Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[Pierz]

Energy, John Mikes, is just a measure of change in a physical system with time. 
Or change in arrangements of spacetime in the time direction. And what is mass? 
It's just changes in spacetime in the space direction(s). And it turns out each 
can be rotated to become the other. What is spacetime? Well you got me there. 
Bruno will tell you :)

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[John Clark]

On Tue, Feb 16, 2016  spudboy100 via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:


> ​> ​
> When I think of energy, I think of movement, or flow.


​That's one form of energy, and the amount of energy depends on the mass of
the moving object and its velocity but it turns out that of the two
velocity is more important; double the mass and the energy doubles but
double the velocity and you have 4 times the energy.


> ​> ​
> or flow


Flow is a bit different.
​The ability of a flow of
air to do work on a window, that is to say cause damage to the window, ​
is proportional to the cube of the wind speed not the square.
​ ​
It's true that if you double the speed each individual oxygen and nitrogen
molecule would have 4 times the energy, but you'd have 2 times as many
molecules pass through a unit area in the same amount of time and twice as
many particles each with 4 times the energy makes 8. So a 126 mph wind
would produce twice as much damage as a 100 mph wind and a 144 mph wind 3
times as much and a 159 mph 4 times as much.

Or you can think about it this way, if the wind is gentle it will exert a
force on the window, but it's work that causes damage not force, and work
is force over a distance. The gentle wind does not move or distort the
window so no work is done on it and it suffers no damage.  A faster wind
will move the window, and that means it will do work on it, and that means
it will shatter it.

​> ​
When I think of matter, I think of bound things like atoms or molecules,
where the flow is very slow.

​Air is made of molecules but they are not moving slowly. In a box of air
at room temperature the molecules in the box are moving at about ​1,200

​miles per hour, but the molecules are all moving in different directions.
For the energy in that box to actually do something, for it to do work, the
molecules must move in the same direction, and there are ways to do that
with heat engines but the second law of thermodynamics tells us you can
never do that with 100% efficiency, some of the molecules will always be
moving in the wrong direction and energy will be wasted.  ​

 John K Clark

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

You might be wasting keyboard time in explaining all this to me? However, I am 
guessing that the way we all use the word, energy, is that we may be meaning 
vastly different things. The phrase from physics "when matter uncoupled from 
energy of the Big Bang," Or should we be referring to Carnot cycles, or Watts, 
or micro-Kelvan's? When I think of energy, I think of movement, or flow. When I 
think of matter, I think of bound things like atoms or molecules, where the 
flow is very slow. John, if you need to face-palm yourself and move on from my 
questionings, please do so, as life can be aggravating, enough.



-Original Message-
From: John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Feb 14, 2016 12:54 pm
Subject: Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!







On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 9:34 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List 
<everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:


​> ​
You know, I have never heard a decent definition of what energy is? I learnt in 
grade school was that energy was the ability to do work.



​You need energy to do work but you can never use all the energy you have to do 
work no matter how good your technology is, much of it is always wasted. With 
today's machines usually less than 40% of the energy can do work; electric 
motors do better than that but you waste a lot of energy converting heat or 
motion or sunlight into electricity. 

 

​> ​
Yah! Now that sounds really, scientific, not. I refined the definition, to be 
"matter in motion."



​The energy of motion is half of the mass of the matter times the velocity of 
motion squared. If it's at rest it still has energy, it's the mass times the 
speed of light squared. ​




​  John K Clark​
 








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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[John Mikes]

Reassuring to read excellently educated scientists talk about
hypo(thetical) items using other hypo(thetical) names to explain the
unexplainables. The outstanding post came from Russell, who referred to
theoretical texts of other scientists (the rest spoke for themselves) -
however fell into the trap of the "famos" E=m.c^2 of which - reasonably -
only the '^' makes sense (I take the '2' also as a human derived
mathematical wonder in my agnosticism).
Human ingenuity built up a system (called 'Nature') that WORKS, in view of
it's own right, technology is applicable, we live in some 'civilized' ways
and have food etc. from the perceived 'natural' resources.
Just do not ask "WHAT IS ENERGY"?

(BTW I was careless lately to volunteer a solution to that - do not argue
FOR it though - it comes with my hypothesis of the proto-world - the
Entirety - in which everything (literally) coincides with everything in
equilibrium with - well - everything. When such coincidence accumulates too
many too similar items the equilibrium changes into 'complexity' what - in
some cases - we call a UNIVERSE, (including this,our own one) with a
tendency to return into the equilibrium state (reducing the complexity) by
dissipation of the irregularly accumulated 'similars'. Such tendency is
what I called (past tense) energy in our universe-system (physics). By the
vision of 'physical' dissipation (e.g. black hole theory) the constituents
of the 'universe(s)' return into the well equilibrated Entirety by such
tendency - the universe-related denomination
in our physics may be called 'energy'.
It does not refer only to materialistically physical items since a complete
imagintion of the Entirety is way above our head (and it's content).
Please, don't ask me for similarly fantasy-laden explanations about
'mass','time' etc.

