *Abstract* Quran (6:151, 17:30-31) identifies poverty as the reason for hunger, and dismisses the notion that population growth leads to hunger, explicitly prohibiting the killing of children due to or out of fear of poverty. At another place, the Quran (Chapter 90) exhorts the free citizens to reduce inequality by freeing slaves and feeding the hungry, stating that these are the difficult yet required things to do. Quran (2:177) lists giving of wealth to the needy and freeing of slaves among the righteous deeds. According to the statistics, the agricultural yields are more than enough for the current and forecasted world population, yet one in every nine people on our planet suffers hunger every day! Though decrease in population growth is promoted as a remedy to the problem, yet no direct correlation has been found between population density and hunger. Unjust economic systems lead to Poverty and Inequality, which in turn cause Hunger, Indebtedness and Enslavement! An estimated 21 - 36 million people are enslaved today. Though legal slavery was finally banished from all countries in the world by 1981, yet its only changed in title and form - humans continue to be enslaved by fellow human beings. This article explores the meaning of the divine instruction and guidance in terms of the relevant information available. http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2015/05/world-hunger-slavery.html What you're doing is deciding (using your own mind) what is right, then searching in the Quran to see if it agrees with you. But that is not how it works if the Quran is God's word and God is always right. Instead, if you find something in the Quran that contradicts you, you should admit that you were wrong. For example, if you think slavery is wrong but it can be shown to you that the Quran says slavery is right, then you should either change your view of the morality of slavery or admit that you are against God. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
On 31 May 2015, at 9:03 am, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 31 May 2015 at 03:24, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: God created humans How do you know FFS? There are by now a few credible alternative scenarios. Why does G have to be the grandmother of every bloody thing? Can't someone or something else be responsible for humans other than God? Personally, I think G would be embarrassed to be associated with the likes of humans. If God created humans then he/she/it is certainly something of an underachiever. Just look at the world. and knows everything about us and within us. You are starting to make God sound almost as big as the NSA and Google. You have to come up to speed on this issue. God doesn't know as much as the NSA about you, Samiya. I'm sure there will be no injustice done to anybody. Ha hahaaa,, splutter, gurgle, cough, gasp The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming to know another human. So what is it, HUMAN, that you know about the doings and otherwise of those who are not, like yourself, human? You give yourself airs and graces. You are making all of this up as you go along. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the heavens and earth. You are starting to sound like His Eminence The Very Reverend Cardinal George Pell The Smell From Hell who finally has Pope Bergoglio cornered on the Horns of the Devil. You religious people have all had your brains hijacked by something truly evil that makes you think you know something about what no human can possibly know. You talk as though you have God in your hip pocket and you can pull him/her/it out and like a ventriloquist, put words in the mouth of the God sock puppet. But they are your words, you mental midget. Nobody on this list gives a flying fuck about any Holy Book, their own or anyone else's. We eat Holy books on our cornflakes for breakfast. You can get at least ten minute's warmth out of a Qu'ran or a St James in the dead of winter. You are simply assuming the truth of what you have so far failed to demonstrate. To say the bloody least Kim -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
On 1 June 2015 at 14:12, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 4:01 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 31 May 2015 at 03:42, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: Which is why I suggest that those who understand science should evaluate the Quranic statements about nature to examine if the author knows what he is talking about. Obviously for this to be a meaningful exercise it should be a double-blind test in which various sacred texts which give similar statements that could be seen as scientific are compared. One would need Biblical scholars, experts in the Norse Eddas, Buddhists and so on to take what they consider meaningful statements, suitably agnostic scholars to translate them if necessary, historians to give suitable interpretations to place them into context, and then a group of people with scientific knowledge, and no knowledge of their origin, to assign a score for how well them measure up. Plus some made up / contemporary statements should be thrown in for comparison. It doesn't have to be that complicated, though it would be wonderful if such a task is undertaken. The Quran, scientific research and other relevant material is easily accessible to all over the Internet now. Each literate individual with access to these resources can initiate their own personal study. All it really requires is an earnest desire to comprehend what might be a message from God. If it isn't that complicated, the results will be meaningless. That is the point of double blind tests - to avoid preconception and bias on the part of the experimenters and the experimental subjects. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
