Re: Re: The best of all possible Worlds.

2013-01-08 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerdb  

Picking and choosing can sometimes be incorrect. 

When you try to find the meaning of a verse from the Bible, 
ideally you should find the meaning from the Bible as a whole. 

[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
1/8/2013  
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen 
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From: meekerdb  
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Time: 2013-01-07, 17:56:48 
Subject: Re: The best of all possible Worlds. 


On 1/7/2013 4:43 AM, Roger Clough wrote:  
Hi meekerdb   

There are some errors in fact in the Bible, but IMHO it is  
inerrant with regard to faith and practice. By inerrant, I mean that 
it is completely consistent along those lines.  You have to take it as 
a whole. 

By which you really mean that one must use their own moral sense to pick and 
choose a reasonable subset of ethical advice, which they can then claim that 
God commands. 

Brent 
The Israelites were all waiting anxiously at the foot of the 
mountain, knowing that Moses had had a tough day negotiating with 
God over the Commandments. Finally a tired Moses came into sight. 
I've got some good news and some bad news, folks, he said. The 
good news is that I got Him down to ten. The bad news is that 
adultery's still banned.

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Re: Re: The best of all possible Worlds.

2013-01-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerdb  

There are some errors in fact in the Bible, but IMHO it is 
inerrant with regard to faith and practice. By inerrant, I mean that
it is completely consistent along those lines.  You have to take it as
a whole.

[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
1/7/2013  
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen 
- Receiving the following content -  
From: meekerdb  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2013-01-06, 16:21:42 
Subject: Re: The best of all possible Worlds. 


On 1/6/2013 12:57 PM, Roger Clough wrote: 
 Hi meekerdb 
 
 Sorry, I obviously missed the point of your quote from Matthew. 
 What is your point ? 

That the Christian Bible, and by extension fundamentalist Christianity, is a 
cartoonish  
world view which no thinking person would take as a guide for morality or 
ethics. 

Brent 

 
 [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
 1/6/2013 
 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen 
 - Receiving the following content - 
 From: meekerdb 
 Receiver: everything-list 
 Time: 2013-01-06, 14:15:41 
 Subject: Re: The best of all possible Worlds. 
 
 
 On 1/6/2013 5:24 AM, Roger Clough wrote: 
 Hi meekerdb 
 
 I'm sorry that Christ does not measure up to your liberal standards. 
 I should have thought maintaining love and respect for one's family would be 
 a 
 conservative family value. 
 
 Brent 
 
 
 Matthew 
 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send 
 peace, but a sword. 
 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the 
 daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in 
 law. 
 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 
 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and 
 he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 
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Re: Re: The best of all possible Worlds.

2013-01-06 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerdb  

I'm sorry that Christ does not measure up to your liberal standards. 


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
1/6/2013  
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen 
- Receiving the following content -  
From: meekerdb  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2013-01-05, 15:32:05 
Subject: Re: The best of all possible Worlds. 


On 1/5/2013 6:01 AM, Roger Clough wrote:  
Hi meekerdb   

You say, 

It's that cartoon known as the Christian Bible.   

Brent   
For Christians, it's far more important to believe in a god than to   
determine the accuracy of the hypothesis. That's why they had only two   
significant publications, and the most recent one is 2000 years old.   
  --- Ludwig Krippahl, biologist 
  
Those are baseless insults, typical of liberalspeak. 
If they have a basis,let's hear it. Otherwise you're just spouting  
baseless prejudices. 

Matthew 
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send 
peace, but a sword. 
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the 
daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he 
that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.  
... 
25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye 
cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 
25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave 
me no drink: 
25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: 
sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 
25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an 
hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did 
not minister unto thee? 
25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye 
did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 
25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous 
into life eternal. 

Luke 
19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, 
bring hither, and slay them before me.  


Thessalonians 
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be 
revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey 
not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the 
Lord, and from the glory of his power;  

Brent 
The Christian god can easily be 
pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past 
civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, 
vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, 
three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of 
people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools 
and hypocrites.  
--- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Re: The best of all possible Worlds.