Now I joined the line of the self-expressing posters (vs Russell's wisdom).
John Mikes


On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 5:46 PM, Russell Standish <li...@hpcoders.com.au>
wrote:

> The best definition I've heard, which I ascribe to Vic Stenger, is
> that it is what is conserved when a physical system is translated in
> the time dimension. This comes from the Noether theorem.
>
> Of course, relativity changes this a bit, since there is no longer a
> unique time dimension. In relativity, what is conserved is a 4-vector
> when the system is translated in spacetime. Conventionally we call
> that vector the "mass-energy-momentum" vector. The magnitude of that
> vector is just the rest mass of the system, and that is an intrinsic
> property of the system. E=mc^2 is just a famous equation referring to
> the fact that components of a vector change when you change the
> coordinate system (which depends on the observer) - much like the
> width and height of a 2D object change into each other as you rotate
> the x-y axes of the coordinate system.
>
> Cheers
>
> On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 09:34:09AM -0500, spudboy100 via Everything List
> wrote:
> > You know, I have never heard a decent definition of what energy is? I
> learnt in grade school was that energy was the ability to do work. Yah! Now
> that sounds really, scientific, not. I refined the definition, to be
> "matter in motion." Anyone have a better definition? "It takes energy.."
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Terren Suydam <terren.suy...@gmail.com>
> > To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
> > Sent: Sat, Feb 13, 2016 9:47 pm
> > Subject: Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!
> >
> >
> >
> > Great, but what is the specific way in which mass is converted into the
> energy required to produce gravitational waves?  When planetary orbits
> decay, kinetic energy is lost... No mass is converted.
> > On Feb 13, 2016 1:20 PM, "John Clark" <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Terren Suydam <terren.suy...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ​> ​
> > Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses, which was
> converted into gravitational waves... how?  Fusion and fission are easy
> examples of mass to energy conversion - so what's the specific interaction
> here according to theory?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ​Einstein found in General Relativity a new law of nature, he said it
> takes energy to make gravitational waves and that an accelerating mass
> produces gravitational waves, just as Maxwell said a accelerating charged
> particle makes a electromagnetic wave. Normally this effect is far too
> small to be important and can be ignored, but when it's something as
> massive as a black hole and its vibrating at almost the speed of light as
> it

Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[Russell Standish]

The best definition I've heard, which I ascribe to Vic Stenger, is
that it is what is conserved when a physical system is translated in
the time dimension. This comes from the Noether theorem.

Of course, relativity changes this a bit, since there is no longer a
unique time dimension. In relativity, what is conserved is a 4-vector
when the system is translated in spacetime. Conventionally we call
that vector the "mass-energy-momentum" vector. The magnitude of that
vector is just the rest mass of the system, and that is an intrinsic
property of the system. E=mc^2 is just a famous equation referring to
the fact that components of a vector change when you change the
coordinate system (which depends on the observer) - much like the
width and height of a 2D object change into each other as you rotate
the x-y axes of the coordinate system.

Cheers

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 09:34:09AM -0500, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
> You know, I have never heard a decent definition of what energy is? I learnt 
> in grade school was that energy was the ability to do work. Yah! Now that 
> sounds really, scientific, not. I refined the definition, to be "matter in 
> motion." Anyone have a better definition? "It takes energy.."
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Terren Suydam <terren.suy...@gmail.com>
> To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Sat, Feb 13, 2016 9:47 pm
> Subject: Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!
> 
> 
> 
> Great, but what is the specific way in which mass is converted into the 
> energy required to produce gravitational waves?  When planetary orbits decay, 
> kinetic energy is lost... No mass is converted.
> On Feb 13, 2016 1:20 PM, "John Clark" <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Terren Suydam <terren.suy...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​> ​
> Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses, which was converted 
> into gravitational waves... how?  Fusion and fission are easy examples of 
> mass to energy conversion - so what's the specific interaction here according 
> to theory?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​Einstein found in General Relativity a new law of nature, he said it takes 
> energy to make gravitational waves and that an accelerating mass produces 
> gravitational waves, just as Maxwell said a accelerating charged particle 
> makes a electromagnetic wave. Normally this effect is far too small to be 
> important and can be ignored, but when it's something as massive as a black 
> hole and its vibrating at almost the speed of light as it tries to become 
> spherical we now know that gravity waves can not be ignored and Einstein was 
> right. General Relativity has passed its most stringent test yet and passed 
> it with flying colors! 
> 
>  John K Clark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> -- 
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-- 


Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Senior Research Fellowhpco...@hpcoders.com.au
Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au


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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

You know, I have never heard a decent definition of what energy is? I learnt in 
grade school was that energy was the ability to do work. Yah! Now that sounds 
really, scientific, not. I refined the definition, to be "matter in motion." 
Anyone have a better definition? "It takes energy.."



-Original Message-
From: Terren Suydam <terren.suy...@gmail.com>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Feb 13, 2016 9:47 pm
Subject: Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!



Great, but what is the specific way in which mass is converted into the energy 
required to produce gravitational waves?  When planetary orbits decay, kinetic 
energy is lost... No mass is converted.
On Feb 13, 2016 1:20 PM, "John Clark" <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Terren Suydam <terren.suy...@gmail.com> wrote:





​> ​
Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses, which was converted 
into gravitational waves... how?  Fusion and fission are easy examples of mass 
to energy conversion - so what's the specific interaction here according to 
theory?