Well, I am not supporting that life is an illusion, sort of thing, because simply put, if one drops a hammer on one's toes, the pain is still there, whether the world is real or not. What I suggest is that it's a great computation, maybe a simulation, maybe the real combined with a sim, maybe something we do not have a term for as yet?* Certainly, if you gather ideas from physicists and philosophers over at the FQXI website (Funded by the Templeton Foundation) who come up with very esoteric ideas that somehow sound convincing, to me. The old religious guys of centuries ago did their best. However, their beliefs that they met with angels in caves or God on a mountain top, seem less likely to me. In fact, for me, the more plausible God and angels now seem, the less likely the old guys actually met with somebody real. Instead of God I could say Mind, and instead of angels, I could say AI's/software personalities, the soul becomes a mind clone, etc. *The universe looks more like a great thought then a great machine. -Physicist, James Jeans. And, philosophers of science like John Leslie, many great thoughts, many great machines, maybe at some point these become the same, depending on who is thinking, such...thoughts. -Original Message- From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 5:11 pm Subject: Re: Samiya proved right That is the analogy I also used to understand and explain with some years ago. It helps to make sense of it. However, the Quran states that it has been created in Truth / Reality, hence I hesitate to use that analogy. Samiya On 31-May-2015, at 1:13 am, spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Well, it sort of sabotaged technological progress for what was then excellent, progress. It's a reasonable thing to say, the we need God and He doesn't need us. However, just by the way the world works, the lack of cause and effect in personal lives, disease, earthquakes, etc. I make no claims about God. It might be a better neutral way to describe God as a Mind, and worry about how we think about it later. This is probably trivial and shallow, but I try to look at things from the purely human point of view-however miserable and flawed humans are. Moreover, I see the universe as increasingly looking like a great program, or a simulation. Thus, the actually cosmology of the astronomers becomes a secondary thing, because no matter what it's shape or age, it all functions like a computation. -Original Message- From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 1:05 pm Subject: Re: Samiya proved right On 30-May-2015, at 6:38 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Here is what stopped Islamic science of 900 years ago. Insh Allah, Ma'shallah! God wills, as god wills! This solves everything, so why study things further. Allah is in control of it all. All is me'toub! Fated by Allah. So studying how photosynthesis works, or what the moon is made from. The moon is made of stone and created by Allah-so what more do we need to know. All is in Allah's hands, and He is the best judge to know! And thus Muslim civilisation suffered the consequence of not heeding to the repeated advise in the Quran to contemplate on nature and use intelligence. Please, I repeat, the beliefs of Muslims or people of any faith for that matter, will not serve as an excuse for any of us. We will all be judged individually. God doesn't need us, we need God. Samiya -Original Message- From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 11:24 am Subject: Re: Samiya proved right God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure there will be no injustice done to anybody. The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created us, sustains us and is aware of
Re: Samiya proved right
Its probably just the way I remembered it. -Original Message- From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 7:07 pm Subject: Re: Samiya proved right On 31 May 2015 at 03:32, spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Twas brillig as slithey toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe all mimsy were the borogroves as the ramprats outgrabe I'm not sure why you (mis)quoted this, but from memory the correct version is more like this: Twas brillig, and the slithy toves Did gyre and gimbal in the wabe All mimsey were the borogroves And the mome raths outgrabe The rest I'm less certain about. (Something about Beware the Bandersnatch my son - the claws that catch, the jaws that bite...) But anyway, I'd like to enter it into my scientific meaning found in sacred texts experiment. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
