Re: Marxism and the pursuit of money, sex and power
On Friday, August 31, 2012 8:55:08 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg It's a non-brainer. The Marxist model of man and his government as being saintly and always thinking of the good of the whole flies in the face of reality. Here in the real world, man goes out each day in his basic search for money, sex, and power. Maybe you are more familiar with Marx than I am, but my impression was that his view was not about men being saintly at all. To the contrary, it seems to be all about permanent class struggle and materialism - means of production and all that. He was all about the real world search for money, sex, and power. What Marx said about Capitalism may not have been wrong at all, but what he proposed as a solution didn't seem to be a lasting solution. It isn't often that ideas get half of the world to overthrow their leaders, so I would guess that they must have some pretty compelling reasoning to them and not Pollyanna tropes about man being saintly. Craig Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net javascript: 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - *From:* Craig Weinberg javascript: *Receiver:* everything-list javascript: *Time:* 2012-08-31, 08:28:11 *Subject:* Re: No Chinese Room Necessary On Friday, August 31, 2012 4:14:37 AM UTC-4, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/8/31 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com On Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:55:35 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 8/30/2012 6:35 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:16:14 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi Craig, Umm, ever hear of the concept of Heaven? It sounds very much like a a future society with a perfect anything or that morals were unnecessary. Sure, but when does the Left Wing ever talk about Heaven? Craig Hi Craig, Umm, the Marxists have an analogue... classlesshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classless_society, moneyless, and statelesshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_society social order http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_order structuredhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_and_superstructure upon common ownership http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ownership of the means of productionhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production, as well as a social http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social, politicalhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political and econom**ic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy ideology that aims at the establishment of this social order. When does the Left Wing ever talk about Marxism? Does Dennis Kucinich talk about a stateless social order? Even self described socialists like Bernie Sanders or activists like Michael Moore don't say we must get rid of money and class!. All I have ever heard from progressives is We should pay teachers more and useless businessmen less. and We should stop paying private contractors so much to imprison more and more people on meaningless drug charges. I have hung out with many anarchists, feminists, hippies, and rabid left wing ideologues socially throughout my life and have never - ever - heard anyone mention communism or Marxism in any kind of political context at all. Most of what I know about Marxism has come from Libertarians and Republicans holding up its ghost in effigy. Well you're not living in the right country then... And an anarchist who would not talk about about a classless goal... well cannot be an anarchist which means without hierarchy/authority not without rules, that is anomie. What does where I live have to do with anything? Are you saying that only people who want to see the US paved over and sold to WalMart are real Americans? When I say that people I have known are anarchists I mean that they have anarchic sympathies - not that they advocate a permanent realization of total anarchy. Craig Quentin Craig -- Onward! Stephen http://webpages.charter.net/**stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/-We2MSfPkrkJ. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/uL-e1u4uJA8J. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.comjavascript: .
Re: Re: Marxism and the pursuit of money, sex and power
On Friday, August 31, 2012 9:14:20 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Right, but that's what communism asks you to do in effect. Marx never used the word saintly or giving your life to the Cause, but that emphasis on others rather than self no doubt prompted Ayn Rand's (she was russian, presumably a victim of oppressive communist rule) reactionary paean to the virtues of self-esteen and selfishness. Ayn Rand was the daughter of the owner of a successful pharmacy who had his business confiscated by the Bolsheviks when she was 12. It doesn't take too much to see how that would traumatize anyone, especially someone in her social position (not to stereotype her as a Jewish Russian Princess, but given her sense of pride later in life, I would not guess that she would be any less so as privileged teenager in cosmopolitan St. Petersberg). I think her animus toward communism was more personally driven by the loss of her expected life at the hands of low class peasants than anything else. Of course, I could be projecting - I don't know much about Rand except for reading Atlas Shrugged. I liked the idea of John Galt and all of that. I didn't realize at the time the implications or what was behind her views. Craig Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net javascript: Hi Craig Weinberg 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - *From:* Craig Weinberg javascript: *Receiver:* everything-list javascript: *Time:* 2012-08-31, 09:03:05 *Subject:* Re: Marxism and the pursuit of money, sex and power On Friday, August 31, 2012 8:55:08 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg It's a non-brainer. The Marxist model of man and his government as being saintly and always thinking of the good of the whole flies in the face of reality. Here in the real world, man goes out each day in his basic search for money, sex, and power. Maybe you are more familiar with Marx than I am, but my impression was that his view was not about men being saintly at all. To the contrary, it seems to be all about permanent class struggle and materialism - means of production and all that. He was all about the real world search for money, sex, and power. What Marx said about Capitalism may not have been wrong at all, but what he proposed as a solution didn't seem to be a lasting solution. It isn't often that ideas get half of the world to overthrow their leaders, so I would guess that they must have some pretty compelling reasoning to them and not Pollyanna tropes about man being saintly. Craig Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - *From:* Craig Weinberg *Receiver:* everything-list *Time:* 2012-08-31, 08:28:11 *Subject:* Re: No Chinese Room Necessary On Friday, August 31, 2012 4:14:37 AM UTC-4, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/8/31 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com On Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:55:35 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 8/30/2012 6:35 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:16:14 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi Craig, Umm, ever hear of the concept of Heaven? It sounds very much like a a future society with a perfect anything or that morals were unnecessary. Sure, but when does the Left Wing ever talk about Heaven? Craig Hi Craig, Umm, the Marxists have an analogue... classlesshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classless_society, moneyless, and statelesshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_society social order http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_order structuredhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_and_superstructure upon common ownership http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ownership of the means of productionhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production, as well as a social http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social, politicalhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political and econom**ic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy ideology that aims at the establishment of this social order. When does the Left Wing ever talk about Marxism? Does Dennis Kucinich talk about a stateless social order? Even self described socialists like Bernie Sanders or activists like Michael Moore don't say we must get rid of money and class!. All I have ever heard from progressives is We should pay teachers more and useless businessmen less. and We should stop paying private contractors so much to imprison more and more people on meaningless drug charges. I have hung out with many anarchists, feminists, hippies, and rabid left wing ideologues socially throughout my life and have never - ever - heard anyone mention communism or Marxism in any kind of political context at all. Most of what I know about Marxism has
Re: Re: Marxism and the pursuit of money, sex and power
The L-Curve: A Graph of the US Income Distribution http://www.lcurve.org/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