​Einstein found in General Relativity a new law of nature, he said it takes 
energy to make gravitational waves and that an accelerating mass produces 
gravitational waves, just as Maxwell said a accelerating charged particle makes 
a electromagnetic wave. Normally this effect is far too small to be important 
and can be ignored, but when it's something as massive as a black hole and its 
vibrating at almost the speed of light as it tries to become spherical we now 
know that gravity waves can not be ignored and Einstein was right. General 
Relativity has passed its most stringent test yet and passed it with flying 
colors! 

 John K Clark







 


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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[John Clark]

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 9:34 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

​> ​
> You know, I have never heard a decent definition of what energy is? I
> learnt in grade school was that energy was the ability to do work.


​You need energy to do work but you can never use all the energy you have
to do work no matter how good your technology is, much of it is always
wasted. With today's machines usually less than 40% of the energy can do
work; electric motors do better than that but you waste a lot of energy
converting heat or motion or sunlight into electricity.


> ​> ​
> Yah! Now that sounds really, scientific, not. I refined the definition, to
> be "matter in motion."


​The energy of motion is half of the mass of the matter times the velocity
of motion squared. If it's at rest it still has energy, it's the mass times
the speed of light squared. ​

​  John K Clark​

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[John Clark]

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Terren Suydam 
wrote:

​> ​
> Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses, which was
> converted into gravitational waves... how?  Fusion and fission are easy
> examples of mass to energy conversion - so what's the specific interaction
> here according to theory?
>

​Einstein found in General Relativity a new law of nature, he said it takes
energy to make gravitational waves and that an accelerating mass produces
gravitational waves, just as Maxwell said a accelerating charged particle
makes a electromagnetic wave. Normally this effect is far too small to be
important and can be ignored, but when it's something as massive as a black
hole and its vibrating at almost the speed of light as it tries to become
spherical we now know that gravity waves can not be ignored and Einstein
was right. General Relativity has passed its most stringent test yet and
passed it with flying colors!

 John K Clark

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[Terren Suydam]

Great, but what is the specific way in which mass is converted into the
energy required to produce gravitational waves?  When planetary orbits
decay, kinetic energy is lost... No mass is converted.
On Feb 13, 2016 1:20 PM, "John Clark"  wrote:

> On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Terren Suydam 
> wrote:
>
> ​> ​
>> Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses, which was
>> converted into gravitational waves... how?  Fusion and fission are easy
>> examples of mass to energy conversion - so what's the specific interaction
>> here according to theory?
>>
>
> ​Einstein found in General Relativity a new law of nature, he said it
> takes energy to make gravitational waves and that an accelerating mass
> produces gravitational waves, just as Maxwell said a accelerating charged
> particle makes a electromagnetic wave. Normally this effect is far too
> small to be important and can be ignored, but when it's something as
> massive as a black hole and its vibrating at almost the speed of light as
> it tries to become spherical we now know that gravity waves can not be
> ignored and Einstein was right. General Relativity has passed its most
> stringent test yet and passed it with flying colors!
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[Terren Suydam]

Ahhh, makes sense, you know, in the absurd way that anything in relativity
or QM makes sense.

One more question. A mass is hurtling through space (not in orbit, to keep
things simple). In the mass's frame of reference it has zero kinetic
energy. It is at rest. From the perspective of a nearby planet, the mass
has a certain amount of kinetic energy. Does that mean its mass changes
depending on the frame of reference it is being observed from?

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Brent Meeker  wrote:

> In relativity mass and energy are interchangeable.  For example, most of
> the mass of a proton is in the kinetic energy of the quarks.  When a
> planetary orbit decays (by radiating gravity waves) kinetic energy is lost
> and this shows up as less gravitational mass for the sun/planet system.  So
> mass IS converted.
>
> Brent
>
>
> On 2/13/2016 6:47 PM, Terren Suydam wrote:
>
> Great, but what is the specific way in which mass is converted into the
> energy required to produce gravitational waves?  When planetary orbits
> decay, kinetic energy is lost... No mass is converted.
> On Feb 13, 2016 1:20 PM, "John Clark"  wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Terren Suydam <
>> terren.suy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ​ > ​
>>> Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses, which was
>>> converted into gravitational waves... how?  Fusion and fission are easy
>>> examples of mass to energy conversion - so what's the specific interaction
>>> here according to theory?
>>>
>>
>> ​Einstein found in General Relativity a new law of nature, he said it
>> takes energy to make gravitational waves and that an accelerating mass
>> produces gravitational waves, just as Maxwell said a accelerating charged
>> particle makes a electromagnetic wave. Normally this effect is far too
>> small to be important and can be ignored, but when it's something as
>> massive as a black hole and its vibrating at almost the speed of light as
>> it tries to become spherical we now know that gravity waves can not be
>> ignored and Einstein was right. General Relativity has passed its most
>> stringent test yet and passed it with flying colors!
>>
>>  John K Clark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> "Everything List" group.
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>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[Russell Standish]

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 11:11:05PM -0500, Terren Suydam wrote:
> Ahhh, makes sense, you know, in the absurd way that anything in relativity
> or QM makes sense.
> 
> One more question. A mass is hurtling through space (not in orbit, to keep
> things simple). In the mass's frame of reference it has zero kinetic
> energy. It is at rest. From the perspective of a nearby planet, the mass
> has a certain amount of kinetic energy. Does that mean its mass changes
> depending on the frame of reference it is being observed from?
> 

Yes. Google the term "rest mass", which is instrinsic to the object,
and contrast that with "relativistic mass", which is the measured mass
by an observer travelling at some velocity relative to the object. For
example, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_special_relativity.