2013-01-03 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King 

1) I dobn't know what you mean by subjective. Things happen.
Crap happens.

2). You seem to have some incorrect ideas about Leibniz.

Leibniz in no way pretended that he created a perfect system.
The world is far from perfect. All L  did suggest is that God did 
the best job he could, considering the constraints of contingency. Consider
volcanoes and the tectonic plates, the sometimes evil tendencies of man.
And our perceptions, for excample, are distorted. Our hearts
are distorted. And bad things can happen, there's nothing to prevent 
in a contingent world .


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
1/3/2013 
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen
- Receiving the following content - 
From: Stephen P. King 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2013-01-02, 13:37:05
Subject: Re: The best of all possible Worlds.


On 1/2/2013 8:21 AM, Roger Clough wrote:



I forgot add that that's why Leibniz called this
The best of all possible Worlds.

Why bad things happen to good people--Leibniz's Theodicy

 As to tornadoes, there are various views, usually 
part of Theodicies. Here's the view I prefer, that of my 
mentor, Leibniz, explained in his Theodicy, which 
Voltaire took up in his unfair and totally misinformed
criticism, the novel Candide. 

According to Leibniz, there are two forms of being, that 
belonging to perfect, timeless, necessary reason, assigned to Heaven 
or Platonia, and that of contingent, time-dependent and therefore
undependable reason and perfection (that down here, on earth). 
Scientific theory deals with the former, where time is reversible, 
and scientific experimentation, with the latter, done down here, 
in the world, where time is not reversible. 

Leibniz's view, in his theodicy , which I hold to also, is that 
the world down here, that God created, is necessarily imperfect, 
 so, as they say crap happens. This is because things can't be good 
everywhere at the same time. Thus evil and catastrophes are
probabilistic. 

Leibniz's theodicy ior justification for God is that God, being good, 
does the best that he can with the imperfect, partly evuil world
he has to work with. That is why pray for God to deliver us
from evil in the Lord's prayer. But we also say thy will be done.


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
1/2/2013 
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen 

-- 

Dear Roger,

Ultimately, all such measures are subjective, being the result of some 
arbitrary cut off here and boundary condition there. Most of all, the effects 
of the finiteness of our condition cannot ever be underestimated. One thing 
that Leibniz failed to comprehend is the cost of the perfect system that he 
attempted to construct. Voltair saw it but only as a weakness to lampoon 
Leibniz' with and not to correct, as he and the rest of the classicists where 
loath to give up the Assumption of the voyeuristic observer that can somehow 
see and measure all things. Hidden in their thinking was a need to morally 
justify the inequality between men that their system supported.
We live in a world of costs and scarcity. There is no such thing as a free 
lunch, but if we work hard we can make a cheaper lunch. ;-)
   


-- 
Onward!

Stephen

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Re: Re: The best of all possible Worlds.

2013-01-03 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King  

I suppose that you're referring to the cpre-established perfect harmony, 
which makes it seem as if everything we do is determined (by God). 

IMHO that only means that God knows what we will do, not
make the decision for us.


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
1/3/2013  
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen 
- Receiving the following content -  
From: Stephen P. King  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2013-01-03, 09:49:53 
Subject: Re: The best of all possible Worlds. 


On 1/3/2013 9:30 AM, Roger Clough wrote: 

Hi Stephen P. King  

1) I dobn't know what you mean by subjective. Things happen. 
Crap happens. 

2). You seem to have some incorrect ideas about Leibniz. 

Leibniz in no way pretended that he created a perfect system. 
The world is far from perfect. All L  did suggest is that God did  
the best job he could, considering the constraints of contingency. Consider 
volcanoes and the tectonic plates, the sometimes evil tendencies of man. 
And our perceptions, for excample, are distorted. Our hearts 
are distorted. And bad things can happen, there's nothing to prevent  
in a contingent world . 


