Re: Question to Russell
On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 5:42 PM, John Mikes wrote: > > What is " L I F E " in your view? > Do you want examples or definitions? They are no ironclad definitions, they all have something to do with reproduction and in behaving in complex ways, and such definitions work fine for a while, but they all start to break down when you push them to their limits, like when you get to viruses, both biological and computer. But that's OK because we have lots of good examples of life and non-life, and examples are always far more useful than definitions, except maybe in pure mathematics. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Question to Russell
On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 03:51:45PM -0400, John Mikes wrote: > Russell wrote: > > *One of the reasons for studying AL is to get a better handle on what > we mean by "life". Obviously it has something to do with information > processing, emergent phenomena, complex systems and evolution, so all > these topics come under scrutiny. > > I don't think it is as quite a hopeless question as what is > consciousness (or even what is pornography!), but it is still a > difficult beast, and one that will take a few generations more of > scientists before there can be some agreement.* > * > * > I tried to cut out the *sequence*: "first make it artificial THEN get a > handle of what it is". The 'artificial' thought product may not represent > the unknown original. > That doesn't matter. But the process of attempting to build it is bound to refine what we do mean by life. > Then again *'information'* needs better "information" about its > meaning Information is quite a well defined term in information theory. > and > in my vocabulary 'emergent' means something apparent without our knwoledge > HOW it came about. Once we learned the circumstances of occurrence it is no > 'emergent' anymore: it is a product. > That is Ronald's "surprise" test for emergence. I respectfully disagree. > *Evolution* is misunderstood in my agnostic view: if it DOES aim at some > state it is teleological and leads to a God Almighty, the 'know-all > creator' letting the system play astray-mutations to get there. I don't think evolution is teleological. I'm surprised you do. > *Complex > 'systems'* is an oxymoron, if it is 'complex' it is not a 'system' (=fixed > inventory and processing) - it may be an open, unlimited > organization/network. A universal machine does not have a fixed inventory, and I think it definitely counts as a system. > I agree with your 'scrutiny' for all the topics. Hence my question. > > *Conciousness* is different: I found quite different aspects (contents?) to > handle the term according to the 'scientist' using it. I boiled it down to > SOME process, (1992) and identify it as 'response to relations' in the most > general sense .. > (Pornography is different: it is a purely(?) human artifact.) Of course. But then probably so are the other concepts :). > Finally: I would not leave such questions in the hands of (conventional?) > scientists, they are bound to yesterday's knowledge base. > I'll let John Clark respond to this, I think :). > Thanks for reflecting > > John M > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ( > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Russell Standish > wrote: > > > On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 05:42:45PM -0400, John Mikes wrote: > > > Dear Russell, > > > based on my 2-decade long reading of your posts I have a question, if you > > > don't mind: > > > I guess you are still interested in AL, so "L" is includable. > > > What is " L I F E " in your view? > > > > One of the reasons for studying AL is to get a better handle on what > > we mean by "life". Obviously it has something to do with information > > processing, emergent phenomena, complex systems and evolution, so all > > these topics come under scrutiny. > > > > I don't think it is as quite a hopeless question as what is > > consciousness (or even what is pornography!), but it is still a > > difficult beast, and one that will take a few generations more of > > scientists before there can be some agreement. > > > > > you said: biocomplexity, > > > > > > This doesn't sound like me... :( Context? > > > > what raises the > > > question in my mind: wat is that "bio" we know so little about, but speak > > > so much about? I am all for complexity - the infinite one beyond our > > > 'model' we live in and by, of which we have but precious little > > information > > > beyond that model. > > > So do you have a restriction of complexities we should call life? > > > (Then we may try to identify how to reproduce such artificially. Maybe a > > > lot more difficult than identifying AI without a clear definition of > > "I"). > > > > > > John Mikes > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "Everything List" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > > an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > > Principal, High Performance Coders > > Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au > > University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au > > > > --
Re: Question to Russell