Cheers


-- 


Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Senior Research Fellowhpco...@hpcoders.com.au
Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au


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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[Brent Meeker]

Depends on what you mean by "its mass".  As used in particle physics, 
that phrase always refers to the particles rest-mass, which is an 
invariant (the same in any coordinate frame).  But if you think of "its 
mass" as referring to the strength of the body's gravitational field, 
then yes its mass is greater when measured relative to a moving field.  
However, remember that the Lorentz contraction flattens the field along 
the direction of travel, so in passing by its gravitational pull has a 
shorter duration.


Brent

On 2/13/2016 8:11 PM, Terren Suydam wrote:
Ahhh, makes sense, you know, in the absurd way that anything in 
relativity or QM makes sense.


One more question. A mass is hurtling through space (not in orbit, to 
keep things simple). In the mass's frame of reference it has zero 
kinetic energy. It is at rest. From the perspective of a nearby 
planet, the mass has a certain amount of kinetic energy. Does that 
mean its mass changes depending on the frame of reference it is being 
observed from?


On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Brent Meeker > wrote:


In relativity mass and energy are interchangeable.  For example,
most of the mass of a proton is in the kinetic energy of the
quarks. When a planetary orbit decays (by radiating gravity waves)
kinetic energy is lost and this shows up as less gravitational
mass for the sun/planet system.  So mass IS converted.

Brent


On 2/13/2016 6:47 PM, Terren Suydam wrote:


Great, but what is the specific way in which mass is converted
into the energy required to produce gravitational waves?  When
planetary orbits decay, kinetic energy is lost... No mass is
converted.

On Feb 13, 2016 1:20 PM, "John Clark" > wrote:

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Terren Suydam
>wrote:

​ > ​
Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses,
which was converted into gravitational waves... how? 
Fusion and fission are easy examples of mass to energy

conversion - so what's the specific interaction here
according to theory?


​Einstein found in General Relativity a new law of nature, he
said it takes energy to make gravitational waves and that an
accelerating mass produces gravitational waves, just as
Maxwell said a accelerating charged particle makes a
electromagnetic wave. Normally this effect is far too small
to be important and can be ignored, but when it's something
as massive as a black hole and its vibrating at almost the
speed of light as it tries to become spherical we now know
that gravity waves can not be ignored and Einstein was right.
General Relativity has passed its most stringent test yet and
passed it with flying colors!

 John K Clark



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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[Russell Standish]

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 09:47:11PM -0500, Terren Suydam wrote:
> Great, but what is the specific way in which mass is converted into the
> energy required to produce gravitational waves?  When planetary orbits
> decay, kinetic energy is lost... No mass is converted.

Kinetic energy has mass! When the kinetic energy is lost, so is the
system's mass.

Don't be fooled by the fact that the sorts of kinetic energy we
experience on a daily basis has almost immeasurably small mass into
the assumption that kinetic energy has zero mass.


Cheers
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Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Senior Research Fellowhpco...@hpcoders.com.au
Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au


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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[Brent Meeker]

In relativity mass and energy are interchangeable.  For example, most of 
the mass of a proton is in the kinetic energy of the quarks.  When a 
planetary orbit decays (by radiating gravity waves) kinetic energy is 
lost and this shows up as less gravitational mass for the sun/planet 
system.  So mass IS converted.


Brent

On 2/13/2016 6:47 PM, Terren Suydam wrote:


Great, but what is the specific way in which mass is converted into 
the energy required to produce gravitational waves?  When planetary 
orbits decay, kinetic energy is lost... No mass is converted.


On Feb 13, 2016 1:20 PM, "John Clark" > wrote:


On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Terren Suydam
>wrote:

​ > ​
Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses, which
was converted into gravitational waves... how?  Fusion and
fission are easy examples of mass to energy conversion - so
what's the specific interaction here according to theory?


​Einstein found in General Relativity a new law of nature, he said
it takes energy to make gravitational waves and that an
accelerating mass produces gravitational waves, just as Maxwell
said a accelerating charged particle makes a electromagnetic wave.
Normally this effect is far too small to be important and can be
ignored, but when it's something as massive as a black hole and
its vibrating at almost the speed of light as it tries to become
spherical we now know that gravity waves can not be ignored and
Einstein was right. General Relativity has passed its most
stringent test yet and passed it with flying colors!

 John K Clark



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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[Terren Suydam]

I thought the gravitational waves were generated as the black holes rotated
around one another, not (merely) as a consequence of the collision. Also,
what kinds of interactions transfer the energy/mass of the black holes
themselves into gravitational waves?  I wasn't aware that any energy was
"spent" creating a gravitational wave, much less three solar-masses worth,
in this case.



