Re: An invisible fuzzy amoral mindless blob, aka God

[Brent Meeker]

On 1/19/2017 12:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
Using God in the sense of whatever is needed to have a reality, and 
maybe just that reality, helps to keep in mind that Primitive-Matter 
existence needs an act of faith. Nobody can prove its exoistence, and 
a materialist assumes that such a Primitive Matter is at the origin of 
all other realities (biologicl, psychological, etc.). It is your 
theology, apparently.


You're beating on your straw man.  Nobody tries to prove the existence 
of matter - it's an hypothesis used to explain the world. It's defined 
ostensively.  Whatever is the basic ontology of a theory of everything 
can be nominated "primitive" - adding "matter" or "computation" or just 
"stuff" doesn't add anything except confusion.




For our topic, you need to explain how that God-Matter succeeds in 
selecting some computation(s) among all computations.


You don't need to explain that if you don't assume all computations exist.

Brent

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Re: An invisible fuzzy amoral mindless blob, aka God

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

Hmmm
I tend to agree with John Clark's pessimism, on ET, but basically, question his 
axiomatic support (logically) of stuff like Von Neumann robots, and Dyson 
spheres. It indeed has logic to it, yet it it too is pure imagination. We are 
not sure, I am not sure, if the human species possesses Von Neumann capability, 
we'd decide to tear apart the gas giants to make one quadrillion, 4-bedroom 
ranch homes in the Earth-orbital suburb. (am American reference here, Dr. 
Marchal). 


What is far cheaper, energy-wise, is to doze in virtual realities, pretending 
we a Captain Kirk, or Harriet Potter, or the Donald. I mean, both the Dyson 
thing and Virch reality are a means to please the amygdala, if one is familiar 
with basic, human, brain structure. 


Secondly, nobody outside of what Dyson proposed years ago, and a few followers 
looking at Tabby's Star, knows what such cosmic engineering really looks like? 
What would your litmus test for space aliens, look like John, a galaxy of Blue 
shift stars, or something that looks like concentric rings? 


-Original Message-
From: John Clark 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Wed, Jan 18, 2017 7:31 pm
Subject: Re: An invisible fuzzy amoral mindless blob, aka God



On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 2:31 PM, Brent Meeker  wrote:




  

​> ​
I don't think it's obvious that we could detect that a probe hadbeen sent 
to a star. 




​It would be obvious if it was a self replicating von Neumann probe, just one 
probe could construct a Dyson Sphere around every star in the Galaxy in 50 
million years, and that would be very hard to overlook. 
 



 
​> ​
And in any case the observable universe isvery much bigger than our galaxy.




​If ET existed the observable universe would look engineered, and it doesn't. 




John K Clark​
 






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Re: An invisible fuzzy amoral mindless blob, aka God

[Bruno Marchal]

On 18 Jan 2017, at 19:04, John Clark wrote:

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 3:16 AM, Bruno Marchal   
wrote:


​> ​God is the creator (in a large sense of the word) of the  
universe.


​That's exactly the problem, the large sense of the word "creator"  
is so large it becomes meaningless.



Not at all. In Plato-like theology, they use the word emanation. There  
is the ONE, often nicknamed GOD. From it, the NOUS (the Intelligible  
Reality, the World of Ideas) emanates, and, the Universe-Soul emanates  
from the Noùs.




Your God does not ​need to be a person, your God doesn't need to be  
intelligent, your God could be anything, even a random quantum  
fluctuation could be God.


The quantum physical world, without the vacuum, or other initiial  
conditions. Indeed. It is the option God = Matter, and is basically  
the theological assumption of the Materialist.






You can redefine a horse's tail to be a leg and then you can say a  
horse has 5 legs, but doing so will not teach you anything about the  
nature of reality or about horses.  The only reason you'd make such  
a redefinition would be you enjoy saying "a horse has 5 legs", and  
the only reason you're redefining "God" the way you have is you  
enjoy saying "I believe in God".



Yes. for the same reason that we call 0 and 1 number. That's what we  
do in science. Using God in the sense of whatever is needed to have a  
reality, and maybe just that reality, helps to keep in mind that  
Primitive-Matter existence needs an act of faith. Nobody can prove its  
exoistence, and a materialist assumes that such a Primitive Matter is  
at the origin of all other realities (biologicl, psychological, etc.).  
It is your theology, apparently.


For our topic, you need to explain how that God-Matter succeeds in  
selecting some computation(s) among all computations.


The computationalist answer is that such God does not exist, and that  
there is no selection. The appearance of matter have to be explained  
by the statistic on all sigma_1 sentences, structured by the material  
hypostases. This can be shown to be possible only if the material  
hypostases ([]p & <>t (& p), p sigma_1) obeys quantum logic, and that  
is indeed the case.







​> ​But we know you stop at the step 3 or the main argument,

​Yes, that's where you made your blunder, a blunder I've been  
asking you for years to fix but you have been unable to. ​


That is what some people have called a lie here. You have given  
incompatible answers, and many insults.  You are the only one to have  
a (psychological?) problem here.






​> ​you want stick to the Aristotelian theology.

​Aristotle was a imbecile and theology has no field of study.  And  
you've taught me to hate the ancient Greeks. I'm sick to death of  
them.


Read the book by Daniel J. Cohen (not Daniel E. Cohen). You will  
understand that not only physics and mathematics comes from Greek  
theology, but that modern mathematical logic is also a recent (19/20th  
century) attempt to come back to Plato, and to rigor in theology. You  
will also understand why this is well hidden, to the benefits of the  
clerical powers.


To say that theology has no field of study consists in siding with the  
clericals by letting the field in their hands, which confirms again,  
like if that was needed the de facto alliance between gnostic atheism  
and the charlatan. It makes also Aristotelian Materialist assumption  
into an implicit dogma.


Just explain how your God-Matter select the computation. Or read the  
literature to see why this has never work, or try to progress in the  
computationalist argument which explains why this cannot work.


Bruno







John K Clark  ​





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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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