Re: Why consciousness/life/intelligence is not and cannot be physical
On 25 Dec 2012, at 09:47, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Jason Resch No, the issue of consciousness is not a condition caused by pragmatics, the use of language. I agree. Consciousness is deeper and more primitive than language, although self-consciousness appears together with the ability to develop language and symbolism. Consciousness/life/intelligence (subjectivity, or knowledge by acquaintance or 1p) is fundamentally different from anyhing objective (physical or (knowledge by description or 3p). Materialism cannot properly deal with knowledge by acquaintance (1p), can only deal with 3p. Materialism can explain a lot. But then it is simply inconsistent with comp, and the appearance of matter has to be explained by statistics on (arithmetical) computations. The brief version of this is that Cs is personal, not impersonal. 1p is slo the mysterious world of solipsism, which does not exist in the physical world. It is the world of the Tao Te Ching (What is spoken of as the Tao is not the tao). God has no name, OK. And 1p is the inner God, who inherit his lack of name from the lack of name of the outer God. Bruno [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/25/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Jason Resch Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-24, 11:20:22 Subject: Re: Re: How visual images are produced in the brain. Was Dennettrightafter all ? On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Jason Resch I would define consciousness as perception, 爀ither internal or external, by any of the senses. So it is an activity, a verb, not a thing or noun. Language is very flexible. 燨ften nouns are formed to describe what are fundamentally activities (e.g., a party, a dance, Brownian motion, (radioactive) decay, a race, etc.). 營 agree with you that consciousness is fundamentally an activity. Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Why consciousness/life/intelligence is not and cannot be physical
Hi Jason Resch No, the issue of consciousness is not a condition caused by pragmatics, the use of language. Consciousness/life/intelligence (subjectivity, or knowledge by acquaintance or 1p) is fundamentally different from anyhing objective (physical or (knowledge by description or 3p). Materialism cannot properly deal with knowledge by acquaintance (1p), can only deal with 3p. The brief version of this is that Cs is personal, not impersonal. 1p is slo the mysterious world of solipsism, which does not exist in the physical world. It is the world of the Tao Te Ching (What is spoken of as the Tao is not the tao). [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 12/25/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Jason Resch Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-12-24, 11:20:22 Subject: Re: Re: How visual images are produced in the brain. Was Dennettrightafter all ? On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Jason Resch I would define consciousness as perception, ?ither internal or external, by any of the senses. So it is an activity, a verb, not a thing or noun. Language is very flexible. ?ften nouns are formed to describe what are fundamentally activities (e.g., a party, a dance, Brownian motion, (radioactive) decay, a race, etc.). ? agree with you that consciousness is fundamentally an activity. Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Consciousness = life = intelligence
On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Consciousness = life = intelligence. Therefore oak trees are intelligent and conscious. In addition, intelligence requires free will Cannot comment, don't know what ASCII sequence free will means. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: RE: RE: RE: Consciousness = life = intelligence
Hi Hal Ruhl 1) OK, I was thinking only about the living entity. Even so, the storage of energy by its body ought to delay degeneration by its lifetime, not increase the rate of decay. 2) As to randomness of the environment, you seem to know more about that than I do. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/9/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Hal Ruhl Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-08, 11:53:46 Subject: RE: RE: RE: Consciousness = life = intelligence Hi Roger: You have to look at the net effect of the entire biosphere. I am not a biologist and can't speak to the total net effect of photosynthesis. But it does store some part of the energy flow it encompasses. Humans are rather substantial energy hang-up barrier busters. We also store internal energy as fat or external energy as say chemical energy in a battery or gravitational energy as water behind a dam. We are also dependent on the storage ability of photosynthesis to live. I am currently convinced that the net effect of the biosphere [life] is in compliance with pAP1. I suspect that each individual life entity upon sufficiently close inspection will be found to be as well. Further the environment necessary for life to arise as I propose and be sustainable is hardly random. Hal -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 5:51 AM To: everything-list Subject: Re: RE: RE: Consciousness = life = intelligence Hi Hal Ruhl Since life in the form of photosynthesis creates order in the form of cell structure out of a random (entropic) environment, life seems to reverse time's arrow, and hence slow down the heat death of the universe. