On Friday, August 31, 2012 8:55:08 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:
>
>  Hi Craig Weinberg 
>  
> It's a non-brainer.
>  
> The Marxist model of man and his government as being saintly and always
> thinking of the good of the whole flies in the face of reality. Here 
> in the real world, man goes out each day in his basic search for money, 
> sex, and power.
>

Maybe you are more familiar with Marx than I am, but my impression was that 
his view was not about men being saintly at all. To the contrary, it seems 
to be all about permanent class struggle and materialism - "means of 
production" and all that. He was all about the real world search for money, 
sex, and power. What Marx said about Capitalism may not have been wrong at 
all, but what he proposed as a solution didn't seem to be a lasting 
solution. It isn't often that ideas get half of the world to overthrow 
their leaders, so I would guess that they must have some pretty compelling 
reasoning to them and not Pollyanna tropes about man being saintly.

Craig

 

>  
>  
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net <javascript:>
> 8/31/2012 
> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
> so that everything could function."
>
> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
> *From:* Craig Weinberg <javascript:> 
> *Receiver:* everything-list <javascript:> 
> *Time:* 2012-08-31, 08:28:11
> *Subject:* Re: No Chinese Room Necessary
>
>  
>
> On Friday, August 31, 2012 4:14:37 AM UTC-4, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 
>>
>>
>>
>> 2012/8/31 Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:55:35 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: 
>>>>
>>>>  On 8/30/2012 6:35 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:16:14 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: 
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Craig,
>>>>>
>>>>>     Umm, ever hear of the concept of "Heaven"? It sounds very much 
>>>>> like a "a future society with a perfect anything or that morals were 
>>>>> unnecessary".
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sure, but when does the Left Wing ever talk about Heaven?
>>>>
>>>> Craig 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Craig,
>>>>
>>>>     Umm, the Marxists have an analogue... " 
>>>> classless<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classless_society>, 
>>>> moneyless, and stateless<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_society>
>>>>  social order <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_order> 
>>>> structured<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_and_superstructure>
>>>>  upon common ownership <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ownership> of 
>>>> the means of production<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production>, 
>>>> as well as a social <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social>, 
>>>> political<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political>
>>>>  and econom**ic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy> ideology that 
>>>> aims at the establishment of this social order".
>>>>
>>>
>>> When does the Left Wing ever talk about Marxism? Does Dennis Kucinich 
>>> talk about a stateless social order? Even self described socialists like 
>>> Bernie Sanders or activists like Michael Moore don't say "we must get rid 
>>> of money and class!". All I have ever heard from progressives is "We should 
>>> pay teachers more and useless businessmen less." and "We should stop paying 
>>> private contractors so much to imprison more and more people on meaningless 
>>> drug charges". I have hung out with many anarchists, feminists, hippies, 
>>> and rabid left wing ideologues socially throughout my life and have never - 
>>> ever - heard anyone mention communism or Marxism in any kind of political 
>>> context at all. Most of what I know about Marxism has come from 
>>> Libertarians and Republicans holding up its ghost in effigy.
>>>
>>
>> Well you're not living in the right country then... And an anarchist who 
>> would not talk about about a classless goal... well cannot be an 
>> "anarchist" which means "without hierarchy/authority" not without rules, 
>> that is anomie.
>>
>
> What does where I live have to do with anything? Are you saying that only 
> people who want to see the US paved over and sold to WalMart are real 
> Americans? When I say that people I have known are anarchists I mean that 
> they have anarchic sympathies - not that they advocate a permanent 
> realization of total anarchy. 
>
> Craig
>
>  
>> Quentin
>>  
>>
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>  -- 
>>>> Onward!
>>>>
>>>> Stephen
>>>> http://webpages.charter.net/**stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html 
>>>> <http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
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>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
>>
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