Re: R: Re: Holiday Exercise
On 03 Aug 2016, at 08:50, Bruce Kellett wrote: On 3/08/2016 4:37 pm, 'scerir' via Everything List wrote: The suggestion that the one consciousness could inhabit more than one physical body does not predict telepathy -- it could merely indicate that consciousness is not localized to a single physical body, that it is non-local, for instance. Or, indeed, that physics is not fundamental but derivative on consciousness. Bruce This reminds me of Schroedinger. “The doctrine of identity can claim that it is clinched by the empirical fact that consciousness is never experienced in the plural, only in the singular. Not only has none of us even experienced more than one consciousness, but there is no trace of circumstantial evidence of this even happening anywhere in the world” (much more in "What is Life?") I don't think Schrödinger was considering person duplicating machines. He is using the normal transitive understanding of identity, which is also under question in the duplication protocol. Sure, like in Everett's formulation of QM, also. Bruno Bruce -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
R: Re: R: Re: Holiday Exercise
>Messaggio originale >Da: "Brent Meeker" <meeke...@verizon.net> >Data: 03/08/2016 8.49 >A: <everything-list@googlegroups.com> >Ogg: Re: R: Re: Holiday Exercise > > > >On 8/2/2016 11:37 PM, 'scerir' via Everything List wrote: >> >> >> >> The suggestion that the one consciousness could inhabit more than one physical >> body does not predict telepathy -- it could merely indicate that consciousness >> is not localized to a single physical body, that it is non-local, for instance. >> Or, indeed, that physics is not fundamental but derivative on consciousness. >> Bruce >> >> This reminds me of Schroedinger. “The doctrine of identity can claim that it >> is clinched by the empirical fact that consciousness is never experienced in >> the plural, only in the singular. Not only has none of us even experienced more >> than one consciousness, but there is no trace of circumstantial evidence of >> this even happening anywhere in the world” (much more in "What is Life?") > >But the question isn't whether the Helsinki man experiences two >consciousnesses, it's whether he experiences one consciousness of two >locations. You can already be conscious of two locations via >television; it's just that your consciousness of one of the places is >very limited because you get only visual perception of it and you can't >act on it. > >Brent Yes. I remember that, long time ago, David Finkelstein was also interested in "introspective" systems. "There is, to be sure, a genuine problem in the phenomenon of quantum measurement, but I will not discuss it here. It concerns introspective systems, where subject = object so that the basic conception of a single subject observing an ensemble of objects must be modified." -- David Finkelstein in "The Physics of Logic" (in "Paradigms and Paradoxes", ed. R. G. Colodny, 1971, Un. Pittsburgh, p. 60) . I wrote a short email and he responded. "Weizsäcker proposed in conversation that in fact the observer divides into two parts on such occasions, and then one observes the other as usual. When the observer is outside the system, the measurement is represented by a time- dependent interaction Hamiltonian. This would not make sense for self- observation, but one can imagine a self-interaction governed by an internal parameter instead of time." I'm writing that because to me consciousness may have something to do with "introspective" systems. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
R: Re: R: Re: Holiday Exercise
>> The suggestion that the one consciousness could inhabit more than one physical >> body does not predict telepathy -- it could merely indicate that consciousness >> is not localized to a single physical body, that it is non-local, for instance. >> Or, indeed, that physics is not fundamental but derivative on consciousness. >> Bruce >> >> This reminds me of Schroedinger. “The doctrine of identity can claim that it >> is clinched by the empirical fact that consciousness is never experienced in >> the plural, only in the singular. Not only has none of us even experienced more >> than one consciousness, but there is no trace of circumstantial evidence of >> this even happening anywhere in the world” (much more in "What is Life?") >I don't think Schrödinger was considering person duplicating machines. >He is using the normal transitive understanding of identity, which is >also under question in the duplication protocol. >Bruce Yes. Surprisingly Schroedinger had his own many-minds interpretation (quantum measurement). But he was mainly interested in the "oneness of mind" and in the "oneness of world". "The world is given to me only once, not one existing and one perceived. Subject and object are only one. The barrier between them cannot be said to have broken down as a result of recent experience in the physical sciences, for this barrier does not exist." "The only possible alternative is simply to keep to the immediate experience that consciousness is a singular of which the plural is unknown; that there is only one thing and that what seems to be a plurality is merely a series of different aspects of this one thing…" https://theworldknot.wordpress.com/2014/02/07/erwin-schrodinger-on- consciousness/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: R: Re: Holiday Exercise
On 3/08/2016 4:37 pm, 'scerir' via Everything List wrote: The suggestion that the one consciousness could inhabit more than one physical body does not predict telepathy -- it could merely indicate that consciousness is not localized to a single physical body, that it is non-local, for instance. Or, indeed, that physics is not fundamental but derivative on consciousness. Bruce This reminds me of Schroedinger. “The doctrine of identity can claim that it is clinched by the empirical fact that consciousness is never experienced in the plural, only in the singular. Not only has none of us even experienced more than one consciousness, but there is no trace of circumstantial evidence of this even happening anywhere in the world” (much more in "What is Life?") I don't think Schrödinger was considering person duplicating machines. He is using the normal transitive understanding of identity, which is also under question in the duplication protocol. Bruce -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: R: Re: Holiday Exercise
On 8/2/2016 11:37 PM, 'scerir' via Everything List wrote: The suggestion that the one consciousness could inhabit more than one physical body does not predict telepathy -- it could merely indicate that consciousness is not localized to a single physical body, that it is non-local, for instance. Or, indeed, that physics is not fundamental but derivative on consciousness. Bruce This reminds me of Schroedinger. “The doctrine of identity can claim that it is clinched by the empirical fact that consciousness is never experienced in the plural, only in the singular. Not only has none of us even experienced more than one consciousness, but there is no trace of circumstantial evidence of this even happening anywhere in the world” (much more in "What is Life?") But the question isn't whether the Helsinki man experiences two consciousnesses, it's whether he experiences one consciousness of two locations. You can already be conscious of two locations via television; it's just that your consciousness of one of the places is very limited because you get only visual perception of it and you can't act on it. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
R: Re: Holiday Exercise
The suggestion that the one consciousness could inhabit more than one physical body does not predict telepathy -- it could merely indicate that consciousness is not localized to a single physical body, that it is non-local, for instance. Or, indeed, that physics is not fundamental but derivative on consciousness. Bruce This reminds me of Schroedinger. “The doctrine of identity can claim that it is clinched by the empirical fact that consciousness is never experienced in the plural, only in the singular. Not only has none of us even experienced more than one consciousness, but there is no trace of circumstantial evidence of this even happening anywhere in the world” (much more in "What is Life?") -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