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/8/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Hal Ruhl Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 14:27:03 Subject: RE: RE: Consciousness = life = intelligence Hi Roger: pAP1 [proposed Actual Purpose #1] is the life purpose I introduced in the discussion initiating posts. See below. I recently posted giving acronyms. AP is the actual purpose of life acronym. 8) Conclusion (2): Once life is present it will immediately punch as many holes in as many Energy Hang-up Barriers as the details of the particular life entity involved allows - this is how it realizes its energy flow conduit character. This is the purpose of life herein. In other words life's purpose is to hasten the heat death of its host universe. Hal -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 12:34 PM To: everything-list Subject: Re: RE: Consciousness = life = intelligence Hi Hal Ruhl What is pAP1 ? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/7/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Hal Ruhl Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 12:18:21 Subject: RE: Consciousness = life = intelligence Hi Roger: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 11:06 AM To: everything-list Subject: Consciousness = life = intelligence Hi Hal Ruhl Consciousness = life = intelligence. These are an inseparable, subjective, inextended properties of a living being. Hal: Consciousness is merely a qualia of life enabling life's compliance with pAP1. In addition, intelligence requires free will of some degree in order to make life-preserving choices for an associated, objective body, such as are required for self-animation, metabolism, self-defense, eating and mating. Hal: pAP1 precludes freewill because ALL of life's qualia [such as consciousness] merely enable compliance with pAP1. Hal Ruhl -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything
Re: RE: RE: Consciousness = life = intelligence
Hi Hal Ruhl Since life in the form of photosynthesis creates order in the form of cell structure out of a random (entropic) environment, life seems to reverse time's arrow, and hence slow down the heat death of the universe. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/8/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Hal Ruhl Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 14:27:03 Subject: RE: RE: Consciousness = life = intelligence Hi Roger: pAP1 [proposed Actual Purpose #1] is the life purpose I introduced in the discussion initiating posts. See below. I recently posted giving acronyms. AP is the actual purpose of life acronym. 8) Conclusion (2): Once life is present it will immediately punch as many holes in as many Energy Hang-up Barriers as the details of the particular life entity involved allows - this is how it realizes its energy flow conduit character. This is the purpose of life herein. In other words life's purpose is to hasten the heat death of its host universe. Hal -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 12:34 PM To: everything-list Subject: Re: RE: Consciousness = life = intelligence Hi Hal Ruhl What is pAP1 ? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/7/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Hal Ruhl Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 12:18:21 Subject: RE: Consciousness = life = intelligence Hi Roger: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 11:06 AM To: everything-list Subject: Consciousness = life = intelligence Hi Hal Ruhl Consciousness = life = intelligence. These are an inseparable, subjective, inextended properties of a living being. Hal: Consciousness is merely a qualia of life enabling life's compliance with pAP1. In addition, intelligence requires free will of some degree in order to make life-preserving choices for an associated, objective body, such as are required for self-animation, metabolism, self-defense, eating and mating. Hal: pAP1 precludes freewill because ALL of life's qualia [such as consciousness] merely enable compliance with pAP1. Hal Ruhl -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
RE: RE: RE: Consciousness = life = intelligence
