Re: are black holes actually misunderstood wormholes?
On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 12:01:30 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 6:51 PM, Lawrence Crowell < > goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com > wrote: > >> *> My tendency is to say that wormholes do not exist.* > > > It seems to me if wormholes existed we should expect to see as many White > Holes as Black Holes and they should be easier to detect than Black Holes > too, and yet nobody has ever seen a White Hole. But even if they don’t > exist now maybe we can build one if the laws of physics don’t forbid it. > > >> *>There are problems with these types of solutions. The biggest is they >> requires a source term that has negative energy* > > The Casimir effect has demonstrated that the vacuum between 2 conductive > planes that are very very close to each other contains negative energy > density. > The energy between the plates is just lower than the vacuum outside. It is negative if you set the vacuum energy outside equal zero. LC -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: are black holes actually misunderstood wormholes?
On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 3:38 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: >> >> The Casimir effect has demonstrated that the vacuum between 2 conductive >> planes that are very very close to each other contains negative energy >> density. > > > * >Not exactly. There is just less positive energy density than outside > the plates. I don't think that's equivalent to the negative energy density > needed to keep a wormhole open.* > If you talk about negative energy you've got to say negative with respect to what. If zero isn't the energy in empty space far from any matter what is zero? In gauge forces the important thing is not the absolute value its the difference, that's why a bird can safely perch on one high voltage power line but not on 2 if they are at different voltages. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: are black holes actually misunderstood wormholes?
Listening in on the direct signals -- e.g. the gravity waves themselves -- that
are produced in these extreme merger events is probably our best window into
probing into what is actually occuring to the dynamically interacting forces at
these energy scales.
No atom smasher we could build can match the scale of say two neutron stars
merging into a black hole.
I think astronomy, and specifically and especially gravity wave astronomy is
the most promising future direction of experimentation and falsification of
dead branches of enquiry in the realm of high energy physics.
I suspect most agree that as LIGO type detectors improve these more subtle
harmonics, overtones, echoes etc. that may be detected in the signal are going
to become the basis for evaluation (or re-evaluation) of our current
understanding.
Your speculation that we may become absorbed into inner world's within our own
minds may turn out to be true, it certainly appears that we are becoming sucked
into our devices and the "worlds" within them and that a direct neural
interface would lead to a whole new level of immersive experience.
But it could be a phase of infatuation that may play out and reach some maximum
degree of penetration, in much the same way as most people not becoming
addicted to opiods for example... though many become totally lost to the
addiction.
Chris
On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 5:15 PM, Lawrence
Crowell wrote: I think quantum gravitation
theories might be put to some observational tests this way.
I would not worry about wormholes and any possible interstellar future. Kip
Thorne aside, and wormholes are sort of "his second baby" after LIGO, I doubt
they exist and further even if they existed we would unlikely ever enter one.
The current trajectory of technology is to find better ways of going nowhere
ever faster. Notice how people everywhere sit or wander around looking at smart
phones. I suspect these will communicate directly with the brain before
terribly long. We are not going into outer-space, but more into virtual worlds
of inner space. Digitally enhanced mental perceptions are coming, and Homo
sapiens I suspect will becomes completely lost in it. It could be that the
majority of people who will ever go into outer-space have already done so.
LC
On Monday, June 25, 2018 at 7:44:29 PM UTC-5, cdemorsella wrote:
Thanks for your comments, Sci-fi fans will be disappointed.
I was intrigued by the mention of these potential echoes contained within the
off the scale intense ring down phase of a merger and also by what that would
imply, if echoes are actually discovered to exist within the final moments of
these extreme events.
Gravitational wave astronomy is in it's infancy and as instruments improve, my
hope is that it can help speed forward movement in the quest for a unified
theory. After all gravity waves are a direct sensing of the primary evolving
dynamics of extreme systems in which our current best theories fall apart and
begin spitting out infinities.
Chris
On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 3:51 PM, Lawrence Crowell
wrote: My tendency is to say that wormholes do not exist. There are problems
with these types of solutions. The biggest is they requires a source term that
has negative energy or T^{00} < 0. This would mean the quantum field that
defines this source is not bounded below. This means an infinite well spring of
radiation can exist.
These types of spacetimes have other oddities. A wormhole can have one of its
openings boosted or accelerated out and then accelerated back so the wormhole
has closed timelike curves. This means a quantum state could be sent into the
wormhole and it would return prior to then. This means a quantum state is
duplicated. This is a non-unitary process forbidden by quantum mechanics. So I
see this as another obstruction to the idea of wormholes.