Hi Roger, 

The entire idea that our lives are in the hands of some ultimate conscious 
and controlling agent is a relic of the days of monarchies. The ability to 
think for ourselves, make choices and learn form consequences is better, IMHO. 



[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
1/3/2013  
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen 
- Receiving the following content -  
From: Stephen P. King  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2013-01-02, 13:37:05 
Subject: Re: The best of all possible Worlds. 


On 1/2/2013 8:21 AM, Roger Clough wrote: 



I forgot add that that's why Leibniz called this 
The best of all possible Worlds. 

Why bad things happen to good people--Leibniz's Theodicy 

 As to tornadoes, there are various views, usually  
part of Theodicies. Here's the view I prefer, that of my  
mentor, Leibniz, explained in his Theodicy, which  
Voltaire took up in his unfair and totally misinformed 
criticism, the novel Candide.  

According to Leibniz, there are two forms of being, that  
belonging to perfect, timeless, necessary reason, assigned to Heaven  
or Platonia, and that of contingent, time-dependent and therefore 
undependable reason and perfection (that down here, on earth).  
Scientific theory deals with the former, where time is reversible,  
and scientific experimentation, with the latter, done down here,  
in the world, where time is not reversible.  

Leibniz's view, in his theodicy , which I hold to also, is that  
the world down here, that God created, is necessarily imperfect,  
 so, as they say crap happens. This is because things can't be good  
everywhere at the same time. Thus evil and catastrophes are 
probabilistic.  

Leibniz's theodicy ior justification for God is that God, being good,  
does the best that he can with the imperfect, partly evuil world 
he has to work with. That is why pray for God to deliver us 
from evil in the Lord's prayer. But we also say thy will be done. 


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]  
1/2/2013  
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen  

--  

Dear Roger, 

Ultimately, all such measures are subjective, being the result of some 
arbitrary cut off here and boundary condition there. Most of all, the effects 
of the finiteness of our condition cannot ever be underestimated. One thing 
that Leibniz failed to comprehend is the cost of the perfect system that he 
attempted to construct. Voltair saw it but only as a weakness to lampoon 
Leibniz' with and not to correct, as he and the rest of the classicists where 
loath to give up the Assumption of the voyeuristic observer that can somehow 
see and measure all things. Hidden in their thinking was a need to morally 
justify the inequality between men that their system supported. 
We live in a world of costs and scarcity. There is no such thing as a free 
lunch, but if we work hard we can make a cheaper lunch. ;-) 



--  
Onward! 

Stephen 
- 



--  
Onward! 

Stephen

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Re: Re: The best of all possible Worlds.

2013-01-03 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerdb  

The world down here isn't heaven, yes, 
but there still is a Heaven for the afterlife, IMHO. 


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
1/3/2013  
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen 
- Receiving the following content -  
From: meekerdb  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2013-01-02, 14:31:51 
Subject: Re: The best of all possible Worlds. 


On 1/2/2013 5:21 AM, Roger Clough wrote:  
Leibniz's view, in his theodicy , which I hold to also, is that  
the world down here, that God created, is necessarily imperfect,  
 so, as they say crap happens. This is because things can't be good  
everywhere at the same time. 

So there is no heaven. 

Brent

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Re: Re: The best of all possible Worlds.

2013-01-03 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerb, 

Heaven is not part of contingent creation, so your statement 
that there is no heaven is illogical or irrelevant. 

[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
1/4/2013  
Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen 
- Receiving the following content -  
From: Bruno Marchal  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2013-01-03, 12:23:33 
Subject: Re: The best of all possible Worlds. 




On 02 Jan 2013, at 20:31, meekerdb wrote: 


On 1/2/2013 5:21 AM, Roger Clough wrote:  
Leibniz's view, in his theodicy , which I hold to also, is that  
the world down here, that God created, is necessarily imperfect,  
 so, as they say crap happens. This is because things can't be good  
everywhere at the same time. 

So there is no heaven. 



There might be a heaven, but the price is that there might be a hell too, and a 
complex Mandelbrot like boundary between.  


Bruno 







Brent 



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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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