Agreed. Philosopher, John Leslie, uses the terms ethical requiredness, when applying this to God. It's somehow easier for most, emotionally, simply to drop the God thing, as an expectation in their lives. High expectations can mean high disappointments. Physicist, Guilio Prisco suggests that humanities descendents take up the burden of God as an idea, on making things better in life. -Original Message- From: Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 7:14 pm Subject: Re: Samiya proved right On Sunday, May 31, 2015, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure there will be no injustice done to anybody. The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the heavens and earth. Samiya Then you have a different moral standard for God. If a human tortures someone for fun, that's bad, but if God does it, that's fine. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
No No No! You've all got it wrong again! It's not the Trump of Doom, you sillies. It's the Doom of Trump! See? http://nypost.com/2015/05/30/stop-pretending-donald-trump-is-not-running-for-president/ -Original Message- From: Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, May 30, 2015 11:47 pm Subject: Re: Samiya proved right Anyway, look - screw all this tedious God stuff already. Meanwhile back on topic about The Trump of Doom: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/02/weather-wars.html Kim On 31 May 2015, at 11:56 am, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 31 May 2015 at 11:14, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday, May 31, 2015, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote: God created humans and knows everything about us and within us. I'm sure there will be no injustice done to anybody. The analogies you give are between humans. We do not know our own selves: subconscious, composition details, thoughts, mind, etc. , let alone claiming to know another human. We cannot apply that reasoning to the One who created us, sustains us and is aware of everything manifest and hidden throughout the heavens and earth. Samiya Then you have a different moral standard for God. If a human tortures someone for fun, that's bad, but if God does it, that's fine. If a human demands worship and claims to love everyone while punishing them for going against his laws, we call him a narcissistic psychopath. But when God does it, that's fine. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. Kim Jones B.Mus.GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Mobile:0450 963 719 Landline: 02 9389 4239 Web:http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com “I’m not saying there aren’t a lot of dangerous people out there. I am saying a lot of them are in government - Russell Brand -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Samiya proved right
John Pertwee or Tom Baker to the rescue! Behold, The Master has initiated Time Ram! Roger Delgado at the charge. Did you know Pertwee's son play's Alfred the Butler on Gotham? SPECTRE has activated Project Flemming to extort the world-and cause true global warming :-) -Original Message- From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, May 31, 2015 12:18 am Subject: Re: Samiya proved right PS That set off volcanoes from a distance as a weapon idea was used in a Dr Who story in the 1960s. (Not sure if any of Bond's enemies ever got around to that one...) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: The scope of physical law and its relationship to the substitution level
On 31 May 2015, at 04:13, John Clark wrote: On Sat, May 30, 2015M, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: See my preceding posts. I have already commented this. OK, lets think about your previous posts, like the one where you said Church's thesis is not related to physics at all or the one where you said Church's thesis say only that intuitively computable is exhaustively captured by the Lambda Calculus formalism Other than randomness nobody has ever seen anything in the physical world that was not computable. Physics uses real and complex numbers, and use analysis (which is second order arithmetic). There are no standard defifinition of computability for the class of analytical function and sets. It is not related to the function intuitively computable, which is a priori related to cognitive human ability. Church thesis only equate a notion of intuitive computability, an ability to get a result following discrete well determined elementary digital steps, with computability in some formal system (lambda calculus, etc.) CT makes an intuitive epistemic notion into a purely arithmetical notion. It does not require the assumption that there is a physical universe. The thesis equating function computable by physical means and function computable by Turing machine, is an interesting thesis, but that is a different thesis. And Lambda Calculus (in its most powerful form) is equivalent to a Turing Machine. And you can actually build a Turing Machine in the real world because it is made of matter. Not related to physics my ass! Church thesis is not a thesis related to physics. This does not mean that we cannot related them, but then you introduce a different thesis. A priori quantum computation could have been more powerful (in term of the size of computable functions) than the function computable with lambda calculus, and this would not have violated Church thesis, because making parallel universe interfering on real/complex values, is not what Turing had on mind when elaborating on the notion of intuitively computable function. Bruno John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