Hi Roger: You have to look at the net effect of the entire biosphere. I am not a biologist and can't speak to the total net effect of photosynthesis. But it does store some part of the energy flow it encompasses. Humans are rather substantial energy hang-up barrier busters. We also store internal energy as fat or external energy as say chemical energy in a battery or gravitational energy as water behind a dam. We are also dependent on the storage ability of photosynthesis to live. I am currently convinced that the net effect of the biosphere [life] is in compliance with pAP1. I suspect that each individual life entity upon sufficiently close inspection will be found to be as well. Further the environment necessary for life to arise as I propose and be sustainable is hardly random. Hal -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 5:51 AM To: everything-list Subject: Re: RE: RE: Consciousness = life = intelligence Hi Hal Ruhl Since life in the form of photosynthesis creates order in the form of cell structure out of a random (entropic) environment, life seems to reverse time's arrow, and hence slow down the heat death of the universe. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/8/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Hal Ruhl Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 14:27:03 Subject: RE: RE: Consciousness = life = intelligence Hi Roger: pAP1 [proposed Actual Purpose #1] is the life purpose I introduced in the discussion initiating posts. See below. I recently posted giving acronyms. AP is the actual purpose of life acronym. 8) Conclusion (2): Once life is present it will immediately punch as many holes in as many Energy Hang-up Barriers as the details of the particular life entity involved allows - this is how it realizes its energy flow conduit character. This is the purpose of life herein. In other words life's purpose is to hasten the heat death of its host universe. Hal -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 12:34 PM To: everything-list Subject: Re: RE: Consciousness = life = intelligence Hi Hal Ruhl What is pAP1 ? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/7/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Hal Ruhl Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 12:18:21 Subject: RE: Consciousness = life = intelligence Hi Roger: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 11:06 AM To: everything-list Subject: Consciousness = life = intelligence Hi Hal Ruhl Consciousness = life = intelligence. These are an inseparable, subjective, inextended properties of a living being. Hal: Consciousness is merely a qualia of life enabling life's compliance with pAP1. In addition, intelligence requires free will of some degree in order to make life-preserving choices for an associated, objective body, such as are required for self-animation, metabolism, self-defense, eating and mating. Hal: pAP1 precludes freewill because ALL of life's qualia [such as consciousness] merely enable compliance with pAP1. Hal Ruhl -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You
Consciousness = life = intelligence
Hi Hal Ruhl Consciousness = life = intelligence. These are an inseparable, subjective, inextended properties of a living being. In addition, intelligence requires free will of some degree in order to make life-preserving choices for an associated, objective body, such as are required for self-animation, metabolism, self-defense, eating and mating. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/7/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Hal Ruhl Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-06, 13:27:27 Subject: Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum Hi Everyone: Here are some expansions on my prior post regarding the following three topics: i) Consciousness: Define it for now as the detection by a life entity of the current system energy configuration both internal and external to the life entity sufficient to ensure its adherence to its Actual Purpose [AP] in its universe. In our universe it appears that even single cells may have antenna to facilitate this detection. See ScienceNews, 11/03/12, page 16. I have proposed that life's AP in this universe is the one I derived in earlier posts. Call this proposed Actual Purpose 1 [pAP1]. I see no reason how the life? Origin that I propose and pAP1 conflict with such antenna on individual cells. ii) Freewill: pAP1 precludes it because life must always follow its purpose, so too for any AP that differs from pAP1. iii) Species survival: Life on this planet is in the midst of an extinction event [not a new idea] that can't be stopped because pAP1 would be the only priority for life. We may not be extinguished as a species but we can't exclude ourselves from the extinction because of pPA1. There have been a number of extinction events. However, evolution has used some of these to produce new life entities with greater energy hang-up barrier busting ability than the extinguished ones - new life entities such as ourselves from the K-Pg event. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
RE: Consciousness = life = intelligence
Hi Roger: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 11:06 AM To: everything-list Subject: Consciousness = life = intelligence Hi Hal Ruhl Consciousness = life = intelligence. These are an inseparable, subjective, inextended properties of a living being. Hal: Consciousness is merely a qualia of life enabling life's compliance with pAP1. In addition, intelligence requires free will of some degree in order to make life-preserving choices for an associated, objective body, such as are required for self-animation, metabolism, self-defense, eating and mating. Hal: pAP1 precludes freewill because ALL of life's qualia [such as consciousness] merely enable compliance with pAP1. Hal Ruhl -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