The ring down, and I think as well the peak, of gravitational radiation may
carry information about the quantum nature of black holes. Certainly if
wormholes collide the quantum information of the wormhole would be contained in
these signals or ring down. These types of data will likely require a
spacebased system such as e-LISA in order to capture so called gravitational
memory. This is where the configuration of test masses is different after the
passage of the gravitational wave. The earliest projected launch date ESA will
loft this system is 2034. We have a bit of a wait.
LC
On Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 3:01:53 PM UTC-5, cdemorsella wrote:
As LIGO increases its sensitivity it is entering a domain in which its
instruments should be able to detect theorized ring down phase echoes (this is
the very last portion of a merging event of massive bodies that produces a
rapidly increasing frequency of waves that lead up to the moment of merging, as
the two merging objects undergo a final increasingly tight cycle of rapidly
narrowing orbits right before merging)
This increased sensitivity
Re: are black holes actually misunderstood wormholes?
On 6/27/2018 10:01 AM, John Clark wrote: />There are problems with these types of solutions. The biggest is they requires a source term that has negative energy/ The Casimir effect has demonstrated that the vacuum between 2 conductive planes that are very very close to each other contains negative energy density. Not exactly. There is just less positive energy density than outside the plates. I don't think that's equivalent to the negative energy density needed to keep a wormhole open. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: are black holes actually misunderstood wormholes?
On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 6:51 PM, Lawrence Crowell < goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote: > *> My tendency is to say that wormholes do not exist.* It seems to me if wormholes existed we should expect to see as many White Holes as Black Holes and they should be easier to detect than Black Holes too, and yet nobody has ever seen a White Hole. But even if they don’t exist now maybe we can build one if the laws of physics don’t forbid it. > *>There are problems with these types of solutions. The biggest is they > requires a source term that has negative energy* The Casimir effect has demonstrated that the vacuum between 2 conductive planes that are very very close to each other contains negative energy density. > *> A wormhole can have one of its openings boosted or accelerated out and > then accelerated back so the wormhole has closed timelike curves. This > means a quantum state could be sent into the wormhole and it would return > prior to then.* If Many Worlds is true then travel into the past wouldn’t necessarily create a logical paradox; I go back to yesterday and shoot myself in the head, as soon as I turn my time machine on this entire universe comes to a dead end so nobody is around to see a paradox, but a new universe is created and all the people in this new universe see is somebody who must be my twin brother has just shot me in the head. Odd perhaps but there is nothing paradoxical about that. > *> This means a quantum state is duplicated. * The Black Hole information paradox makes me wonder if the quantum no cloning theorem is really true in all circumstances, maybe it needs to be modified. Maybe you can clone a quantum state but not if both are in the same Everett universe so nobody can ever observe the cloning. > *> The ring down, and I think as well the peak, of gravitational radiation > may carry information about the quantum nature of black holes.* We could also learn a lot by studying the ring down caused by the merger of 2 Neutron Stars because that is the most extreme condition matter can undergo. The result of the Neutron Star merger that LIGO recently observed produced either the most massive Neutron Star ever observed or the least massive Black Hole ever observed, a Black Hole fate seems a little more likely but if we had just a bit more detail in the signal we’d know for sure. It seems to indicate that a non-spinning Neutron Star can’t be more than 2.1 solar masses, but if it was spinning fast enough a Neutron Star could get up to 2.7 solar masses, however if its more than 2.7 it can’t be anything but a Black Hole. The LHC hasn’t found anything since the Higgs and particle accelerators haven’t found anything surprising in almost 50 years, they may have told us all they can. To find more fundamental physics we may have to look to things like LIGO, neutrino detectors, Dark Matter detectors, and telescopes. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: are black holes actually misunderstood wormholes?
I think quantum gravitation theories might be put to some observational
tests this way.
I would not worry about wormholes and any possible interstellar future. Kip
Thorne aside, and wormholes are sort of "his second baby" after LIGO, I
doubt they exist and further even if they existed we would unlikely ever
enter one. The current trajectory of technology is to find better ways of
going nowhere ever faster. Notice how people everywhere sit or wander
around looking at smart phones. I suspect these will communicate directly
with the brain before terribly long. We are not going into outer-space, but
more into virtual worlds of inner space. Digitally enhanced mental
perceptions are coming, and Homo sapiens I suspect will becomes completely
lost in it. It could be that the majority of people who will ever go into
outer-space have already done so.