On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 8:23 PM, John Clark  wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Terren Suydam 
> wrote:
>
>
>> ​> ​
>> As amazing as detecting the gravitational waves are, I'm actually more
>> interested in what happens when those two black holes collide... is the
>> resulting explosion entirely contained in the event horizon or is there any
>> possibility that matter/energy can escape due to the high energies involved?
>>
>
> ​It wasn't an explosion if anything it was an implosion and the results
> were not contained within the event horizon, if they were we wouldn't have
> been able to detect it. What we detected was a 36 solar mass black hole
> merging with a 29 solar mass black hole and producing a 62 solar mass black
> hole with the missing 3 solar masses being converted into energy in the
> form of gravitational waves, which is what LIGO saw. It all happened in a
> fifth of a second. If 3 solar masses had been converted to light instead of
> gravitational waves during that fifth of a second it would have been
> brighter than the rest of the universe put together.
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[Terren Suydam]

Thanks John, interesting. Does current theory make any predictions on how
much energy (electro-magnetic and otherwise) actually is produced during
ring-down, despite the inability to observe it due to the event horizon?

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 11:37 AM, John Clark  wrote:

>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:57 AM, Terren Suydam 
> wrote:
>
> ​> ​
>> I thought the gravitational waves were generated as the black holes
>> rotated around one another, not (merely) as a consequence of the collision.
>> Also, what kinds of interactions transfer the energy/mass of the black
>> holes themselves into gravitational waves?
>>
>
> Every time a mass accelerates gravity waves are produced, the greater the
> mass and the faster the acceleration the stronger the wave.
> ​ ​
> Even the Earth produces a very small amount of Gravitational Waves as it
> accelerates in its orbit around the sun, and the energy to produce the
> waves comes from slowing down Earth's orbital speed and the orbit shrinks
> as a result, but not by much. Each year the Earth gets
> ​ ​
> 3.5×10^−13
> ​ ​
> meters
> ​ ​
> closer to the sun
> ​ due to gravity waves​
> , about 1/300 the diameter of a hydrogen atom.
>
> When 2 black holes merge most of the waves
> ​ ​
> are produced
> ​ ​
> in a phase called "ring down"; when they first merge they are irregularly
> shaped but
> ​ ​
> black holes want to be spherical
> ​ ​
> and so start vibrating radically
> ​and that ​
> produces
> ​
>  the most intense gravity waves in the universe
> ​,​
>
> ​but​
> after about a fifth of a second
> ​ ​they
> have stop
> ​ ​
> vibrating
> ​and ​
> got
> ​ten​
> rid of their irregularities and become spherical.
> ​ ​
> It
> took​
> 3 solar masses of energy to produce those gravity waves, if it had been
> light
> ​produced not gravity waves ​
> during that fifth of a second
> ​ it would have been ​
> 50 times brighter than everything else in the observable universe put
> together
> ​.​
>
>
>  John K Clark
>
> --
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[John Clark]

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:57 AM, Terren Suydam 
wrote:

​> ​
> I thought the gravitational waves were generated as the black holes
> rotated around one another, not (merely) as a consequence of the collision.
> Also, what kinds of interactions transfer the energy/mass of the black
> holes themselves into gravitational waves?
>

Every time a mass accelerates gravity waves are produced, the greater the
mass and the faster the acceleration the stronger the wave.
​ ​
Even the Earth produces a very small amount of Gravitational Waves as it
accelerates in its orbit around the sun, and the energy to produce the
waves comes from slowing down Earth's orbital speed and the orbit shrinks
as a result, but not by much. Each year the Earth gets
​ ​
3.5×10^−13
​ ​
meters
​ ​
closer to the sun
​ due to gravity waves​
, about 1/300 the diameter of a hydrogen atom.

When 2 black holes merge most of the waves
​ ​
are produced
​ ​
in a phase called "ring down"; when they first merge they are irregularly
shaped but
​ ​
black holes want to be spherical
​ ​
and so start vibrating radically
​and that ​
produces
​
 the most intense gravity waves in the universe
​,​

​but​
after about a fifth of a second
​ ​they
have stop
​ ​
vibrating
​and ​
got
​ten​
rid of their irregularities and become spherical.
​ ​
It
took​
3 solar masses of energy to produce those gravity waves, if it had been
light
​produced not gravity waves ​
during that fifth of a second
​ it would have been ​
50 times brighter than everything else in the observable universe put
together
​.​


 John K Clark

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

Yeah, I know, but I was wondering if because we are all about photons, 
earth-life, etc; I wondered if we will find interesting things that don't show 
up photometrically, visible light, ultraviolet, infrared, xrays, gamma rays. 
Like a magic gravity telescope that would see something out there in the dark.



-Original Message-
From: Brent Meeker <meeke...@verizon.net>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 11, 2016 11:11 pm
Subject: Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!


The LIGO detects gravitational waves - even from events that produceno 
photons.

Brent


On 2/11/2016 7:28 PM, spudboy100 via  Everything List wrote:


My thought is I wonder if its possible to create some  kind of 
gravitational wave detector that can view objects that  don't produce a lot 
of photons. Maybe there could be structures  that wash out photonically, by 
the background radiation, but spike  big time, as grav waves?
  
  Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
  
  
  -Original Message-
  From: Russell Standish <li...@hpcoders.com.au>
  To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
  Sent: Thu, Feb 11, 2016 05:14 PM
  Subject: Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!
  
  
  Fantastic news!
  
  On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 11:16:57AM -0500, John Clark wrote:
  > On Sept. 14 at 4am the LIGO detector in Livingston Louisiana  
detected a
  > burst of gravitational waves, 7 milliseconds later the LIGO  
detector in
  > Hanford Washington detected the same thing. The possibility  of 
this being
  > due to chance is vanishingly small. What they detected was 2  black 
holes
  > circling each other at 250 times a second, one was 36 times  the 
mass of the
  > sun and the other 29 times. The entire signal only lasted for  a 
fifth of a
  > second.
  > 
  > 
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/12/science/ligo-gravitational-waves-black-holes-einstein.html
  > ​
  > 
  > J​ohn K Clark
  > 
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  Visiting Senior Research Fellow hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
  Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au

  
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[John Clark]

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:59 PM, Terren Suydam 
wrote:

​> ​
> If you were in one of the galaxies involved with the colliding black
> holes, would you be close enough to the gravitational waves to feel them on
> any kind of macroscopic level such as the one we inhabit?
>

Over at the Extropian list Anders Sandberg did a rough calculation and
figured you'd have to be closer than 80,000 miles for it to be lethal to
the human body directly. Granted a thousand times that distance would cause
severe earthquakes, but that's still only 80,000,000 miles, so unless those
two black holes are in your very own solar system and are closer to you
than we are to the sun (and if 2 black holes are that close then you have
severe problems regardless of the gravitational waves) there isn't any
reason to worry about killer gravitational waves.

 John K Clark

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[Brent Meeker]

Two massive bodies orbit one another - the interaction is 
gravitational.  As their positions change, the gravitational field due 
to their mass-energy must change.  But it can't change instantaneously 
at distant points; the change propagates outward at the speed of light.  
This is a wave in the metric of space time and it carries energy.   The 
energy comes from the orbiting bodies mass-energy so the final black 
hole has less mass than the constituents.


Brent

On 2/12/2016 10:00 PM, Terren Suydam wrote:
Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses, which was 
converted into gravitational waves... how? Fusion and fission are easy 
examples of mass to energy conversion - so what's the specific 
interaction here according to theory?


On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 10:49 PM, Brent Meeker > wrote:


The interaction is gravitational. The first experimental evidence
for gravitational waves was the correct derivation of the observed
orbital decay of a double star due to energy radiated as
gravitational waves.

Brent


On 2/12/2016 4:57 AM, Terren Suydam wrote:

I thought the gravitational waves were generated as the black
holes rotated around one another, not (merely) as a consequence
of the collision. Also, what kinds of interactions transfer the
energy/mass of the black holes themselves into gravitational
waves?  I wasn't aware that any energy was "spent" creating a
gravitational wave, much less three solar-masses worth, in this
case.



On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 8:23 PM, John Clark > wrote:

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Terren Suydam
>wrote:

​ > ​
As amazing as detecting the gravitational waves are, I'm
actually more interested in what happens when those two
black holes collide... is the resulting explosion
entirely contained in the event horizon or is there any
possibility that matter/energy can escape due to the high
energies involved?


​It wasn't an explosion if anything it was an implosion and
the results were not contained within the event horizon, if
they were we wouldn't have been able to detect it. What we
detected was a 36 solar mass black hole merging with
a 29 solar mass black hole and producing a 62 solar mass
black hole with the missing 3 solar masses being converted
into energy in the form of gravitational waves, which is what
LIGO saw. It all happened in a fifth of a second. If 3 solar
masses had been converted to light instead of gravitational
waves during that fifth of a second it would have been
brighter than the rest of the universe put together.

 John K Clark
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[Terren Suydam]

Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses, which was
converted into gravitational waves... how?  Fusion and fission are easy
examples of mass to energy conversion - so what's the specific interaction
here according to theory?

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 10:49 PM, Brent Meeker  wrote:

> The interaction is gravitational. The first experimental evidence for
> gravitational waves was the correct derivation of the observed orbital
> decay of a double star due to energy radiated as gravitational waves.
>
> Brent
>
>
> On 2/12/2016 4:57 AM, Terren Suydam wrote:
>
> I thought the gravitational waves were generated as the black holes
> rotated around one another, not (merely) as a consequence of the collision.
> Also, what kinds of interactions transfer the energy/mass of the black
> holes themselves into gravitational waves?  I wasn't aware that any energy
> was "spent" creating a gravitational wave, much less three solar-masses
> worth, in this case.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 8:23 PM, John Clark  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Terren Suydam <
>> terren.suy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> ​ > ​
>>> As amazing as detecting the gravitational waves are, I'm actually more
>>> interested in what happens when those two black holes collide... is the
>>> resulting explosion entirely contained in the event horizon or is there any
>>> possibility that matter/energy can escape due to the high energies involved?
>>>
>>
>> ​It wasn't an explosion if anything it was an implosion and the results
>> were not contained within the event horizon, if they were we wouldn't have
>> been able to detect it. What we detected was a 36 solar mass black hole
>> merging with a 29 solar mass black hole and producing a 62 solar mass black
>> hole with the missing 3 solar masses being converted into energy in the
>> form of gravitational waves, which is what LIGO saw. It all happened in a
>> fifth of a second. If 3 solar masses had been converted to light instead of
>> gravitational waves during that fifth of a second it would have been
>> brighter than the rest of the universe put together.
>>
>>  John K Clark
>>
>> --
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[John Clark]

