On 09 Oct 2012, at 12:21, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Bruno Marchal and Stathis,

1. Only entities in spacetime physically exist, and thus can be measured and proven.

Too much vague to me. I am OK, and I am not OK, for different reasonable intepretations of what you say here. I doubt something in physics can be proved in physics, about reality. You need a theology or a metaphysics, which needs axioms too.



2. Experiences exist only in the mind, not in spacetime, because
they are not extended in nature. They are subjective. Beyond spacetime.
   Superphysical. Unproveable to others, but certain to oneself.

OK.




3. Numbers, being other than oneself, might possibly have experiences,
   but they cannot share them with us.

Number cannot have experiences, per se. They just get involved in complex arithmetical relation which supports a person's life. Only the person is conscious, but the person supervene or on a quite complex clouds of numbers and oracle, in highly complex relationships.



They can only share descriptions
   of experiences, not the experiences themselves (or even if those
   experiences exist).

Yes. Like us. And PA and ZF already stay mute when asked about the experience they can have.Their "G*" (guardian angel, as I call it a long time ago) already explain why they stay mute, as they know that communicating that they have experience will make people believe that they have been programmed to say that. They already try to avoid being treated as zombie, apparently.


Bruno





Roger rclo...@verizon.net

10/9/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen


----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-08, 10:19:35
Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment


Hi Roger,

On 08 Oct 2012, at 16:14, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Stathis Papaioannou

I would put it that mind is superphysical. Beyond spacetime.
Supernatural as a word carries too much baggage.

With comp, the natural numbers are supernatural enough.

Bruno




Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/8/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen


----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Stathis Papaioannou
Receiver: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Time: 2012-10-08, 03:14:29
Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment


On 08/10/2012, at 3:07 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

Absolutely not. We know no such thing. Quite the opposite, we know
with relative certainty that what we understand of physics provides
no possibility of anything other than more physics. There is no
hint of any kind that these laws should lead to any such thing as
an 'experience' or awareness of any kind. You beg the question 100%
and are 100% incapable of seeing that you are doing it.

Well, if it's not the laws of physics then it's something
supernatural, isn't it?


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