LC
On Monday, June 25, 2018 at 7:44:29 PM UTC-5, cdemorsella wrote:
>
> Thanks for your comments, Sci-fi fans will be disappointed.
>
> I was intrigued by the mention of these potential echoes contained within
> the off the scale intense ring down phase of a merger and also by what that
> would imply, if echoes are actually discovered to exist within the final
> moments of these extreme events.
>
> Gravitational wave astronomy is in it's infancy and as instruments
> improve, my hope is that it can help speed forward movement in the quest
> for a unified theory. After all gravity waves are a direct sensing of the
> primary evolving dynamics of extreme systems in which our current best
> theories fall apart and begin spitting out infinities.
>
> Chris
>
> On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 3:51 PM, Lawrence Crowell
> > wrote:
> My tendency is to say that wormholes do not exist. There are problems with
> these types of solutions. The biggest is they requires a source term that
> has negative energy or T^{00} < 0. This would mean the quantum field that
> defines this source is not bounded below. This means an infinite well
> spring of radiation can exist.
>
> These types of spacetimes have other oddities. A wormhole can have one of
> its openings boosted or accelerated out and then accelerated back so the
> wormhole has closed timelike curves. This means a quantum state could be
> sent into the wormhole and it would return prior to then. This means a
> quantum state is duplicated. This is a non-unitary process forbidden by
> quantum mechanics. So I see this as another obstruction to the idea of
> wormholes.
>
> The ring down, and I think as well the peak, of gravitational radiation
> may carry information about the quantum nature of black holes. Certainly if
> wormholes collide the quantum information of the wormhole would be
> contained in these signals or ring down. These types of data will likely
> require a spacebased system such as e-LISA in order to capture so called
> gravitational memory. This is where the configuration of test masses is
> different after the passage of the gravitational wave. The earliest
> projected launch date ESA will loft this system is 2034. We have a bit of a
> wait.
>
> LC
>
> On Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 3:01:53 PM UTC-5, cdemorsella wrote:
>
> As LIGO increases its sensitivity it is entering a domain in which its
> instruments should be able to detect theorized ring down phase echoes (this
> is the very last portion of a merging event of massive bodies that produces
> a rapidly increasing frequency of waves that lead up to the moment of
> merging, as the two merging objects undergo a final increasingly tight
> cycle of rapidly narrowing orbits right before merging)
>
> This increased sensitivity shouldd enable it to discoverif these
> hypothetical echoes if they actually are being produced by the observed
> event.
>
> If such echoes are discovered in these signals that would have major
> implications for cosmology and would be evidence for the actual existence
> of wormholes in our universe.
>
>
> Quoting some selected paragraphs, from a Scientific American article:
>
> "When two wormholes collide, they could produce ripples in space-time
> that ricochet off themselves. Future instruments could detect these
> gravitational “echoes,” providing evidence that these hypothetical tunnels
> through space-time actually exist, a new paper suggests.
> ...
>
> To resolve this so-called black hole information paradox
> ,
>
> some physicists have suggested that event horizons don’t exist. Instead of
> abysses from which nothing can return, black holes actually could be a host
> of speculative black-hole-like objects that lack event horizons, such as
> boson stars, gravastars, fuzzballs and even wormholes, which were theorized
> by Albert Einstein and physicist Nathan Rosen decades ago.
>
>
> In a 2016 study in the journal Physical Review Letters, physicists
> hypothesized
>
Re: are black holes actually misunderstood wormholes?
Thanks for your comments, Sci-fi fans will be disappointed.
I was intrigued by the mention of these potential echoes contained within the
off the scale intense ring down phase of a merger and also by what that would
imply, if echoes are actually discovered to exist within the final moments of
these extreme events.
Gravitational wave astronomy is in it's infancy and as instruments improve, my
hope is that it can help speed forward movement in the quest for a unified
theory. After all gravity waves are a direct sensing of the primary evolving
dynamics of extreme systems in which our current best theories fall apart and
begin spitting out infinities.
Chris
On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 3:51 PM, Lawrence
Crowell wrote: My tendency is to say that
wormholes do not exist. There are problems with these types of solutions. The
biggest is they requires a source term that has negative energy or T^{00} < 0.