Russell wrote: *One of the reasons for studying AL is to get a better handle on what we mean by "life". Obviously it has something to do with information processing, emergent phenomena, complex systems and evolution, so all these topics come under scrutiny. I don't think it is as quite a hopeless question as what is consciousness (or even what is pornography!), but it is still a difficult beast, and one that will take a few generations more of scientists before there can be some agreement.* * * I tried to cut out the *sequence*: "first make it artificial THEN get a handle of what it is". The 'artificial' thought product may not represent the unknown original. Then again *'information'* needs better "information" about its meaning and in my vocabulary 'emergent' means something apparent without our knwoledge HOW it came about. Once we learned the circumstances of occurrence it is no 'emergent' anymore: it is a product. *Evolution* is misunderstood in my agnostic view: if it DOES aim at some state it is teleological and leads to a God Almighty, the 'know-all creator' letting the system play astray-mutations to get there. *Complex 'systems'* is an oxymoron, if it is 'complex' it is not a 'system' (=fixed inventory and processing) - it may be an open, unlimited organization/network. I agree with your 'scrutiny' for all the topics. Hence my question. *Conciousness* is different: I found quite different aspects (contents?) to handle the term according to the 'scientist' using it. I boiled it down to SOME process, (1992) and identify it as 'response to relations' in the most general sense .. (Pornography is different: it is a purely(?) human artifact.) Finally: I would not leave such questions in the hands of (conventional?) scientists, they are bound to yesterday's knowledge base. Thanks for reflecting John M ( On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 05:42:45PM -0400, John Mikes wrote: > > Dear Russell, > > based on my 2-decade long reading of your posts I have a question, if you > > don't mind: > > I guess you are still interested in AL, so "L" is includable. > > What is " L I F E " in your view? > > One of the reasons for studying AL is to get a better handle on what > we mean by "life". Obviously it has something to do with information > processing, emergent phenomena, complex systems and evolution, so all > these topics come under scrutiny. > > I don't think it is as quite a hopeless question as what is > consciousness (or even what is pornography!), but it is still a > difficult beast, and one that will take a few generations more of > scientists before there can be some agreement. > > > you said: biocomplexity, > > > This doesn't sound like me... :( Context? > > what raises the > > question in my mind: wat is that "bio" we know so little about, but speak > > so much about? I am all for complexity - the infinite one beyond our > > 'model' we live in and by, of which we have but precious little > information > > beyond that model. > > So do you have a restriction of complexities we should call life? > > (Then we may try to identify how to reproduce such artificially. Maybe a > > lot more difficult than identifying AI without a clear definition of > "I"). > > > > John Mikes > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- > > > > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > Principal, High Performance Coders > Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au > University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/e
Re: Question to Russell
I agree -- before we can begin to tackle the meaning of consciousness, the "self", "self-awareness", "free will" and so on we need to get on firmer ground of what we mean by even more fundamental things such as the meaning of "life" and of "living". Only when we have a much better understanding of both our own DNA life and of the abstract fundamentals of any life -- no matter what physical underpinning it is based on. But it is more fun to race ahead and try to tackle the ineffable :) -Chris From: Russell Standish To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 5:19 PM Subject: Re: Question to Russell On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 05:42:45PM -0400, John Mikes wrote: > Dear Russell, > based on my 2-decade long reading of your posts I have a question, if you > don't mind: > I guess you are still interested in AL, so "L" is includable. > What is " L I F E " in your view? One of the reasons for studying AL is to get a better handle on what we mean by "life". Obviously it has something to do with information processing, emergent phenomena, complex systems and evolution, so all these topics come under scrutiny. I don't think it is as quite a hopeless question as what is consciousness (or even what is pornography!), but it is still a difficult beast, and one that will take a few generations more of scientists before there can be some agreement. > you said: biocomplexity, This doesn't sound like me... :( Context? what raises the > question in my mind: wat is that "bio" we know so little about, but speak > so much about? I am all for complexity - the infinite one beyond our > 'model' we live in and by, of which we have but precious little information > beyond that model. > So do you have a restriction of complexities we should call life? > (Then we may try to identify how to reproduce such artificially. Maybe a > lot more difficult than identifying AI without a clear definition of "I"). > > John Mikes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Question to Russell
On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 05:42:45PM -0400, John Mikes wrote: > Dear Russell, > based on my 2-decade long reading of your posts I have a question, if you > don't mind: > I guess you are still interested in AL, so "L" is includable. > What is " L I F E " in your view? One of the reasons for studying AL is to get a better handle on what we mean by "life". Obviously it has something to do with information processing, emergent phenomena, complex systems and evolution, so all these topics come under scrutiny. I don't think it is as quite a hopeless question as what is consciousness (or even what is pornography!), but it is still a difficult beast, and one that will take a few generations more of scientists before there can be some agreement. > you said: biocomplexity, This doesn't sound like me... :( Context? what raises the > question in my mind: wat is that "bio" we know so little about, but speak > so much about? I am all for complexity - the infinite one beyond our > 'model' we live in and by, of which we have but precious little information > beyond that model. > So do you have a restriction of complexities we should call life? > (Then we may try to identify how to reproduce such artificially. Maybe a > lot more difficult than identifying AI without a clear definition of "I"). > > John Mikes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
