Re: Re: Experiences are not provable because they are private, personal.
ROGER: Hi Bruno Marchal and Stathis, 1. Only entities in spacetime physically exist, and thus can be measured and proven. BRUNO: Too much vague to me. I am OK, and I am not OK, for different reasonable intepretations of what you say here. I doubt something in physics can be proved in physics, about reality. You need a theology or a metaphysics, which needs axioms too. ROGER: Physics is in spacetime, but not physical theories. The former have extension, the latter do not. Ideas or philosophy can be about the physical, but they have no extension in space, so are not themselves physical. ROGER: 2. Experiences exist only in the mind, not in spacetime, because they are not extended in nature. They are subjective. Beyond spacetime. Superphysical. Unproveable to others, but certain to oneself. BRUNO: OK. ROGER: 3. Numbers, being other than oneself, might possibly have experiences, but they cannot share them with us. BRUNO: Number cannot have experiences, per se. They just get involved in complex arithmetical relation which supports a person's life. Only the person is conscious, but the person supervene or on a quite complex clouds of numbers and oracle, in highly complex relationships. ROGER: Right. I was mistaken to say that numbers could have experiences. They are like ideas. Ideas and numbers can thought and in that experienced as thoughts. They can only share descriptions of experiences, not the experiences themselves (or even if those experiences exist). BRUNO: Yes. Like us. And PA and ZF already stay mute when asked about the experience they can have.Their G* (guardian angel, as I call it a long time ago) already explain why they stay mute, as they know that communicating that they have experience will make people believe that they have been programmed to say that. They already try to avoid being treated as zombie, apparently. Bruno Roger rclo...@verizon.net 10/9/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-08, 10:19:35 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment Hi Roger, On 08 Oct 2012, at 16:14, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stathis Papaioannou I would put it that mind is superphysical. Beyond spacetime. Supernatural as a word carries too much baggage. With comp, the natural numbers are supernatural enough. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/8/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stathis Papaioannou Receiver: everything-list@googlegroups.com Time: 2012-10-08, 03:14:29 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On 08/10/2012, at 3:07 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Absolutely not. We know no such thing. Quite the opposite, we know with relative certainty that what we understand of physics provides no possibility of anything other than more physics. There is no hint of any kind that these laws should lead to any such thing as an 'experience' or awareness of any kind. You beg the question 100% and are 100% incapable of seeing that you are doing it. Well, if it's not the laws of physics then it's something supernatural, isn't it? -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en .
Re: Experiences are not provable because they are private, personal.
On 09 Oct 2012, at 12:21, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal and Stathis, 1. Only entities in spacetime physically exist, and thus can be measured and proven. Too much vague to me. I am OK, and I am not OK, for different reasonable intepretations of what you say here. I doubt something in physics can be proved in physics, about reality. You need a theology or a metaphysics, which needs axioms too. 2. Experiences exist only in the mind, not in spacetime, because they are not extended in nature. They are subjective. Beyond spacetime. Superphysical. Unproveable to others, but certain to oneself. OK. 3. Numbers, being other than oneself, might possibly have experiences, but they cannot share them with us. Number cannot have experiences, per se. They just get involved in complex arithmetical relation which supports a person's life. Only the person is conscious, but the person supervene or on a quite complex clouds of numbers and oracle, in highly complex relationships. They can only share descriptions of experiences, not the experiences themselves (or even if those experiences exist). Yes. Like us. And PA and ZF already stay mute when asked about the experience they can have.Their G* (guardian angel, as I call it a long time ago) already explain why they stay mute, as they know that communicating that they have experience will make people believe that they have been programmed to say that. They already try to avoid being treated as zombie, apparently. Bruno Roger rclo...@verizon.net 10/9/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-08, 10:19:35 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment Hi Roger, On 08 Oct 2012, at 16:14, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stathis Papaioannou I would put it that mind is superphysical. Beyond spacetime. Supernatural as a word carries too much baggage. With comp, the natural numbers are supernatural enough. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/8/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stathis Papaioannou Receiver: everything-list@googlegroups.com Time: 2012-10-08, 03:14:29 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On 08/10/2012, at 3:07 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Absolutely not. We know no such thing. Quite the opposite, we know with relative certainty that what we understand of physics provides no possibility of anything other than more physics. There is no hint of any kind that these laws should lead to any such thing as an 'experience' or awareness of any kind. You beg the question 100% and are 100% incapable of seeing that you are doing it. Well, if it's not the laws of physics then it's something supernatural, isn't it? -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