This would mean the quantum field that defines this source is not bounded
below. This means an infinite well spring of radiation can exist.
These types of spacetimes have other oddities. A wormhole can have one of its
openings boosted or accelerated out and then accelerated back so the wormhole
has closed timelike curves. This means a quantum state could be sent into the
wormhole and it would return prior to then. This means a quantum state is
duplicated. This is a non-unitary process forbidden by quantum mechanics. So I
see this as another obstruction to the idea of wormholes.
The ring down, and I think as well the peak, of gravitational radiation may
carry information about the quantum nature of black holes. Certainly if
wormholes collide the quantum information of the wormhole would be contained in
these signals or ring down. These types of data will likely require a
spacebased system such as e-LISA in order to capture so called gravitational
memory. This is where the configuration of test masses is different after the
passage of the gravitational wave. The earliest projected launch date ESA will
loft this system is 2034. We have a bit of a wait.
LC
On Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 3:01:53 PM UTC-5, cdemorsella wrote:
As LIGO increases its sensitivity it is entering a domain in which its
instruments should be able to detect theorized ring down phase echoes (this is
the very last portion of a merging event of massive bodies that produces a
rapidly increasing frequency of waves that lead up to the moment of merging, as
the two merging objects undergo a final increasingly tight cycle of rapidly
narrowing orbits right before merging)
This increased sensitivity shouldd enable it to discoverif these hypothetical
echoes if they actually are being produced by the observed event.
If such echoes are discovered in these signals that would have major
implications for cosmology and would be evidence for the actual existence of
wormholes in our universe.
Quoting some selected paragraphs, from a Scientific American article:
"When two wormholes collide, they could produce ripples in space-time that
ricochet off themselves. Future instruments could detect these gravitational
“echoes,” providing evidence that these hypothetical tunnels through space-time
actually exist, a new paper suggests
To resolve this so-called black hole information paradox, some physicists have
suggested that event horizons don’t exist. Instead of abysses from which
nothing can return, black holes actually could be a host of speculative
black-hole-like objects that lack event horizons, such as boson stars,
gravastars, fuzzballs and even wormholes, which were theorized by Albert
Einstein and physicist Nathan Rosen decades ago.
In a 2016 study in the journal Physical Review Letters, physicists hypothesized
that if two wormholes collided, they would produce gravitational waves very
similar to those generated from merging black holes. The only difference in the
signal would be in the last phase of the merger, called the ringdown, when the
newly combined black hole or wormhole relaxes into its final state
In the paper, published in January in the journal Physical Review D, the team
of physicists from Belgium and Spain analyzed wormholes that rotate, which are
more realistic than the non-spinning variety studied in the 2016 work. They
calculated what the resulting gravitational-wave signal would look like if the
wormholes merged.
Because the strength of the signal drops during the ringdown, that section of
the signal would be too weak for LIGO’s current configuration to detect. But
that could change in the future, as researchers continue to upgrade and
fine-tune the instrument, the researchers said.
“By the time we are running at full design sensitivity, I believe it may be
possible to resolve the ringdown phase where these echoes are predicted to be,”
said Stuver, who’s also a member of the LIGO team."
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
Re: are black holes actually misunderstood wormholes?
My tendency is to say that wormholes do not exist. There are problems with
these types of solutions. The biggest is they requires a source term that
has negative energy or T^{00} < 0. This would mean the quantum field that
defines this source is not bounded below. This means an infinite well
spring of radiation can exist.
These types of spacetimes have other oddities. A wormhole can have one of
its openings boosted or accelerated out and then accelerated back so the
wormhole has closed timelike curves. This means a quantum state could be
sent into the wormhole and it would return prior to then. This means a
quantum state is duplicated. This is a non-unitary process forbidden by
quantum mechanics. So I see this as another obstruction to the idea of
wormholes.
The ring down, and I think as well the peak, of gravitational radiation may
carry information about the quantum nature of black holes. Certainly if
wormholes collide the quantum information of the wormhole would be
contained in these signals or ring down. These types of data will likely
require a spacebased system such as e-LISA in order to capture so called
gravitational memory. This is where the configuration of test masses is
different after the passage of the gravitational wave. The earliest
projected launch date ESA will loft this system is 2034. We have a bit of a
wait.