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Terren Suydam 
wrote:

​>​
> Thanks John, interesting. Does current theory make any predictions on how
> much energy (electro-magnetic and otherwise) actually is produced during
> ring-down, despite the inability to observe it due to the event horizon?
>

​No light or any other form of electromagnetic waves are produced and
that's why  nobody had ever seen it and it was all just theoretical and
nobody knew if it was true, until now. Einstein predicted that when 2 black
holes of those masses  and orbits merged gravitational waves with 3 solar
masses of energy would be produced in a fifth of a second, and that is
exactly what was observed. A better fit between theory and experiment would
be hard to find. Einstein was right yet again, the man was a natural born
winner.

 John K Clark

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[Terren Suydam]

If you were in one of the galaxies involved with the colliding black holes,
would you be close enough to the gravitational waves to feel them on any
kind of macroscopic level such as the one we inhabit?

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:12 PM, John Clark  wrote:

>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Terren Suydam 
> wrote:
>
> ​>​
>> Thanks John, interesting. Does current theory make any predictions on how
>> much energy (electro-magnetic and otherwise) actually is produced during
>> ring-down, despite the inability to observe it due to the event horizon?
>>
>
> ​No light or any other form of electromagnetic waves are produced and
> that's why  nobody had ever seen it and it was all just theoretical and
> nobody knew if it was true, until now. Einstein predicted that when 2 black
> holes of those masses  and orbits merged gravitational waves with 3 solar
> masses of energy would be produced in a fifth of a second, and that is
> exactly what was observed. A better fit between theory and experiment would
> be hard to find. Einstein was right yet again, the man was a natural born
> winner.
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[John Clark]

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 1:25 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

​> ​
> Yeah, I know, but I was wondering if because we are all about photons,
> earth-life, etc; I wondered if we will find interesting things that don't
> show up photometrically, visible light, ultraviolet, infrared, xrays, gamma
> rays. Like a magic gravity telescope that would see something out there in
> the dark.
>

​As far as we know it wouldn't produce any light and even of it did we
wouldn't know where to point the telescope. ​We know it happened 1 and a
quarter billion light years away but LIGO has very poor directional
resolution.

​ John K Clark​

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

I also wonder how long it will take to develop refined gravity detectors and 
what this would uncover? If it takes centuries, wake me up when its over. I 
know we have detected neutrinos for decades, and I don't think any fundamental 
changes in cosmology has occured? Its always the sizzle of the steak that 
attracts attention I reckon.

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


-Original Message-
From: John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Feb 12, 2016 04:19 PM
Subject: Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!





On Fri, 
Feb 12, 2016 at 1:25 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com;>everything-list@googlegroups.com>
 wrote:
​> ​Yeah, I 
know, but I was wondering if because we are all about photons, earth-life, etc; 
I wondered if we will find interesting things that don't show up 
photometrically, visible light, ultraviolet, infrared, xrays, gamma rays. Like 
a magic gravity telescope that would see something out there in the dark.


​As far as we know it wouldn't produce any light and even of it did we 
wouldn't know where to point the telescope. ​We know it happened 1 and a 
quarter billion light years away but LIGO has very poor directional 
resolution.

​ John K 
Clark​

 



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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[Brent Meeker]

The interaction is gravitational. The first experimental evidence for 
gravitational waves was the correct derivation of the observed orbital 
decay of a double star due to energy radiated as gravitational waves.


Brent

On 2/12/2016 4:57 AM, Terren Suydam wrote:
I thought the gravitational waves were generated as the black holes 
rotated around one another, not (merely) as a consequence of the 
collision. Also, what kinds of interactions transfer the energy/mass 
of the black holes themselves into gravitational waves?  I wasn't 
aware that any energy was "spent" creating a gravitational wave, much 
less three solar-masses worth, in this case.




On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 8:23 PM, John Clark > wrote:


On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Terren Suydam
>wrote:

​ > ​
As amazing as detecting the gravitational waves are, I'm
actually more interested in what happens when those two black
holes collide... is the resulting explosion entirely contained
in the event horizon or is there any possibility that
matter/energy can escape due to the high energies involved?


​It wasn't an explosion if anything it was an implosion and the
results were not contained within the event horizon, if they were
we wouldn't have been able to detect it. What we detected was a
36 solar mass black hole merging with a 29 solar mass black
hole and producing a 62 solar mass black hole with the missing 3
solar masses being converted into energy in the form of
gravitational waves, which is what LIGO saw. It all happened in a
fifth of a second. If 3 solar masses had been converted to light
instead of gravitational waves during that fifth of a second it
would have been brighter than the rest of the universe put together.