LC
On Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 3:01:53 PM UTC-5, cdemorsella wrote:
>
> As LIGO increases its sensitivity it is entering a domain in which its
> instruments should be able to detect theorized ring down phase echoes (this
> is the very last portion of a merging event of massive bodies that produces
> a rapidly increasing frequency of waves that lead up to the moment of
> merging, as the two merging objects undergo a final increasingly tight
> cycle of rapidly narrowing orbits right before merging)
>
> This increased sensitivity shouldd enable it to discoverif these
> hypothetical echoes if they actually are being produced by the observed
> event.
>
> If such echoes are discovered in these signals that would have major
> implications for cosmology and would be evidence for the actual existence
> of wormholes in our universe.
>
>
> Quoting some selected paragraphs, from a Scientific American article:
>
> "When two wormholes collide, they could produce ripples in space-time
> that ricochet off themselves. Future instruments could detect these
> gravitational “echoes,” providing evidence that these hypothetical tunnels
> through space-time actually exist, a new paper suggests.
> ...
>
> To resolve this so-called black hole information paradox
> ,
>
> some physicists have suggested that event horizons don’t exist. Instead of
> abysses from which nothing can return, black holes actually could be a host
> of speculative black-hole-like objects that lack event horizons, such as
> boson stars, gravastars, fuzzballs and even wormholes, which were theorized
> by Albert Einstein and physicist Nathan Rosen decades ago.
>
>
> In a 2016 study in the journal Physical Review Letters, physicists
> hypothesized
> that
> if two wormholes collided, they would produce gravitational waves very
> similar to those generated from merging black holes. The only difference in
> the signal would be in the last phase of the merger, called the ringdown,
> when the newly combined black hole or wormhole relaxes into its final state.
> ...
>
> In the paper
> ,
> published in January in the journal Physical Review D, the team of
> physicists from Belgium and Spain analyzed wormholes that rotate, which are
> more realistic than the non-spinning variety studied in the 2016 work. They
> calculated what the resulting gravitational-wave signal would look like if
> the wormholes merged.
>
> Because the strength of the signal drops during the ringdown, that section
> of the signal would be too weak for LIGO’s current configuration to detect.
> But that could change in the future, as researchers continue to upgrade and
> fine-tune the instrument, the researchers said.
>
>
> “By the time we are running at full design sensitivity, I believe it may
> be possible to resolve the ringdown phase where these echoes are predicted
> to be,” said Stuver, who’s also a member of the LIGO team."
>
>
>
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: are black holes actually misunderstood wormholes?
As LIGO increases its sensitivity it is entering a domain in which its instruments should be able to detect theorized ring down phase echoes (this is the very last portion of a merging event of massive bodies that produces a rapidly increasing frequency of waves that lead up to the moment of merging, as the two merging objects undergo a final increasingly tight cycle of rapidly narrowing orbits right before merging) This increased sensitivity shouldd enable it to discoverif these hypothetical echoes if they actually are being produced by the observed event. If such echoes are discovered in these signals that would have major implications for cosmology and would be evidence for the actual existence of wormholes in our universe. Quoting some selected paragraphs, from a Scientific American article: "When two wormholes collide, they could produce ripples in space-time that ricochet off themselves. Future instruments could detect these gravitational “echoes,” providing evidence that these hypothetical tunnels through space-time actually exist, a new paper suggests To resolve this so-called black hole information paradox, some physicists have suggested that event horizons don’t exist. Instead of abysses from which nothing can return, black holes actually could be a host of speculative black-hole-like objects that lack event horizons, such as boson stars, gravastars, fuzzballs and even wormholes, which were theorized by Albert Einstein and physicist Nathan Rosen decades ago. In a 2016 study in the journal Physical Review Letters, physicists hypothesized that if two wormholes collided, they would produce gravitational waves very similar to those generated from merging black holes. The only difference in the signal would be in the last phase of the merger, called the ringdown, when the newly combined black hole or wormhole relaxes into its final state In the paper, published in January in the journal Physical Review D, the team of physicists from Belgium and Spain analyzed wormholes that rotate, which are more realistic than the non-spinning variety studied in the 2016 work. They calculated what the resulting gravitational-wave signal would look like if the wormholes merged. Because the strength of the signal drops during the ringdown, that section of the signal would be too weak for LIGO’s current configuration to detect. But that could change in the future, as researchers continue to upgrade and fine-tune the instrument, the researchers said. “By the time we are running at full design sensitivity, I believe it may be possible to resolve the ringdown phase where these echoes are predicted to be,” said Stuver, who’s also a member of the LIGO team." -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