 John K Clark
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[John Clark]

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Terren Suydam 
wrote:


> ​> ​
> As amazing as detecting the gravitational waves are, I'm actually more
> interested in what happens when those two black holes collide... is the
> resulting explosion entirely contained in the event horizon or is there any
> possibility that matter/energy can escape due to the high energies involved?
>

​It wasn't an explosion if anything it was an implosion and the results
were not contained within the event horizon, if they were we wouldn't have
been able to detect it. What we detected was a 36 solar mass black hole
merging with a 29 solar mass black hole and producing a 62 solar mass black
hole with the missing 3 solar masses being converted into energy in the
form of gravitational waves, which is what LIGO saw. It all happened in a
fifth of a second. If 3 solar masses had been converted to light instead of
gravitational waves during that fifth of a second it would have been
brighter than the rest of the universe put together.

 John K Clark

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[Terren Suydam]

Trying to picture two objects that massive rotating that quickly... wow. As
amazing as detecting the gravitational waves are, I'm actually more
interested in what happens when those two black holes collide... is the
resulting explosion entirely contained in the event horizon or is there any
possibility that matter/energy can escape due to the high energies involved?

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Russell Standish 
wrote:

> Fantastic news!
>
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 11:16:57AM -0500, John Clark wrote:
> > On Sept. 14  at 4am the LIGO detector in Livingston Louisiana detected a
> > burst of gravitational waves, 7 milliseconds later the LIGO detector in
> > Hanford Washington detected the same thing. The possibility of this being
> > due to chance is vanishingly small. What they detected was 2 black holes
> > circling each other at 250 times a second, one was 36 times the mass of
> the
> > sun and the other 29 times. The entire signal only lasted for a fifth of
> a
> > second.
> >
> >
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/12/science/ligo-gravitational-waves-black-holes-einstein.html
> > ​
> >
> > J​ohn K Clark
> >
> > --
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>
> 
> Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
> Principal, High Performance Coders
> Visiting Senior Research Fellowhpco...@hpcoders.com.au
> Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au
>
> 
>
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[Russell Standish]

Fantastic news!

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 11:16:57AM -0500, John Clark wrote:
> On Sept. 14  at 4am the LIGO detector in Livingston Louisiana detected a
> burst of gravitational waves, 7 milliseconds later the LIGO detector in
> Hanford Washington detected the same thing. The possibility of this being
> due to chance is vanishingly small. What they detected was 2 black holes
> circling each other at 250 times a second, one was 36 times the mass of the
> sun and the other 29 times. The entire signal only lasted for a fifth of a
> second.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/12/science/ligo-gravitational-waves-black-holes-einstein.html
> ​
> 
> J​ohn K Clark
> 
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Visiting Senior Research Fellowhpco...@hpcoders.com.au
Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au


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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

My thought is I wonder if its possible to create some kind of gravitational 
wave detector that can view objects that don't produce a lot of photons. Maybe 
there could be structures that wash out photonically, by the background 
radiation, but spike big time, as grav waves?

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


-Original Message-
From: Russell Standish <li...@hpcoders.com.au>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 11, 2016 05:14 PM
Subject: Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!


Fantastic news!

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 11:16:57AM -0500, John Clark wrote:
> On Sept. 14  at 4am the LIGO detector in Livingston Louisiana detected a
> burst of gravitational waves, 7 milliseconds later the LIGO detector in
> Hanford Washington detected the same thing. The possibility of this being
> due to chance is vanishingly small. What they detected was 2 black holes
> circling each other at 250 times a second, one was 36 times the mass of the
> sun and the other 29 times. The entire signal only lasted for a fifth of a
> second.
> 
>  href="http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/12/science/ligo-gravitational-waves-black-holes-einstein.html;
>  
> target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/12/science/ligo-gravitational-waves-black-holes-einstein.html
> ​
> 
> J​ohn K Clark
> 
> -- 
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Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au; 
target="_blank">http://www.hpcoders.com.au


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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

[Brent Meeker]

The LIGO detects gravitational waves - even from events that produce no 
photons.


Brent

On 2/11/2016 7:28 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
My thought is I wonder if its possible to create some kind of 
gravitational wave detector that can view objects that don't produce a 
lot of photons. Maybe there could be structures that wash out 
photonically, by the background radiation, but spike big time, as grav 
waves?


Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


-Original Message-
From: Russell Standish <li...@hpcoders.com.au>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 11, 2016 05:14 PM
Subject: Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!


Fantastic news!

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 11:16:57AM -0500, John Clark wrote:
> On Sept. 14 at 4am the LIGO detector in Livingston Louisiana detected a
> burst of gravitational waves, 7 milliseconds later the LIGO detector in
> Hanford Washington detected the same thing. The possibility of this 
being

> due to chance is vanishingly small. What they detected was 2 black holes
> circling each other at 250 times a second, one was 36 times the mass 
of the
> sun and the other 29 times. The entire signal only lasted for a 
fifth of a

> second.
>
> 
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/12/science/ligo-gravitational-waves-black-holes-einstein.html

> ​
>
> J​ohn K Clark
>
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Visiting Senior Research Fellow hpco...@hpcoders.com.au 
<mailto:hpco...@hpcoders.com.au>

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